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New pump tripping circuit breaker.

  • 21-07-2020 7:00pm
    #1
    sundodger5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,176 ✭✭✭


    At the weekend the feed to the garage kept tripping.
    By isolating and turning things on one at a time i narrowed it down to the feed to the treatment unit/septic tank.
    That has an air pump and a sump pump. Same procedure plug them in one at a time and found the sump pump causing the thing to trip.
    Here is where it goes odd.
    New pump installed today, exact same pump as the old one, and it trips the breaker.
    Can breakers go faulty? Or am i missing something else?
    Any advice appreciated.


Comments

  • #2
    aido79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,374 ✭✭✭aido79


    sundodger5 wrote: »
    At the weekend the feed to the garage kept tripping.
    By isolating and turning things on one at a time i narrowed it down to the feed to the treatment unit/septic tank.
    That has an air pump and a sump pump. Same procedure plug them in one at a time and found the sump pump causing the thing to trip.
    Here is where it goes odd.
    New pump installed today, exact same pump as the old one, and it trips the breaker.
    Can breakers go faulty? Or am i missing something else?
    Any advice appreciated.

    Did you check the cable going to the pump for damage before connecting it up?


  • #3
    Lenar3556
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    sundodger5 wrote: »
    At the weekend the feed to the garage kept tripping.
    By isolating and turning things on one at a time i narrowed it down to the feed to the treatment unit/septic tank.
    That has an air pump and a sump pump. Same procedure plug them in one at a time and found the sump pump causing the thing to trip.
    Here is where it goes odd.
    New pump installed today, exact same pump as the old one, and it trips the breaker.
    Can breakers go faulty? Or am i missing something else?
    Any advice appreciated.

    Breakers can go faulty, buts it’s not that common, and what you describe is not a very typical manner of failure either.
    Is is an MCB or RCBO that is tripping?
    Does it trip immediately?
    So old pump caused tripping, and no improvement when pump was replaced?
    If there is RCD protection on the circuit, there could be an issue with isolation between conductors, particularly neutral / earth.


  • #4
    Terminator.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 73 ✭✭Terminator.


    Did you do any testing

    If memory serves there's an agitator and a pump/floatswitch


  • #5
    sundodger5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,176 ✭✭✭sundodger5


    aido79 wrote: »
    Did you check the cable going to the pump for damage before connecting it up?
    Cable seems ok to the treatment unit. It is aromoured cable that runs underground.
    Plus i am using a cheap smaller pump (no float switch) to pump at the moment and that does not trigger the breaker. So i have assumed the cable is not the issue.


  • #6
    Terminator.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 73 ✭✭Terminator.


    sundodger5 wrote: »
    Cable seems ok to the treatment unit. It is aromoured cable that runs underground.
    Plus i am using a cheap smaller pump (no float switch) to pump at the moment and that does not trigger the breaker. So i have assumed the cable is not the issue.

    It's hard to say without a Megger/IR tester

    They do trip alright, sometimes the connection at the unit let's water in


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  • #7
    sundodger5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,176 ✭✭✭sundodger5


    Lenar3556 wrote: »
    Breakers can go faulty, buts it’s not that common, and what you describe is not a very typical manner of failure either.
    Is is an MCB or RCBO that is tripping?
    Does it trip immediately?
    So old pump caused tripping, and no improvement when pump was replaced?
    If there is RCD protection on the circuit, there could be an issue with isolation between conductors, particularly neutral / earth.
    Almost instantly, as in it does try to spin up for a split second.
    Yes same issue with new pump as old pump.
    Not sure about MCB or RCBO put have attached pic. It is the one on the right that trips and not the actual garage one. just left of it. Also tried one of those plug in breakers that you may use if using an electric lawnmower. That tripped and the trip on the board.


  • #8
    sundodger5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,176 ✭✭✭sundodger5


    Terminator. wrote: »
    Did you do any testing

    If memory serves there's an agitator and a pump/floatswitch

    Think what you refer to as the agitator is my air pump?
    The new pump i installed is just a dirty water pump with a float switch to pump to the percolation area distribution box.

    Also no sign of water incursion.


  • #9
    Terminator.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 73 ✭✭Terminator.


    sundodger5 wrote: »
    Think what you refer to as the agitator is my air pump?
    The new pump i installed is just a dirty water pump with a float switch to pump to the percolation area distribution box.

    Also no sign of water incursion.

    Ya agitator (air) and water pump to soakaway

    I don't do a lot with them , just test and get the customer to ring the company

    Megger is your friend in these situations


  • #10
    Lenar3556
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    sundodger5 wrote: »
    Almost instantly, as in it does try to spin up for a split second.
    Yes same issue with new pump as old pump.
    Not sure about MCB or RCBO put have attached pic. It is the one on the right that trips and not the actual garage one. just left of it. Also tried one of those plug in breakers that you may use if using an electric lawnmower. That tripped and the trip on the board.

    That’s an RCD - tripping suggests there is some leakage to earth. Think water or damaged cable. Agree with other poster - installation needs to be insulation tested. The problem could be elsewhere on the circuit and takes a load (in this case your pump) to expose it. For example poor isolation between neutral and earth.


  • #11
    sundodger5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,176 ✭✭✭sundodger5


    Lenar3556 wrote: »
    That’s an RCD - tripping suggests there is some leakage to earth. Think water or damaged cable. Agree with other poster - installation needs to be insulation tested. The problem could be elsewhere on the circuit and takes a load (in this case your pump) to expose it. For example poor isolation between neutral and earth.

    If a ran an extension lead out to the tank and plugged in to that? If no trip i have an issue with the underground cable somewhere?


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  • #12
    Lenar3556
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    sundodger5 wrote: »
    If a ran an extension lead out to the tank and plugged in to that? If no trip i have an issue with the underground cable somewhere?

    Yes, that wouldn’t be a bad idea at all.


  • #13
    sundodger5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,176 ✭✭✭sundodger5


    Ran out an extension lead from the kitchen, plugged it in and....it tripped.
    So no closer to a solution.


  • #14
    Terminator.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 73 ✭✭Terminator.


    sundodger5 wrote: »
    Ran out an extension lead from the kitchen, plugged it in and....it tripped.
    So no closer to a solution.

    What's at the treatment unit

    Is it just a connection and the aerator and the water pump

    It shouldn't be that hard to figure it out without the IR tester


  • #15
    sundodger5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,176 ✭✭✭sundodger5


    Atmoured cable into the unit feeds a double IP56 scocket.
    Pump and aerator plug in to there.
    If you think the only way forward is an IR tester i will have to call in someone
    Only thing i have is a multimeter as i am not an electrician.
    Swopping out the pump amd wiring the plug for it was what i hoped would fix it.
    Time for an expert?


  • #16
    Terminator.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 73 ✭✭Terminator.


    Shouldn't be much to it

    Check for damp around the socket, and trial and error with the pump and aerator

    The IR tester is a different ballgame , that will solve it quickly but it takes experience to use it


  • #17
    Lenar3556
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    sundodger5 wrote: »
    Ran out an extension lead from the kitchen, plugged it in and....it tripped.
    So no closer to a solution.

    That would be pretty good evidence that the fault lies in whatever you plugged into the extension lead. For completeness, maybe try plugging in your electric kettle into the extension lead and confirm that it starts to boil with no tripping.

    What model multimeter do you have?

    Best guess at this stage would be water ingress into the pump/connected wiring somewhere. You should be able to see that with a quick ohms test between L/E and N/E using your multimeter.


  • #18
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    sundodger5 wrote: »
    Ran out an extension lead from the kitchen, plugged it in and....it tripped.
    So no closer to a solution.

    That is closer to a solution. It means its unlikely the cable. It was unlikely anyway, as damaged cable will usually cause trips from other loads elsewhere, or itself if it is a Phase to E short in the cable.

    Plugging the kettle into the lead is not a bad idea, something I used to suggest in similar situations before. After that, it is almost certainly a problem in the motor itself.


  • #19
    sundodger5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,176 ✭✭✭sundodger5


    I have a UNI-T UT58A and the cheap auto range one from Lidl. Parkside PDM 200 C2.
    Will try the kettle a bit later.
    New pump faulty is a possibility i suppose, i think the fact it is acting the same as the old one is throwing me a bit.
    Not sure on the water thing. Everything is bone dry and as the pump is pre wired that should not be an issue?
    Only thing i did was shorten the cable, routed it through the waterproof connection, put on a plug and plugged it in.


  • #20
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    sundodger5 wrote: »
    I have a UNI-T UT58A and the cheap auto range one from Lidl. Parkside PDM 200 C2.
    Will try the kettle a bit later.
    New pump faulty is a possibility i suppose, i think the fact it is acting the same as the old one is throwing me a bit.
    Not sure on the water thing. Everything is bone dry and as the pump is pre wired that should not be an issue?
    Only thing i did was shorten the cable, routed it through the waterproof connection, put on a plug and plugged it in.

    Try ohms test on the plug pins, from L to E, and N to E, see if anything comes up.

    On a manual range meter, I would be doing it in the megaohm ranges and work down if anything comes up. Dont touch pins with fingers as this can give reading on meters set in the high ohms ranges.


  • #21
    Terminator.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 73 ✭✭Terminator.


    Bruthal wrote: »
    Try ohms test on the plug pins, from L to E, and N to E, see if anything comes up.

    On a manual range meter, I would be doing it in the megaohm ranges and work down if anything comes up. Dont touch pins with fingers as this can give reading on meters set in the high ohms ranges.

    What's the multimeter like for IR testing?

    Hard to beat the voltage out of the Megger for showing up faults


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  • #22
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Terminator. wrote: »
    What's the multimeter like for IR testing?

    Hard to beat the voltage out of the Megger for showing up faults

    Megger is good because it will show up when conductors are microns apart but not touching, on the 1000v setting etc.

    Multimeter wont show that up, but will show up water ingress into connections and that, as there is not a gap there forming a barrier.


  • #23
    Terminator.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 73 ✭✭Terminator.


    Bruthal wrote: »
    Megger is good because it will show up when conductors are microns apart but not touching, on the 1000v setting etc.

    Multimeter wont show that up, but will show up water ingress into connections and that, as there is not a gap there forming a barrier.
    Ya hard to beat the 1000v

    Sometimes you can hear the fault too


  • #24
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Terminator. wrote: »
    Ya hard to beat the 1000v

    Sometimes you can hear the fault too

    Yes its a great setup for testing.


  • #25
    sundodger5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,176 ✭✭✭sundodger5


    L to E .620 M ohms Similar N to E and for the craic L to N 16.5 ohms.
    Although a previous reading gave .840 M ohms E to N and L.

    Wiring passed the kettle test although herself not impressed with me plugging the kettle in down there.


  • #26
    Terminator.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 73 ✭✭Terminator.


    Bruthal wrote: »
    Yes its a great setup for testing.

    I was trying to remember today the voltages for troubleshooting an installation with appliances in-situ


    250v you can check across L N E

    If you go to 500v you link across N-E

    I think appliances have a rating that allows the higher voltage?


  • #27
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    I'd use 250v for trouble shooting usually when I was at that. If nothing, step it up after isolating appliances probably.


  • #28
    John.G
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,563 ✭✭✭John.G


    sundodger5 wrote: »
    I have a UNI-T UT58A and the cheap auto range one from Lidl. Parkside PDM 200 C2.
    Will try the kettle a bit later.
    New pump faulty is a possibility i suppose, i think the fact it is acting the same as the old one is throwing me a bit.
    Not sure on the water thing. Everything is bone dry and as the pump is pre wired that should not be an issue?
    Only thing i did was shorten the cable, routed it through the waterproof connection, put on a plug and plugged it in.

    Unlikely but presume that the plug is wired correctly after shortening the cable.


  • #29
    sundodger5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,176 ✭✭✭sundodger5


    John.G wrote: »
    Unlikely but presume that the plug is wired correctly after shortening the cable.

    Yes, Earth to top pin (yellow/green). Live (Brown) to Right (FUSE). Neutral (Blue) to the left. As you look at the open plug.


  • #30
    Risteard81
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    sundodger5 wrote: »
    Almost instantly, as in it does try to spin up for a split second.
    Yes same issue with new pump as old pump.
    Not sure about MCB or RCBO put have attached pic. It is the one on the right that trips and not the actual garage one. just left of it. Also tried one of those plug in breakers that you may use if using an electric lawnmower. That tripped and the trip on the board.
    Why is your garage on a Type D MCB? I'm presuming it is to run a welder or something, but a Type D isn't really suitable for a domestic installation. Also the Earth fault loop impedance may be excessive to ensure disconnection times are met (notwithstanding the RCD present).


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  • #31
    adrian92
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 566 ✭✭✭adrian92


    Perhaps disconnect the pump and check if the cable can be energized ok


  • #32
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Risteard81 wrote: »
    Why is your garage on a Type D MCB?

    Good question.


  • #33
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    sundodger5 wrote: »
    L to E .620 M ohms Similar N to E and for the craic L to N 16.5 ohms.
    Although a previous reading gave .840 M ohms E to N and L.

    Just to be clear:

    Are you saying that when you test the insulation resistance between L & E on the pump you get 0.62 M Ohms? If this is the reading it is a fail.


  • #34
    Lenar3556
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    2011 wrote: »
    Just to be clear:

    Are you saying that when you test the insulation resistance between L & E on the pump you get 0.62 M Ohms? If this is the reading it is a fail.

    I have noticed appliances sometimes have capacitive links to earth for EMC compliance which give you these kind of readings. Would look like there is something amiss with that pump though.


  • #35
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Lenar3556 wrote: »
    I have noticed appliances sometimes have capacitive links to earth for EMC compliance which give you these kind of readings. Would look like there is something amiss with that pump though.

    A multimeter or Meggar is DC so it will be blind to a capacitive link


  • #36
    sundodger5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,176 ✭✭✭sundodger5


    2011 wrote: »
    Just to be clear:

    Are you saying that when you test the insulation resistance between L & E on the pump you get 0.62 M Ohms? If this is the reading it is a fail.

    No it is not an IR test just a reading with a Multimeter.
    Have someone calling who has access to a megger hopefully tomorrow.
    As for the why that trip is on the garage, i have no clue and do not understand the significance of it tbh.


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  • #37
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    sundodger5 wrote: »
    No it is not an IR test just a reading with a Multimeter.
    Have someone calling who has access to a megger hopefully tomorrow.
    As for the why that trip is on the garage, i have no clue and do not understand the significance of it tbh.

    Yes, so most likely the Meggar will produce an even worse reading as the applied voltage is so much higher. Is the RCD is tripping? If so this could explain why.


  • #38
    sundodger5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,176 ✭✭✭sundodger5


    Yes RCD is tripping even with a brand new pump.
    Previous posters pointed to an IR test at this point. I just need to be sure before sending pump back under warranty.


  • #39
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,603 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    sundodger5 wrote: »
    Yes RCD is tripping even with a brand new pump.
    Previous posters pointed to an IR test at this point. I just need to be sure before sending pump back under warranty.

    Sorry I don’t have time to read the entire thread but have you attempted to power it from a different RCD??


  • #40
    sundodger5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,176 ✭✭✭sundodger5


    no, did try to power it from a different cable. Still tripped that RCD.
    In my non expert head based on what we have eliminated so far it looks like faulty pump or iffy RCD. My Expert will hopefully clarify and i will post the solution when i find out.
    Might help the next fella.


  • #41
    sundodger5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,176 ✭✭✭sundodger5


    IR tester came and the new pump is faulty. Mystery solved.
    Just my luck to get a dud.


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  • #42
    Frankx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Frankx


    sundodger5 wrote: »
    IR tester came and the new pump is faulty. Mystery solved.
    Just my luck to get a dud.

    Unexpected outcome

    Hopefully it's not something else


  • #43
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Frankx wrote: »
    Unexpected outcome

    Hopefully it's not something else

    What would you have suspected here?


  • #44
    Frankx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Frankx


    Bruthal wrote: »
    What would you have suspected here?

    Was playing devils advocate as the pump is new

    There's a chance the pump was incorrectly wired or fault on the cabling from the socket


  • #45
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Frankx wrote: »
    Was playing devils advocate as the pump is new

    There's a chance the pump was incorrectly wired or fault on the cabling from the socket

    There was, but once the ohms test showed high readings Phase to E and N to earth, and low Phase to N, that indicated the pump was correctly wired to the plug the OP had setup.

    Faulty cable would often, or usually, trip an RCD without the actual load connected to it being on.


  • #46
    Frankx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Frankx


    Bruthal wrote: »
    There was, but once the ohms test showed high readings Phase to E and N to earth, and low Phase to N, that indicated the pump was correctly wired to the plug the OP had setup.

    Faulty cable would often, or usually, trip an RCD without the actual load connected to it being on.

    Probably right but all we have is bits of information from a non electrician

    It's probable that an IR test was done correctly and proved the new pump is faulty


  • #47
    sundodger5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,176 ✭✭✭sundodger5


    IR test done by a guy who does a lot of work commissioning pump stations etc. So i assume it was ok.


  • #48
    Frankx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭Frankx


    sundodger5 wrote: »
    IR test done by a guy who does a lot of work commissioning pump stations etc. So i assume it was ok.

    Should be fine in that case


  • #49
    dodzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,071 ✭✭✭✭dodzy


    Hope you’ve no hassle getting replacement having shortened the cable. Sellers can be finicky with stuff like that.


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