Calf electrolytes

dungfly · 03-01-2014 12:36am #1

Why do home made recipes include chicken stock? What is the nutritional benefit to the scouring animal of chicken stock?

Emergency recipe for electrolyte solution for scouring calves.
• 1 package of fruit pectin
• 1 teaspoon Lite Salt®
• 2 teaspoons baking soda
• 1 can chicken stock?
• warm water

Ref:
http://www2.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/asc/asc161/asc161.pdf

bbam · 03-01-2014 1:07am

Old wives tale.
No reason cattle should get animal protein fed to them.

And electrolytes isn't designed to feed. It's designed to add fluid in a balanced manner that can be readily absorbed by the body and ready the body to absorb food.
The increase in fluid also increases blood pressure making the animal feel stronger so more likely to feed.

Ideally given seperate to feed. 20 minutes prior to food is good. It will have been absorbed and they will be ready for absorbing their feed.

In te recipe above the pectin can be replaced with glucose (not sugar) and the chicken can be dropped.

dungfly · 03-01-2014 9:56am

I use my own homemade electrolyte (glucose, low salt (Na), table salt (K), baking soda (anti-acid) & glucose (energy). I combine with a raw egg for available protein. My belief is that this is a balanced protein:energy ratio.

I note the pzifer calf electrolyte contains:
"sodium chloride 8.82 grams, potassium phosphate 4.2 grams, citric acid, anhydrous 0.5 grams, potassium citrate 0.12 grams, aminoacetic acid (glycine) 6.36 grams and glucose 44 grams. Osmolarity of the reconstituted solution is approximately 315 mOsm/kg. The pH of the reconstituted solution is approximately 4.3.

Oral glucose/glycine compounds have been used with excellent success to treat dehydration accompanying human cholera for many years.1-3 The rationale for oral rehydration therapy is based upon the active absorption of glucose and glycine when given orally to scouring animals. Their absorption is linked to the simultaneous absorption of sodium and water"

As you can see I am using raw egg protein in the place of glycine (which I understand is a simple protein). Am I still covering my bases here?

http://valleyvet.naccvp.com/index.php?m=product_view_basic&u=country&p=msds&id=3690019

bbam · 03-01-2014 10:45am

If the calf is badly dehydrated it's essentially unable to absorb feed.

I'm not saying it will do no good bit less than it normally would.

We would hold off and give a milk based feed 20 minutes after the electrolytes. We would often mix an egg into the milk.

dungfly · 03-01-2014 11:42am

I have raed that electrolytes can be mixed with milk replacer but not with raw milk.

dungfly · 03-01-2014 11:42am

Any one use yogurt milk?

bbam · 03-01-2014 11:48am

I think if you search there has been threads on youghert milk in the past.

greysides · 03-01-2014 3:11pm

I think that under normal circumstances avoiding using properly formulated electrolytes is 'penny-wise and pound foolish'. As simple as they might appear to be they are carefully constructed. So no, you can't replace glycine with a raw egg.
In emergencies then a simple solution of salt/water or bicarb/water might hold the fort or if cheap fluids for a non-critical case is the question then some of the pink liquids that need to be diluted 20 times would be the answer.
Otherwise you're taking a vulnerable but valuable animal and not doing your best for it.

As for feeding, the current advice is to continue feeding milk alongside electrolyte treatment.

freedominacup · 03-01-2014 5:51pm

greysides wrote: »

I think that under normal circumstances avoiding using properly formulated electrolytes is 'penny-wise and pound foolish'. As simple as they might appear to be they are carefully constructed. So no, you can't replace glycine with a raw egg.
In emergencies then a simple solution of salt/water or bicarb/water might hold the fort or if cheap fluids for a non-critical case is the question then some of the pink liquids that need to be diluted 20 times would be the answer.
Otherwise you're taking a vulnerable but valuable animal and not doing your best for it.

As for feeding, the current advice is to continue feeding milk alongside electrolyte treatment.

The most valuable member of the F&F forum is back posting, thankfully.

munkus · 03-01-2014 8:11pm

greysides wrote: »

As for feeding, the current advice is to continue feeding milk alongside electrolyte treatment.

greysides, should you leave an hour between giving the electrolytes and milk, or does it matter?

greysides · 03-01-2014 8:44pm

munkus wrote: »

greysides, should you leave an hour between giving the electrolytes and milk, or does it matter?

Personally, I would. The milk needs to curdle to be digested and I'd worry that diluting it might affect it. The calf may also drink better with a bit of a delay.

Rho b · 03-01-2014 9:31pm

I use home made electrolytes and always have done. Lectaid and the likes were not available when I started out rearing my own stock some 30 odd years ago.
Eight years ago I worked for a local dairy farmer (140 cow herd) for a few years and one year there were a lot of calves with scour. I cannot remember which bacteria caused it but it was one of the nasty ones. Anyway my treatment for them was straight off milk onto my home made electrolytes (glucose, bread soda, salt and water). Depending on the consistency of the dung/scour then I would add a quarter tub of pro-biotic natural yoghurt (Glenisnk) for one or two of their four daily feeds.
We have had the odd weanling bull at home getting a dirty scour and I apply the same treatment but add sulpha powders and dose.
I have lost very few animals over the years from scour. To be honest I have had more success with calves than foals.
I think it is more important to give them electrolytes three to four times a day if you can.
My mam use to add marmite or bovril to the glucose mix years ago

J.O. Farmer · 04-01-2014 12:46pm

greysides wrote: »

Personally, I would. The milk needs to curdle to be digested and I'd worry that diluting it might affect it. The calf may also drink better with a bit of a delay.

I would leave a break too but for a slightly different reason. The milk will probably curdle in the stomach because it's so acidic regardless of dilution.
The problem I see is the milk might add to the scouring meaning the electrolytes aren't given a chance to be absorbed. The electrolytes contain glucose for energy anyway so a calf could survive on those for a day or so without milk if the scouring is very bad.
I know someone who was on chemo a few years ago and the doctor told him not to worry if he couldn't eat the days he was getting treatment that the drip had everything he needed to survive. The drip is essentially electrolytes.

EamonKilkenny · 04-01-2014 1:24pm

I was at a calf rearing open day and Ingrid Lorenz from UCD was talking at it. She gave this recipe for electrolytes:

bbam · 04-01-2014 6:21pm

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

I would leave a break too but for a slightly different reason. The milk will probably curdle in the stomach because it's so acidic regardless of dilution.
The problem I see is the milk might add to the scouring meaning the electrolytes aren't given a chance to be absorbed. The electrolytes contain glucose for energy anyway so a calf could survive on those for a day or so without milk if the scouring is very bad.
I know someone who was on chemo a few years ago and the doctor told him not to worry if he couldn't eat the days he was getting treatment that the drip had everything he needed to survive. The drip is essentially electrolytes.

Twaddle.
Electrolytes will just keep you hydrated. There is NO feed benifet in it at all.
A sick calf needs to be fed as well as rehydrated.

Hospital patients that aren't eating will not survive on a drip. They need nutritional feeding. My OH is a Dietician and laughs when people think that everything you need is in a standard drip.

Feed the electrolytes, iin 15-20 minutes the calf will be at it's best to absorb the milk feed.

J.O. Farmer · 04-01-2014 6:50pm

bbam wrote: »

Twaddle.
Electrolytes will just keep you hydrated. There is NO feed benifet in it at all.
A sickIcalf needs to be fed as well as reed.

Hospital patients that aren't eating will not survive on a drip. They need nutritional feeding. My OH is a Dietician and laughs when people think that everything you need is in a standard drip.

Feed the electrolytes, iin 15-20 minutes the calf will be at it's best to absorb the milk feed.

I think you may not have read my post correctly. I didn't say there was feeding value. I said glucose was in there and that is an energy source. Your OH should be able to explain how complex carbohydrates are broken down into this for use in the cells of the body. This will keep you alive for a day or so. I never said thrive or long term. The same with the hospital drip. It will keep you alive if you're puking everything up due to chemo for a day or so. I wasn't advocating feeding anybody or anything on electrolyte alone and expect them to do well. I said electrolyte will keep you alive until you are better able to eat.

EamonKilkenny · 04-01-2014 6:51pm

Calves lose between nine and twelve litres of fluid a day with a scour. We give them same amount of milk and three feeds of electrolyte between feeds. So ten litres at least per day. Just throwing a lectade into them morning and evening is a waste of time.

jersey101 · 04-01-2014 6:54pm

Here if a calf has a scour we give them kaolin powder before milk and the two feeds of milk. Calf usually back to itself in two days

J.O. Farmer · 04-01-2014 7:13pm

EamonKilkenny wrote: »

Calves lose between nine and twelve litres of fluid a day with a scour. We give them same amount of milk and three feeds of electrolyte between feeds. So ten litres at least per day. Just throwing a lectade into them morning and evening is a waste of time.

I agree that the calf will need feeding and it depends on how sick the calf is. If the calf is still taking milk I would continue to feed it. The electrolyte will be required to replace lost fluids and salts. If the calf was very bad and I had to stomach tube it I would probably focus on electrolyte and try to get it to drink the milk. My point was lectaid has glucose to provide energy to a very weak animal not taking milk.
I don't bucket rear calves and scour is less of a problem with sucklers so my husbandry in this area is maybe lacking. I do have a good understanding of biology though and how biological systems work.

keep going · 04-01-2014 8:18pm

I buy a bucket of electrolytes every spring and I am glad to say I have some left over every year since.I like one with stuff in it to slow down the passage through the gut.I found if I have the bucket I give it to them straight away whereas it can often slip if I have to go buy it

greysides · 05-01-2014 1:44am

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

My point was lectaid has glucose to provide energy to a very weak animal not taking milk.

The glucose in lectade is there to promote water re-absorption, it is not intended to provide energy. Yes, it will provide some but it's so small compared to requirements it can be virtually ignored.

The second half of this page explains the mechanism. Lectade is developed from the simple formulation the WHO produced to save children suffering from Cholera (which has a similar pathogenic mechanism as E.coli in young calves).

J.O. Farmer · 05-01-2014 1:55am

greysides wrote: »

The glucose in lectade is there to promote water re-absorption, it is not intended to provide energy. Yes, it will provide some but it's so small compared to requirements it can be virtually ignored.

Please elaborate on this. I would have thought that it would do the opposite. Water moves by osmosis from an area of low solute concentration to one of high solute concentration. As glucose is a solute how does it aid water reabsorption. Also would salt not do the same.
By the way I'm not saying your wrong I'm genuinely interested. I have a science background and like to debate these things and learn from it. I accept you could be right on the amount of glucose as I'm not sure of the amounts in each feed v requirements.

freedominacup · 05-01-2014 7:00am

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

Please elaborate on this. I would have thought that it would do the opposite. Water moves by osmosis from an area of low solute concentration to one of high solute concentration. As glucose is a solute how does it aid water reabsorption. Also would salt not do the same.
By the way I'm not saying your wrong I'm genuinely interested. I have a science background and like to debate these things and learn from it. I accept you could be right on the amount of glucose as I'm not sure of the amounts in each feed v requirements.

Read the link. I haven't been in a lecture hall or studied science for over 20 years and the info in the link was easy to follow/understand.

greysides · 05-01-2014 10:24pm

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

Please elaborate on this. I would have thought that it would do the opposite. Water moves by osmosis from an area of low solute concentration to one of high solute concentration. As glucose is a solute how does it aid water reabsorption.

Damn! I think my reply and possibly your next one has disappeared in the Maintenance this afternoon.

The glucose and Na are necessary participants in the ion pump. The water follows the solute. I believe Na is more osmotically active than the glucose.

Glycine has a similar ion pump it primes.

That fluids don't contain enough glucose to meet energy requirements is something I heard in lectures.

J.O. Farmer · 05-01-2014 10:47pm

greysides wrote: »

Damn! I think my reply and possibly your next one has disappeared in the Maintenance this afternoon.

The glucose and Na are necessary participants in the ion pump. The water follows the solute. I believe Na is more osmotically active than the glucose.

Glycine has a similar ion pump it primes.

That fluids don't contain enough glucose to meet energy requirements is something I heard in lectures.

Thanks greysides I saw your response earlier and have a good idea now of the mechanism involved. I also see why the glucose is required to help rehydration.
In my next response I agreed about eggs not replacing glycine as while they provide protein the protein would need to be broken down before glycine would be available.

patsy_mccabe · 28-11-2020 2:28pm

Rather than start a new thread ........

Any reason not to add sulphur powders, to an electrolyte mix for scouring calves?

28-11-2020 3:14pm

EamonKilkenny wrote: »

I was at a calf rearing open day and Ingrid Lorenz from UCD was talking at it. She gave this recipe for electrolytes:

Don’t know the answer to your question pasty but I’ve used this mix for years and I find it fantastic for calf’s

minerleague · 28-11-2020 5:26pm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Rather than start a new thread ........

Any reason not to add sulphur powders, to an electrolyte mix for scouring calves?

Sulpha ?? its an antibiotic and like any antibiotic shouldn't be used unless you have a problem with a specific bacteria. ( blood scour Coccidosis is one) Stopped givin antibiotics to scouring calves here years ago.

patsy_mccabe · 28-11-2020 6:10pm

minerleague wrote: »

Sulpha ?? its an antibiotic and like any antibiotic shouldn't be used unless you have a problem with a specific bacteria. ( blood scour Coccidosis is one) Stopped givin antibiotics to scouring calves here years ago.

Ya, Sulphadimidine powder (To be exact). Calf has blood in the scour.

minerleague · 28-11-2020 6:38pm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Ya, Sulphadimidine powder (To be exact). Calf has blood in the scour.

Sorry didnt see that in first post, Usually straining with blood scour, dark in colour,
can often see a small amount of blood in a young calf with a scour/cold that mightnt be blood scour ( hard to know without seeing)

greysides · 28-11-2020 7:35pm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Rather than start a new thread ........

Any reason not to add sulphur powders, to an electrolyte mix for scouring calves?

A scouring calf is often dehydrated.... I know, I know.... so kidney function is reduced and drugs could build up in the body.

Sulpha can damage the kidneys, to the point of causing kidney failure if there's too much in the system. Poor kidney function will reduce the safety margin.

So, a dangerous coincidence of factors.

The smaller the calf (baby scours v. Coccidiosis in an older calf) the more a small overdosage/weight miscalculation is likely to cause problems.

Unless there's an overwhelming reason to use Sulpha powders I'd suggest a comparible injection instead or a different antibiotic in a tablet.

The point made earlier that baby calf scours are not amenable to antibiotic treatment is very valid.

Bimastat contains electrolytes and a Sulpha family antibiotic...as a proprietary product the combination should be safe together, though expensive.

Calf electrolytes

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