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Biological males in women's sport

24567…44

Comments

  • #52
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    heres a link to the wrestling story https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/feb/25/mack-beggs-transgender-wrestler-wins-texas-girls-h/

    I believe wrestling is actually mixed gender up until high school, which makes sense as testosterone takes over by then and males take a giant leap physically


  • #53
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,358 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    david75 wrote: »
    OP. From this and your other posts today it seems you either have some deep seated issues and need to talk to yourself or come out as trans, and get over it or just admit you’re a bot and a dick.

    What are you talking about? Yes I'm a bot who signed up 8 years ago and I've been waiting for this day ever since


  • #54
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    todders wrote: »
    Studies you've read and verified separately to this one article?

    Can you refute mens and womens records being out of sync?


  • #55
    Irish Guitarist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,736 ✭✭✭Irish Guitarist




    There's another video about this that I can't find now. There was someone being interviewed on New Zealand news about this person. He said something about how unfair it was that a seven foot transgender man beat these women. The female interviewer said something like "and he beat them by a mile" as if it was a great accomplishment.

    It made me think of this. "It was a contest for children". "Yeah and Homer beat their brains out".



  • #56
    koumi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 646 ✭✭✭koumi


    Tenigate wrote: »
    Sorry, but I don't know you and didnt recognise the username.

    My previous trans post you're referring to was not about transgenders. It was about trans species, race and age.

    And yep.. my particular cause is a conservative viewpoint that respects women.
    I hardly expect you to be truthful, however as long as you are aware I'm glad you respect women, as a woman I appreciate it.


  • #57
    kumate_champ07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,150 ✭✭✭kumate_champ07


    one aspect that gives transgender athletes( male to female) an advantage is that mens sports are generally more competitive, they will have gained more experience in their previous gender


  • #58
    iguana
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,916 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    It seems to me that eventually there will have to be separate trans categories. Cis-Men, Cis-Women, Trans-men and Trans-women. It's not a perfect solution but as it stands now neither women nor trans-men have much chance at competing in the two category system. It would also be helpful for sports like mixed doubles ice-dancing as a man and a transwoman pair could struggle to compete against a man and a woman due to differences in weight.


  • #59
    Malayalam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭Malayalam


    Irish Guitarist wrote: »


    There's another video about this that I can't find now. There was someone being interviewed on New Zealand news about this person. He said something about how unfair it was that a seven foot transgender man beat these women. The female interviewer said something like "and he beat them by a mile" as if it was a great accomplishment.

    It made me think of this. "It was a contest for children". "Yeah and Homer beat their brains out".


    She comes across as a really lovely person.
    It's such a damn hard area - individuals should be entitled to express themselves as they please, and respected, and yet so many barriers are being pushed up against that it is mentally hard to adjust.
    My gut tells me there are issues - actual biological science issues, not just the window dressing stuff. But one on one with genuine individuals like that weight lifter it is difficult to be dogmatic.


  • #60
    koumi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 646 ✭✭✭koumi


    robyntmorton wrote: »
    Are you admitting to a transphobic attack on a footballer? :P (FAO: Mods, I’m joking)

    Sure part of the fun is going up against the bigger player and coming out of it with the ball.

    I like that I once had the ability to be that strong, for all the men wiling to feign some false sense of righteousness about us fragile women, I loved my sports and used be fairly fit. The idea of competing with mtf on the pitch initially was a bit new to me and maybe it did make me want to drive harder and maybe I did feel like she was a threat before I knew her but I can happily attest that it wasn't an issue, at least in terms of ability and yeah maybe that tackle was the point which I got over myself ;)


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  • #61
    Tenigate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Tenigate


    koumi wrote: »
    maybe that tackle was the point which I got over myself ;)

    As a man, was he a good footballer?

    Or would he still have been beaten by a woman?

    Is your argument to abolish gender divisions in sport, or to allow transgenders to compete in the division of their choosing?


  • #62
    robyntmorton
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,263 ✭✭✭robyntmorton


    koumi wrote: »
    I like that I once had the ability to be that strong, for all the men wiling to feign some false sense of righteousness about us fragile women, I loved my sports and used be fairly fit. The idea of competing with mtf on the pitch initially was a bit new to me and maybe it did make me want to drive harder and maybe I did feel like she was a threat before I knew her but I can happily attest that it wasn't an issue, at least in terms of ability and yeah maybe that tackle was the point which I got over myself ;)

    As someone who has been on both sides, I can safely say that the whole fragile woman thing is bull, and may be a way for some people to try and assert dominance where they do not deserve it. Men and women may have strength in different ways, but women are in no way fragile.

    There is always an element of caution involved in the unknown, like playing football against a team with someone who is MtF, but as you have learned, they aren't a threat to be feared. They are just another person enjoying sport, the same as you. Okay, they might be a bit bigger, but some people are.

    These people, myself included, just want to go about their lives and be treated as the woman/man they are, including enjoying their sport, be it football, or cycling, or whatever. For the normal person playing a game of football, yeah it's a competition, and you want to go out there and win, but it is not the be all and end all if you win and lose, as long as you are enjoying it and seeing the benefits. Sport really should be for all.

    The OP though is referring to elite sport - the top level where mere fractions separates the gold medals and massive paydays from the also rans. I can understand a degree of concern, and there needing to be rules in place to stop any otherwise mediocre athlete from deciding that they don't want to be an also ran, declare as female, and decimate the field, just for the sake of winning. The rules are based on an inexact scientific basis, mainly due to the lack of data. As more data becomes available, the rules can and may be changed, but the rules need to be fair to all, not to create a perfectly level playing field, as that removes the skill and training from something, but level enough that anyone who is willing to put the time and effort in to perfecting their skill, trans or cis, has a chance of winning.


  • #63
    Irish Guitarist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,736 ✭✭✭Irish Guitarist


    Malayalam wrote: »
    She comes across as a really lovely person.
    It's such a damn hard area - individuals should be entitled to express themselves as they please, and respected, and yet so many barriers are being pushed up against that it is mentally hard to adjust.
    My gut tells me there are issues - actual biological science issues, not just the window dressing stuff. But one on one with genuine individuals like that weight lifter it is difficult to be dogmatic.

    I don't care how lovely 'she' is. It's an extremely unfair advantage. I don't care what anyone says, if a woman and a man in normal health do the same amount of weight training the man will be far stronger than the woman. This person has lifted weights as a man for years. Taking some drugs to reduce testosterone doesn't change that. I feel sorry for the women who probably spent their adult lives training for this and then end up competing against a seven foot tall behemoth. Their right to express themselves is just as important.


  • #64
    Malayalam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭Malayalam


    Irish Guitarist wrote: »
    I don't care how lovely 'she' is. It's an extremely unfair advantage. I don't care what anyone says, if a woman and a man in normal health do the same amount of weight training the man will be far stronger than the woman. This person has lifted weights as a man for years. Taking some drugs to reduce testosterone doesn't change that. I feel sorry for the women who probably spent their adult lives training for this and then end up competing against a seven foot tall behemoth. Their right to express themselves is just as important.

    I can understand your point of view too. My daughter is in MMA at a national level, and having seen some pics of the Texas wrestling champ Mack Beggs I would be pretty pissed off on the sidelines at her matches if the odds were not even, so to speak.

    That's a reason why I would like the science to be clear - and not for the whole area to simply be based one way or another on ideology. The science is not clear yet, in my opinion - so we are in a time of flux and difficulty.


  • #65
    robyntmorton
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,263 ✭✭✭robyntmorton


    Bluewolf, and those who may be interested. I'm still looking for the first hand source for this, but taken from a Denver Post article about Bearden:
    USA Cycling was one of the first national governing bodies to embrace the new policy, thanks in part to Bearden’s help. She had the science to support the new rules.

    As an elite male racer, she had regular benchmarks measuring her power and lactate threshold. After more than two years of blocking testosterone and boosting estrogen, her wattage output has dropped by 11.4 percent. That mirrors the performance gap between top-tier male and female athletes.

    They also give this link to the Journal of Sporting Cultures and Identities, which if a study of MtF runners, and displays similar results.


  • #66
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,597 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    sports should be segregated by sex, not by gender. If they have a Y chromosome then they have to compete in the male category, otherwise, it's female.

    Will some people be offended? Probably, but are some people offended when they have to compete in a lower grade to what they think they should be competing in, or in a higher weight class...?

    I have absolutely no problem with someone who was born transgender and is transitioning to his/her identified gender if they are genuine and are accommodating to others to allow us to identify them in the correct way, but there a very small but very vocal group of people who are self obsessed attention seekers who claim to identify as a different gender but still choose to dress and act and look like their born sex, and yet insist that others call them a different gender to what they outwardly display, they can feck off.

    If you do have a 'gender fluid' situation going on, then you shouldn't care what gender people call you, because sometimes they'll be right, and sometimes they'll be wrong. Just get over it or seek some kind of help to assist you in coming to terms with the fact that anyone who constantly changes who they are on a fundamental basis is never going to fit in outside of a very close group of friends who know your situation intimately. How can you expect people to like you for 'who you are' when you change who you are every other day and get mad at others for not noticing.


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  • #67
    Tenigate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Tenigate


    Malayalam wrote: »
    That's a reason why I would like the science to be clear - and not for the whole area to simply be based one way or another on ideology. The science is not clear yet, in my opinion - so we are in a time of flux and difficulty.

    The social science is murky.

    How's this for science.

    "Males have one Y chromosome and one X chromosome, while females have two X chromosomes. In mammals, the Y chromosome contains a gene, SRY, which triggers embryonic development as a male."

    If you have a Y chromosome, you should not be allowed to compete in women's events. Without prejudice. Men with Y chromosomes. Women with Y chromosomes. Intersex with Y chromosomes. Even people with Klinefelter syndrome. Doesn't matter.


  • #68
    robyntmorton
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,263 ✭✭✭robyntmorton


    Wow. Just Wow. *applauds*

    For someone who respects women (your words), you have no problem with telling biological women they have to be a nobody in the mens category, because of a genetic abnormality (something which they can absolutely not be held responsible for). That's progressive right there.

    If, in some twisted dystopian future, you somehow rise to power, I'm leaving the planet, by any means.


  • #69
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Malayalam wrote: »
    This situation was always going to arise. It is a clear demonstration of the difficulties in real time of a modern ideology based in denying the biological basis of gender. By that I mean gender at the X and Y chromosone cellular level. There will be many more real time situations when the ideology meets the trickiness of gendered life and causes problems, like in women's prisons, women's shelters, women's changing rooms, and so on. It will be interesting to watch. As far as I can see right now women's sport is over. I have read the research about hormones negating birth gender advantage - I don't believe it, not from the physiques I am seeing. Trans Female to Male will rarely best a birth male. Trans Male to Female is very likely to best a birth female in most sports. Females from birth will simply have to remove themselves from the arena to avoid injury at the very least.

    The crazy thing is in stating my opinion thus I have probably offended trans-activists and supporters so deeply on many levels, and will be called trans-phobic and a hate-speaker, and that is not my intention at all. I am simply reporting how I see it on a simple physical, biological level.

    I was lost by the third line, but you might be able to answer me this simple question (relevant today with The Beast & Storm Emma visiting);

    If/when a snowman melts, is he (or it ) then gender fluid?.


  • #70
    Tenigate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Tenigate


    robyntmorton wrote: »
    Wow. Just Wow. *applauds*

    For someone who respects women (your words), you have no problem with telling biological women they have to be a nobody in the mens category, because of a genetic abnormality (something which they can absolutely not be held responsible for). That's progressive right there..


    Wut?

    I didn't say that. I said genetic males shouldn't compete in female categories. Just like genetic females shouldn't compete in male categories.

    I'm not trying to be progressive. :confused:


  • #71
    Your Face
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,275 ✭✭✭Your Face


    Ajsoprano wrote: »
    I’d stay away from this thread. The cards will fly no matter what happens.
    I’ve probably already said too much. I’m out of here.

    Yeah but theyll smell the cigerettes off us when we come back in.


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  • #72
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,597 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    robyntmorton wrote: »
    Wow. Just Wow. *applauds*

    For someone who respects women (your words), you have no problem with telling biological women they have to be a nobody in the mens category, because of a genetic abnormality (something which they can absolutely not be held responsible for). That's progressive right there.

    If, in some twisted dystopian future, you somehow rise to power, I'm leaving the planet, by any means.

    Sh1t happens. Elite sport can be a cruel game but there needs to be a clear demarkation between the categories. Is it unfair that a dwarf can't play basketball at a high level, or someone who was born blind can't be a formula 1 driver?

    It takes genetic freaks to excel at many sports, people who have got a good genetic fit to their sport can win while others struggle to perform.

    And then there are all the other unfair advantages that some get over others, some people happen to be born with access to a velodrome and the resources to train in that sport. Others get given a hurley and sent out to train in the rain even if they have no natural ability in field sports.

    Elite sports are about high performance within strict clear parameters. Classes are defined by weight, or by sex, or by a position on a team sport that requires unique physical attributes. The road to the olympics is paved with hard working athletes that were just not tall enough or supple enough, or too injury prone to make it to the top of the podium


  • #73
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 7,004 ✭✭✭conorhal


    I thing Bearing succinctly covers the issue.



  • #74
    Tenigate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Tenigate


    conorhal wrote: »
    I thing Bearing succinctly covers the issue.

    Hercules .. i mean Hannah.. is pretty hunky. Height 190 cm Weight 100 kg. Big schlong -well, assuming everything is in proportion. I bet her teammates enjoy hitting the showers.


  • #75
    Ken.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,898 ✭✭✭✭Ken.


    Mod- Thread locked for a mod review. Give us a little time to discuss this. If there is no update by noon today pm me personally.

    Quick update- To my mind and this is a personal opinion without talking to the other mods this post is where the thread should have ended

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106292898&postcount=12

    robyntmorton
    In this case, it was not 3 weeks and suddenly there’s a man competing in women’s cycling. She was required to meet requirements for testosterone levels over a minimum of 12 months before she could make the switch. This is in line with standard rules for UCI sanctioned events, and there are others who have done this before. Further MtF trans athletes tend to be paranoid about making sure they are within the rules, as a single failed test for testosterone can give a hefty 2 year ban.

    She complied with the rules, was allowed to compete within those rules, and this time won.

    If a question must be asked, it is whether the rules are correct or need to be tweaked? It is very difficult to do scientific testing on this though, for the simple reason of there being so few transgender elite athletes.


  • #76
    Ken.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,898 ✭✭✭✭Ken.


    Mod-Thread reopened. Be respectful if you are debating please.


  • #77
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,358 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Here is another case of a 15 year old high school athlete, who isn't under going any form of hormone therapy, beating girls. Understandably, Everyone is scared to hurt her feelings and is tip toeing around the issue. Yes, everyone agrees that she is a nice person but that's not what sports is about. She is taking titles and maybe in the future even a scholarship away from girls who have trained hard to be the best.

    http://usatodayhss.com/2017/connecticut-transgender-sprinter-andraya-yearwood-wins-two-state-titles-amidst-controversy

    If stuff like this continues and discussion is not allowed about how to implement fair policies for everyone then I cant see any other way that womens sports will go than to be completely destroyed from the bottom up.


  • #78
    Hector Bellend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,667 ✭✭✭Hector Bellend


    "Biological males in women's sport"

    In my mind this is translated to

    "Men who couldn't compete at sports with other men so they had the operation to see if they could make it against women"


  • #79
    Malayalam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭Malayalam


    Hector Bellend wrote: »
    "Biological males in women's sport"

    In my mind this is translated to

    "Men who couldn't compete at sports with other men so they had the operation to see if they could make it against women"

    Trans athletes do not require operations to compete, as far as I know. Hormone levels are the deciding factor.


  • #80
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,358 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Hector Bellend wrote: »
    "Biological males in women's sport"

    In my mind this is translated to

    "Men who couldn't compete at sports with other men so they had the operation to see if they could make it against women"


    What operation? There is no requirement to have surgery, just to lower their testosterone levels through hormone treatment. Some people argue that even that shouldn't be necessary and is a violation of their human rights.


  • #81
    Zander Crashing Number
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Zander Crashing Number


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    Here is another case of a 15 year old high school athlete, who isn't under going any form of hormone therapy, beating girls. Understandably, Everyone is scared to hurt her feelings and is tip toeing around the issue. Yes, everyone agrees that she is a nice person but that's not what sports is about. She is taking titles and maybe in the future even a scholarship away from girls who have trained hard to be the best.

    http://usatodayhss.com/2017/connecticut-transgender-sprinter-andraya-yearwood-wins-two-state-titles-amidst-controversy

    If stuff like this continues and discussion is not allowed about how to implement fair policies for everyone then I cant see any other way that womens sports will go than to be completely destroyed from the bottom up.
    The runner up felt she was having an off few days and could have won otherwise though. Seems it wasn't a massive margin?


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  • #82
    Ken.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,898 ✭✭✭✭Ken.


    Mod-Hector Bellend thread banned. Reason-trolling.


  • #83
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,812 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    I only actually read the Mack wrestling story now, I didn't realise that he was originally a girl and wanted to compete in the boys division but wasn't allowed by State law. As for the testosterone difference, maybe they don't test and have an official policy with limits at high school girls level?


  • #84
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Why test testosterone at all. Either divide the sports by biology or gender.


  • #85
    Gbear
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    robyntmorton wrote: »
    Bluewolf, and those who may be interested. I'm still looking for the first hand source for this, but taken from a Denver Post article about Bearden:



    They also give this link to the Journal of Sporting Cultures and Identities, which if a study of MtF runners, and displays similar results.

    That's interesting.

    That raises the question whether power output in cycling can be taken as a proxy for general performance and whether the same would occur in other sports.

    Also, I didn't spot whether the stamina performances also level out. Do they?

    If you look at some other sports like football, the technical ability is far lower among women.
    Then you need to look at if there are other biological differences, perhaps around motor skills, or if they're explained by lower player populations or differences in training.

    It also raises the opposite question why there are so few women in motor sport or other male dominated purely skill based sports. I dunno is there any difference in genders in target shooting or that kind of thing.


  • #86
    currants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 207 ✭✭currants


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    What operation? There is no requirement to have surgery, just to lower their testosterone levels through hormone treatment. Some people argue that even that shouldn't be necessary and is a violation of their human rights.

    Yes, crazy as it seems that is the law in Ireland and there is a vociferous group of trans activists lobbying for children to be allowed access to hormone treatment that will cause irreversible damage to their endocrine systems. Already they are lobbying for "legal recognition for children under 16 as well as the 16-18 yr olds and it looks like they will be getting their way too.

    I don't care what adults do to their bodies, its their business and I fully support recognition of change of gender (but not of a Self identified basis as its far too open to abuse) but we are sleepwalking into this without considering the large number of gay men and women who experience gender confusion as children that is resolved later in their 20's. Parents are being advised to "support" their kids in having hormone treatment during puberty to "block" biological sex characteristics.
    As if wanting your kid to develop in their birth sex before they decide to change it utterly is somehow transphobic. Let your kids dress whatever way they want and love them anyway but don't let a tiny, very vocal minority obsessed with pushing their agenda dictate serious irreversible meds for minors are a normal and acceptable choice for parents to make and if they don't do it they are transphobic.
    The power this lobby group have is scary-they are involved with the HSE in delivering training to GPs FFS. All of this would be fine if they focused on medical transition for adults only but they don't. It appears to be a case of the more the merrier.
    Bear in mind most of the people in paid lobbying work in this area are middle aged and older and haven't experienced the effects hormonal therapy has on adolescent bodies themselves.
    Anyone who isn't 100% supportive of all their aims is labelled "transphobic" or some other insulting term. We will look back at this in amazement in years to come and shake our heads at the stupidity of allowing children access to life altering hormones and worse still, encouraging parents to do so.


  • #87
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,597 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    currants wrote: »
    Yes, crazy as it seems that is the law in Ireland and there is a vociferous group of trans activists lobbying for children to be allowed access to hormone treatment that will cause irreversible damage to their endocrine systems. Already they are lobbying for "legal recognition for children under 16 as well as the 16-18 yr olds and it looks like they will be getting their way too.

    I don't care what adults do to their bodies, its their business and I fully support recognition of change of gender (but not of a Self identified basis as its far too open to abuse) but we are sleepwalking into this without considering the large number of gay men and women who experience gender confusion as children that is resolved later in their 20's. Parents are being advised to "support" their kids in having hormone treatment during puberty to "block" biological sex characteristics.
    As if wanting your kid to develop in their birth sex before they decide to change it utterly is somehow transphobic. Let your kids dress whatever way they want and love them anyway but don't let a tiny, very vocal minority obsessed with pushing their agenda dictate serious irreversible meds for minors are a normal and acceptable choice for parents to make and if they don't do it they are transphobic.
    The power this lobby group have is scary-they are involved with the HSE in delivering training to GPs FFS. All of this would be fine if they focused on medical transition for adults only but they don't. It appears to be a case of the more the merrier.
    Bear in mind most of the people in paid lobbying work in this area are middle aged and older and haven't experienced the effects hormonal therapy has on adolescent bodies themselves.
    Anyone who isn't 100% supportive of all their aims is labelled "transphobic" or some other insulting term. We will look back at this in amazement in years to come and shake our heads at the stupidity of allowing children access to life altering hormones and worse still, encouraging parents to do so.
    I think you should watch the Louis Theroux documentary on transgender kids. There are consequences for these children if they go through puberty as the 'wrong' gender'

    Transgender is definitely a real thing, and if people are clearly identifying as a different gender to their biological sex from a young age then I think we should allow them to transition before puberty. But none of this is really relevant to the topic of biologically male athletes competing in womens sports.

    I think to keep sport as fair as possible, then women's sports should be only for people without a y chromosome. Otherwise, elite sports could become dominated by people who are mentally female but physically male, and that's distorts the competition for physically female athletes.


  • #88
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,597 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Are there any examples of elite female athletes choosing to compete in male categories? Would a transgender female demand to compete in the male sports division even if it meant he would never be competitive or would he hide his gender identity and continue to compete as a female?


  • #89
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,309 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    currants wrote: »
    Yes, crazy as it seems that is the law in Ireland and there is a vociferous group of trans activists lobbying for children to be allowed access to hormone treatment that will cause irreversible damage to their endocrine systems. Already they are lobbying for "legal recognition for children under 16 as well as the 16-18 yr olds and it looks like they will be getting their way too.

    I don't care what adults do to their bodies, its their business and I fully support recognition of change of gender (but not of a Self identified basis as its far too open to abuse) but we are sleepwalking into this without considering the large number of gay men and women who experience gender confusion as children that is resolved later in their 20's. Parents are being advised to "support" their kids in having hormone treatment during puberty to "block" biological sex characteristics.
    As if wanting your kid to develop in their birth sex before they decide to change it utterly is somehow transphobic. Let your kids dress whatever way they want and love them anyway but don't let a tiny, very vocal minority obsessed with pushing their agenda dictate serious irreversible meds for minors are a normal and acceptable choice for parents to make and if they don't do it they are transphobic.
    The power this lobby group have is scary-they are involved with the HSE in delivering training to GPs FFS. All of this would be fine if they focused on medical transition for adults only but they don't. It appears to be a case of the more the merrier.
    Bear in mind most of the people in paid lobbying work in this area are middle aged and older and haven't experienced the effects hormonal therapy has on adolescent bodies themselves.
    Anyone who isn't 100% supportive of all their aims is labelled "transphobic" or some other insulting term. We will look back at this in amazement in years to come and shake our heads at the stupidity of allowing children access to life altering hormones and worse still, encouraging parents to do so.
    Is it legal for children to be given puberty blockers in this country?


  • #90
    pumpkin4life
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭pumpkin4life


    currants wrote: »
    Yes, crazy as it seems that is the law in Ireland and there is a vociferous group of trans activists lobbying for children to be allowed access to hormone treatment that will cause irreversible damage to their endocrine systems. Already they are lobbying for "legal recognition for children under 16 as well as the 16-18 yr olds and it looks like they will be getting their way too.

    I don't care what adults do to their bodies, its their business and I fully support recognition of change of gender (but not of a Self identified basis as its far too open to abuse) but we are sleepwalking into this without considering the large number of gay men and women who experience gender confusion as children that is resolved later in their 20's. Parents are being advised to "support" their kids in having hormone treatment during puberty to "block" biological sex characteristics.
    As if wanting your kid to develop in their birth sex before they decide to change it utterly is somehow transphobic. Let your kids dress whatever way they want and love them anyway but don't let a tiny, very vocal minority obsessed with pushing their agenda dictate serious irreversible meds for minors are a normal and acceptable choice for parents to make and if they don't do it they are transphobic.
    The power this lobby group have is scary-they are involved with the HSE in delivering training to GPs FFS. All of this would be fine if they focused on medical transition for adults only but they don't. It appears to be a case of the more the merrier.
    Bear in mind most of the people in paid lobbying work in this area are middle aged and older and haven't experienced the effects hormonal therapy has on adolescent bodies themselves.
    Anyone who isn't 100% supportive of all their aims is labelled "transphobic" or some other insulting term. We will look back at this in amazement in years to come and shake our heads at the stupidity of allowing children access to life altering hormones and worse still, encouraging parents to do so.

    The other thing that is ignored is that for the vast majority of these kids, it is literally just a phase, in the same way that some teenagers go down the whole "fùck you dad I'm listening to Nirvana and I hate the world!" phase . A phase that will get you in serious shìte in the wrong estate, but a phase regardless.

    I saw the same with my cousin. No bullshìt, highly intelligent kid who gets bored with school and has knackers in his class. He fights back, and the teachers try and stick an aspergers sticker on him. That lad is fine.

    There's this massive push to medicate everything and its pretty fùcked up like.


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  • #91
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    So, there are 2 options.

    No gender discrimination, let everyone compete on the same basis. Males will win everything

    or

    Let them compete on the basis of gender by chromosome, the actual basis of gender


  • #92
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    Gbear wrote: »
    That's interesting.

    That raises the question whether power output in cycling can be taken as a proxy for general performance and whether the same would occur in other sports.

    Also, I didn't spot whether the stamina performances also level out. Do they?

    If you look at some other sports like football, the technical ability is far lower among women.
    Then you need to look at if there are other biological differences, perhaps around motor skills, or if they're explained by lower player populations or differences in training.

    It also raises the opposite question why there are so few women in motor sport or other male dominated purely skill based sports. I dunno is there any difference in genders in target shooting or that kind of thing.
    Men on average possess greater hand eye co ordination and spacial awareness skills.

    It's actually aluded to in that aussie rules video a couple of pages back.


  • #93
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Are there any examples of elite female athletes choosing to compete in male categories? Would a transgender female demand to compete in the male sports division even if it meant he would never be competitive or would he hide his gender identity and continue to compete as a female?

    They can't even compete in sports where mass and muscle don't matter, like darts, snooker, etc


  • #94
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,358 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Akrasia wrote: »
    I think you should watch the Louis Theroux documentary on transgender kids. There are consequences for these children if they go through puberty as the 'wrong' gender'

    Transgender is definitely a real thing, and if people are clearly identifying as a different gender to their biological sex from a young age then I think we should allow them to transition before puberty. But none of this is really relevant to the topic of biologically male athletes competing in womens sports.

    I think to keep sport as fair as possible, then women's sports should be only for people without a y chromosome. Otherwise, elite sports could become dominated by people who are mentally female but physically male, and that's distorts the competition for physically female athletes.

    Puberty blockers have long term physical consequences, infertility being one. Any study that's been done show that the vast majority of children outgrow their gender dysphoria and usually grow up to be "cis" and gay. Not to mention that not going through puberty makes future gender reassignment surgery pretty difficult for trans women if they want to go down that road. Giving these drugs to children is a bad idea and completely unethical but that's another thread in itself


  • #95
    backspin.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭backspin.


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    What operation? There is no requirement to have surgery, just to lower their testosterone levels through hormone treatment. Some people argue that even that shouldn't be necessary and is a violation of their human rights.

    So would a man with naturally low testosterone levels who simply states he is a woman compete too.


  • #96
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,358 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    backspin. wrote: »
    So would a man with naturally low testosterone levels who simply states he is a woman compete too.

    If he says he is a woman then yes


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  • #97
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,309 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    backspin. wrote: »
    So would a man with naturally low testosterone levels who simply states he is a woman compete too.
    No, he would not. According to the IOC, trans women have to declare their gender (at least 4 years) before they can compete. They need to keep within the testosterone guidelines one year before they begin to enter competitions, and all through their sporting career from there on in.

    On the other hand, there are no requirements for trans men to declare gender and they can compete without restriction at any time.


  • #98
    backspin.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭backspin.


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    If he says he is a woman then yes

    So not changing their name, or going through reconstruction surgery or even dressing like a woman they just announce they are a woman (even with the 4 year timeframe) and pass the testosterone test and they are fine to compete as a women. We are in crazy times. Imagine explaining that to someone who died even in the 80's. I'm not sure they would believe things could change so much in such a short time-frame. What will things be like in another 30 years.


  • #99
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,358 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    mzungu wrote: »
    No, he would not. According to the IOC, trans women have to declare their gender (at least 4 years) before they can compete. They need to keep within the testosterone guidelines one year before they begin to enter competitions, and all through their sporting career from there on in.

    On the other hand, there are no requirements for trans men to declare gender and they can compete without restriction at any time.

    The posters question was could a man with low testosterone compete as a woman and the answer is yes he could. If he declares himself a woman and sticks with it for 4 years. If he had testosterone levels within the limit naturally then he wouldn't have to do anything else really would he?


  • #100
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,309 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    The posters question was could a man with low testosterone compete as a woman and the answer is yes he could. If he declares himself a woman and sticks with it for 4 years. If he had testosterone levels within the limit naturally then he wouldn't have to do anything else really would he?
    Was that not more or less what I said? :D The four years was not mentioned in that post so the low testosterone on it's own would not be enough. Hence why I mentioned the four years. Also, there would surely need to be a legal declaration of gender as opposed to saying it in a magazine or wherever. I doubt the whole process is easy. Regardless, in the IOC's eyes it would not be a man competing as the IOC recognise that surgery does not need to take place (the law would recognise that too) to recognise a transition.


  • #101
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,358 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    mzungu wrote: »
    Was that not more or less what I said? :D The four years was not mentioned in that post so the low testosterone on it's own would not be enough. Hence why I mentioned the four years. Also, there would surely need to be a legal declaration of gender as opposed to saying it in a magazine or wherever. I doubt the whole process is easy. Regardless, in the IOC's eyes it would not be a man competing as the IOC recognise that surgery does not need to take place (the law would recognise that too) to recognise a transition.

    According to Wikipedia , nothing legal is required
    In 2015, the IOC modified these guidelines in recognition that legal recognition of gender could be difficult in countries where gender transition is not legal, and also that requiring surgery in otherwise healthy individuals "may be inconsistent with developing legislation and notions of human rights".[7][8] The new guidelines require only that trans woman athletes declare their gender and not change that assertion for four years, and demonstrate a testosterone level of less than 10 nanomoles/liter for at least one year prior to competition and throughout the period of eligibility.


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