Pre marriage course

flandabieduzie · 22-04-2021 10:02pm #1

How easy are these to come by or have I any hope of getting one to have a church wedding this side of winter?

Neyite · 23-04-2021 1:37pm

They are online now so yes, it's possible - and because they are online you can search outside of where you live to join one. Plus it's a 5 hr Zoom course rather than 10 hrs in person so there's that...

Have you looked on the website for dates around the country? You can do it as early as you like.

flandabieduzie · 26-04-2021 7:55pm

Neyite wrote: »

They are online now so yes, it's possible - and because they are online you can search outside of where you live to join one. Plus it's a 5 hr Zoom course rather than 10 hrs in person so there's that...

Have you looked on the website for dates around the country? You can do it as early as you like.

Tried accord but they seem all booked up until August.

Am looking at Avalon currently. Going to search for testimonials online.

Does anyone know if their certificates are accepted by priests?

oconnot5 · 26-04-2021 8:50pm

flandabieduzie wrote: »

Tried accord but they seem all booked up until August.

Am looking at Avalon currently. Going to search for testimonials online.

Does anyone know if their certificates are accepted by priests?

Wexford only accepted Accord. Thats strange nothing till August. I booked in Feb for course a month later the start of March. April was booked out then with some available in late May though. I checked every location.

Neyite · 27-04-2021 2:06pm

flandabieduzie wrote: »

Tried accord but they seem all booked up until August.

Am looking at Avalon currently. Going to search for testimonials online.

Does anyone know if their certificates are accepted by priests?

Depends on the priest/diocese. Ours said that the Avalon course (which was always online and shorter and cheaper) was a 'cop out' and 'box ticking'.

So we had to book with Accord. Which they subsequently cancelled due to the lockdown, meaning we missed our wedding date and then restarted wholly online. Totally not a cop out or box ticking I'm sure. :rolleyes:

My sarcasm may stem from the fact that the cost of the course last year was €180 to attend for 3 hrs on a friday night and all day on Saturday (lunch & refreshments included) but the price for the 5hr Zoom Saturday without food is...€180.

lazygal · 27-04-2021 2:20pm

Neyite wrote: »

My sarcasm may stem from the fact that the cost of the course last year was €180 to attend for 3 hrs on a friday night and all day on Saturday (lunch & refreshments included) but the price for the 5hr Zoom Saturday without food is...€180.

I suppose that's the price you pay when you want a catholic wedding.

OP should the priest marrying you not be able to give you this information?

Neyite · 27-04-2021 3:21pm

lazygal wrote: »

I suppose that's the price you pay when you want a catholic wedding.

You do this on every catholic /wedding thread, lol.

So even though I've politely replied to you a couple of times before when you've commented on my catholic wedding, I'll say it again:

I'll suck it up for my partner who wants a catholic wedding. As is his right and he doesn't have to explain his faith to you. Or even me. It's enough that he wants to marry in the church and I respect his beliefs because I'm not an intolerant person

Marriage registration in the UK costs £46GBP. In Ireland the HSE charges us €200.
In the UK the cost of the RCC marriage course is £60GBP. Here it is €180.

I reserve the right to dislike venues and vendors artificially inflating the costs of a service for a wedding, just because it's for a wedding - including the state and the church. While I can afford this, there are many couples who can't afford that kind of money and who are also equally deserving of the legal protections of marriage that you have. If they have a religious faith, then they are also deserving of the right to marry within that faith and while I understand the marriage course to be an important part of the requirement for a RCC wedding, I don't have to like the price they charge for it and I have every right to believe that may act as a financial impediment to people of faith that want and deserve the legal and religious status of marriage.

lazygal · 27-04-2021 3:22pm

I'm sure the church would cover the cost for those couples who financially can't afford the course.

And similarly the state provides exceptional needs payments in the event a couple can't afford the cost of the HSE ceremony.

eviltwin · 27-04-2021 3:25pm

Just out of interest what kind of things are covered on a pre marriage course?

Is it all about the importance of God in your marriage and is there an assumption you will have children and all that or is it stuff that you will actually use?

I don't have a problem with the concept in theory but think it would be very frustrating to have to pay to sit through something that you don't really need.

Nekarsulm · 27-04-2021 3:30pm

Neyite wrote: »

Marriage registration in the UK costs £46GBP. In Ireland the HSE charges us €200.
In the UK the cost of the RCC marriage course is £60GBP. Here it is €180.

Now that we can travel up to 20km into a neighbouring county, I wonder if there are courses in Down, Armagh, Fermanagh etc.
Get married there too, be able to have an actual wedding and a party afterwards......

lazygal · 27-04-2021 3:33pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Just out of interest what kind of things are covered on a pre marriage course?

Is it all about the importance of God in your marriage and is there an assumption you will have children and all that or is it stuff that you will actually use?

I don't have a problem with the concept in theory but think it would be very frustrating to have to pay to sit through something that you don't really need.

https://www.accord.ie/services/marriage-preparation/course-content

eviltwin · 27-04-2021 3:34pm

lazygal wrote: »

https://www.accord.ie/services/marriage-preparation/course-content

God that is mortifying

Neyite · 27-04-2021 3:36pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Just out of interest what kind of things are covered on a pre marriage course?

Is it all about the importance of God in your marriage and is there an assumption you will have children and all that or is it stuff that you will actually use?

I don't have a problem with the concept in theory but think it would be very frustrating to have to pay to sit through something that you don't really need.

Not really sure but a lot of that, plus financial stuff. A friend mentioned that there's a long Q&A at the end for couples - one of the questions she remembers was "would you get annoyed if he was talking to a woman in a pub"

I think it's has plenty of relevance for observant catholics who don't co-habit beforehand though.

lazygal · 27-04-2021 3:37pm

eviltwin wrote: »

God that is mortifying

And state funded, believe it or not.

https://www.accord.ie/about/support-funding

eviltwin · 27-04-2021 3:40pm

Neyite wrote: »

Not really sure but a lot of that, plus financial stuff. A friend mentioned that there's a long Q&A at the end for couples - one of the questions she remembers was "would you get annoyed if he was talking to a woman in a pub"

I think it's has plenty of relevance for observant catholics who don't co-habit beforehand though.

I can see the logic if you are a couple who has never lived together but how many people realistically does that cover?

Looking at the content I would see it as an insult to my intelligence to have to sit through that. I know its the price you pay for a church wedding and has to be done but it must be weird set up for the people giving the course to be talking to couples as though they have never lived together before or haven't already discussed this stuff.

Nekarsulm · 27-04-2021 3:41pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Just out of interest what kind of things are covered on a pre marriage course?

Is it all about the importance of God in your marriage and is there an assumption you will have children and all that or is it stuff that you will actually use?

I don't have a problem with the concept in theory but think it would be very frustrating to have to pay to sit through something that you don't really need.

Bit about budgeting, the importance of making a will, resolution of discord, shared goals, working together...
On this last point we were instructed to join our right hands and, gripping a biro, draw the picture of our ideal house.
I took charge and drew a rectangle about 3 inches high by an inch and a half wide.
There was some resistance from my wife-to-be.
What's wrong? I whispered.
It's very small, she replied.
I'm drawing the front door ! I answered

Honestly, that's all I can remember.
It was the day of the Grand National, and the blokes running it cut off sharply at lunch, so they had time to hit the bookies and have lunch.....

Neyite · 27-04-2021 3:46pm

lazygal wrote: »

I'm sure the church would cover the cost for those couples who financially can't afford the course.

And similarly the state provides exceptional needs payments in the event a couple can't afford the cost of the HSE ceremony.

Why should anyone have to disclose their private financial status in order to access their legal (and religious ) right to marry?

Why not just have the cost of these mandatory requirements set at a reasonably accessible cost for everyone?

From what I can remember, you are not a fan of the RCC nor a member so how are you sure the RCC would pay Accord €180 on behalf of a couple? and if you do have a link to where they say they will, what does a couple need to provide to the diocese /Accord to get the fee waived?

lazygal · 27-04-2021 3:52pm

Neyite wrote: »

Why should anyone have to disclose their private financial status in order to access their legal (and religious ) right to marry?

Why not just have the cost of these mandatory requirements set at a reasonably accessible cost for everyone?

From what I can remember, you are not a fan of the RCC nor a member so how are you sure the RCC would pay Accord €180 on behalf of a couple? and if you do have a link to where they say they will, what does a couple need to provide to the diocese /Accord to get the fee waived?

If they're a decent catholic organisation getting money from the state, surely they wouldn't want a couple to be tempted by sin because they couldn't get married because they couldn't afford a course? Maybe I have a higher opinion of them than you do. You're the one using their services, and complaining about the cost, because you want a particular wedding, not me!

The only cost to get married is €200 in Ireland. Yes, it is cheaper elsewhere but that's irrelevant for an Irish marriage service.

eviltwin · 27-04-2021 3:54pm

lazygal wrote: »

If they're a decent catholic organisation getting money from the state, surely they wouldn't want a couple to be tempted by sin because they couldn't get married because they couldn't afford a course? Maybe I have a higher opinion of them than you do. You're the one using their services, and complaining about the cost, because you want a particular wedding, not me!

The only cost to get married is €200 in Ireland. Yes, it is cheaper elsewhere but that's irrelevant for an Irish marriage service.

They could just scrap the requirement altogether and save everyone the bother.....

lazygal · 27-04-2021 3:55pm

eviltwin wrote: »

They could just scrap the requirement altogether and save everyone the bother.....

Their club, their rules. I suppose you can't blame them for wanting people who want a catholic wedding to sit through some level of catholic marriage stuff before having the big day out.

Neyite · 27-04-2021 4:00pm

eviltwin wrote: »

I can see the logic if you are a couple who has never lived together but how many people realistically does that cover?

Looking at the content I would see it as an insult to my intelligence to have to sit through that. I know its the price you pay for a church wedding and has to be done but it must be weird set up for the people giving the course to be talking to couples as though they have never lived together before or haven't already discussed this stuff.

It's partly that, like you say, we've been together 17 years so a lot of that we've figured it out ourselves, but it's also the intrusiveness of it all - answering questions about our relationship, our feelings in a group setting with other couples on that Zoom course? That's also a very uncomfortable prospect.

lazygal · 27-04-2021 4:03pm

Neyite wrote: »

It's partly that, like you say, we've been together 17 years so a lot of that we've figured it out ourselves, but it's also the intrusiveness of it all - answering questions about our relationship, our feelings in a group setting with other couples on that Zoom course? That's also a very uncomfortable prospect.

I would imagine it is. And not particularly useful for couples like yourselves. Would your partner not ask if this requirement can be dropped so as to respect your feelings about it?

Neyite · 27-04-2021 4:13pm

lazygal wrote: »

If they're a decent catholic organisation getting money from the state, surely they wouldn't want a couple to be tempted by sin because they couldn't get married because they couldn't afford a course? Maybe I have a higher opinion of them than you do. You're the one using their services, and complaining about the cost, because you want a particular wedding, not me!

The only cost to get married is €200 in Ireland. Yes, it is cheaper elsewhere but that's irrelevant for an Irish marriage service.

You are the one who said you were sure that the HSE and RCC would waive those fees for marrying couples who can't afford it, so please provide a link to where you saw that information.

Neyite · 27-04-2021 4:14pm

lazygal wrote: »

I would imagine it is. And not particularly useful for couples like yourselves. Would your partner not ask if this requirement can be dropped so as to respect your feelings about it?

It's mandatory.

lazygal · 27-04-2021 4:23pm

Neyite wrote: »

You are the one who said you were sure that the HSE and RCC would waive those fees for marrying couples who can't afford it, so please provide a link to where you saw that information.

You seem bizarrely annoyed by and invested in my comments.

You can afford it, and as I said I am sure there are supports for those who can't. Like exceptional needs payments. And surely a catholic priest wouldn't refuse to marry a couple because they couldn't afford an Accord course?

Maybe I live in a totally different world, where unless you can pony up the cash priests won't do a catholic ceremony for you.

Mrs OBumble · 27-04-2021 4:30pm

Neyite wrote: »

Why should anyone have to disclose their private financial status in order to access their legal (and religious ) right to marry?

If the state made a full and frank disclose of your financial status *to your spouse-to-be* a condition of marriage, the world would be a far better place.

You would be surprised how many couples, including those who have lived together, have not properly explored some of these basic relational questions before presenting themselves for marriage.

Faith · 27-04-2021 4:30pm

lazygal wrote: »

If they're a decent catholic organisation getting money from the state, surely they wouldn't want a couple to be tempted by sin because they couldn't get married because they couldn't afford a course? Maybe I have a higher opinion of them than you do. You're the one using their services, and complaining about the cost, because you want a particular wedding, not me!

The only cost to get married is €200 in Ireland. Yes, it is cheaper elsewhere but that's irrelevant for an Irish marriage service.

Mod Note: Lazygal, this forum doesn't exist for people to be challenged and belittled about their choices regarding their weddings. You never miss an opportunity to parrot that "Getting married only has to cost €200", and you frequently belittle people who choose to have a Catholic ceremony. Just because people don't do things the way you think they should doesn't give you the right to be condescending about their choices.

Don't post on this thread again, and I'd strongly advise having a think about how your posts come across to others in the event that you're genuinely unaware of how unkind and/or critical they can often be.

eviltwin · 27-04-2021 4:30pm

lazygal wrote: »

You seem bizarrely annoyed by and invested in my comments.

You can afford it, and as I said I am sure there are supports for those who can't. Like exceptional needs payments. And surely a catholic priest wouldn't refuse to marry a couple because they couldn't afford an Accord course?

Maybe I live in a totally different world, where unless you can pony up the cash priests won't do a catholic ceremony for you.

To be fair to the RCC :eek: a pre-marriage course is going to be an investment in the marriage which is the most important part after all. Yes, 200 quid is a lot of money but I'd be a bit dismissive of someone putting on the poor mouth when spending a huge amount on a wedding.

27-04-2021 4:35pm

If the people are practicing catholics and know their priest, and the wedding is to be in the local church, it is not unheard of for the requirement for the course to be waived.

If it sincerely cannot be afforded, it will be paid for (however this is almost never the case, as many multiples of the fee generally get spent on a wedding).

Pen Rua · 27-04-2021 4:49pm

My wife & I did the Accord course just before COVID hit. We found the course okay, but came away feeling it was a little light on actual Catholicism. There's a whole depth of theology, philosophy and tradition in the Sacrament. I fed this back to Accord, and have since met with the facilitator a handful of times to talk about the courses.

The cost was hard to swallow, but in the grand scheme of things for a "normal" wedding (as we had planned pre-COVID) it was a drop in the ocean. And for us, we didn't mind supporting a Catholic organisation.

From what I recall, we did a pre-nuptial enquiry form with the parish priest of where we reside. This happened to be a different priest than the one who did our wedding, and we live in a different county altogether than where we got married. He did not ask to see our cert, and just took us at our word that we did the course. Each diocese would have its own accepted pre-marriage courses. From what I recall, Avalon was accepted in a handful of dioceses. The priest that married us, who knows us well, still urged us to do the Accord course.

We supplemented the Accord course with some other (American) pre-marriage courses which we found somewhat valuable.

For us, the best marriage prep we had was talking to other young, Catholic married couples and hearing from then. Second to that was planning a wedding during COVID.

Neyite · 27-04-2021 6:08pm

eviltwin wrote: »

To be fair to the RCC :eek: a pre-marriage course is going to be an investment in the marriage which is the most important part after all. Yes, 200 quid is a lot of money but I'd be a bit dismissive of someone putting on the poor mouth when spending a huge amount on a wedding.

That's the general perception isn't it -people spend a huge amount on weddings anyway so screw em, they have no right to question the cost of the mandatory costs.

Not everyone spends a huge amount on a wedding. We aren't, though we probably could if we wanted to. I've paid the course fee already, two months ago, so there was never an intention to get out of paying it on my part. I'm even fine with listening to RCC themed presentations for couples. But yeah, being asked intimate questions about our relationship in front of other couples is not something to look forward to either.

Like I've said, we can afford it, but I do remember being absolutely broke when we first got engaged and there's no way that I'd be giving our dire financial information to the parish secretary that went to school with my OH and who is a known gossip which is what you'd have to do in order to get the fee waived.

Teach30 · 27-04-2021 6:58pm

Neyite wrote: »

That's the general perception isn't it -people spend a huge amount on weddings anyway so screw em, they have no right to question the cost of the mandatory costs.

Not everyone spends a huge amount on a wedding. We aren't, though we probably could if we wanted to. I've paid the course fee already, two months ago, so there was never an intention to get out of paying it on my part. I'm even fine with listening to RCC themed presentations for couples. But yeah, being asked intimate questions about our relationship in front of other couples is not something to look forward to either.

Like I've said, we can afford it, but I do remember being absolutely broke when we first got engaged and there's no way that I'd be giving our dire financial information to the parish secretary that went to school with my OH and who is a known gossip which is what you'd have to do in order to get the fee waived.

I’ve done it and it was fine. You know you dont have to answer any questions you don’t feel comfortable with, I don’t see why you would feel you have to, just say you’d rather not. They can’t make you!

We found it very beneficial and interesting. Over all definitely worth it, nice to take some time out together for ourselves and our relationship. I do wish there was a little more on the marriage ceremony itself, like ideas for prayers, readings, music etc but that could just be down to those giving ours.

I didn’t see the fee as a problem, the counsellors & priests volunteer and the booklet and other bits we received were good. It’s worth bearing in mind that many parishes and priests will receive lower funds the last few months with mass being cancelled. Priests rely on these funds as they dont get paid.

qwerty13 · 27-04-2021 7:08pm

Always thought it was a bit bonkers and intrusive myself, but their club, their rules.

However, a friend of mine was on one years ago, and said that she thought another couple on it were about to split after it - they not only disagreed on the topics being discussed (kids being the only one I can definitely recall, but I remember my pal saying that every big life choice discussed seemed to be an issue) - but my friend said this other pair didn’t ever seem to have discussed any of the big stuff between themselves! Shocking! So I guess the course might have done them some good

- even if it did result in a split.

I’d be very uncomfortable discussing that stuff in front of anyone else though.

Neyite · 27-04-2021 7:19pm

Teach30 wrote: »

I’ve done it and it was fine. You know you dont have to answer any questions you don’t feel comfortable with, I don’t see why you would feel you have to, just say you’d rather not. They can’t make you!

We found it very beneficial and interesting. Over all definitely worth it, nice to take some time out together for ourselves and our relationship. I do wish there was a little more on the marriage ceremony itself, like ideas for prayers, readings, music etc but that could just be down to those giving ours.

I didn’t see the fee as a problem, the counsellors & priests volunteer and the booklet and other bits we received were good. It’s worth bearing in mind that many parishes and priests will receive lower funds the last few months with mass being cancelled. Priests rely on these funds as they dont get paid.

Good to know that it's optional to answer.
I said upthread that I imagine it's of good benefit to couples like yourselves who haven't lived together before marriage so good to hear that was the case for you. I'll certainly report back at the end of June from our point of view as to how useful it is for couples in similar set-ups such as myself.

I'm not sure though that ideas on the ceremony would be helpful to include, given that the course is primarily about married life rather than planning a wedding and everyone's idea of a wedding mass is so different. Besides, the mass part is actually optional anyway and a relatively recent addition to the Wedding Rite.

Pen Rua · 27-04-2021 7:29pm

Anything remotely "intimate" or "personal" was strictly between each couple - strictly no group chats about that kind of stuff. There were very limited group discussions to begin with.

It for sure gave us a spring board to discuss other topics pre-marraige. Moreover, it introduced some interesting theories / thoughts such as "family of origin", communication etc.

As I shared before, I would have preferred it to be more Catholic - there was barely a mention of the Catechism or scripture. We did end with a very short prayer and that was the most Catholic part of it. Again, I fed this all back at the time.

I would also say our facilitators (one layman, one lay women and one priest) were excellent.

Teach30 · 27-04-2021 7:32pm

Neyite wrote: »

Good to know that it's optional to answer.
I said upthread that I imagine it's of good benefit to couples like yourselves who haven't lived together before marriage so good to hear that was the case for you. I'll certainly report back at the end of June from our point of view as to how useful it is for couples in similar set-ups such as myself.

I'm not sure though that ideas on the ceremony would be helpful to include, given that the course is primarily about married life rather than planning a wedding and everyone's idea of a wedding mass is so different. Besides, the mass part is actually optional anyway and a relatively recent addition to the Wedding Rite.

Also it clearly states on their website that “at no time during the programme will any couple or individual be placed in a situation that will cause embarrassment or distress”. So no need to worry.

The wedding mass but but could be optional, our priest during course was lovely and left a little time for asking questions about it and a good few did, for those uninterested they could log out during this.

Don’t think it matters if you live together or not. I’ve plenty of friends living together who have completed it and they all were very positive about it and found it useful in some way or another.

Accord are very helpful in general though Ive worked with them in schools and I’m sure if you were anxious ahead of it you should contact them and explain you’d rather not be asked direct questions.

Enjoy it.

Iscreamkone · 29-04-2021 11:11am

Teach30 wrote: »

Also it clearly states on their website that “at no time during the programme will any couple or individual be placed in a situation that will cause embarrassment or distress”. So no need to worry.

The wedding mass but but could be optional, our priest during course was lovely and left a little time for asking questions about it and a good few did, for those uninterested they could log out during this.

Don’t think it matters if you live together or not. I’ve plenty of friends living together who have completed it and they all were very positive about it and found it useful in some way or another.

Accord are very helpful in general though Ive worked with them in schools and I’m sure if you were anxious ahead of it you should contact them and explain you’d rather not be asked direct questions.

Enjoy it.

Accord in schools - now that's just a big :mad: from me.

Gosh_idiots · 03-05-2021 12:53am

flandabieduzie wrote: »

Tried accord but they seem all booked up until August.

Am looking at Avalon currently. Going to search for testimonials online.

Does anyone know if their certificates are accepted by priests?

I was wondering this too!

Toots · 03-05-2021 2:23am

Gosh_idiots wrote: »

I was wondering this too!

You need to check with your priest. Some will only take accord, others will accept Avalon but definitely confirm that before booking anything.

Neyite · 21-06-2021 11:03am

I said I'd report back on the course having completed it.

It was ok in the end - thanks to covid it was a highly condensed course delivered over Zoom - and that worked quite well in that we were muted nearly all the time so doing some couple exercises between ourselves there was privacy that we might not have fully managed had it been held in person like pre-covid courses.

Because it was condensed, the 21 page manual was largely skipped - I suppose couples can read the rest, and do the activities themselves if they wanted. We started at 10am and with lunch and breaks, the actual time spent on the course was roughly 3 hours. So covid did us a favour there!

The priest came in at the end to talk about the wedding ceremony itself, the paperwork required for the church, suitability of music choices and all that sort of thing. He was a nice guy and had a good sense of humour. But even his 40 min module was mostly religion free which suited me just fine.

We didn't get a huge amount out of it, but I really wasn't expecting that anyway. We are together so long that we've already faced and ironed out a lot of the flashpoints that might cause issues in a relationship. I found the stuff about the family of origin interesting, because I had already explored some of that myself before this.

21-06-2021 11:12am

Glad it went well.

I know some priests dread these too because they get told something by the couple that means they cannot get married (previously divorced, the couple consciously intend to not have children (through their own choice when they otherwise could) etc.)

21-06-2021 11:27am

Celeste Shapely Rake wrote: »

Glad it went well.

I know some priests dread these too because they get told something by the couple that means they cannot get married (previously divorced, the couple consciously intend to not have children (through their own choice when they otherwise could) etc.)

If a couple marrying in the Catholic faith choose not to have children and the priest hears this, then they can't marry?

Neyite · 21-06-2021 12:15pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If a couple marrying in the Catholic faith choose not to have children and the priest hears this, then they can't marry?

I've never heard of this either. I know a couple who got married in an RCC and were crystal clear to everyone that they were not ever going to have children for ethical reasons, they still got married.

I suppose technically a hardliner priest could cause you difficulties and be obstructive if you said you aren't having children but I don't think they can outright refuse to marry you based on that. Part of the RCC wedding ceremony is that you agree to raise any children in the marriage in the faith..so maybe that?

21-06-2021 12:33pm

Neyite wrote: »

I've never heard of this either. I know a couple who got married in an RCC and were crystal clear to everyone that they were not ever going to have children for ethical reasons, they still got married.

I suppose technically a hardliner priest could cause you difficulties and be obstructive if you said you aren't having children but I don't think they can outright refuse to marry you based on that. Part of the RCC wedding ceremony is that you agree to raise any children in the marriage in the faith..so maybe that?

In that case their marriage is not valid (in the eyes of the church).

Faith · 21-06-2021 12:36pm

Isn't it part of the Catholic ceremony that you pledge to have children and raise them as Catholics? I remember that being a big factor in why we couldn't bring ourselves to do a Catholic wedding even for show - felt a bit sh*tty to lie during our vows!

edit: Yep, it's one of the core components (https://www.accord.ie/resources/articles/a-sacramental-marriage)

The Marriage Ceremony

The exchange of consent between a man and a woman is an essential part of the marriage ceremony.
Catholic wedding vows are generally preceded by three questions from the priest:
“Have you come here freely and without reservation to give yourselves to each other in marriage?”
“Will you honour each other as man and wife for the rest of your lives?”
“Will you accept children lovingly from God, and bring them up according to the law of Christ and his Church?”

The presence of the priest and of other witnesses testifies to the fact that marriage is part of the Church which recognises the lifelong and exclusive commitment of the bride and groom to each other. Catholic marriage is a vocation and it requires the married couple to accept certain obligations toward each other, the children, and the community.

Toots · 21-06-2021 12:39pm

I remember for ours it was that we would raise our children as Catholic, but it was never said that we had to have kids. I mean if someone wasn't having kids for ethical reasons (say one was a carrier for a genetic disease or something) how is the priest to know they didn't intend to try and adopt?

21-06-2021 12:40pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If a couple marrying in the Catholic faith choose not to have children and the priest hears this, then they can't marry?

Yes, one of the criteria for a marriage to be valid is an "openness to life", i.e. children. In practice this basically means that if a couple could have children (i.e. you could be 80 and still "open to life" and be married validly) but have zero intention to ever have children when they are getting married, their marriage is not valid.

If the priest is told this (worth remembering that the couple preform the sacrament and the priest is a witness) he will tell them they cannot have a valid catholic wedding.

Incidentally, if one of the couple can prove that at the point of marriage the other was not "open to life" it is a slam dunk annulment (which unlike a divorce, basically means that they were never married).

Mrs OBumble · 21-06-2021 12:44pm

Neyite wrote: »

but I don't think they can outright refuse to marry you based on that.

They can, and honest ones will.

Now, they will look for any way to marry you if they can find one. Eg you would raise a child if something happened and you accidentally got pregnant.

But if you totally intend not to have children, then your relationship is not a Catholic marriage, so it's pretty pointless giving you a Catholic wedding ceremony. Far better if you are honest and have a civil / humanist / CoI / whatever ceremony.

21-06-2021 12:51pm

Toots wrote: »

I remember for ours it was that we would raise our children as Catholic, but it was never said that we had to have kids. I mean if someone wasn't having kids for ethical reasons (say one was a carrier for a genetic disease or something) how is the priest to know they didn't intend to try and adopt?

You don't "have" to have children but have to be "open" to it. So for instance you can be infertile and still be "open" to life and can be validly married.

As for choosing not to for "ethical reasons" this really depends and you would probably need a canon lawyer to make a call on that. But I would imagine that if there is an express intent to never conceive on the part of both parties then the marriage would not be valid. If someone cannot conceive that is different, and the marriage would be valid.

If someone is impotent for some reasonand cannot physically have vaginal intercourse they cannot be validly married (although obviously if this disability happens afterwards that does not invalidate the marriage).

Iscreamkone · 21-06-2021 1:54pm

That’s mad, Ted!
Seriously, anyone in 2021 who is still playing these mind games with the Catholic Church needs to have a good look at themselves

21-06-2021 2:01pm

Iscreamkone wrote: »

That’s mad, Ted!
Seriously, anyone in 2021 who is still playing these mind games with the Catholic Church needs to have a good look at themselves

It's not "mind games". If you don't want a catholic wedding don't have one, seems a bad idea to start a marriage off with a dose of dishonesty. To come back to what I said initially, this is why priests can dread dealing with these courses and weddings sometimes because you have non practicing catholics (who may not believe any of it) wanting a catholic wedding, and then the priest ends up the bad guy for saying no when he is informed of something that is an issue. This is why some resist talking too much about the religious aspect and give instead give the couple stuff to look up or read

This is before even getting round to telling bride/groom zilla that they can't have animals (up the aisle on horseback) in the church or drones recording it or goodness knows what else. Ask a priest about it sometimes, can be very funny.

Pre marriage course

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