Failte Ireland report on the Mayo Greenway

clonmahon · 30-01-2012 9:10pm #1

Interesting report commissioned by Failte Ireland on the Mayo Greenway in October last.

http://www.failteireland.ie/FailteCorp/media/FailteIreland/documents/Business%20Supports/Tourism%20Sector%20Development/Activities/Great-Western-Greenway---Economic-Impact-Case-Study.pdf

Headline figures are
"7.2 million in spend in the local economy over a full year in 2011" resulting from the Greenway.

940,00 by local people

3.5 million by domestic visitors

and

2.8 million by overseas visitors

It cost 3 million to build. If there figures are right it paid for itself in about 5 months.

If this is what a crap cycleway can do imagine what might happen if we built some good ones. What would happen if we built a long cycleway through some great Irish landscape and it had no cattle grids, kissing gates, gates you had to get off and open, and it stayed open on the 20th of January (the Greenway closes on that day every year to ensure a right of way is not established).

What is really odd about all this is, we build a crap cycleway in Enda Kenny's constituency, it is a monster success and Kenny is a cyclist himself, and yet still there is no eureka moment. This is the kind of project we have the means, the skills and the resources needed to do and we now we have a pilot project that says it will pay for itself and still there is no sign of serious movement in the corridors of power. Truly the Irish body politic is ossified.

at1withmyself · 30-01-2012 9:59pm

What makes it so crap, have you cycled it? I'd be interested in knowing whats so bad about it as I'm planning on completing it as the first ride on my new bike this weekend.

From the website and friends reports it looks/sounds like a nice spin.

650Ginge · 30-01-2012 10:05pm

Got to about page 6, tedious.

TonyStark · 30-01-2012 10:11pm

clonmahon wrote: »

Interesting report commissioned by Failte Ireland on the Mayo Greenway in October last.

http://www.failteireland.ie/FailteCorp/media/FailteIreland/documents/Business%20Supports/Tourism%20Sector%20Development/Activities/Great-Western-Greenway---Economic-Impact-Case-Study.pdf

Headline figures are
"7.2 million in spend in the local economy over a full year in 2011" resulting from the Greenway.

940,00 by local people

3.5 million by domestic visitors

and

2.8 million by overseas visitors

It cost 3 million to build. If there figures are right it paid for itself in about 5 months.

If this is what a crap cycleway can do imagine what might happen if we built some good ones. What would happen if we built a long cycleway through some great Irish landscape and it had no cattle grids, kissing gates, gates you had to get off and open, and it stayed open on the 20th of January (the Greenway closes on that day every year to ensure a right of way is not established).

What is really odd about all this is, we build a crap cycleway in Enda Kenny's constituency, it is a monster success and Kenny is a cyclist himself, and yet still there is no eureka moment. This is the kind of project we have the means, the skills and the resources needed to do and we now we have a pilot project that says it will pay for itself and still there is no sign of serious movement in the corridors of power. Truly the Irish body politic is ossified.

A cycle way build on a disused railway line hence the gentle inclines. It is technically possible to follow the old railway line from Westport to Achill. Some of the most scenic scenery in the country that one wouldn't normally experience if they were to travel by car.

Well worth a shot.

clonmahon · 30-01-2012 10:24pm

I have indeed cycled it and the problems as I wrote above are "cattle grids, kissing gates, gates you had to get off and open" Also humped back bridges, hump backed ridges and 90 degree turns. It is a great collection of obstacles that slow down cyclists and they are spread evenly along it, so there are very few stretches where you can make any speed, due the constant need to slow down and negotiate another obstacle. It is unsuitable for fully loaded touring bikes, tandems, bikes with trailers, trikes and velomobiles. You also have to mix it with pedestrians. It is better than no cycleway at all, but is only suitable for the very relaxed casual cyclist.

I have seen a long distance french cycleway, which is a specially built, two lanes each way road for bikes only and where it crossed the road the bikes had right of way. There were no obstacles of any kind. The Dutch are beginning to build intercity cycleways with 4 lanes each way. These are world class cycleways, I'm amused when I read the Mayo Greenway self promotion referring to it as "a world class cycleway". It is not, it is third rate.

But to paraphrase Woody Allen as third rate cycleways go its a good one, the scenery will beat anything in Holland and it takes you out into the countryside far from roads, far from the sound of traffic. We may yet build a world class cycleway in Ireland but this ain't it. Until we do build a great one this is the best one we have, so far.

TopCat01 · 30-01-2012 10:24pm

Sorry, exactly what is so crap about it? And if it is so crap, why are you whinging that they don't repeat it?

I for one have cycled good portion of it and really enjoyed it. They have some really nice features like the bridges which probably could have been cheaper and plainer, but they went to some effort on them and made them half decent and interesting. They also have some benches along the way so you can sit down, away from road traffic and enjoy the scenery.

I'm not sure exactly what you expect about the various gates used. You want electronic gates that sense you are coming and open automatically swing open for you? Cos I've a feeling it might take a bit longer to recoup the cost on that. And anyway, I think a lot of people who travel the route aren't doing it to get from one point to another in as fast a time as possible, its not that big a deal if you have to get off your bike the odd time to open a gate?

clonmahon · 30-01-2012 10:35pm

TopCat01 wrote: »

Sorry, exactly what is so crap about it? And if it is so crap, why are you whinging that they don't repeat it?

What's so crap you ask,
Let me repeat
"cattle grids, kissing gates, gates you had to get off and open" Also humped back bridges, hump backed ridges and 90 degree turns"

Making it unsuitable for
I repeat
"fully loaded touring bikes, tandems, bikes with trailers, trikes and velomobiles"

TopCat01 wrote: »

why are you whinging that they don't repeat it

I am not whinging I am making a serious and I believe simple and easily comprehendable point, to repeat.
"If this is what a crap cycleway can do imagine what might happen if we built some good ones"
Imagine if instead of saying it was world class, it was world class, like a Dutch cycleway.

TopCat01 wrote: »

electronic gates that sense you are coming and open automatically swing open for you? Cos I've a feeling it might take a bit longer to recoup the cost on that.

No gates at all, like a French or Dutch cycleway. I also drive a car from time to time, I don't want to stop, get out of my car and open gates. Why should I want to do this when cycling.

TopCat01 · 30-01-2012 10:39pm

Back up Bertie, if you check the time of the posts, you'll see my reply was the same time you made your points, no need to repeat, repeat, repeat

Chill

clonmahon · 30-01-2012 10:45pm

TopCat01 wrote: »

Back up Bertie, if you check the time of the posts, you'll see my reply was the same time you made your points, no need to repeat, repeat, repeat

Chill

I will chill, but using a word like "whinging" to describe a post is personal and pejorative. My apologies I see that your point about the time of the posts is correct.

vicwatson · 30-01-2012 10:48pm

the 20th of January (the Greenway closes on that day every year to ensure a right of way is not established).

This is a good idea surely.

I read in The Sunday Times last week that only 1 land owner would not give them access to their land and therefore one has to cycle for 2 km on the normal road - hardly a big deal is it?

I for one plan on cycling it this year and looking forward to it.

I take your points about gathering momentum and having to stop, how close are they? I'll know more later after I've cycled it.

TopCat01 · 30-01-2012 10:55pm

Fair enough, I'll take that back.

But do you see my point about you giving out about it and then saying it should be repeated? It just comes across that you are slating it from both sides.

While I'm not saying its perfect (and not sure where they got world class), I believe credit where credit is due. It was built relatively cheaply, you have pedestrians on it because it was designed for cycle and pedestrian use, and the reason there are a load of gates and other controls was because they used local co-operation to get permission from the landowners, which was probably a much more cost effective option?

Certainly improvement can be made, but its not a bad start.

As for rolling it out in more places, has that been ruled out, or just not been discussed/agreed yet? To be fair, it the Greenway was only completed last year.

(And no, I don't work for and Co Co or anyone involved in this project

)

Chips Lovell · 30-01-2012 11:17pm

I've cycled it in relation to a travel piece I was writing. It's grand. The surface isn't really suitable for a racing bike, but it's fine for something with slightly wider tyres. I only remember a couple of kissing gates. The grids aren't a problem. I don't think it's meant to be for building up a head of speed. For its purpose, I think it's quite good.

clonmahon · 30-01-2012 11:37pm

TopCat01 wrote: »

But do you see my point about you giving out about it and then saying it should be repeated? It just comes across that you are slating it from both sides.

What I am saying is that this report proves the Great Western Greenway is an economic success, it has more than payed for itself already. I am not saying we should not build cycleways, I am saying we should build better ones.

TopCat01 wrote: »

While I'm not saying its perfect (and not sure where they got world class)

I have personally seen world class cycleways in France and there is lots of video on Youtube of Dutch cycleways.

TopCat01 wrote: »

I believe credit where credit is due. It was built relatively cheaply, you have pedestrians on it because it was designed for cycle and pedestrian use, and the reason there are a load of gates and other controls was because they used local co-operation to get permission from the landowners, which was probably a much more cost effective option?

Certainly improvement can be made, but its not a bad start.

I agree totally, fantastic work by the community sector and Mayo Co Council who have taken the chance, used what was available and proved the concept. It's a great start, given the constraints of resources and the adverse possession issue. We need to create cycleways that are like roads, not dependent on the goodwill of landowners and not covered in gates and grids.

I probably overstated the case in using the word crap to describe it.

TopCat01 wrote: »

As for rolling it out in more places, has that been ruled out, or just not been discussed/agreed yet? To be fair, it the Greenway was only completed last year.

(And no, I don't work for and Co Co or anyone involved in this project )

Perhaps I am being impatient, but I see that our economy is contracting under the austerity regime and we really need some kind of economic stimulus. What this report proves is that cycleways are a winner, they are an ideal economic stimulus package. I say lets build lots of them and quickly, but lets build them to a Dutch standard.

Finally my main grip with the Greenway is personal, I like fully loaded bike touring in the summer. When I do I'm carrying up to 17 kgs of cargo on the bike. It is not very maneuverable with this load and I would not take it on the Greenway and deal with the kissing gates. It would also take too much energy getting back up to cruising again after I got through the gate. If I wanted to get from Westport to Achill fully loaded I would still take the road.

I might also add I would not use it to commute on if I lived in the area, I would use the road for that.

yop · 31-01-2012 12:50am

Your the only person I have heard call it crap, as you said personal opinion as you seem to think that they should cater for "carry the sink around" cyclists, but for the 99.9% who dont, then its obviously not crap.

Its a brilliant amenity which has created many new jobs and brought business to that area of Mayo.

You do seem to have a little chip on your shoulder, best of luck finding somewhere in Ireland where you will be crossing land without, "no cattle grids, kissing gates, gates you had to get off", as for the "remain open on 20th Jan", do you be sitting outside pubs on Xmas day whining about them now been open?

Bigus · 31-01-2012 12:59am

I did it with the OH this year all the way from Wesport to achill sound, we thought it was fantastic, and will be back this year again. No not ideal for a narrow racing wheel, but perhaps that's a good thing, we used lightweight front suspension hybrids, ideal.

jimstir · 31-01-2012 1:05am

at1withmyself wrote: »

What makes it so crap, have you cycled it? I'd be interested in knowing whats so bad about it as I'm planning on completing it as the first ride on my new bike this weekend.

From the website and friends reports it looks/sounds like a nice spin.

I cycled it and it's fantastic. I started in Westport and U do have to cycle the odd part on the main road - maybe 500 or 600 meters in total. However, once U pass Newport, U are on the off road track practically all the way to Achill. The scenery is amazing. There are virtually no hills on the track because U cycle around the hill rather than over it.

It's not crap, it's fantastic, really hope more people enjoy it

yop · 31-01-2012 1:14am

jimstir wrote: »

I cycled it and it's fantastic. I started in Westport and U do have to cycle the odd part on the main road - maybe 500 or 600 meters in total. However, once U pass Newport, U are on the off road track practically all the way to Achill. The scenery is amazing. There are virtually no hills on the track because U cycle around the hill rather than over it.

It's not crap, it's fantastic, really hope more people enjoy it

Your right on all your points, it was never meant for the "tour de france" and if it was you would have club cyclists on that which would deter families and newbie cyclists.
It was never made for roadbikes but it certainly has encouraged many to take up more cycling or get out for a walk/run on that track.

Many many towns around the country are looking at this as a model, hopefully all going well with the nod given for the Castlebar leg to start CPO you will have the facility to cycle from Castlebar to Achill via Westport on mainly off road, safe paths.
There is also on going talks with extending the cycleway from Westport to Roonagh pier allowing tourist cycle the full way to the ferry for Clare Island.

clonmahon · 31-01-2012 2:04am

yop wrote: »

Your the only person I have heard call it crap,

In the post just before this I wrote "I probably overstated the case in using the word crap to describe it" and I rowed back from that position.

yop wrote: »

as you said personal opinion as you seem to think that they should cater for "carry the sink around" cyclists, but for the 99.9% who dont, then its obviously not crap.

If we want to attract foreign touring cyclists to Ireland then it would help if we built cycleways that were suitable for them too.

yop wrote: »

many new jobs and brought business to that area of Mayo.

Clearly from the report which I quoted in the original post this is true, I did not argue otherwise.

yop wrote: »

You do seem to have a little chip on your shoulder

This a personal attack, clearly you disagree with me. You disapprove of my ideas and the way I expressed them and you are prepared to use this kind of personally offensive language to attack me, but this neither proves that my ideas are wrong or that I am in some way maladjusted. This is just childish name calling.

It is also very typical of Ireland, we do many things in a mediocre way, claim they are world class and then if anyone points out the mediocrity they are personally attacked with such banalities as "they have a chip on their shoulder". I have seen rural cycleways in the south of France and I have cycled the length of the Greenway. The French cycleways are vastly superior pieces of infrastructure to the Mayo Greenway and no amount of name calling on your part will change that.

yop wrote: »

best of luck finding somewhere in Ireland where you will be crossing land without, "no cattle grids, kissing gates, gates you had to get off"

If the proposed Galway to Clifden cycleway goes ahead much of the Connemara countryside it will pass through is wild and unenclosed, so there should be long stretches without gates or grids.

There is no reason we cannot build great cycleways. The Greenway is a good pilot project, it is a success, but it is a long way from perfect and there are many valuable lessons to be learned from it. We can do better, but we can only do better if we are prepared to try and you seem to be advocating that we not try. Why cover the country in mediocre cycleways when if we aspired to we could do a network of great ones, we really could build a world class cycleway.

clonmahon · 31-01-2012 2:08am

yop wrote: »

Many many towns around the country are looking at this as a model, hopefully all going well with the nod given for the Castlebar leg to start CPO you will have the facility to cycle from Castlebar to Achill via Westport on mainly off road, safe paths.

By CPO do you mean Compulsory Purchase Order and if yes what will be subject to CPO. I understood there were no CPO involved in the development of the GW Greenway.

Neworder79 · 31-01-2012 2:33am

clonmahon wrote: »

yop wrote: »

Many many towns around the country are looking at this as a model, hopefully all going well with the nod given for the Castlebar leg to start CPO you will have the facility to cycle from Castlebar to Achill via Westport on mainly off road, safe paths.

By CPO do you mean Compulsory Purchase Order and if yes what will be subject to CPO. I understood there were no CPO involved in the development of the GW Greenway.

The planned Castlebar to Westport section isn't following a rail line (it's in use) so I presume thats what they mean. It would follow existing Lough Lannagh path then past Islandedy lakes and Rehins woods trail, joining Westport town greenway and then the Westport Achill greenway.

Hadn't heard about the Roonagh plan but it's an excellent idea that would offer a full Clew bay loop via Clare Island. Already have a roadside cycle lane from Westprt quay end most of the way to Murrisk.

clonmahon · 31-01-2012 3:13am

For the casual or novice cyclist the Greenway is a good cycle route and I acknowledged this earlier. Please don't take my criticism personally. I have nothing against Mayo people and I enjoyed my day on the Greenway last August, but my idea of what a cycleway could be was formed before I cycled the GW Greenway.

The French cycleway I am familiar with is from Lourdes to Soloum via Argeles. Below is a link to a video of some people rollerblading on it. The cycleway is two lane and there is a footpath on the left. Like the Mayo Greenway it is built on an old railway line and is in a tourist and agricultural area. It runs south into the Pyrenees mountains from Lourdes and runs along the valley floor. The scenery is spectacular and it brings you close to many famous Tour De France climbs. The surface is paved and there are no obstacles of any kind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KFx0jVGqI&feature=related

Here is a video of an even more upmarket cycleway I think on the Italian Riveria

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4joZT5S6rA

The GW Greenway is the best cycleway in the Irish Republic but it has some way to go before it reaches the standard of these.

Cookie_Monster · 31-01-2012 3:19am

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

The surface isn't really suitable for a racing bike, but it's fine for something with slightly wider tyres.

so the only vague benefit, being quiter than the roads, is made redundant by the unsuitable surface, horray:rolleyes:

you go out anywhere in the country and and the majority of bikes you will see are racers, why rules out such a large proportion of users by cutting corners?

Cecil Mor · 31-01-2012 4:42am

Sometimes I forget that bol@x's cycle bikes too.
If ye don't like it then bugger off back to France with yourself. Ask any member of any hill walking club in this country what its like to deal with some land owners as regards accessing lands, rights of way, Greenways etc. This is at a completely different level compared to what our counterparts have to deal with in other European countries.

Road bikes may appear to be the most common bike in the country if you only have eyes for such bikes but this is a facility to attract many cyclists of all disciplines but also families with kids wobbling along behind on their wee bikes. The average cyclist is not out drafting their 8yr old daughter on her Barbie bicycle on a €2500 Pinerello.

Chip on your shoulder? You're the one claiming that my Country, and I therefore assume its citizens are master's of mediocrity!!! You've a chip the size of Mayo on your shoulder!
You want to know what mediocrity is? 17 friggin' kgs on a bike and pi*sing on about been unable to gather momentum on gentle climbs or struggling to lift your bike over wee gates. You Poor Pet!
You really have little to moan about:-/

galwaycyclist · 31-01-2012 6:16am

Neworder79 wrote: »

Hadn't heard about the Roonagh plan but it's an excellent idea that would offer a full Clew bay loop via Clare Island. Already have a roadside cycle lane from Westprt quay end most of the way to Murrisk.

If this is the thing that is on one side of the road then, in my view, it is dangerous. The Achill greenway works because it was designed by victorian railway engineers.

Once Irish roads engineers get into the act of providing cycling infrastructure we are into a more problematic situation.

Chips Lovell · 31-01-2012 8:16am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

so the only vague benefit, being quiter than the roads, is made redundant by the unsuitable surface, horray:rolleyes:

you go out anywhere in the country and and the majority of bikes you will see are racers, why rules out such a large proportion of users by cutting corners?

It's designed for leisure cyclists. Having a rake of roadies tearing along it would defeat its purpose and, I think, make it less attractive for families etc.

I did a lot of road cycling on that trip and the roads around there are fantastic.

monkeypants · 31-01-2012 9:03am

I did this with the missus back at the beginning of October. Hired two bikes in Westport, so we were on hybrids for the day and went all the way to Achill. Great day out. The surface can be rough at times, but since we weren't racing along, we had no problems. Grids, gates, etc. were easily negotiated. I'll be going back.

yop · 31-01-2012 9:59am

clonmahon wrote: »

This a personal attack, clearly you disagree with me. You disapprove of my ideas and the way I expressed them and you are prepared to use this kind of personally offensive language to attack me, but this neither proves that my ideas are wrong or that I am in some way maladjusted. This is just childish name calling.

It is also very typical of Ireland, we do many things in a mediocre way, claim they are world class and then if anyone points out the mediocrity they are personally attacked with such banalities as "they have a chip on their shoulder". I have seen rural cycleways in the south of France and I have cycled the length of the Greenway. The French cycleways are vastly superior pieces of infrastructure to the Mayo Greenway and no amount of name calling on your part will change that.

If the proposed Galway to Clifden cycleway goes ahead much of the Connemara countryside it will pass through is wild and unenclosed, so there should be long stretches without gates or grids.

There is no reason we cannot build great cycleways. The Greenway is a good pilot project, it is a success, but it is a long way from perfect and there are many valuable lessons to be learned from it. We can do better, but we can only do better if we are prepared to try and you seem to be advocating that we not try. Why cover the country in mediocre cycleways when if we aspi. red to we could do a network of great ones, we really could build a world class cycleway.

If thats a personal attack then you need to get out a wee bit more, I noted you edited that post since 2am, I saw what you posted and that too if you want classify it, was "personal attack" :rolleyes:

Anyway back to the real world, as I and many more have mentioned, the majority have found the track very good, its a leisure path, it allows people to slow down and enjoy the scenery and a cycle at their own pace.

This isn't France, if it were we would have a right road structure, we would have nice wine and speak French, if you want away from the "Crap" then Ryanair do cheap flight, though that 19kg on your bike is gonna cost you.

The lane to Murrisk is been re done due to it been wholly part of the road with no separation outside of a few cats eye, which is much to dangerous.

I would ask where you live and how the cycle ways are doing there?

smacl · 31-01-2012 9:59am

I did the cycle with the family last Autumn, and also cycled with the family on small l-roads around Waterville in Kerry over the summer. Myself, the missus, and two girls 7 & 11, the 7 year old I was towing via a trail gator when she got knackered. I tend to agree with the OP, that when towing a kid, the greenway is poorly designed, and on balance no safer than the rural l-roads. The fact that the regular cattle grids are narrow, beside a full size closed gate makes them a real hazard with a trailer, particularly with two way traffic. Much of route is fenced either side, to keep livestock in rather than tourists out i presume, yet there are still regular narrow cattle grids. Why? The design seems too compromised by local farmers requirements in my opinion.

In terms of a family break, the kids were getting bored of the cycling on the greenway by the second day. The slower running surface and lack of any hills meant that it didn't offer much in the way of excitement. The bit they both enjoyed most was the hill between Newport and Mulranny which was scary enough coming down to provide a bit of excitement. The route would really benefit from a few bits of bumpier single track as diversions for older kids. I think they may well have been constructing something like this when we were down.

The hotels also need to get there act together to offer family point to point breaks, so you can actually do the Westport to Achill run without a major booking nightmare, and getting ripped off for single night stays. In the dim and distant past before kids, we used to do a lot of walking holidays throughout Europe with the likes of Sherpa, Explore, etc... and the package would include somewhere different to stay each night with B&B, and each hotel would bring your luggage on to the next place so you only needed to carry a day pack. The greenway needs something like this to be a reasonable tourist option for those coming from abroad. We stayed in Newport FWIW, which is a fantastic spot, well priced, and loved by the whole family.

While we enjoyed the greenway, I doubt we could talk the kids into going back. Rural Kerry is a no brainer, however. Cycle to the beach, go for a swim or go canoeing, cycle to the pub for a bite and an ice cream, hit the bumpy bohereens in the afternoon, etc... Off to Doolin for the easter with the extended family and collection of raggle taggle bikes. Wonder how the trailgator will make it around Black head.

smacl · 31-01-2012 10:41am

yop wrote: »

Your the only person I have heard call it crap, as you said personal opinion as you seem to think that they should cater for "carry the sink around" cyclists, but for the 99.9% who dont, then its obviously not crap.

I saw more bikes towing trailers on the greenway than I have ever seen before or since. If that constitutes carrying around the sink, it needs to be catered for, as an amenity the greenway seems squarely aimed at families with you kids. It's not crap, but some of the design choices are crap in my opinion.

Its a brilliant amenity which has created many new jobs and brought business to that area of Mayo.

Excellent stuff, love Mayo, and fair play to all those that made this happen. Hopefully with some relatively minor enhancements based on constructive feedback it will continue to bring similar and increasing benefits in the future.

best of luck finding somewhere in Ireland where you will be crossing land without, "no cattle grids, kissing gates, gates you had to get off", as for the "remain open on 20th Jan"

When this route was originally a railway, there were no cattle grids or kissing gates, in much the same way there are none on even the most minor and insignificant of roads. It's simply a question of priorities. Declare 20-30 metres either side of the path centre line as national park, fence it off with gates so live stock can cross as required, and get rid of the obstacles on the route that compromise the quality of this amenity.

If you want to find somewhere nice in Ireland for a days family cycling with minimal traffic, no obstacles, and a good surface, try Glengarrif national park. And for the hill climbing dads that want the challenge, this leads you up to Barley lake.

yop · 31-01-2012 10:45am

smacl wrote: »

And for the hill climbing dads that want the challenge, this leads you up to Barley lake.

We will take you up the Maam or Sheffry or the windy gap if you want a few hills

And the spin around Glengarrif national park takes you from town to town does it? Not comparing like with like I am afraid.

TopCat01 · 31-01-2012 11:02am

smacl wrote: »

...When this route was originally a railway, there were no cattle grids or kissing gates, in much the same way there are none on even the most minor and insignificant of roads. It's simply a question of priorities. Declare 20-30 metres either side of the path centre line as national park, fence it off with gates so live stock can cross as required, and get rid of the obstacles on the route that compromise the quality of this amenity...

While I agree this would be nice, I think people are missing a point here. I'm pretty sure (open to correction though) this was done with a huge amount of co-operation with (and permission from) locals, and not through CPO's, which would have cost a hell of a lot more, and taken a lot longer.

It's like comparing Thomond Park and the Aviva. From the outside they might look similar, and people might complain that the facilities in Thomond don't match up, but the fact is the cost of the Aviva was (per seat) 8 times that of Thomond!

Sometimes the cost/benefit is just better for lower cost projects, than one with all the bells and whistles required to satisfy that last 5% of users.

smacl · 31-01-2012 11:26am

TopCat01 wrote: »

Sometimes the cost/benefit is just better for lower cost projects, than one with all the bells and whistles required to satisfy that last 5% of users.

What originally attracted me to the amenity was a piece Dermuid Gavin did for the RTE, in which he was towing his kids. It does seem that this is a target market for the Greenway. I'd guess more than one in twenty users are towing trailers of some kind, and they constitute part of a larger family group, so I'd say your 5% is more like 25%.

I took a spill with my daughter in tow coming through one of the narrow cattle grids with long boarded sides. Nice bit of father and daughter road rash. Speaking to another father towing a younger kid later that evening, he had a similar experience. These are hazards that seriously detract from the amenity, and need a rethink. They don't present an obstacle to normal bikes, so if you didn't have kids in tow they're not an issue.

Yes, it's a good amenity and a first for the country, but it needs refinement to become a great amenity.

smacl · 31-01-2012 11:33am

yop wrote: »

And the spin around Glengarrif national park takes you from town to town does it? Not comparing like with like I am afraid.

Nope, but trying to organise a town to town trip on the greenway with young kids, staying at a different place each night, is a nightmare. The local hotels really need to get their collective act together on this, until they do, as a family break the town to town thing is a moot point. There was one offering like this, but it came out at more then twice the price of staying in Newport and cycling from there. A criticism which hopefully will be turned into an opportunity by some wily Mayomen.

TopCat01 · 31-01-2012 11:42am

Yeah, agreed on most of that smacl. I don't think it would cost a lot to make a few amendments to facilitate to towed trailers.

But other aspects, smooth tarmaced surfaces, two lanes, a pedestrial lane, no gates, no sharp turns, and 20/30m either side of the path, could increase the cost significantly, without attracting significant more people.

And even from this thread alone, you see differences in peoples opinion as to what it should include (smooth rolling tarmac v's bumpier single track (and yes, I know these could be alternate routes between a common destination)), but it just shows how hard it is to please everyone.

Chips Lovell · 31-01-2012 11:51am

I've had to card one person already for veering into personal abuse in this debate. Please keep it civil.

Thanks

hardCopy · 31-01-2012 11:52am

I was planning to head down to the Greenway with herself. Both of us would be on road bikes. How bumpy is the surface? Would we be wasting our time on road bikes?

smacl · 31-01-2012 11:59am

Nah, it's very fine gravel, which should be ok, like the stuff they use on flat felt roofs. If you're on slick 23s I'd recommend wider slightly coarser tryes, something like marathons. It's not particularly bumpy, but the going is slower than tarmac. Also plenty of options for renting hybrids down there.

TopCat01 · 31-01-2012 12:16pm

Yeah, you'll get away with road bikes (were a few on it when I was there), but you'd have a lot more comfort on a hybrid.

QueensGael · 31-01-2012 12:16pm

For those of you planning on a trip on the Greenway, this article from Catherine Mack in the IT travel mag might be helpful. It's mostly about electric bikes, but also lists bike hire places and things to do in the area.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/travel/2011/0716/1224300810503.html

As for the surface/gates/grids discussion, I'll hold my counsel until I actually try it out

hardCopy · 31-01-2012 12:28pm

smacl wrote: »

Nah, it's very fine gravel, which should be ok, like the stuff they use on flat felt roofs. If you're on slick 23s I'd recommend wider slightly coarser tryes, something like marathons. It's not particularly bumpy, but the going is slower than tarmac. Also plenty of options for renting hybrids down there.

Sweet, I'm on 25C Gatorskins, she'll be due new tyres anyway for Gaelforce so will get her something similarly robust.

clonmahon · 31-01-2012 12:29pm

Cecil Mor wrote: »

Sometimes I forget that bol@x's cycle bikes too.
If ye don't like it then bugger off back to France with yourself.

My, my don't you people have thin skins. Again this is just personally insulting. I repeat, the French cycleway in the video is a better class of amenity that the Great Western Greenway. Calling me a bollix and suggesting I go back to France will not change that. Deal with issue, play the ball, not the man.

Strangely enough I have moderated my criticism with several positive notes and praised both the GW Greenway and the people who developed it. But none of this seems to make any difference, it seems I am required to forget what I saw in France and just say isn't it a great cycleway. As I wrote earlier typically Irish, point out what is mediocre and you will be personally attacked.

Cecil Mor wrote: »

Ask any member of any hill walking club in this country what its like to deal with some land owners as regards accessing lands, rights of way, Greenways etc. This is at a completely different level compared to what our counterparts have to deal with in other European countries.

I have no doubt this is true, but this does not make the GW Greenway a world class cycle route, this simply proves that existing Irish law mitigates against the development of good cycleways. Perhaps it needs to be changed.

Cecil Mor wrote: »

Chip on your shoulder? You're the one claiming that my Country, and I therefore assume its citizens are master's of mediocrity!!! You've a chip the size of Mayo on your shoulder!
You want to know what mediocrity is? 17 friggin' kgs on a bike and pi*sing on about been unable to gather momentum on gentle climbs or struggling to lift your bike over wee gates. You Poor Pet!
You really have little to moan about:-/

There you go again, more personal attacks. Not only that but you are twisting some of my words and ignoring others. I made clear in an earlier post, that I am not attacking Mayo people. My point about mediocrity was about Ireland in general and not about Mayo.

All I am saying is that the Great Western Greenway is not as is claimed a "World Class Cycleway". It is second rate cycleway. I have provided links to video showing what I believe is a world class cycleway. The best you can come up in reply is calling me a bollix, saying I have chip on my shoulder and telling me to go back to France.

galwaycyclist · 31-01-2012 12:35pm

clonmahon wrote: »

What is really odd about all this is, we build a <snip> cycleway in Enda Kenny's constituency, it is a monster success and Kenny is a cyclist himself, and yet still there is no eureka moment. This is the kind of project we have the means, the skills and the resources needed to do and we now we have a pilot project that says it will pay for itself and still there is no sign of serious movement in the corridors of power. Truly the Irish body politic is ossified.

Unfortunately it appears that there was a "Eureka" moment - somebody got the inspired idea that we can mark cycle lanes in existing hard shoulders and call them "cycleways". And so this is what money is currently getting spent on.

It took ten years to get Fianna Fail and the Greens onside regarding cycling. It looks like we are in for a similar timeframe with Fine Gael and Labour.

clonmahon · 31-01-2012 12:43pm

yop wrote: »

If thats a personal attack then you need to get out a wee bit more

You wrote that I had a chip on my shoulder, in response to my criticism of the Greenway. This comment was clearly personal and in no way addressed the topic of the thread. You resorted to childish name calling rather than addressing the topic. My personal flaws of which there are many is not the topic of this thread.

Now you are telling me I need to get out more often, again my lack of a social life is not the topic of this thread. You have your opinions and I have mine. Why can I not disagree with your in this forum, without you responding with personal comments. Why if you think I am so off the wall and wrong do you not just demolish my arguments, why the name calling.

happytramp · 31-01-2012 12:50pm

Oh for heaven's sake. All this "you called me a name"....."NO, you called ME a name" stuff is ridiculous.

clonmahon · 31-01-2012 1:33pm

yop wrote: »

I would ask where you live and how the cycle ways are doing there?

I live in Cavan and the cycleways here are non existent. The only cyclelane in the whole county is about half a mile of hard shoulder on the Dublin road into Cavan town. This was achieved with some different colored road surfacing and a bit of paint. So I will freely admit that Mayo's cycling infrastructure is absolutely fantastic compared to Cavan.

It would be very accurate to describe Cavan's cycling infrastructure as total crap. I long for the day when it might reach a mediocre standard.

Rob A. Bank · 31-01-2012 5:46pm

There is a lot more to cycling than speed and spandex !

I had a very enjoyable cycle/potter along the Mayo Greenway on a fine day last year and would recommend it to anyone.

The only pity is the lack of cycleways along all the other disused relics of Victorian railway engineering as shown on this map http://www.downrail.co.uk/history/photos/Map_Rail_Ireland_Viceregal_Commission_1906.jpg
(click to enlarge)

Imagine cycling the old West Clare Railway or to Clifden, Burtonport, Carndonagh, Schull or the Kerry peninsulas on old railways/greenways/cycleways !

emtroche · 31-01-2012 6:14pm

Damned if you do, damned if you don't!

smacl · 31-01-2012 6:36pm

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

The only pity is the lack of cycleways along all the other disused relics of Victorian railway engineering as shown on this map http://www.downrail.co.uk/history/photos/Map_Rail_Ireland_Viceregal_Commission_1906.jpg
(click to enlarge)

Imagine cycling the old West Clare Railway or to Clifden, Burtonport, Carndonagh, Schull or the Kerry peninsulas on old railways/greenways/cycleways !

Certainly a great source of cycling infrastructure and potential for tourism. They were doing something similar around Tinahely / Shillelagh last summer. Don't know if it's read yet, but if not it must be close, although it's quite short. It would be interesting to see how much of the land is publicly owned. There's also much more recently closed tracks, such as the Rosslare / Wellingtonbridge / Waterford run that could be viable.

Milan Cobian · 01-02-2012 1:06am

Many canals and rivers are ripe for this kind of treatment. I believe the tow paths along our canals are owned by Waterways Ireland so no access issues and the canals run through some beautiful and remote countryside. A cycle-width tarmac track would not be a major engineering challenge and it would undoubtedly attract many tourists. Ah what might have been with vision...
Instead we spend money on a motorway between Athenry and Tuam, villages with about 3,000 people each... Maybe they can sell that abroad as an attraction, "come to Ireland to view the only inter-village motorway in Europe"!

monument · 01-02-2012 1:13am

As others have said, I'll hold off commenting on the route without seeing it, but...

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

There is a lot more to cycling than speed and spandex !

What is it with this excuse? We can't provide high-quality cycle lanes because they only benefit fast cyclists in "spandex"? Where on earth do people get these ideas?

The Dutch and Danish seem to be able to design and built high quality infrastructure, and it's not for cyclists in "spandex".

Stereomaniac · 01-02-2012 1:18am

I think people on here probably dip in and out of these forums with a passing interest in cycling and are amazed to see how there's so many people who are a lot more passionate about it than they are. Typical of many people in this country, we can feel threatened or inadequate when someone knows more than us about a certain subject. Anyway, I cycle for relaxation.

Failte Ireland report on the Mayo Greenway

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