The Middle Distance Thread

ecoli · 09-01-2014 3:20pm

Stazza wrote: »

I'll put some 'stuff' together and post it. But if you just think for a moment about how the body functions in the so called 'core area' (glutes, hip flexors, abs, erector spinae QL and all the rest of those beastie boys) you'll soon realise that isometric work in this region will develop some prime movers and leave behind smaller muscles that should be firing first. This causes, amongst other things, muscles to fire in the wrong order. This manifests in lower back pain, 'glutes not firing' - they are, because if your glutes weren't firing you wouldn't be able to walk, let alone run a sub four min mile, piriformis syndrome, achilles problems, and many more complicated things like sports hernia.

An excellent post

Based off my own experience aside from overuse muscles the majority of issues in runners stem from the muscles mentioned above with over 75% of treatments dealing with these muscles.

BeepBeep67 · 09-01-2014 3:45pm

ecoli wrote: »

An excellent post

Based off my own experience aside from overuse muscles the majority of issues in runners stem from the muscles mentioned above with over 75% of treatments dealing with these muscles.

Last time I was injured I was given 'core' work to do that was to address some of the issues that led to the injury in the 1st place.
It did include the 'go to' planks and bridges, but also included quite a bit of single leg work, such as single leg planks and bridges, plus Bavarian squats, balancing on a wobble cushion, etc.
Without the correct knowledge I'm assuming these would assist in the development of those smaller muscles that also need to fire, or am I wide of mark?
If so, what exercises are recommended to get those muscles firing?

ecoli · 09-01-2014 4:03pm

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Last time I was injured I was given 'core' work to do that was to address some of the issues that led to the injury in the 1st place.
It did include the 'go to' planks and bridges, but also included quite a bit of single leg work, such as single leg planks and bridges, plus Bavarian squats, balancing on a wobble cushion, etc.
Without the correct knowledge I'm assuming these would assist in the development of those smaller muscles that also need to fire, or am I wide of mark?
If so, what exercises are recommended to get those muscles firing?

The balance exercises are great for proprioceptive work which will help develop efficiency of movement and are essential in retraining the body after ankle injuries (and in some cases knee injuries).

Bridges similarly are a good exercise for localized muscular endurance.

With regard to isometric contraction exercises,these have their place in rehab normally in the early stages post injury when lengthening the muscle fibres will aggravate the original injury. These exercises stimulate the muscle without causing further damage.

With these smaller muscles you will get better returns working on the primary movers through their functional range of movement as a way to increase efficiency.

Remember muscle firing sequences are a neurological phenomenon as such you need to train the sensory nerves to work in the right way which is why sport specific range of movement exercises are of more benefit that isometric contractions

pconn062 · 09-01-2014 8:04pm

Some great responses here, thanks guys. I suppose at the minute I do a fair amount of strength work, up until now this has mostly been for injury rehab/prevention. A few things I do include:

Calf raises on both legs and single legs
Double leg squats
Single leg standing for balance on flat foot and with raised heel
Single leg squats
Push-ups (I know these won't really help but can't hurt anyway)
Plank (Although I might change this now based on what Stazza said

)

A lot of this stuff is to help develop lower leg strength and balance/mobility as I got a lot of lower leg niggles last year.

ecoli · 09-01-2014 8:15pm

pconn062 wrote: »

Some great responses here, thanks guys. I suppose at the minute I do a fair amount of strength work, up until now this has mostly been for injury rehab/prevention. A few things I do include:

Calf raises on both legs and single legs
Double leg squats
Single leg standing for balance on flat foot and with raised heel
Single leg squats
Push-ups (I know these won't really help but can't hurt anyway)
Plank (Although I might change this now based on what Stazza said )

A lot of this stuff is to help develop lower leg strength and balance/mobility as I got a lot of lower leg niggles last year.

Made a change myself this year. Normally I would have done alot of body weight stuff similar to you but over the last 3 months have started doing alot more compound exercises to develop power - Deadlifts, Squats (using Smith machine), Leg press, Cleans and have coupled these with plyometric work. At the moment I would do this only once a week but I attribute it to being able to do some decent shorter sessions when my turnover work has been minimal as of late

Stazza · 09-01-2014 9:50pm

YFlyer wrote: »

Thanks for the quick respond Stazza.

I'll read through your respond later in more detail and may have more questions to ask

First off, I’ve taken this thread off topic – apologies for that; I’ll try and bring it back on topic.

Just to clarify a few points: I have no agenda and nobody should change their training based on what I say – I’m just trying to generate a bit of healthy debate and get people thinking about what they are doing. I strongly suspect that many readers might be Physical Therapists, Sports Massage Therapists, Pilates Instructors, Personal Trainers, Physiotherapists etc; I’m not trying to undermine the hard and good work that these people do.

I’m, amongst other things, a retired Physical Therapist. Many moons ago I set up a company called Peak Sporting Performance, which took off pretty well and I sold it off piecemeal.

I was based at Iffley Road, Oxford – where Bannister broke the first 4 min mile. I looked after over 50 sports teams for the University, including the Athletics team and the boat crews. Our team looked after everything from nutrition, strength and conditioning, injury management, fitness assessments etc. Basically, the whole caboodle. That said, it doesn’t mean I know what I’m on about. Most people working in this area blag it. I’ll tell you the signs to watch out for.

Currently, I look after/advise/ discuss training with a good number of distance runners – the top guys being in the 64 -66 mins for the half; 2:17-2:22 for the marathon and a few middle distance guys who are handy enough. But my biggest pleasure is seeing plodders becoming ‘real’ runners.

So, there’s no agenda.

Middle Distance:

As I said before, the best starting place is the BMC website – it’s awesome. Everything from Coe to developing kids. What’s really good is to see how views about training always change – but many of the basics stay the same. So I would recommend heading over there for a gander. Steve Magness is pretty good too and has some controversial but thought provoking ideas.

Core Stability
There is no such thing as ‘The Core’ – it doesn’t exist. You have a spine and muscles that attach to it. The muscles control the spinal area. This complex area functions 3 dimensionally. The motor system controls posture and movement. The spine is robust. Very robust. It is not a vulnerable structure.

Since birth, you have been developing this area so that it operates in a functional and natural manner. Certain lifestyle habits mess it up a bit – like sitting here and typing this tripe.

Because this area is continuously working to keep you upright and fascilitate movement and many other things, if you start bashing the life out it with unnatural firing patterns, you make it over active and change the firing patterns/efficacy of the structures – this is not good. Problems start to develop and as mentioned before, results in injuries.

While the spinal area is robust, it is not designed to take the type of compression that comes from planks etc. Stressing this area by stiffening the muscles or bracing them prior to movement disrupts the natural firing patterns and compresses structures and instigates pain - insidiously. From here, complex problems arise. Other muscles start coming in and taking over the work of overworked/stressed muscles and structures like the Tr A wall and multifidus. From here, you’re on a long journey to hell.

Now, you still need to make sure this area functions effectively and facilitates the necessary 20 degrees of movement for hip extension, as well as many other jobs. The best way to do this is through functional movement patterns – look up monsters, crabs, and caterpillars and all that sorts of dynamic stuff. These simple exercises will keep everything working nicely.

Also, it’s important to work certain muscles in the hip area as they get negleted through running, notably G Min and G Med. By keeping an eye on these little babies you’ll prevent many injuries. But don’t overdo it. Check out Jay Johnson’s myrtle routine, this with some clams and reversed clams and leg raises will be enough.

One more thing, before going to see anybody about any type of sports injury, tell them that you have a stabbing pain from your xyphoid process – if they don’t laugh, run like hell: you’re gonna get ripped off.

Anyway, that should get things going. I know this is a simplified explanation – if anybody wants to have a more technical discussion, pm me.

dna_leri · 10-01-2014 10:44am

Great stuff Stazza.
I think if we want to go more in depth on core stability we should split off in another thread.

You mentioned the following resources for middle distance training:
British Milers Club - See bulletins from Spring 1997 & Autumn 2002 for 800m stuff.
Steve Magness Website
Jay Johnson website
Some good articles by Frank Horwill here
Also Brian MacKenzie website
Joe Rubio - Middle Distance guide

In terms of books Peter Coe has Winning Running and Better Training for Distance Runners. I have the first one but the second is out of print.
I also have Jack Daniels Running Formula but his 800m program is not great - no training faster than average race pace.

Anyone add to this list?

drquirky · 10-01-2014 11:16am

dna_leri wrote: »

Great stuff Stazza.
I think if we want to go more in depth on core stability we should split off in another thread.

You mentioned the following resources for middle distance training:
British Milers Club - See bulletins from Spring 1997 & Autumn 2002 for 800m stuff.
Steve Magness Website
Jay Johnson website
Some good articles by Frank Horwill here
Also Brian MacKenzie website
Joe Rubio - Middle Distance guide

In terms of books Peter Coe has Winning Running and Better Training for Distance Runners. I have the first one but the second is out of print.
I also have Jack Daniels Running Formula but his 800m program is not great - no training faster than average race pace.

Anyone add to this list?

Ecoli has a PDF of Joe Rubio's middle distance guide which is really good and applicable to many different distances- would you mind linking Ecoli?

pconn062 · 10-01-2014 11:49am

drquirky wrote: »

Ecoli has a PDF of Joe Rubio's middle distance guide which is really good and applicable to many different distances- would you mind linking Ecoli?

I have that too, will link it later, on phone now.

Stazza · 10-01-2014 11:54am

dna_leri wrote: »

Great stuff Stazza.
I think if we want to go more in depth on core stability we should split off in another thread.

You mentioned the following resources for middle distance training:
British Milers Club - See bulletins from Spring 1997 & Autumn 2002 for 800m stuff.
Steve Magness Website
Jay Johnson website
Some good articles by Frank Horwill here
Also Brian MacKenzie website
Joe Rubio - Middle Distance guide

In terms of books Peter Coe has Winning Running and Better Training for Distance Runners. I have the first one but the second is out of print.
I also have Jack Daniels Running Formula but his 800m program is not great - no training faster than average race pace.

Anyone add to this list?

Thanks for posting the links - as well as my lofty running goals, learning how to do links is one of my many non-running goals for this year

dna_leri · 10-01-2014 1:19pm

Links are included in below, including Joe Rubio's pdf.

Another good resource is LetsRun.com, if you can shift through the dross - this 10 year old best-of thread is a place to start.

British Milers Club - See bulletins from Spring 1997 & Autumn 2002 for 800m stuff.
Steve Magness Website
Jay Johnson website
Some good articles by Frank Horwill here
Also Brian MacKenzie website
Joe Rubio - Middle Distance guide

In terms of books Peter Coe has Winning Running and Better Training for Distance Runners.
I also have Jack Daniels Running Formula

Anyone add to this list?

pconn062 · 10-01-2014 1:44pm

pconn062 wrote: »

I have that too, will link it later, on phone now.

Sorry, it's actually a different file I have, but dna linked it anyway.

I found this to be really useful: http://runstrong.me/images/Training%20CliffsNotes.pdf

ecoli · 10-01-2014 3:22pm

Running My way by Harry Wilson (Ovett's coach) also a great reference if anyone wants a lend pm me (would want it back though as a few of my books have gone missing in the past)

ecoli · 10-01-2014 3:24pm

pconn062 wrote: »

Sorry, it's actually a different file I have, but dna linked it anyway.

I found this to be really useful: http://runstrong.me/images/Training%20CliffsNotes.pdf

Came across this one myself and found it a relatively decent reference point alright

ecoli · 10-01-2014 3:33pm

dna_leri wrote: »

Another good resource is LetsRun.com, if you can shift through the dross - this 10 year old best-of thread is a place to start.

This is also a great one I found in the past and gives a number of different approaches

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2669719&page=0

Letyourselfgo · 10-01-2014 3:58pm

ecoli wrote: »

Running My way by Harry Wilson (Ovett's coach) also a great reference if anyone wants a lend pm me (would want it back though as a few of my books have gone missing in the past)

I still have your ''Running with the buffaloes'' might give it another read before returning if that's ok?

ecoli · 10-01-2014 4:11pm

Letyourselfgo wrote: »

I still have your ''Running with the buffaloes'' might give it another read before returning if that's ok?

Is that where that went ha couldn't remember who I had it lent out to. Yeah that's no problem at all

pconn062 · 10-01-2014 4:41pm

ecoli wrote: »

Came across this one myself and found it a relatively decent reference point alright

I actually got it off you originally! :pac:

BeepBeep67 · 10-01-2014 5:13pm

ecoli wrote: »

Is that where that went ha couldn't remember who I had it lent out to. Yeah that's no problem at all

ecoli · 10-01-2014 5:25pm

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Any chance of the lend of your I phone to take a picture ?

BeepBeep67 · 10-01-2014 5:43pm

ecoli wrote: »

Any chance of the lend of your I phone to take a picture ?

Never touched one of those <shudder>

pconn062 · 10-01-2014 5:50pm

So, I'm relatively new to all this and am trying to put together a rough schedule for the year. I'm also going to be getting some coaching but would like a rough structure for myself. How would this look for an runner looking to focus on the outdoor season (mainly June/July), who is not looking to focus on indoors.

December/January: Base building, just mileage with tempo work and strides and hills for turnover work.

February/March: Keeping the mileage relatively similar but introducing some interval work/vo2 max work. So reps at 3/5k pace, maybe 5x1k, 6x800m, 12x400m. Also including occasional speed workouts such as 150m build ups.

April/May: A slight drop in mileage and start including some race pace stuff. So specific sessions at race pace, maybe some early races at above and below distance. For me that would be 800m and 3000m races, with 1500m being the main event. Also some sharpening sessions towards the end of May.

June/July: Racing season, probably racing most weeks with a light session thrown in.

I know that is all very vague but does it sound roughly correct? I will also do some shorter road races (5 mile max) up until April or so. I find that my body breaks down if I do two hard sessions a week on the track so I'm thinking of limiting to one session a week and maybe doing the turnover work on grass.

ecoli · 10-01-2014 6:11pm

pconn062 wrote: »

So, I'm relatively new to all this and am trying to put together a rough schedule for the year. I'm also going to be getting some coaching but would like a rough structure for myself. How would this look for an runner looking to focus on the outdoor season (mainly June/July), who is not looking to focus on indoors.

December/January: Base building, just mileage with tempo work and strides and hills for turnover work.

February/March: Keeping the mileage relatively similar but introducing some interval work/vo2 max work. So reps at 3/5k pace, maybe 5x1k, 6x800m, 12x400m. Also including occasional speed workouts such as 150m build ups.

April/May: A slight drop in mileage and start including some race pace stuff. So specific sessions at race pace, maybe some early races at above and below distance. For me that would be 800m and 3000m races, with 1500m being the main event. Also some sharpening sessions towards the end of May.

June/July: Racing season, probably racing most weeks with a light session thrown in.

I know that is all very vague but does it sound roughly correct? I will also do some shorter road races (5 mile max) up until April or so. I find that my body breaks down if I do two hard sessions a week on the track so I'm thinking of limiting to one session a week and maybe doing the turnover work on grass.

Generally looks alright to me. Few points

- Tempo's shouldn't be ignored and personally speaking I would keep these in some shape or format right through to April (doesn't have to be every week). 1500m is predominantly aerobic event so we don't want this being eroded early season
- Turnover work doesn't have to be classified as a session, A couple of 200s @ 1500m race pace after an easy run is fine early season just make sure that the recoveries are generous to the point where the body is not being taxed.

I know plenty who have success with this basic template

Early season - 3 sessions a week - short hills, long reps (800-1 mile), tempo
Pre Comp - 3 sessions - Short reps, Long reps, Tempo

As you have said 3 sessions a week can be taxing but there is no reason why you can't run two week cycles -

Week 1 - Turnover session, Long Reps
Week 2 - Short Hills, Tempo

And repeat for 4 cycles which would give you a decent base doing in Feb/Mar then moving to April/May to more Vo2 Max stuff and then get into race specific come June and into full race season after that.

Remember it is a long season and stretches into August with the Gradeds so you don't wanna overcook it too soon. The race specific sessions are icing on the cake designed to get your body used to running at race pace but they require the engine to be allowed to do so and as such I think you would be better off not coming into the start of May in peak fitness just because the race calendar kicks off then. It normally takes a couple of races before we are capable of running at are optimum so as such we want to go into the first few races slightly undercooked so that we are fresh enough later in the season when it counts for running the times we should be.

Stazza · 10-01-2014 10:21pm

pconn062 wrote: »

So, I'm relatively new to all this and am trying to put together a rough schedule for the year. I'm also going to be getting some coaching but would like a rough structure for myself. How would this look for an runner looking to focus on the outdoor season (mainly June/July), who is not looking to focus on indoors.

December/January: Base building, just mileage with tempo work and strides and hills for turnover work.

February/March: Keeping the mileage relatively similar but introducing some interval work/vo2 max work. So reps at 3/5k pace, maybe 5x1k, 6x800m, 12x400m. Also including occasional speed workouts such as 150m build ups.

April/May: A slight drop in mileage and start including some race pace stuff. So specific sessions at race pace, maybe some early races at above and below distance. For me that would be 800m and 3000m races, with 1500m being the main event. Also some sharpening sessions towards the end of May.

June/July: Racing season, probably racing most weeks with a light session thrown in.

I know that is all very vague but does it sound roughly correct? I will also do some shorter road races (5 mile max) up until April or so. I find that my body breaks down if I do two hard sessions a week on the track so I'm thinking of limiting to one session a week and maybe doing the turnover work on grass.

When I was out on my run tonight, I was thinking that it would be a good idea to post our plans and let others make suggestions. Good on ya for posting your plan. Great ideas from ecoli.

ecoli · 12-01-2014 4:34pm

Thought this might be of interest to some. It came from Letsrun, normally would dismiss these as just speculation however I have alot of what is here has come up in some shape or form in interviews from Salazar over the last 2-3 years and the 600 breakdown session was again brought up today in an interview ( http://www.dyestat.com/gprofile.php?mgroup_id=44531&do=news&news_id=201809 ) so I suspect the post has a few elements of truth to it, irregardless not a bad post regarding training

Because I believe in sharing information for the benefit of other coaches, here is my synopsis of the Salazar group from speaking with Alberto, several in his camp, and personal observations.

Two week cycles. Here is a general outline for the majority of the year. (more specific in the final 6-7 weeks)
1 short speed session per week year round. In the fall this can be hills and 200's. The key is progression. If Galen wants to run 12x200 in 25.5 in August, he starts in late March/April (double periodization) with 200's in 29. Always a 200j between. The short speed day obviously gets tailored to the specific needs of the athlete as races approach (can be 400's or a mix of short intervals)

2. 1 longer workout per week. This can be long intervals (ex: 6x1600 w/400j or 8x1200 w/400j) or a 6-8 mile tempo run. Again the key is progression. Moving from say 4:30-25 for mile repeats down to 4:11-4:13 for Galen. The intervals are faster than 10k race pace, but longer recoveries than most other "elite" runners training. Just an interesting side note.

3. One medium interval workout ever yother week. Most of the time is 600's or 800's or 600m breakdowns (600,400,300,200). 3 or 4 sets of the breakdowns, or 8x800.

4. Long run once per week. One week is a slower long run and one week is a harder long run. The hard long run for Mo and Galen would be anywhere from 5:00 to 5:30 depending upon the time of year. Normally 17-20 miles.

The last 6-7 weeks before your key race is the hardest training cycle. Notice very little to no racing for Salazar's athletes in this time period.

Normal easy runs are around 5:40-45 for Mo and Galen.

In a two week cycle: 5 workouts and two long runs.
Surprisingly simple, it's the consistency, progression and confidence that sets these runners apart (and natural talent!)

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4728972&page=0

Stazza · 12-01-2014 4:59pm

ecoli wrote: »

Thought this might be of interest to some. It came from Letsrun, normally would dismiss these as just speculation however I have alot of what is here has come up in some shape or form in interviews from Salazar over the last 2-3 years and the 600 breakdown session was again brought up today in an interview ( http://www.dyestat.com/gprofile.php?mgroup_id=44531&do=news&news_id=201809 ) so I suspect the post has a few elements of truth to it, irregardless not a bad post regarding training

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4728972&page=0

Great stuff ecoli. If you promise not to tell anybody I'll show you a real Al Sal session - with pics! Gotta promise not to tell...

ecoli · 12-01-2014 5:01pm

Stazza wrote: »

Great stuff ecoli. If you promise not to tell anybody I'll show you a real Al Sal session - with pics! Gotta promise not to tell...

I'll see your session and raise you a video from Font Romeu

Stazza · 12-01-2014 5:13pm

ecoli wrote: »

I'll see your session and raise you a video from Font Romeu

That's old news:P I'm not sure if you could cope with what I've got - you might have to go incognito:D

Stazza · 12-01-2014 5:36pm

Ok - here's a cheeky little Al Sal session with a nice pic.

Stazza · 12-01-2014 5:37pm

Stazza wrote: »

Ok - here's a cheeky little Al Sal session with a nice pic.

Oops! I try again later.

Sorted! Link's working now.

The Middle Distance Thread

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