Gardaí ANPR system to be running by end of 2018

CatInABox · 13-11-2018 11:28am #1

The Gardaí are close to setting up a new ANPR system for catching drivers without insurance, which should be operational by the end of the year. Great news in my opinion, insurance-less drivers are a menace on the roads.

See here.

I'd assume that this system will eventually be expanded, so that they can detect cars without motor tax as well. The odd part about it is that it seems to be only handheld devices so far, I know from experience in the UK that the police and local councils have vans that drive around with ANPR cameras scanning cars.

Now the guards just actually have to use them instead of just sitting in their station, it's been a year since I saw a checkpoint anywhere.

Macy0161 · 13-11-2018 11:37am

CatInABox wrote: »

Now the guards just actually have to use them instead of just sitting in their station, it's been a year since I saw a checkpoint anywhere.

I've seen them fairly regularly. A complete waste of resources. Having it hand held is also a waste of resources imo - I don't see why it can't be civilian operated. And should do tax, NCT and disqualified drivers too.

I'll try to take the positives, and hopefully this is the long over due start of more automatic enforcement. We badly need more cameras, for speeding (including average speed) and also other offences such as red lights, bus lanes, yellow boxes, illegal parking.

end of the road · 13-11-2018 12:41pm

Macy0161 wrote: »

imo - I don't see why it can't be civilian operated.

because ultimately it is law enforcement, and an actual law enforcer will have access to the relevant systems that are needed to make this work.

markc1184 · 13-11-2018 12:44pm

Does this mean the insurance companies are finally getting on board and making their databases available?

CiniO · 13-11-2018 1:04pm

What's the point in that considering current insurance system allows insurers to only cover named drivers. So fact that car shows as insured in anpr databasez doesn't mean that actual driver is insured.

Macy0161 · 13-11-2018 1:06pm

end of the road wrote: »

because ultimately it is law enforcement, and an actual law enforcer will have access to the relevant systems that are needed to make this work.

Doesn't seem to be contentious with speed enforcement, given the state is able to outsource it to GoSafe. This should be the same.

Henry Ford III · 13-11-2018 1:09pm

ANPR is nothing new.

coylemj · 13-11-2018 1:18pm

CiniO wrote: »

What's the point in that considering current insurance system allows insurers to only cover named drivers. So fact that car shows as insured in anpr databasez doesn't mean that actual driver is insured.

Cinio, the only solution to that is for RFID chips in humans to be mandatory so the cops can then scan your arm and you will show up as insured or not.

end of the road · 13-11-2018 1:35pm

Macy0161 wrote: »

Doesn't seem to be contentious with speed enforcement, given the state is able to outsource it to GoSafe. This should be the same.

the state shouldn't be able to outsource speeding either. why should this be the same? why should law enforcement be outsourced to private companies? i'd doubt it ultimately works out cheaper and even then, cheap isn't always best and the attempts by government to do things cheap rather then properly is why we have a rampant anti-social behaviour problem among many other issues.

Macy0161 · 13-11-2018 2:15pm

end of the road wrote: »

the state shouldn't be able to outsource speeding either. why should this be the same? why should law enforcement be outsourced to private companies? i'd doubt it ultimately works out cheaper and even then, cheap isn't always best and the attempts by government to do things cheap rather then properly is why we have a rampant anti-social behaviour problem among many other issues.

I was going with Civilian rather than necessarily outsourced. But my point is we could have Gardai doing proper policing of things like anti-social behaviour, rather than manning a camera.

We're just swapping one inefficient/ little value added system for another not quite as inefficient system if it's a handheld device.

BIGT4464 · 13-11-2018 2:16pm

Macy0161 wrote: »

I've seen them fairly regularly. A complete waste of resources. Having it hand held is also a waste of resources imo - I don't see why it can't be civilian operated. And should do tax, NCT and disqualified drivers too.

I'll try to take the positives, and hopefully this is the long over due start of more automatic enforcement. We badly need more cameras, for speeding (including average speed) and also other offences such as red lights, bus lanes, yellow boxes, illegal parking.

Can I add tailgating to your list?

Graniteville · 13-11-2018 2:24pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Now the guards just actually have to use them instead of just sitting in their station, it's been a year since I saw a checkpoint anywhere.

Large number of multi agency checkpoints that operate for several hours at a time on major road including motorways.

ANPR checks take place without most people noticing - usually on the on ramps of motorways and garda only is seen when they go to stop someone.

The day of the standard checkpoint is all but gone and replaced with technology - why inconvenience thousands of law abiding motorists?

jimmycrackcorm · 13-11-2018 2:39pm

end of the road wrote:

the state shouldn't be able to outsource speeding either. why should this be the same? why should law enforcement be outsourced to private companies? i'd doubt it ultimately works out cheaper and even then, cheap isn't always best and the attempts by government to do things cheap rather then properly is why we have a rampant anti-social behaviour problem among many other issues.

Why should we have guards tied up sitting in vans behind cameras all day long instead of being available for significant crime detection.

It's also cheaper to outsource and more effective than tying up Garda overtime budgets.

amcalester · 13-11-2018 2:45pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Why should we have guards tied up sitting in vans behind cameras all day long instead of being available for significant crime detection.

It's also cheaper to outsource and more effective than tying up Garda overtime budgets.

Because it could be construed as progress to have such duties either outsourced or carried out civilians.

Can't have that.

CiniO · 13-11-2018 2:54pm

coylemj wrote: »

Cinio, the only solution to that is for RFID chips in humans to be mandatory so the cops can then scan your arm and you will show up as insured or not.

Tbh I can see much simpler solution which is actually used in most places in Europe or even around the world.

end of the road · 13-11-2018 3:06pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Why should we have guards tied up sitting in vans behind cameras all day long instead of being available for significant crime detection.

It's also cheaper to outsource and more effective than tying up Garda overtime budgets.

because sitting behind a camera involved in the act of law enforcement fits crime detection as much as anything else the gardai would be doing in persuit of crime detection. there is room for gardai to be detecting all crime, if only they were funded properly.
actually i would be surprised if it is cheaper to outsource long term for things like this once profits come into the equation, as for more effective, well not really given we don't actually get 100% of the income like we would if the gardai were doing it.

listermint · 13-11-2018 3:36pm

end of the road wrote: »

because sitting behind a camera involved in the act of law enforcement fits crime detection as much as anything else the gardai would be doing in persuit of crime detection. there is room for gardai to be detecting all crime, if only they were funded properly.
actually i would be surprised if it is cheaper to outsource long term for things like this once profits come into the equation, as for more effective, well not really given we don't actually get 100% of the income like we would if the gardai were doing it.

This system could be put together with a phone App and a Secure link to database via an API. it could be put together in weeks and would certainly not be cheaper than outsourcing.

There is a severe lack of outside the box thinking in Civil Service.

Every guard has a smart phone and app on it and their camera places in the dash of every squad car. This is basic stuff. Any IOS / Android developer could put this together for very little.

Macy0161 · 13-11-2018 3:49pm

Graniteville wrote: »

The day of the standard checkpoint is all but gone and replaced with technology - why inconvenience thousands of law abiding motorists?

Not in Wicklow anyway. Either myself or the wife have come across them most months this year. And just the standard two gardai, torch on the discs type, not the multi agency one's.

Graniteville · 14-11-2018 12:36am

end of the road wrote: »

the state shouldn't be able to outsource speeding either. why should this be the same? why should law enforcement be outsourced to private companies? .

Neither speeding nor law enforcement is outsourced.

The operation of the speed cameras are outsourced, but that's purely the setup and monitoring of the equipment. The picture file is sent to thurles where a Garda reviews all captured images and imposes the fines.

CiniO · 14-11-2018 12:58am

OSI wrote: »

You're right. They should do nothing at all, that way they don't have to worry about edge cases at all.

Edge cases????

I'm actually pretty certain that majority of "driving uninsured" cases are those where car is actually insured, but driver isn't.
Cases where some chancer buys a car and drives it totally uninsured would be minority.

bk · 14-11-2018 11:36am

end of the road wrote: »

because ultimately it is law enforcement, and an actual law enforcer will have access to the relevant systems that are needed to make this work.

But why do we have only one police force? We are pretty unique in this sense. Most countries have many different police forces who focus on different areas of law enforcement.

Most mainland European countries have a local, "city police", normally unarmed, who focus on things like parking offences, speeding, red lights, direct traffic, etc. Basically supped up traffic wardens. And then they have a national or federal police who deal with serious crimes.

And we even sort of have this here, we have traffic wardens and ticket checkers who can issue parking fines and fixed penalty fines. Why do we have them so? Why don't we get the Gardai to do parking fines and ticket checks so? Answer: Because it would be a dumb ass waste of Garda resources that should be focused on more serious crimes.

I will say that the Gardai doing ANPR checks themselves is useful. If you ever watch those UK police shows, where they have ANPR mounted in the police cars, ANPR can often turn up stolen cars or even lack of insurance often leads them to finding drugs or other more serious crimes (e.g. a wanted person, etc.).

But it is dumb that this is hand held and not mounted in the cars like in the UK. Hopefully this is just a first step.

But also there should be no fear or issue with civil organisations or a new police force (transport police) getting powers to police non violent crime.

Graniteville · 14-11-2018 2:22pm

bk wrote: »

I will say that the Gardai doing ANPR checks themselves is useful. If you ever watch those UK police shows, where they have ANPR mounted in the police cars, ANPR can often turn up stolen cars or even lack of insurance often leads them to finding drugs or other more serious crimes (e.g. a wanted person, etc.).

But it is dumb that this is hand held and not mounted in the cars like in the UK. Hopefully this is just a first step.

But also there should be no fear or issue with civil organisations or a new police force (transport police) getting powers to police non violent crime.

This is separate from the anpr system that is in the majority of roads policing cars. That system is to get all insurance details in the next year or so.

I think this handheld system has a different 'list' that has known uninsured drivers / cars and those banned from driving

bk · 14-11-2018 2:46pm

Graniteville wrote: »

This is separate from the anpr system that is in the majority of roads policing cars. That system is to get all insurance details in the next year or so.

That is great, glad to hear it.

Graniteville wrote: »

I think this handheld system has a different 'list' that has known uninsured drivers / cars and those banned from driving

Why wouldn't the road policing cars not have the same list?

I can see a handheld being a useful addition for roadblocks to check for uninsured drivers, which would require talking to a person and not just ANPR.

Either way I'm glad to hear they are getting this tech.

ohnonotgmail · 14-11-2018 3:43pm

CiniO wrote: »

Edge cases????

I'm actually pretty certain that majority of "driving uninsured" cases are those where car is actually insured, but driver isn't.
Cases where some chancer buys a car and drives it totally uninsured would be minority.

If our insurance system insured drivers and not vehicles then ANPR would be of no use at all.

GM228 · 16-11-2018 2:59pm

Graniteville wrote: »

I think this handheld system has a different 'list' that has known uninsured drivers / cars and those banned from driving

There are no different lists, rather the new centralised storage system is now linked to ANPR (including the mobile apps and soon to come mobile devices) and soon the insurance companies which will be a live updating system.

All ANPR systems weather they be the fixed in car units or new mobile devices are live linked to the system.

ED E · 16-11-2018 5:07pm

Boston PD have been rolling with 5 in car ANPR cams for the guts of a decade. Seriously playing catchup.

What we need is a team of 20 civies in Castlebar (Garda IS) and a fleet of gantry cameras. Undocumented car jumps on the M7 and within 5km has triggered a beep. Castlebar hops on tetra to the local RPU and instructs them that theres a Blue 09 Astra on MH plates headed east passing junction X presently.

Hunter killer. Its not rocket science. 44 forces in the UK are doing this yonks.

16-11-2018 5:16pm

Fixed and mobile ANPR has been in the UK for over a decade, so yes serious catchup.

It would be good to see the end of the random "document checking" checkpoints, they generally just cause congestion.
I almost got rear-ended waiting at one of those recently as the queue had stretched back to a bend!

Generally, if the documentation on the vehicle is legit, the driver is also legit, the opposite is also usually true as well.
But the traffic cop can usually "suss" out the ones that look odd and can stop them at will.

Much more efficient policing

Markcheese · 16-11-2018 6:30pm

The Gardaí already use anpr with years, it's likely the system could do with an upgrade and a bit more co-ordination... So this is announcing new hand held readers? And access to an insured vehicle database?
Any chance they'd stick a lot more fixed anpr cameras on gantries? And at strategic points, bridges, towns, Ect...
Probably be worth sticking them in speed camera vans too..

GM228 · 16-11-2018 6:40pm

Markcheese wrote: »

The Gardaí already use anpr with years, it's likely the system could do with an upgrade and a bit more co-ordination... So this is announcing new hand held readers? And access to an insured vehicle database?
Any chance they'd stick a lot more fixed anpr cameras on gantries? And at strategic points, bridges, towns, Ect...
Probably be worth sticking them in speed camera vans too..

Gardaí have been working with TII, port authorities, local authorities and private car parks to integrate ANPR into their CCTV systems for some time now and are looking at introducing fixed ANPR at strategic locations around the country.

The CCTV integration project was due to start going live late last year but is still an on going project.

L1011 · 16-11-2018 6:45pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Fixed and mobile ANPR has been in the UK for over a decade, so yes serious catchup.

It would be good to see the end of the random "document checking" checkpoints, they generally just cause congestion.
I almost got rear-ended waiting at one of those recently as the queue had stretched back to a bend!

Generally, if the documentation on the vehicle is legit, the driver is also legit, the opposite is also usually true as well.
But the traffic cop can usually "suss" out the ones that look odd and can stop them at will.

Much more efficient policing

Those checkpoints are rarely if ever there to actually check documents. They're looking for someone/thing

16-11-2018 6:49pm

L1011 wrote: »

Those checkpoints are rarely if ever there to actually check documents. They're looking for someone/thing

Almost very checkpoint I have ever been stopped at has been a disc or document check.

Only once was it for a random drink check.

L1011 · 16-11-2018 6:56pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Almost very checkpoint I have ever been stopped at has been a disc or document check.

Only once was it for a random drink check.

They aren't going to tell you "we're looking at discs as a distraction" now are they?

The doc check is cover, they're actually looking for a wanted vehicle, driver, passenger etc

Hence why those Facebook groups are actually hampering real policing as well as letting tax evaders / the uninsured away with it

n97 mini · 16-11-2018 7:51pm

Stopped recently at a random checkpoint. Didn't realise my tax was 2.5 months out as I was abroad for a few months and it expired while I was away. They noticed, hesitated, but said nothing and sent us on our way.

Gardaí ANPR system to be running by end of 2018

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