Italexit. Proposals for new Italian currency gaining traction

meeeeh · 08-08-2019 11:36pm

Since 1947 Italian governments on average lasted 13 months and this one is a month older. It's an impressive achievement.

Anyway apparently government reshuffle with more Liga ministers is more likely. Anyway I very much doubt Salvini could create government by himself. Berlusconi as far as I remember needed coalition governments and he had media empire behind him to peddle his truth.

Nody · 11-08-2019 2:12pm

And time to pour salt on all the salty brexiteers dreams again...

"The idea of leaving Europe, leaving the euro has never been in the pipeline," the leader of Italy's League, Matteo Salvini, told reporters at a rally near Matera.

Sorry; not even Italy is stupid enough to follow UK out of EU.

cryptocurrency · 14-08-2019 12:40am

Nody wrote: »

And time to pour salt on all the salty brexiteers dreams again...

Sorry; not even Italy is stupid enough to follow UK out of EU.

Was he talking to the markets or you? Italy will do what is right for them and if they want to back Brussels into a corner they are going the right way about it with the mixed signals on leaving.

They say the UK leaving is like 19 smaller nations leaving at once, and with Italy a $2 trillion plus economy to May as well add a good few more to that 19. Italy after Brexit will put the EU in the dustbin of history. It won’t get up from that, that’s their bargaining chip.

Podge_irl · 14-08-2019 9:10am

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Was he talking to the markets or you? Italy will do what is right for them and if they want to back Brussels into a corner they are going the right way about it with the mixed signals on leaving.

There is nothing even remotely mixed about their signals. They are unequivocally stating they are not leaving.

McGiver · 14-08-2019 12:51pm

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Nody wrote: »

And time to pour salt on all the salty brexiteers dreams again...

Sorry; not even Italy is stupid enough to follow UK out of EU.

Was he talking to the markets or you? Italy will do what is right for them and if they want to back Brussels into a corner they are going the right way about it with the mixed signals on leaving.

They say the UK leaving is like 19 smaller nations leaving at once, and with Italy a $2 trillion plus economy to May as well add a good few more to that 19. Italy after Brexit will put the EU in the dustbin of history. It won’t get up from that, that’s their bargaining chip.

Italy will back "Brussels" into the corner, good one. You know, they'll corner themselves as well? Italy is "the Brussels".

pixelburp · 14-08-2019 2:19pm

Even if there were any realistic notions of Italy leaving the EU, no country is going to countenance it, until Brexit is 'finished' and the full effects of the UK leaving are seen - both economically and socially. This is uncharted territory and while the manner in which the UK is leaving can be called chaotic and asinine, all indicators show it to be an economic disaster in waiting. It's not for nothing the likes of National Rally dropped 'leave the EU' from their manifestos. It's increasingly shown to be a lunatic decision.

Italy leaving? Pull the other one, that country leads by chaos - see its average 13 month governments for goodness sake - and knows full well it's bolstered by its presence in the EU, not hampered.

It has little historical arrogance of empire to make it believe it has the clout to go it alone.

DrumSteve · 14-08-2019 3:12pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Even if there were any realistic notions of Italy leaving the EU, no country is going to countenance it, until Brexit is 'finished' and the full effects of the UK leaving are seen - both economically and socially. This is uncharted territory and while the manner in which the UK is leaving can be called chaotic and asinine, all indicators show it to be an economic disaster in waiting. It's not for nothing the likes of National Rally dropped 'leave the EU' from their manifestos. It's increasingly shown to be a lunatic decision.

Italy leaving? Pull the other one, that country leads by chaos - see its average 13 month governments for goodness sake - and knows full well it's bolstered by its presence in the EU, not hampered.

It has little historical arrogance of empire to make it believe it has the clout to go it alone.

uh... the roman empire, maybe?

pixelburp · 14-08-2019 3:28pm

DrumSteve wrote: »

uh... the roman empire, maybe?

Well apart from the fact that it wasn't always based in Italy, the Roman Empire hasn't been in existence in about 1000-1500 years. I'd have thought it obvious I was referring to modern empires that only recently (ie, in the last 100 years) fragmented. Empires that for all intents and purposes operated under economic and social principles genetically similar to our own.

And IIRC, Italy only reformed as a country in 1861 (can't remember if that included the Papal States or not), and not with the same Empire building intention that Germany later showed 10 years later. A lot of European nations are relatively modern constructs - like I said, many don't have the same longstanding historical baggage others (the UK) would have.

Foghladh · 14-08-2019 10:19pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Well apart from the fact that it wasn't always based in Italy, the Roman Empire hasn't been in existence in about 1000-1500 years. I'd have thought it obvious I was referring to modern empires that only recently (ie, in the last 100 years) fragmented. Empires that for all intents and purposes operated under economic and social principles genetically similar to our own.

And IIRC, Italy only reformed as a country in 1861 (can't remember if that included the Papal States or not), and not with the same Empire building intention that Germany later showed 10 years later. A lot of European nations are relatively modern constructs - like I said, many don't have the same longstanding historical baggage others (the UK) would have.

Libya, Eritrea, Ethiopia and Albania were all assimilated into the New Italian Empire. They tried Greece before the Germans stepped in. It's not accurate to say that they didn't have the same Empire ambitions as the Germans. They certainly did, they just weren't as good at it

pixelburp · 14-08-2019 10:37pm

Foghladh wrote: »

Libya, Eritrea, Ethiopia and Albania were all assimilated into the New Italian Empire. They tried Greece before the Germans stepped in. It's not accurate to say that they didn't have the same Empire ambitions as the Germans. They certainly did, they just weren't as good at it

what a list of conquests lol. Wasn't Ethiopia a bust? Fair enough, they weren't without designs on expansion, their colour was on the map of Africa true - the original point was that I don't feel that embedded presumption of primacy exists in the mindset of our continental neighbours as much as it does with the UK, whose proponents of Brexit seem to exist in a fantasy of empire now gone. And if they did, Brexit has been a cold shower to disabuse those of these notions.

Kermit.de.frog · 20-08-2019 4:57pm

I see the never ending clown car that is Italian politics continues with the PM resigning today.

I wish they would leave the EU along with Greece personally. But I guess for the moment we are stuck with it.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 20-08-2019 5:01pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I see the never ending clown car that is Italian politics continues with the PM resigning today.

I wish they would leave the EU along with Greece personally. But I guess for the moment we are stuck with it.

Italy and Britain leaving would be a disaster for Europe.

Thrashssacre · 20-08-2019 9:09pm

Be interesting to see how this plays out seems it’s either a 5 star/PD government or if elections were triggered a potential Lega/Forza Italia/brothers of Italy government with Salvini as pm. Mental stuff altogether.

micosoft · 21-08-2019 8:46am

meeeeh wrote: »

The mess that is in Italy has a potential to cost us all dearly. If Italy needed a bailout it would be huge in comparison to Ireland and Greece. To me cheering something like that would be incredibly dumb but knock yourself out.

Italy has allegedly been on the verge of collapse since 1947. There is nothing spectacularly new about it's debt nor is it particularly onerous. The thing is aside from the vast uncounting of the Italian black economy the fundamentals aren't bad. Unlike the UK Italy makes things and exports things that people want...
- Second largest exporter in the EU.
- 40 Billion per annum Trade Surplus.
- HQ of absolute world leaders in manufacturing, food and textiles. Fiat owns Chrysler for example. Generali in insurance.
- Higher growth than the UK - even Warren Buffet sees Italy as a long term investment.

Not to say Italy does not have issues with North South divide and government weakness but that has been true since the unification of Italy in 1861.

How many times do naysayers have to be proven wrong. The collapse of the Euro and EU and Italy have been promoted so many times since 2008 and yet it has not happened. Cherry picking some facts as being "new" to recast the story does not make it truer. To be honest the outlook of Italy is far more positive than the UK at this time.

micosoft · 21-08-2019 8:50am

Jim2007 wrote: »

Except that that is not what is happening.

Exactly. I wish people who take isolated "facts" that sound "truthy" from the internets and take the spin put around them as "the truth" would go off and do an online course in political economy to just get the basics right. The Internet and social media have delivered a fleet of Dunning Krugers that are easily think they can interpret complex things with a twitter post.

meeeeh · 21-08-2019 9:29am

micosoft wrote: »

Italy has allegedly been on the verge of collapse since 1947. There is nothing spectacularly new about it's debt nor is it particularly onerous. The thing is aside from the vast uncounting of the Italian black economy the fundamentals aren't bad. Unlike the UK Italy makes things and exports things that people want...
- Second largest exporter in the EU.
- 40 Billion per annum Trade Surplus.
- HQ of absolute world leaders in manufacturing, food and textiles. Fiat owns Chrysler for example. Generali in insurance.
- Higher growth than the UK - even Warren Buffet sees Italy as a long term investment.

Not to say Italy does not have issues with North South divide and government weakness but that has been true since the unification of Italy in 1861.

How many times do naysayers have to be proven wrong. The collapse of the Euro and EU and Italy have been promoted so many times since 2008 and yet it has not happened. Cherry picking some facts as being "new" to recast the story does not make it truer. To be honest the outlook of Italy is far more positive than the UK at this time.

Ah come on, you can massage numbers whatever way you want but Italy was in recession 3 times in last 10 years and had f all growth in between. Their national debt is among the highest in EU, unemployment rate at around 10%, youth unemployment around 30 something percent, ageing population and problems with their banks. Their bonds are among more expensive for a reason.

UK is in a political mess but I haven't got a clue where that will go and frankly UK being worse off wouldn't make Italy any better.

RandomName2 · 21-08-2019 3:54pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I see the never ending clown car that is Italian politics continues with the PM resigning today.

I wish they would leave the EU along with Greece personally. But I guess for the moment we are stuck with it.

Just letting you know that's 140 million of the EU's 510 million population that's just been floated as an idea for leaving (if you include the UK, which would be wise).

pixelburp wrote: »

what a list of conquests lol. Wasn't Ethiopia a bust? Fair enough, they weren't without designs on expansion, their colour was on the map of Africa true - the original point was that I don't feel that embedded presumption of primacy exists in the mindset of our continental neighbours as much as it does with the UK, whose proponents of Brexit seem to exist in a fantasy of empire now gone. And if they did, Brexit has been a cold shower to disabuse those of these notions.

The Habsburg and Spanish Empires might want a word (both of which predate the UK). Granted they aren't really empires any more, but neither is the UK. Or if one says that the UK is an empire today (the word isn't exactly scientific) then France falls under the same category, and the French tried to conquer most of the world in the 19th century. You can say that all the nationalists in all the EU countries hark back to era of 'glory', from Vox to National Rally, and that nationalism gets tied up in feelings concerning national determination. That isn't in any way exclusive to the UK. Only in a couple of smaller countries (like Denmark, Netherlands, Ireland) do these sentiments not seem to exist.

McGiver · 21-08-2019 8:19pm

micosoft wrote: »

meeeeh wrote: »

The mess that is in Italy has a potential to cost us all dearly. If Italy needed a bailout it would be huge in comparison to Ireland and Greece. To me cheering something like that would be incredibly dumb but knock yourself out.

Italy has allegedly been on the verge of collapse since 1947. There is nothing spectacularly new about it's debt nor is it particularly onerous. The thing is aside from the vast uncounting of the Italian black economy the fundamentals aren't bad. Unlike the UK Italy makes things and exports things that people want...
- Second largest exporter in the EU.
- 40 Billion per annum Trade Surplus.
- HQ of absolute world leaders in manufacturing, food and textiles. Fiat owns Chrysler for example. Generali in insurance.
- Higher growth than the UK - even Warren Buffet sees Italy as a long term investment.

Not to say Italy does not have issues with North South divide and government weakness but that has been true since the unification of Italy in 1861.

How many times do naysayers have to be proven wrong. The collapse of the Euro and EU and Italy have been promoted so many times since 2008 and yet it has not happened. Cherry picking some facts as being "new" to recast the story does not make it truer. To be honest the outlook of Italy is far more positive than the UK at this time.

Exactly. Main issues are - corruption, poor governance, huge regional differences.

Italy has had a huge public debt and budget deficits since the unification bar periods of hyperinflation. Not much change...

Also interesting to find out how much of the public debt is held domestically. If its high % then it's much smaller issue. E.g. Japan debt is 200% GDP but almost all held domestically and hence it's not an issue.

Scoondal · 23-08-2019 7:40pm

Italy should leave EU if they don't like it anymore.
It's really that simple.
And any Italians in Ireland who support Matteo Salvini really need to ask themselves questions about immigrating to Ireland.
EU doesn't need this hassle.

Foghladh · 23-08-2019 8:16pm

McGiver wrote: »

Exactly. Main issues are - corruption, poor governance, huge regional differences.

Italy has had a huge public debt and budget deficits since the unification bar periods of hyperinflation. Not much change...

Also interesting to find out how much of the public debt is held domestically. If its high % then it's much smaller issue. E.g. Japan debt is 200% GDP but almost all held domestically and hence it's not an issue.

There was a CEPS paper a couple of months ago that calculated that about 45% of Italian debt was held internationally

Scoondal · 23-08-2019 8:21pm

McGiver wrote: »

Exactly. Main issues are - corruption, poor governance, huge regional differences.

Italy has had a huge public debt and budget deficits since the unification bar periods of hyperinflation. Not much change...

Also interesting to find out how much of the public debt is held domestically. If its high % then it's much smaller issue. E.g. Japan debt is 200% GDP but almost all held domestically and hence it's not an issue.

Reading some of this thread suggests to me that Italians should be grateful of their EU membership.

Scoondal · 23-08-2019 8:24pm

If the EU could kick countries out of EU, who should we start with ?
For me it would be Poland, Italy, Greece and Hungary.

Darc19 · 23-08-2019 8:25pm

Scoondal wrote: »

If the EU could kick countries out of EU, who should we start with ?
For me it would be Poland, Italy, Greece and Hungary.

The UK.

Scoondal · 23-08-2019 8:29pm

Darc19 wrote: »

The UK.

We don't have to kick them out because they are leaving voluntarily.

McGiver · 23-08-2019 10:30pm

Foghladh wrote: »

McGiver wrote: »

Exactly. Main issues are - corruption, poor governance, huge regional differences.

Italy has had a huge public debt and budget deficits since the unification bar periods of hyperinflation. Not much change...

Also interesting to find out how much of the public debt is held domestically. If its high % then it's much smaller issue. E.g. Japan debt is 200% GDP but almost all held domestically and hence it's not an issue.

There was a CEPS paper a couple of months ago that calculated that about 45% of Italian debt was held internationally

Not too bad actually but also not great, I expected it would be 80% held domestically. If it's only 55% they'll need to put their house in order, hyperinflation and devaluation ain't gonna happen this time round.

McGiver · 23-08-2019 10:41pm

Scoondal wrote: »

If the EU could kick countries out of EU, who should we start with ?
For me it would be Poland, Italy, Greece and Hungary.

Hungary, quasi fascist scum regime. Kicking out Poland isn't a good idea due to Russian interference, Russia would infiltrate them and use as proxy similarly as the Ukraine, we don't want that, it's in no one's interest give the Russian regime more cannon fodder.
I'd probably wait it out even though the Polish clerofascist scum regime is probably even more alarming than the Hungarian one because they also use the Church as a proxy. Drawing religion into politics is always a big issue. But on the other hand, i believe the opposition and civic society is much stronger in Poland than in Hungary so I'd give them chance.
Italy ain't problem unless fascist government becomes a norm. Given the dynamics of Italian politics, I'd be surprised if that happened. They are on a good way showing how incompetent fools they are, which will eliminate them in the end. Constitutional changes which Hungarian and Polish quasi fascist regimes attempted are impossible in the Italy due to perfect bicameral parliamentary system.
Economic issues are an issue and the EU will need to keep pushing on them putting their governance into a good shape, and address corruption and regional issues.

TLDR - Hungary probably out, Poland be really hard on them in the terms of commitment to democracy and human rights, push hard for economic and transparency reforms in Italy.

Scoondal · 23-08-2019 10:49pm

McGiver wrote: »

Hungary, quasi fascist scum regime. Kicking out Poland isn't a good idea due to Russian interference, Russia would infiltrate them and use as proxy similarly as the Ukraine, we don't want that, it's in no one's interest give the Russian regime more cannon fodder.
I'd probably wait it out even though the Polish clerofascist scum regime is probably even more alarming than the Hungarian one because they also use the Church as a proxy. Drawing religion into politics is always a big issue. But on the other hand, i believe the opposition and civic society is much stronger in Poland than in Hungary so I'd give them chance.
Italy ain't problem unless fascist government becomes a norm. Given the dynamics of Italian politics, I'd be surprised if that happened. They are on a good way showing how incompetent fools they are, which will eliminate them in the end. Constitutional changes which Hungarian and Polish quasi fascist regimes attempted are impossible in the Italy due to perfect bicameral parliamentary system.
Economic issues are an issue and the EU will need to keep pushing on them putting their governance into a good shape, and address corruption and regional issues.

TLDR - Hungary probably out, Poland be really hard on them in the terms of commitment to democracy and human rights, push hard for economic and transparency reforms in Italy.

Okay, that is an informed opinion. Perhaps my ideas of EU commitment are a bit simplistic. I do believe that a smaller number of committed EU members would make our union stronger. ( counter intuitive, perhaps.)

McGiver · 23-08-2019 10:54pm

Scoondal wrote: »

McGiver wrote: »

Hungary, quasi fascist scum regime. Kicking out Poland isn't a good idea due to Russian interference, Russia would infiltrate them and use as proxy similarly as the Ukraine, we don't want that, it's in no one's interest give the Russian regime more cannon fodder.
I'd probably wait it out even though the Polish clerofascist scum regime is probably even more alarming than the Hungarian one because they also use the Church as a proxy. Drawing religion into politics is always a big issue. But on the other hand, i believe the opposition and civic society is much stronger in Poland than in Hungary so I'd give them chance.
Italy ain't problem unless fascist government becomes a norm. Given the dynamics of Italian politics, I'd be surprised if that happened. They are on a good way showing how incompetent fools they are, which will eliminate them in the end. Constitutional changes which Hungarian and Polish quasi fascist regimes attempted are impossible in the Italy due to perfect bicameral parliamentary system.
Economic issues are an issue and the EU will need to keep pushing on them putting their governance into a good shape, and address corruption and regional issues.

TLDR - Hungary probably out, Poland be really hard on them in the terms of commitment to democracy and human rights, push hard for economic and transparency reforms in Italy.

Okay, that is an informed opinion. Perhaps my ideas of EU commitment are a bit simplistic. I do believe that a smaller number of committed EU members would make our union stronger. ( counter intuitive, perhaps.)

Who defines what committed is? RoI isn't in Schengen and is a global tax haven so some could argue isn't committed either.

Very ambiguous and unclear definition. And who would assess the said commitment? Won't work. The EU is always going to be a unity in diversity.

Stephen15 · 23-08-2019 10:58pm

Scoondal wrote: »

If the EU could kick countries out of EU, who should we start with ?
For me it would be Poland, Italy, Greece and Hungary.

Kicking Italy out of the EU would be curtains for the EU. It's one of the largest economies within the EU and founding members.

Scoondal · 23-08-2019 11:04pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Kicking Italy out of the EU would be curtains for the EU. It's one of the largest economies within the EU and founding members.

A large but disfunctional economy. Italy is a weight that EU has to carry. Italy out of EU. Let's be part of a union of committed nations only. Poland and Hungary are not committed to EU law.

4068ac1elhodqr · 23-08-2019 11:11pm

Scoondal wrote: »

A large but disfunctional economy. Italy is a weight that EU has to carry. Italy out of EU. Let's be part of a union of committed nations only. Poland and Hungary are not committed to EU law.

Italy the 3rd biggest net contribitior once the Uk packs it's bags.
Sure remove them (Italy) and the uk (already gone), and the V4 group, and be left with a very fragmented union of sorts.

The V4 ( Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia ) are all proud nation states, that refuse to be bullied into a mass migraiton event/project.

Stephen15 · 23-08-2019 11:12pm

Scoondal wrote: »

A large but disfunctional economy. Italy is a weight that EU has to carry. Italy out of EU. Let's be part of a union of committed nations only. Poland and Hungary are not committed to EU law.

It would be disastrous for the EU for Italy to be kicked believe me. In fact the EU would almost certainly suffer more if Italy was to be kicked out. Italy has the resources to be for the most part self sufficient. Italy is one of the largest markets if Italy was to be kicked it would almost certainly put trade restrictions on the EU member states who would not be able to sell their goods to the large Italian market. Either way it's not going to happen.

McGiver · 23-08-2019 11:21pm

Scoondal wrote: »

Stephen15 wrote: »

Kicking Italy out of the EU would be curtains for the EU. It's one of the largest economies within the EU and founding members.

A large but disfunctional economy. Italy is a weight that EU has to carry. Italy out of EU. Let's be part of a union of committed nations only. Poland and Hungary are not committed to EU law.

Italy really isn't a huge problem. It is a problem but not as much as it is presented.

Whereas a global tax haven which doesn't want to collect huge tax due and enables large scale tax evasion of monstrous proportions whilst being heavily indebted is much bigger issue IMHO.

Ireland doesn't really export much on its own (what isn't through US owned entities at least), not much hi-tech high value added stuff and remains heavily indebted as much as Italy in fact but unlike Italy it has nothing to back the debt with. Also, it has unhealthy balance of economy, totally US dominated with relatively few domestic export companies compered to the peers. For example Denmark with the same population has 10 times more domestically owned export firms than Ireland. And exports high tech stuff.

So better look under your bonnet first before looking at neighbour's car.

McGiver · 23-08-2019 11:34pm

Foster Future Whistle wrote: »

Scoondal wrote: »

A large but disfunctional economy. Italy is a weight that EU has to carry. Italy out of EU. Let's be part of a union of committed nations only. Poland and Hungary are not committed to EU law.

Italy the 3rd biggest net contribitior once the Uk packs it's bags.
Sure remove them (Italy) and the uk (already gone), and the V4 group, and be left with a very fragmented union of sorts.

The V4 ( Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia ) are all proud nation states, that refuse to be bullied into a mass migraiton event/project.

I know V4 situation very well and the V4 don't agree on anything. Also, they are all different with different cultures.

CZ and SK are more centre-left and the difference is attitude to euro (SK in euro, CZ very conservative currency attitude somewhat like Denmark/Sweden), religion plays no role in CZ politics and minor role in SK politics. PL and HU are clearly right of the centre, and generally more right than CZ and SK. They are similar only superficially in the sense that they both have quasi-fascist regimes which bend/mess up with the constitution and use propaganda for political purposes. They key difference is that the Polish sort are clero-fascists, religious bigots and socially regressive whereas the Hungarian ones don't really care about religion and social stuff that much.

FreudianSlippers · 27-08-2019 9:25am

McGiver wrote: »

Whereas a global tax haven which doesn't want to collect huge tax due and enables large scale tax evasion of monstrous proportions whilst being heavily indebted is much bigger issue IMHO.

Abject mischaracterisation of the situation.

Ireland doesn't really export much on its own (what isn't through US owned entities at least), not much hi-tech high value added stuff and remains heavily indebted as much as Italy in fact but unlike Italy it has nothing to back the debt with. Also, it has unhealthy balance of economy, totally US dominated with relatively few domestic export companies compered to the peers. For example Denmark with the same population has 10 times more domestically owned export firms than Ireland. And exports high tech stuff.

Except this is blatantly untrue, Ireland's top 10 exports:

Pharmaceuticals: US$53.3 billion (32.3% of total exports)
Organic chemicals: $32.9 billion (19.9%)
Optical, technical, medical apparatus: $15.3 billion (9.3%)
Perfumes, cosmetics: $9.1 billion (5.5%)
Machinery including computers: $8.9 billion (5.4%)
Electrical machinery, equipment: $8.7 billion (5.3%)
Aircraft, spacecraft: $5.6 billion (3.4%)
Other chemical goods: $4.2 billion (2.6%)
Meat: $3.7 billion (2.2%)
Dairy, eggs, honey: $3 billion (1.8%)

First Up · 27-08-2019 9:38am

FreudianSlippers wrote:

Abject mischaracterisation of the situation.

Its also shows a lack of understanding of global economics in the 21st century. Ireland has an open economy where wealth is created, not extracted. Wealth is created by adding value and satisfying demand.

In 100 years, global trade will be dominated by companies that don't exist today making things that have yet to be invented.

Intellectual capital is much more valuable than physical assets.

ancapailldorcha · 27-08-2019 9:55am

Mod: Off topic posts deleted.

micosoft · 27-08-2019 3:08pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Ah come on, you can massage numbers whatever way you want but Italy was in recession 3 times in last 10 years and had f all growth in between. Their national debt is among the highest in EU, unemployment rate at around 10%, youth unemployment around 30 something percent, ageing population and problems with their banks. Their bonds are among more expensive for a reason.

UK is in a political mess but I haven't got a clue where that will go and frankly UK being worse off wouldn't make Italy any better.

Again. What's changed? You could have written that many times over the last sixty years. And yet Italy stills continues on...

meeeeh · 27-08-2019 3:49pm

micosoft wrote: »

Again. What's changed? You could have written that many times over the last sixty years. And yet Italy stills continues on...

Quite a lot changed. They are in Euro so country can't devalue it's currency or change central bank interest rates. From 2005 debt rose for about 30% which negated more or less all previous reductions through decades. Plus their GDP is under the level of GDP in 2000. So their economy is anything but solid.

Jim2007 · 27-08-2019 6:11pm

meeeeh wrote: »

They are in Euro so country can't devalue it's currency or change central bank interest rates. From 2005 debt rose for about 30% which negated more or less all previous reductions through decades.

The debt levels has noting to do with whether they could revalue their currency and the reality is that they don't have the reserves necessary to manage a currency in the world today.

People go on with a lot of nonsense about everything would be great if the could only revalue their currency, but they usually ignore the mechanics of how they could actually do it today. It has not been used for decades because it does not work and besides it is just one tool available to governments, they can use other alternatives such as taxes to impact the economy.

To put it into perspective the SNB (Swiss National Bank) is the only European central bank apart from the ECB that has the resources required to even attempt this and they failed miserably last time around and in doing so, they ended up owning the deficit for the 7 biggest Euroland ecvmoinies....

Claiming that being able to devalue a currency can solve economic problems in todays world is just BS.

meeeeh · 27-08-2019 6:54pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

Claiming that being able to devalue a currency can solve economic problems in todays world is just BS.

I did not say that, I said that what changed is that they don't have the ability to do it. Strenght of Euro at the moment doesn't help Italian economy which is not growing at the rate needed or even at all.

I'm not saying Italy should leave euro but the fact is they are muddling through for decades and some day they will get in trouble unless something changes. And lower retirement age and similar nonsense is not it.

Nody · 28-08-2019 6:34pm

And Italy has a new government (again); M5S and social democrats (PD) with Giuseppe Conte continuing as PM. Long live the new government and may it get beyond the 1 year mark for a change.

brickster69 · 28-08-2019 7:32pm

Won't last long. Conte is just an EU servant

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69Eh8Mc5RAE

is_that_so · 28-08-2019 9:14pm

brickster69 wrote: »

Won't last long. Conte is just an EU servant

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69Eh8Mc5RAE

That's how Italian governments roll anyway.

kksaints · 28-08-2019 9:15pm

brickster69 wrote: »

Won't last long. Conte is just an EU servant

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69Eh8Mc5RAE

Probably won't although interestingly Trump of all people called Conte a highly respected prime minister,

is_that_so · 28-08-2019 9:17pm

kksaints wrote: »

Probably won't although interestingly Trump of all people called Conte a highly respected prime minister,

Not sure he knows who he was talking about and could happily have rolled back on it!

kksaints · 28-08-2019 9:20pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Not sure he knows who he was talking about and could happily have rolled back on it!

Yeah I was wondering did he think Salvini was PM and got mixed up but in any case it was an unusual intervention. Thankully, it seems Salvini's plots seemed to have backfired.

BonnieSituation · 29-08-2019 2:59pm

brickster69 wrote: »

Won't last long. Conte is just an EU servant

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69Eh8Mc5RAE

How does he "serve" the EU?

Given that Italy IS THE EU, I guess that that's what you mean?

Calina · 29-08-2019 6:50pm

brickster69 wrote: »

Won't last long. Conte is just an EU servant

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69Eh8Mc5RAE

In the Italian context, what qualifies as long? The average is like, 13 months. Conte pulled off something they cannot manage in the UK, which is opposition swalliwing their differences and operating to the benefit of the country.

Salvini otoh gambled and lost. There will be elections again in the next year or two and we will see what happens then. But your worldview might improve if you dumped the anti-EU lens that distorts it.

meeeeh · 29-08-2019 7:13pm

I think that too many people find La Liga unpalatable. I'm not going to call them fascist because that's an expression used too much but unlike Germans Italians and Austrians never properly dealt with their ww2 history. Elements in La Liga and Freedom Party (Austria) have a bit too romantic view of their past.

I think there are a lot of politicians and people in Italy who don't want party that evokes memories of less than glorious past to rule the country. They dislike that more than each other.

Italexit. Proposals for new Italian currency gaining traction

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