Anxicalm

zedhead · 15-09-2020 4:36pm #1

My vet prescribed anxicalm tablets for my dog to help with his anxiety with the fireworks. He has had a very bad reaction to them. I can't seem to find much info on them but when I google it, it seems to be a human medication - diazepam? Has anyone any experience with this and their dog?

DBB · 15-09-2020 9:54pm

Diazepam, aka valium, is a standard anti-anxiety medication for acute phobias, and in the case of dogs, is usually used for fireworks phobia.
A couple of things to note... it is only meant to be used in the short-term, as it acts as a short-term memory-blocker, which is fine over a few hours or days, but not over longer periods. There are other health-related issues with using it in the longer-term.
It is strongly advised that the owner stays with the dog after the meds are given, because although it helps calm most dogs down, some dogs become more anxious and excitable, so it's important to be there to supervise, just in case the dog becomes agitated.
As with many anti-anxiety medications, there can be some disinhibition of behaviours, in other words, the dog can temporarily forget their usual manners and do things they normally wouldn't. This potentially includes aggression, particularly in dogs who are known to be a little antsy in certain situations.
Withdrawal from the drug should be carefully managed with advice from your vet.
I'm assuming that you do the usual other fireworks stuff, such as closing curtains, turning tv/radio up as loud as you can without deafening yourselves or getting complaints from neighbours, giving your dog a safe, cozy den or place to retreat to? I also know some dogs for whom a Thundershirt has made an extraordinary difference for them... I also know dogs that they have no effect on! But... worth a try.

zedhead · 16-09-2020 8:04am

DBB wrote: »

Diazepam, aka valium, is a standard anti-anxiety medication for acute phobias, and in the case of dogs, is usually used for fireworks phobia.
A couple of things to note... it is only meant to be used in the short-term, as it acts as a short-term memory-blocker, which is fine over a few hours or days, but not over longer periods. There are other health-related issues with using it in the longer-term.
It is strongly advised that the owner stays with the dog after the meds are given, because although it helps calm most dogs down, some dogs become more anxious and excitable, so it's important to be there to supervise, just in case the dog becomes agitated.
As with many anti-anxiety medications, there can be some disinhibition of behaviours, in other words, the dog can temporarily forget their usual manners and do things they normally wouldn't. This potentially includes aggression, particularly in dogs who are known to be a little antsy in certain situations.
Withdrawal from the drug should be carefully managed with advice from your vet.
I'm assuming that you do the usual other fireworks stuff, such as closing curtains, turning tv/radio up as loud as you can without deafening yourselves or getting complaints from neighbours, giving your dog a safe, cozy den or place to retreat to? I also know some dogs for whom a Thundershirt has made an extraordinary difference for them... I also know dogs that they have no effect on! But... worth a try.

We started it last night and he did get very hyper and very hungry/food crazy after taking it. The dog had started displaying aggressive tendancies (tried to bite my partner twice in the past 3 days without warning and was almost stalking him after these incidents) in response to the fireworks and so we were trying to address that - are you saying this could cause aggression/make this worse? We've both been completely on edge from the aggression shown and this is what the vet gave us to try and help combat this.

Once he had settled on the couch after this there were fireworks and he did not react to them. and after bed they started again and he slept through them.

Yes we do the usual other things but we were caught outside on a walk when fireworks started early on Friday and so he was very badly affected that night. And on monday when we thought they were over we bought him out for his last wee before bed and just when we went out a few went off in the distance.

DBB · 16-09-2020 8:10am

Yes, there is a risk that aggressive behaviours can worsen with most psychoactive meds, at least until the sedative effect kicks in, in the case of Diazepam. So, you've noted that your dog gets restless for a while after dosage... I'd suggest you leave him be during this time, until he settles. In other words, I would not be trying to comfort him with hugs, pets, treats given from the hand, or any other close contact.
What were the circumstances leading up to the bites?

zedhead · 16-09-2020 8:19am

DBB wrote: »

Yes, there is a risk that aggressive behaviours can worsen with most psychoactive meds, at least until the sedative effect kicks in, in the case of Diazepam. So, you've noted that your dog gets restless for a while after dosage... I'd suggest you leave him be during this time, until he settles. In other words, I would not be trying to comfort him with hugs, pets, treats given from the hand, or any other close contact.
What were the circumstances leading up to the bites?

He was completely underfoot when he was restless as I was making dinner and he was desperately trying to get to the food, which he has never really done before (sometimes he tries his luck but the back command or telling him to go to bed gets him out of the cooking area). Definitely did not try to pet or comfort him though - i did try his usual evening training before feeding and maybe I should do that before I give him the medication tonight.

The first one we were all on the couch and my partner was petting him. He was awake not asleep and he had been petting him as normal for a little while. He was not showing any signs of discomfort and seemed completely relaxed and then all of a sudden he went for his face. He made contact but it was not a full on bite - no puncture/broken skin and only a very small red mark. My partner got a fright but did not shout at the dog, just got up and went to bed and I went through the normal bed time routine with the dog and it was fine.

Then on monday he had fed him with his treat ball (part of training is to try and make him work for his food). Usually if he loses interest one of us will gently nudge it with our foot, and he tried to do that and the dog snapped at his foot. We took this as a warning to leave his food alone so my partner left the room calmly. About 10 minutes later after the dog had finished eating and was just pottering around my partner got up to put something away in the kitchen and the dog went for his leg when he was walking by. Not a snap/warning like before - did make contact but not a full on bite. After this the dog started stalking my partner, staring and pacing around him and super reactive to any movement. So I sat with the dog to allow my partner to leave the room to allow him to decompress.

DBB · 16-09-2020 8:33am

I think you've only had this dog a short time, yes?
I'm always a little wary of dogs that we don't know inside-out being up on the couch being petted a lot... it's a scenario in which a lot of dogs snap or bite... they almost always give some level if warning, but it can be very subtle and fleeting. It's almost like they're happy being petted, but only up to a point, at which stage they've had enough and want to be left alone. In a scenario where everyone is on the sofa, the dog feels somewhat caught out by not being able to take a step away from a situation he's now uncomfortable in. On the other hand, the human is often relaxed, petting the dog whilst watching TV or whatever, and not fully tuned into the fact that the dog has just given a sign that he's had enough of the petting.
If your dog is already on edge from the fireworks, he's more likely to be feeling on more of a knife-edge than usual.
I would be a little cautious that the behaviours you've described are coincidentally associated with fireworks. The period of time you've had him coincides with the time frame in which new dogs (with unknown hisrories esp on the biting front) start to exhibit problem behaviours as they get more settled and less inhibited in their new home, fireworks or not... these problem behaviours would very much include food/toy guarding, and limited tolerance of petting whilst resting. If the fireworks are coincidental, then the problem would be expected to persist after Halloween (though there seems to be an extraordinary lead-up and availability of fireworks this year in particular).

zedhead · 16-09-2020 8:42am

DBB wrote: »

I think you've only had this dog a short time, yes?
I'm always a little wary of dogs that we don't know inside-out being up on the couch being petted a lot... it's a scenario in which a lot of dogs snap or bite... they almost always give dome level if warning, but it can be very subtle and fleeting. It's almost like they're happy being petted, but only up to a point, at which stage they've had enough and want to be left alone. In a scenario where everyone is on the sofa, the dog feels somewhat caught out by not being able to take a step away from a situation he's now uncomfortable in. On the other hand, the human is often relaxed, petting the dog whilst watching TV or whatever, and not fully tuned into the fact that the dog has just given a sign that he's had enough of the petting.
If your dog is already on edge from the fireworks, he's more likely to be feeling on more of a knife-edge than usual. I would be a little cautious that the behaviours you've described are coincidentally associated with fireworks. The period of time you've had him coincides with the time frame in which new dogs start to exhibit problem behaviours as they get more settled and less inhibited in their new home, fireworks or not. If the fireworks are coincidental, then the problem would be expected to persist after Halloween (though there seems to be an extraordinary lead-up and availability of fireworks this year in particular).

This is what concerns me. He has also in the past week started reacting to some people while on walks. The vet, our trainer and the rescue all seem to think its directly related to the fireworks - as well as a behaviourist I called to try and book an appointment. She said there was no point in trying until after halloween as its too late to desensitize to the fireworks and we wont get far while he is agitated. She was very nice and gave me lots of advice for the reactivity to try in the mean time.

The dog is usually incredibly placid, even the vet commented about how tolerant he was of her checking him physically - and it did seem very out of character what I said. There have been a few times where he has gotten something into his mouth on our walk before i had a chance to use the leave it command and he will let me pull it out of his mouth with my hands without any sort of aggression. He also does not enjoy being showered but will not snap or bite while we are washing him. He shows a little bit of resource guarding with some of his toys which we are working on. He is so anxious though and finds it difficult to calm and settle. The rescue is concerned he is not suited to city living and a country home may be better for him which absolutely breaks my heart to hear.

However if the aggression does escalate further I am really not sure I am equipped to handle it, my partner is calmer about it in general - but I am quite stressed by the whole thing which i know is not helping.

DBB · 16-09-2020 9:19am

I've just read your previous posts about him. He's already reactive towards other dogs. He's a terrier x... many terriers can switch from fine to fiery in the blink of an eye... it's part of what being a terrier is all about. So, I suspect that reactivity of his has a sizeable genetic component, and you're now seeing it generalising.
But the bit that piqued my interest in your previous posts is that he was surrendered for biting a child?
Now... hear me out here... in my experience, people who need to surrender a dog because it has bitten someone, very often downplay things, and don't always divulge other instances of near-misses, snaps, or growls. They may not divulge such things on purpose, because they just want the dog gone, or they may genuinely not have attributed enough significance to previous near-misses. When taking in a dog with any sort of bite history, the rescue needs to ask some very specific questions in order to understand what exactly is going on. Can your rescue expand on what happened? There's a whole world of possibilities behind the line that a dog bit a child.
In my experience, there can be a bit of a tendency, when a dog is being rehomed for having bitten a child, for a little too much emphasis on blaming of the child, with no evidence or knowledge of what the lead-up to the bite actually was.
If I'm contacted by an owner to rehome a dog that has bitten a child, I want to know exactly what happened. If the child was yoinking the dog around by the tail, or shoving their fingers down the dog's ears, fair enough. Can't much blame the dog for reacting there. Chances are the dog will be absolutely fine in an adult-only home. But... if the dog bit the child as the kid walked past him whilst he was eating, or if the kid inadvertently kicked against the dog's toy or bowl, or if the kid pet the dog whilst he was eating... that warns me that the dog is a resource guarder, and I'm damn careful to make sure a new owner knows that the dog may be aggressive around food or toys towards anyone, not just children, and that they must take a number of precautions until they get to know the dog a lot better, and learn what buttons to avoid pressing.
The fact that your dog has a bite history before any fireworks came along, the fact that he's reactive in some situations, all mixed up with a potentially fiery terrier temperament... at this remove I wouldn't yet be convinced that the fireworks are the cause of your own recent observations of aggression. They may be playing a part by heightening his general anxiety, but my suspicion is that you're now possibly starting to see why he was surrendered in the first place.
The behaviourist you spoke with is right... you can't properly carry out a fireworks desensitisation program unless you have full control of the fireworks noises via recordings, or distance from them. This is not possible at the moment with the proliferation of fireworks this year in particular. So for now, it's a damage-limitation exercise to get him through this Halloween "season" until quieter times when you can build up his tolerance from a very low level, in a systematic way.

zedhead · 16-09-2020 9:35am

DBB wrote: »

I've just read your previous posts about him. He's already reactive towards other dogs. He's a terrier x... many terriers can switch from fine to fiery in the blink of an eye... it's part of what being a terrier is all about. So, I suspect that reactivity of his has a sizeable genetic component, and you're now seeing it generalising.
But the bit that piqued my interest in your previous posts is that he was surrendered for biting a child?
Now... hear me out here... in my experience, people who need to surrender a dog because it has bitten someone, very often downplay things, and don't always divulge other instances of near-misses, snaps, or growls. They may not divulge such things on purpose, because they just want the dog gone, or they may genuinely not have attributed enough significance to previous near-misses. When taking in a dog with any sort of bite history, the rescue needs to ask some very specific questions in order to understand what exactly is going on. Can your rescue expand on what happened? There's a whole world of possibilities behind the line that a dog bit a child.
In my experience, there can be a bit of a tendency, when a dog is being rehomed for having bitten a child, for a little too much emphasis on blaming of the child, with no evidence or knowledge of what the lead-up to the bite actually was.
If I'm contacted by an owner to rehome a dog that has bitten a child, I want to know exactly what happened. If the child was yoinking the dog around by the tail, or shoving their fingers down the dog's ears, fair enough. Can't much blame the dog for reacting there. Chances are the dog will be absolutely fine in an adult-only home. But... if the dog bit the child as the kid walked past him whilst he was eating, or if the kid inadvertently kicked against the dog's toy or bowl, or if the kid pet the dog whilst he was eating... that warns me that the dog is a resource guarder, and I'm damn careful to make sure a new owner knows that the dog may be aggressive around food or toys towards anyone, not just children, and that they must take a number of precautions until they get to know the dog a lot better, and learn what buttons to avoid pressing.
The fact that your dog has a bite history before any fireworks came along, the fact that he's reactive in some situations, all mixed up with a potentially fiery terrier temperament... at this remove I wouldn't yet be convinced that the fireworks are the cause of your own recent observations of aggression. They may be playing a part by heightening his general anxiety, but my suspicion is that you're now possibly starting to see why he was surrendered in the first place.
The behaviourist you spoke with is right... you can't properly carry out a fireworks desensitisation program unless you have full control of the fireworks noises via recordings, or distance from them. This is not possible at the moment with the proliferation of fireworks this year in particular. So for now, it's a damage-limitation exercise to get him through this Halloween "season" until quieter times when you can build up his tolerance from a very low level, in a systematic way.

I called the rescue yesterday to try and get more information from them but they didn't really have anything to tell me. He was only about 4 months old and all they were told was he snapped at the child while on the couch (so maybe similar to what happened with us) They said the family were overwhelmed and gave up both our dog and his mother (they had adopted both from the pound a couple of months previously).

The rescue suggested they take him back to a quiet kennels for the next 6 weeks until after halloween and we can try again but I would be very concerned that it would be a lot of upheaval for him. She seemed to think that we should get him out of the city ASAP but vet and trainer said it might be a knee jerk reaction.

I do not want to give him up and will try everything i can, but the aggression over the past few days has taken a serious toll on me and the last i want is for someone to get really hurt which may make things worse for the dog. Have a muzzle ordered and wil be doing muzzle training with him once it arrives, but i know we can't keep it on him at all times - it was more for walks to make sure people give us space and if we are surprised by an off lead dog it does not escalate.

DBB · 16-09-2020 9:50am

It's not a nice situation you're in here, and the rescue should have known not to rehome a dog-reactive dog to a built-up area. It's asking for trouble, and you've got caught in the crossfire.
One thing I will say, and I see you've been looking for quiet areas to walk him... but it is vital for a behaviour modification program to work for dog reactivity, that for now, you avoid walking him in such a way that he's going to come into reasonably contact with other dogs. You simply have to cocoon him, for now. If that means walking him very early or very late, or sticking him into the car to go to remote places where he can see dogs a big distance away, and where you can get out of trouble quickly if need be, then that's what you have to do. If you're anywhere near a beach on weekdays, at low tide, they can be very handy. Even if it just means sitting up in the dunes with him to let him watch dogs at a huge distance at first... far enough away that you can get some semblance of acceptable behaviour to reinforce.
But trying to walk him in areas where you're inevitably going to meet other dogs is unlikely to ever work.

zedhead · 16-09-2020 10:04am

DBB wrote: »

It's not a nice situation you're in here, and the rescue should have known not to rehome a dog-reactive dog to a built-up area. It's asking for trouble, and you've got caught in the crossfire.
One thing I will say, and I see you've been looking for quiet areas to walk him... but it is vital for a behaviour modification program to work for dog reactivity, that for now, you avoid walking him in such a way that he's going to come into reasonably contact with other dogs. You simply have to cocoon him, for now. If that means walking him very early or very late, or sticking him into the car to go to remote places where he can see dogs a big distance away, and where you can get out of trouble quickly if need be, then that's what you have to do. If you're anywhere near a beach on weekdays, at low tide, they can be very handy. Even if it just means sitting up in the dunes with him to let him watch dogs at a huge distance at first... far enough away that you can get some semblance of acceptable behaviour to reinforce.
But trying to walk him in areas where you're inevitably going to meet other dogs is unlikely to ever work.

Yeh we have given up the reactivity walks for the moment and I am walking him at 6am where I can see other dogs and its dark enough that he doesn't and I can turn around and go the other direction. Also driving to and from the park at this time so we are not faced with corners where a surprise could be facing. The problem now is I have to keep him away from people on their daily commute too which i didn't have to before this week.

We drove around for ages on saturday trying to find somewhere quiet and remote to walk him but it was a disaster and completely disheartening. Obviously with work and driving for long time midweek to find a walking spot for him after work is almost impossible, plus i really just don;t know where to go.

DBB · 16-09-2020 10:21am

I really feel for you.
One thing you can do, is to forget about walking him and trying to train him at the same time. Bear with me here!
You can bring him to places and just sit with him at the car... he can even sit in the car, watching. Have a think about whether there's a park, or open space that you can park at and just sit with him. If you see other dogs in the distance, you can do your distraction, treating etc (a squeaky toy can be a fantastic treat for a terrier!). But, if you see a dog that's coming too close, for starters, the car will act as blinkers for your dog... less chance of him seeing dogs on all sides, but you can also close the car door, so that he never sees the other dog, or person, getting too close. For now. You are therefore protecting him from psychological flooding, adrenaline surges etc.
You could also think about buying a stuffed plush toy dog... there are some quite convincingly real ones available, and use it at a distance to start your desensitisation work. They can be useful for very reactive dogs because their own lack of movement and reactivity gives you some sort of starting point. You also have full control of how far away it is, and how far away it stays!
If there are places and/or times you know you can go for short walks safely, do that, just for the exercise value, but also look into alternative ways of tiring him out, such as games of fetch, or search/find the food/toy, maybe even some no-impact agility, all in the garden, if possible.

zedhead · 16-09-2020 10:41am

There is a cat that lives in the house behind us, it likes to sit on the roof of the house and the fence at the back of our garden. If its on the fence he goes balistic I remove him and take him to a room away from the back window but have started working with him while the cat is on the roof and he can see it and getting some results from this, not sure if it was how food crazy he was after his meds last night but he was far more interested in the hot dog than the cat last night - even when the cat was walking around the roof which usually drives him mad.

bertiebomber · 16-09-2020 11:25am

I would get him a crate cover it with a duvet when fire works are going off and give him some Adaptil tabs from the vet they are very calming i have used them & am very wary of giving drugs to both my dogs or myself. its just awful the way the laws are flouted on the fireworks situation in Dublin. Its weeks of torture for dogs and cats and horses. I cant understand how the guards cant deal with it that's what they are paid for to protect us and keep us safe.

zedhead · 16-09-2020 11:33am

bertiebomber wrote: »

I would get him a crate cover it with a duvet when fire works are going off and give him some Adaptil tabs from the vet they are very calming i have used them & am very wary of giving drugs to both my dogs or myself. its just awful the way the laws are flouted on the fireworks situation in Dublin. Its weeks of torture for dogs and cats and horses. I cant understand how the guards cant deal with it that's what they are paid for to protect us and keep us safe.

We just got an adaptil collar that we had ordered from Amazon that we are going to try today. We have already started the medication so I guess we should give them a couple of days - though I would be wary if he has the same hyper/food reactive state every time we give it to him and will chat to the vet if that does happen.

We have secured a crate from a friend who's puppy outgrew it. We should be picking it up this week.

bertiebomber · 16-09-2020 11:41am

Best of luck think the tablets are more effective than the collar but let me know i have also used CBD oil for a nervous dog couldnt see much difference at all. I was 30 quid worse off so i took it myself it was grand no change in me either !

tk123 · 16-09-2020 12:25pm

For the medicine - Bailey has been on tramadol a couple of times after surgeries and for pain relief and I found that it amplified his mood. So if he's stressed out it can make him a lot worse - this is what happened after surgery a couple of years ago... In Feb after surgery it was fantastic as he was so relaxed because I was with him pretty much 24 x7. I was prescribed diazepam a few weeks ago after injuring my neck and it was fantastic for pain relief but I was told to take it at night because of the sedative effect..like the evening before I had even put the inflatable dog collar around my neck to try and stabilise the pain was that bad :pac: When Bailey is in for anything at the vets I'm with him when he's sedated and he's generally relaxed lying there with stars spinning around his head lol.. when I collect and bring him home depending on what he's been in for - say a painful joint manipulation for X-ray - he'll be up trying to fight the sedative unless I put him in his bed/crate and sit beside him. So again - the sedative has kind of heightened his stress/fear from whatever he's had done and can take him a while to settle.

Graces7 · 17-09-2020 9:29am

tk123 wrote: »

For the medicine - Bailey has been on tramadol a couple of times after surgeries and for pain relief and I found that it amplified his mood. So if he's stressed out it can make him a lot worse - this is what happened after surgery a couple of years ago... In Feb after surgery it was fantastic as he was so relaxed because I was with him pretty much 24 x7. I was prescribed diazepam a few weeks ago after injuring my neck and it was fantastic for pain relief but I was told to take it at night because of the sedative effect..like the evening before I had even put the inflatable dog collar around my neck to try and stabilise the pain was that bad :pac: When Bailey is in for anything at the vets I'm with him when he's sedated and he's generally relaxed lying there with stars spinning around his head lol.. when I collect and bring him home depending on what he's been in for - say a painful joint manipulation for X-ray - he'll be up trying to fight the sedative unless I put him in his bed/crate and sit beside him. So again - the sedative has kind of heightened his stress/fear from whatever he's had done and can take him a while to settle.

This happens with people too. I think it is the feeling of losing control that comes with these drugs? When they start affecting and before they take over.

Anxicalm

Comments