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Cold Spell - Feb 7th to 13th 2021 - Technical Discussion

1356718

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭kerrycork13


    Nqp15hhu wrote: »
    I’m not convinced the mild air will win out.

    Probability says it will. We probably needed a longer spell on colder weather to be in place and the low coming from the south more so than the south west.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,351 ✭✭✭Cloudio9


    Michelle Dillon on with Claire Byrne there favouring the cold winning


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭piplip87


    Michelle Dillon was on with Clare Byrne there, she said that its looking like the cold could win and we could have the battle continuing into next week.

    Warnings will be issued on Wednesday


  • Registered Users Posts: 718 ✭✭✭Kunta Kinte


    piplip87 wrote: »
    Michelle Dillon was on with Clare Byrne there, she said that its looking like the cold could win and we could have the battle continuing into next week.

    Warnings will be issued on Wednesday

    For where? The whole country or just the east and north?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    For where? The whole country or just the east and north?

    East and North.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭piplip87


    For where? The whole country or just the east and north?

    I don't know. I'd imagine a Yellow nationwide id say all areas will see snow. South and west could see rain fairly quickly after it. and maybe Orange above Dublin/Galway line for eastern half. Just a wild guess my chart reading wouldnt be great


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Nqp15hhu wrote: »
    I’m not convinced the mild air will win out.

    I'm not either,not for a few days anyway and even then,the cold might only be off for a smoke break
    I've seen this before in the 80s a few times


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Gaoth Laidir


    The way things are at the moment, we could see a 24-hour period of continuous snow through northern Leinster and Ulster from Thursday evening.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    piplip87 wrote: »
    I don't know. I'd imagine a Yellow nationwide id say all areas will see snow. South and west could see rain fairly quickly after it. and maybe Orange above Dublin/Galway line for eastern half. Just a wild guess my chart reading wouldnt be great

    In a SE flow,I'd imagine the cold UK surface air would advect into wexford also and kilkenny and carlow


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    The 18z GFS is trending towards ECM. The cold is briefly displaced Sunday, uppers climb to -1c generally but drop to -10c again Monday.

    GFSOPUK18_159_25.png

    Monday morning ^


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,996 ✭✭✭Slashermcguirk


    That was a very encouraging update from Michelle on Claire Byrne, things could get very interesting from Wednesday night!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    Mod Note: Moved some posts, if your post has disappeared, look on the Chat thread for it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Arduach


    Very happy with the first day of the cold spell. Reminded me of the Thursday before snow came on Friday 8th February 1991. Not as cold as the Monday in January 1987 of that deep Siberian easterly. That was some synoptic setup. I could never understand how it was shifted so quickly by the Atlantic the following Saturday.

    Anyway we had an ice day today on the Laois/Carlow/Kilkenny border. At 336m ask the temp never rose above -0.5C.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    Arduach wrote: »
    Anyway we had an ice day today on the Laois/Carlow/Kilkenny border. At 336m ask the temp never rose above -0.5C.

    What station have you? :confused:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Nqp15hhu


    AuntySnow wrote: »
    In a SE flow,I'd imagine the cold UK surface air would advect into wexford also and kilkenny and carlow

    Only if the wind is from the east.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Arduach


    12 January 2010 brought serious frontal snow to us.

    I think this Thursday and Friday has greater potential for larger swathes of the country, and lower altitudes. Really think the cold will have digged in nicely. In my 40 plus years experience this could be a real humdinger.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Arduach


    Danno wrote: »
    What station have you? :confused:

    Old Stevenson screen including a thermometer which has proven very accurate when compared to my neighbours' Davis.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Arduach


    Danno wrote: »
    What station have you? :confused:

    I was driving in the Crettyard, Laois area and, as it turns out, the car thermometer corresponds well with the neighbours' Davis.

    It was 1.5c there at 2pm. I'd expect a little drop each day to Wednesday. Think the Midlands/east/north east will do well.

    I think people saying this easterly isn't as good as others are being a bit nostalgic.

    The hands were always froze off us in wintry weather as children! We're a bit hardier now and don't feel as cold as kids and old people.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,583 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    Verbatim, the 18z GFS holds out a strong prospect of an almost nationwide snow event, but when I check its snow and precip panels, I see signs of underestimation of potential there, so would take the snowfall panels with some caution as they may be underdone (in central counties in particular, they seem to be assigning a much larger snow shield effect to the southeastern hills which I don't think would be valid given the frontal dynamics in play).

    The scenario on offer is this -- cold air is only pushed back very slowly, to about a Waterford to Mayo line, late afternoon Thursday, then it pushes back and regains about a county-wide advantage for most of the evening and overnight, is then pushed back slowly into Friday at which point the event begins to taper off anyway (energy rotating further north for a time) so the cold air is never pushed very far east before it begins to ooze back to the west for another boundary event Sunday night into Monday. Then there's a more rapid breakdown event for later in the week but with the progressive bias of the GFS in mind, that could be just another boundary skirmish and not a total bye-bye to cold as depicted.

    With this first event, potential appears to be well into the 10-20 cm range and could end up 20-30 cm closer to the event. Cold is very well entrenched and the surface flow would be from the southeast across 8 C ocean surfaces all the way back to the Channel so you would think the lower mid-level atmosphere would be juiced up nicely as the Atlantic front tries to push in against it all. The snow changing to rain scenario probably applies more to West Munster and southwest Connacht than other regions. If this model depiction is anywhere near accurate it will be a very significant snowfall and fairly prolonged, it could go for 24-36 hours in some places.

    Another feature worth tracking is that now there's a more robust push of very cold uppers into Ulster by Wednesday that (with short sea crossing in northeast low level flow) could push temperatures down to -3 to -5 C in Ulster, and almost that cold spreading into parts of the midlands and Leinster as a result, especially if there's any snow cover laid down on Tuesday prior to this starting. (-13 C 850s are shown intruding from Scotland into east Ulster by Wednesday 12z).

    Certainly some similarity to the dynamics of the Jan 1982 snowfall event in play here.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Nqp15hhu


    It was <-10c 850hPa here today and we still rose to 2c, so I am not convinced -13c would deliver anything lower than 0c during the day. Unless cloudy

    It will be interesting to see what we max out at tomorrow due to the lower minimums.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,017 ✭✭✭TheMilkyPirate


    Hopefully the GFS has support in the morning


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    Nqp15hhu wrote: »
    It was <-10c 850hPa here today and we still rose to 2c, so I am not convinced -13c would deliver anything lower than 0c during the day. Unless cloudy

    It will be interesting to see what we max out at tomorrow due to the lower minimums.

    CFSR_1_2010122112_2.png

    Ballyhaise only maxed out at -9.4c under this.

    Upper air temperatures are not a rule over temperatures lower down.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Nqp15hhu


    Danno wrote: »
    CFSR_1_2010122112_2.png

    Ballyhaise only maxed out at -9.4c under this.

    Upper air temperatures are not a rule over temperatures lower down.

    I understand, I have seen a few of those days here in 2010 and know we had similar highs (-11.3c in Northern Ireland). However, that’s after days of cold pooling.

    Cold air here does not usually mix down to the surface immediately, there can also be fairly steep lapse rates with these continental sourced systems. Most are forecasting highs of 1c on Wednesday. (I have witnessed a 2c high with -13/-14 850hPa).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Arduach


    Danno wrote: »
    Ballyhaise only maxed out at -9.4c under this.  Upper air temperatures are not a rule over temperatures lower down.

    I often wonder as we approach mid February (I know today is only the 8th) does a stronger sun, longer day (even though it was cloudy) mean the rule of thumb of adding 8c to the upper temperature goes out the window? Do we have to add 10c?

    That Ballyhaise temp was taken around the solstice?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Arduach


    Nqp15hhu wrote: »
    I understand, I have seen a few of those days here in 2010 and know we had similar highs (-11.3c in Northern Ireland). However, that’s after days of cold pooling.

    Cold air here does not usually mix down to the surface immediately, there can also be fairly steep lapse rates with these continental sourced systems. Most are forecasting highs of 1c on Wednesday. (I have witnessed a 2c high with -13/-14 850hPa).

    That makes sense.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 358 ✭✭YanSno


    Some models are over cooking the front on Thursday into Friday. ICON precipitation chart looks very light while it fizzle out as it reaches the Midlands, most likely solution. I'm not saying it will not snow but nothing too significant and nowhere near any previous memorable event.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Nqp15hhu


    This is the sounding for Wednesday for here. We may get an ice day if it remains cloudy or is windy.

    VtY38vQ.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,583 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    I'm thinking colder air from Scotland will seep in during the period Tuesday night to mid-day Wednesday, but the -3 to -5 is more of a prediction for inland south Ulster than the north coast which would probably stay closer to freezing.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'm thinking colder air from Scotland will seep in during the period Tuesday night to mid-day Wednesday, but the -3 to -5 is more of a prediction for inland south Ulster than the north coast which would probably stay closer to freezing.

    I didn't want to say it,but your jan 1982 comment earlier
    I've been thinking that for the past few days about tbis


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Nqp15hhu


    Well today the sub zero air stayed at 250m-300m. Think we would need -14/-15c 850hPa to guarantee an ice day widespread, with a cold airmass that has only just came through.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 672 ✭✭✭TTLF
    save the trouble and jazz it up


    Might be a silly question, but since It's about the Thursday's low and possible snow event I think It's appropriate to ask here, what counties specifically "In the East" would be experiencing possible Orange level? (Kind of doubt red warning just sceptical about it.) Also I'm guessing "North Leinster" spans from Dublin up to Louth incl Meath?

    Thanks :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,381 ✭✭✭lolie


    Bbc forecast fairly confident of mider air over ireland during the weekend, be interesting to see if they still think that in the morning forecast.
    oznor-COQR.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,951 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    Downgrades all round this morning, less snow Thursday into Friday and then milder air wins out for weekend, unusually consistent across the models too!

    Could still change but bad morning .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,219 ✭✭✭pad199207


    Villain wrote: »
    Downgrades all round this morning, less snow Thursday into Friday and then milder air wins out for weekend, unusually consistent across the models too!

    Could still change but bad morning .

    I couldn’t even bring myself to post. Woeful start to the day. Waiting for 12z to give up the ghost but it’s certainly solid across the main models.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,150 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    Villain wrote: »
    ....milder air wins....

    It is our 'default'. It usually does win in these situations!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Humberto Salazar


    Ah well there's always next winter. Models swift in bringing Atlantic in this morning. No one ever bets long term against it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,996 ✭✭✭Slashermcguirk


    Hardly, met Éireann as of an hour ago going for snow until Saturday. Stop posting nonsense
    Ah well there's always next winter. Models swift in bringing Atlantic in this morning. No one ever bets long term against it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,951 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    Hardly, met Éireann as of an hour ago going for snow until Saturday. Stop posting nonsense

    The latest models have just updated, expect forecasts to change, it can still change but when UKMO, GFS and ECM all move the same way it would be some change to see them flip back.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,996 ✭✭✭Slashermcguirk


    For Saturday I would assume it could change alright, as long as there is snow Thursday and Friday I am not bothered about the weekend. I would be surprised if met Éireann would go on Claire Byrne show last night to say big snow unless they were certain about the near forecast like Thursday. Weekend was always going to be a battleground
    Villain wrote: »
    The latest models have just updated, expect forecasts to change, it can still change but when UKMO, GFS and ECM all move the same way it would be some change to see them flip back.


  • Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭Zogabomb


    Villain wrote: »
    The latest models have just updated, expect forecasts to change, it can still change but when UKMO, GFS and ECM all move the same way it would be some change to see them flip back.

    That is in regard to the weekend though, Thursday still looks interesting, no?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭Snowbiee21


    Zogabomb wrote: »
    That is in regard to the weekend though, Thursday still looks interesting, no?

    No. ECM GFS UKMO say no


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Humberto Salazar


    Hardly, met Éireann as of an hour ago going for snow until Saturday. Stop posting nonsense

    It's not going to 'snow until Saturday'. We have a risk of frontal snow for Thursday and Friday yes, and then according to ECM, not me, the mild push gets through during Saturday. I post facts not nonsense. You can dispute the facts if you wish.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,951 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    Zogabomb wrote: »
    That is in regard to the weekend though, Thursday still looks interesting, no?

    Oh still snow widely Thursday and into Friday but amounts also reduced a little.


  • Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭Zogabomb


    Snowbiee21 wrote: »
    No. ECM GFS UKMO say no

    Not true for Thursday and into Friday for the North and East at least


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,996 ✭✭✭Slashermcguirk


    You are talking nonsense, you said winter over when a lot of snow is due Thursday and Friday. If winter was over the mild would be arriving now. The weekend is far less of a big deal if a lot of people get snow between now and Friday. Just dismissing that is ridiculous
    It's not going to 'snow until Saturday'. We have a risk of frontal snow for Thursday and Friday yes, and then according to ECM, not me, the mild push gets through during Saturday. I post facts not nonsense. You can dispute the facts if you wish.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,219 ✭✭✭pad199207


    Given all the erratic behaviour of the models of recent there still is the chance that this could be just a big wobble by the models overnight and may be corrected later today but it’s a smidgen.

    Just don’t call it until the 12z come out, can’t stress that enough. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭Snowbiee21


    Zogabomb wrote: »
    Not true for Thursday and into Friday for the North and East at least

    In terms of precipitation rates, a definite downgrade


  • Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭Zogabomb


    Snowbiee21 wrote: »
    In terms of precipitation rates, a definite downgrade

    Maybe so but still interesting. Definite snow potential


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,996 ✭✭✭Slashermcguirk


    Just read your own post, usual negative sensationalist nonsense. “There is always next winter”and.....”models swiftly bring in the Atlantic this morning”’...........Talk about misleading when that is likely on Friday or Saturday.
    Ah well there's always next winter. Models swift in bringing Atlantic in this morning. No one ever bets long term against it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 471 ✭✭KingdomRushed


    There is a near total flip if not total flip to milder in the GFS ensembles. I can't see any snow risk post Friday myself now. The scatter is gone. I presume no more scandi highs developing in the set.

    Gfs operational is all rain too from Friday night onwards. Thereafter lots of potent rain systems move through leading to likely flooding concerns especially for Munster.

    I have to say after the promise of a 2-4 day whiteout it is disappointing. At least we will still see some frontal snow Thursday, but don't snooze on it, it won't be around long


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