Leasing to Fingal County Council (10 year)

dialemma · 29-05-2015 1:23pm #1

Hi, any experience of the following please - we are about to enter into a 10 year lease agreement with Fingal Co Co whereby we lease our property to them for that duration. Our Management Company have advised that they will not provide premission for this agreement to proceed unless Fingal confirm that they will abide by the Mgt Co house rules and the property lease which is in place between us and the Mgt Co (which we signed on purchasing the property) as it is leasehold not freehold.

Any advice? it this likely to be a stumbling block or is this a normal requirement?

handlemaster · 29-05-2015 1:26pm

dialemma wrote: »

Hi, any experience of the following please - we are about to enter into a 10 year lease agreement with Fingal Co Co whereby we lease our property to them for that duration. Our Management Company have advised that they will not provide premission for this agreement to proceed unless Fingal confirm that they will abide by the Mgt Co house rules and the property lease which is in place between us and the Mgt Co (which we signed on purchasing the property) as it is leasehold not freehold.

Any advice? it this likely to be a stumbling block or is this a normal requirement?

Why would you go in for a 10 year lease ? They only offer 80% of the rental value

dialemma · 29-05-2015 2:13pm

For security of income. They also take on full maintenance of the property so we have no further outlay or no periods where the house is lying empty.

Gatling · 29-05-2015 2:42pm

dialemma wrote: »

For security of income. They also take on full maintenance of the property so we have no further outlay or no periods where the house is lying empty.

Alot of the time you will be fully reponsible for maintaince and repairs .
I'd clarify that further

dialemma · 29-05-2015 2:46pm

Yes we have clarified all of those items, this is a 10 year long term leasing scheme and not RAS

http://www.fingalcoco.ie/housing/leasing-initiative/long-term-lease-scheme/

The draw back is that we must sell the property with a sitting tenant if we decided to sell. However, it is not our intention to sell as this is my husbands pension.

handlemaster · 29-05-2015 2:55pm

dialemma wrote: »

Yes we have clarified all of those items, this is a 10 year long term leasing scheme and not RAS

http://www.fingalcoco.ie/housing/leasing-initiative/long-term-lease-scheme/

The draw back is that we must sell the property with a sitting tenant if we decided to sell. However, it is not our intention to sell as this is my husbands pension.

Can you get more than the 80% by negotiating?

dialemma · 29-05-2015 3:03pm

I doubt it handlemaster, there are regular rent reviews however. TBH increasing the amount by even 10% is negligible considering we will be paying tax on it regardless, we would probably get an additional 500.00 p/year which would be lost if the house was empty for even a week or two. We are accidental landlords so once we cover our mortgage and tax liability and don't have to worry about repairs, troublesome tenants, vacant periods etc then we are happy

seamus · 29-05-2015 3:09pm

I wasn't aware that the management company had any say over sub-leasing a leasehold property. Certainly I've never heard of any landlords getting stuck with this. Who got the management company involved - was it you or Fingal?

Of course the management company would insist that any sub-lessee abide by house rules, that's fairly standard. I'm really more curious to know how the management company got involved at all and why their permission was sought.

Aside, I can see a lot of people handing over their celtic tiger properties to local authorities with the schemes they've opened up. 10 years guaranteed income and all they have to do is pay their mortgage? Sorted. You could get another mortgage with that kind of security and by the end of the ten years you'd be out of negative equity.

handlemaster · 29-05-2015 3:10pm

dialemma wrote: »

I doubt it handlemaster, there are regular rent reviews however. TBH increasing the amount by even 10% is negligible considering we will be paying tax on it regardless, we would probably get an additional 500.00 p/year which would be lost if the house was empty for even a week or two. We are accidental landlords so once we cover our mortgage and tax liability and don't have to worry about repairs, troublesome tenants, vacant periods etc then we are happy

Thats good so no hassle. Did it take long for them to assess the property agree to rent and have contracts signed ?

dialemma · 29-05-2015 3:14pm

Hi, they say about 8 - 12 weeks, we have taken longer as we have had a few bits to do but for the most part they are pretty quick about it. An engineer comes out to assess the property and advises if any repairs etc required, so at the moment we are working on just those (mainly simple things like fresh paint, CO2 alarm, fixing a loose fitting) then there is paperwork you need to provide e.g. RECI certificate from a registered electrician, BER, tax clearance cert etc and then our stumbling block which is permission from Management Company that they are happy for the lease to proceed. I've my fingers crossed that that won't cause a big delay as out current tenants are moving out on June 17th

murphaph · 29-05-2015 6:42pm

Personally I think 20% is a very high price to pay. You're looking at €24k lost in the 10 years on a market rate rent of 1k pcm (and I assume your market rate is higher). In an apartment you simply won't have much maintenance and nowhere near that much.

I'm looking to leave RAS at the next opportunity and there they only want to stiff you with an 8% reduction. Anyway best of luck OP.

ted1 · 29-05-2015 6:47pm

murphaph wrote: »

Personally I think 20% is a very high price to pay. You're looking at €24k lost in the 10 years on a market rate rent of 1k pcm (and I assume your market rate is higher). In an apartment you simply won't have much maintenance and nowhere near that much.

I'm looking to leave RAS at the next opportunity and there they only want to stiff you with an 8% reduction. Anyway best of luck OP.

Over 10 years you'll have empty periods which you recoup over the 10 years , as well as no fear of a tenant not paying. You won't have any PRTB fee or advertising costs.

quadrifoglio verde · 29-05-2015 6:51pm

ted1 wrote: »

Over 10 years you'll have empty periods which you recoup over the 10 years , as well as no fear of a tenant not paying. You won't have any PRTB fee or advertising costs.

Plus if I'm reading right you dont have to maintain the unit, it's the council responsibility.
If so happy feckin days, you might get 20% less than market but you dont have to be a landlord.
Nearly sounds too good to be true.

Gumbo · 29-05-2015 7:00pm

handlemaster wrote: »

Can you get more than the 80% by negotiating?

They offered me €1300 on my house that the private market commands €1400 for so I'd say yes. Talk to them and try get an agreement.

House was a 4 bed near Charlestown SC in Finglas.

murphaph · 29-05-2015 7:28pm

ted1 wrote: »

Over 10 years you'll have empty periods which you recoup over the 10 years , as well as no fear of a tenant not paying. You won't have any PRTB fee or advertising costs.

I still think 24k+ is way too much to pay for these benefits

dialemma · 29-05-2015 8:21pm

Fingal requested that we provide the permission from the mgt co together with a copy of the house rules and statement showing mgt fees were up to date.

seamus wrote: »

I wasn't aware that the management company had any say over sub-leasing a leasehold property. Certainly I've never heard of any landlords getting stuck with this. Who got the management company involved - was it you or Fingal?

Of course the management company would insist that any sub-lessee abide by house rules, that's fairly standard. I'm really more curious to know how the management company got involved at all and why their permission was sought.

Aside, I can see a lot of people handing over their celtic tiger properties to local
authorities with the schemes they've opened up. 10 years guaranteed income and all they have to do is pay their mortgage? Sorted. You could get another mortgage with that kind of security and by the end of the ten years you'd be out of negative equity.

handlemaster · 29-05-2015 8:21pm

kceire wrote: »

They offered me €1300 on my house that the private market commands €1400 for so I'd say yes. Talk to them and try get an agreement.

House was a 4 bed near Charlestown SC in Finglas.

thats good... snap the hand off

dialemma · 29-05-2015 8:25pm

kceire wrote: »

They offered me €1300 on my house that the private market commands €1400 for so I'd say yes. Talk to them and try get an agreement.

House was a 4 bed near Charlestown SC in Finglas.

Hi Kecire ours is 3 bed in same place as you and they offering 1070 market rate is round 1200. Did you go ahead or did you need to get mgt co involved? Were you RAS or long term lease scheme?

murphaph · 29-05-2015 8:41pm

dialemma wrote: »

Hi Kecire ours is 3 bed in same place as you and they offering 1070 market rate is round 1200. Did you go ahead or did you need to get mgt co involved? Were you RAS or long term lease scheme?

Sure that's almost 90%. That's a different kettle of fish.

ted1 · 29-05-2015 11:40pm

murphaph wrote: »

I still think 24k+ is way too much to pay for these benefits

But it's not 24k. I'm going to do the figures and see what it really costs

Gumbo · 30-05-2015 9:45am

handlemaster wrote: »

thats good... snap the hand off

dialemma wrote: »

Hi Kecire ours is 3 bed in same place as you and they offering 1070 market rate is round 1200. Did you go ahead or did you need to get mgt co involved? Were you RAS or long term lease scheme?

murphaph wrote: »

Sure that's almost 90%. That's a different kettle of fish.

No I didn't to be honest.
I ended up renting out our other property that is in DCC boundary and doing it privately.

There are a few little things that I didn't like about the RAS scheme or the long term rental schemes, mainly the duration at the moment.

My main point was to talk to them and they should be able to increase the rent. Their budgets increased in December 2014 and again at the moment the LA's are on a push campaign to try I time private landlords.

gccrowley1 · 06-01-2016 4:23am

Just a quick question regarding a long term lease agreement with fingal coco, can the owner still terminate the contract with council to move back into the house themselves earlier then the min 10 years.

I know according to prtb in private rentals the landlord cans do this at anytime regardless of contract type , by only if they need the house for themselves or a family member.

Any info would be great, thanks.

dialemma · 06-01-2016 10:39am

This is the reply I have on file from Fingal with regards to your question. Basically our lease stipulates we have the option to sell the property with tenants in place but no option to terminate the lease and move back in ourselves.

'There is no option to terminate under LTL. You can sell the property but you must sell to someone who is willing to take on the long term lease for the remainder of the term. LTL is for 10 – 20 years'

The_Conductor · 06-01-2016 10:43am

gccrowley1 wrote: »

Just a quick question regarding a long term lease agreement with fingal coco, can the owner still terminate the contract with council to move back into the house themselves earlier then the min 10 years.

I know according to prtb in private rentals the landlord cans do this at anytime regardless of contract type , by only if they need the house for themselves or a family member.

Any info would be great, thanks.

That will depend on the lease details- and whether or not there is a break clause. Typically it is not an option.

murphaph · 20-07-2016 11:59am

Hmmm, I notice the link the OP posted to the Fingal site now shows up to 92% for both long term leasing and RAS. I have to admit, I'd be interested in 92% of market rate assuming I could get a rent review every 2 years (now no different than private lets) to be free of boiler services, PRTB stuff and generally being a landlord. The 8% would be worth it for these benefits. The big downside of the LTL is of course that you can't (realistically) sell your property until the lease is up. You'd never get the OMSP for it with the lease in place.

stargazer 68 · 30-06-2017 11:27am

dialemma wrote: »

This is the reply I have on file from Fingal with regards to your question. Basically our lease stipulates we have the option to sell the property with tenants in place but no option to terminate the lease and move back in ourselves.

'There is no option to terminate under LTL. You can sell the property but you must sell to someone who is willing to take on the long term lease for the remainder of the term. LTL is for 10 – 20 years'

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread but it's linked to this.

Has anyone tried to get their property back and been successful? Appealed the decision not to allow you to reclaim it?
Thanks

The_Conductor · 30-06-2017 3:26pm

Dovies wrote: »

Has anyone tried to get their property back and been successful? Appealed the decision not to allow you to reclaim it?
Thanks

I've a sibling who attempted to reclaim a unit she let in Blanchardstown for personal use (she actually emigrated to South Africa during the downturn- and wanted to come home)- but Fingal told her to take a hike. She appealed, and lost the appeal. She is now renting a different property altogether in Smithfield (the old Distillery complex).

She feels quite bitter about her experience on two separate grounds- she can't get her own apartment back on the one hand- and on the other hand, she can't offset her rental income from Blanch against her outgoings in Smithfield- aka she is paying tax on her rental income from Blanch- and then has to rent separately from her net income.

She's probably down 800-1000 a month- as a result of taking part in the scheme- and it'll be at least 2021 before she gets her apartment back.

stargazer 68 · 30-06-2017 3:47pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

I've a sibling who attempted to reclaim a unit she let in Blanchardstown for personal use (she actually emigrated to South Africa during the downturn- and wanted to come home)- but Fingal told her to take a hike. She appealed, and lost the appeal. .

Currently drafting an appeal letter. Their refusal letter says there are currently 9000 families in need of social housing. Unfortunately if the property is not able to be obtained from them there will be another family to add to that 9000.

Social welfare won't help I don't think as the person in question owns a property although they can't live in it!

The_Conductor · 30-06-2017 4:37pm

Dovies wrote: »

Currently drafting an appeal letter. Their refusal letter says there are currently 9000 families in need of social housing. Unfortunately if the property is not able to be obtained from them there will be another family to add to that 9000.

Social welfare won't help I don't think as the person in question owns a property although they can't live in it!

I hear you- I was at an RTB tribunal supporting a family whose tenants were overholding- and had made them homeless- the RTB didn't want to know. They did make a judgement in favour of the owner- because the tenant wasn't paying rent- however, it still took a year to get them out, meanwhile the family lived out of suitcases in Bewleys Hotel Newlands Cross- despite their own home being less than a mile away.

Needless to say- there was no compensation for the owner.

Its all stacked in favour of a sitting tenant- wholly regardless of the needs of an owner.

stargazer 68 · 30-06-2017 4:46pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Its all stacked in favour of a sitting tenant- wholly regardless of the needs of an owner.

Will lodge the appeal next week and see how it goes. After that I really don't know the next step!

Puddleduck1 · 02-11-2017 1:22pm

Hi Dovies, have you moved on in the appeals process? I have a house rented out for 20 years and our circumstances have changed that I now need to sell the property. I have offered it back to the council as they want to buy properties, they would also save €62k by purchasing but they were not interested. If I can't sell the property we will end up homeless ourselves.

stargazer 68 · 02-11-2017 1:28pm

Puddleduck1 wrote: »

Hi Dovies, have you moved on in the appeals process? I have a house rented out for 20 years and our circumstances have changed that I now need to sell the property. I have offered it back to the council as they want to buy properties, they would also save €62k by purchasing but they were not interested. If I can't sell the property we will end up homeless ourselves.

I have pmd you.

handlemaster · 17-02-2020 9:11pm

dialemma wrote: »

Hi, any experience of the following please - we are about to enter into a 10 year lease agreement with Fingal Co Co whereby we lease our property to them for that duration. Our Management Company have advised that they will not provide premission for this agreement to proceed unless Fingal confirm that they will abide by the Mgt Co house rules and the property lease which is in place between us and the Mgt Co (which we signed on purchasing the property) as it is leasehold not freehold.

Any advice? it this likely to be a stumbling block or is this a normal requirement?

OP how did this go for you ??

Mod I know it's an old thread but I think it might be of interest to others also how this went

dialemma · 18-02-2020 12:08am

handlemaster wrote: »

OP how did this go for you ??

Mod I know it's an old thread but I think it might be of interest to others also how this went

Hi - so far so good, we are 5 years in now and 5 to go. In our case we were able to secure another mortgage to buy a house further away and the bank accepted the lease with Fingal as a guarenteed income. Tax bill is a killer as there is very little to off set but aside from that we’ve had zero trouble in the past five years and tbh we rarely think of it.

handlemaster · 18-02-2020 7:24am

That's great to hear. After 5 years there is a clause to review the rent or not ?

Arciphel · 26-05-2021 12:57pm

dialemma wrote: »

Hi - so far so good, we are 5 years in now and 5 to go. In our case we were able to secure another mortgage to buy a house further away and the bank accepted the lease with Fingal as a guarenteed income. Tax bill is a killer as there is very little to off set but aside from that we’ve had zero trouble in the past five years and tbh we rarely think of it.

Currently looking into this scheme, was just wondering - in your case, if you had re-mortgaged the house that you are currently leasing to Fingal, could you offset the interest on that mortgage against the rentla income to save on the tax? And then use the cash from the re-mortgage to buy your other house (which you are living in) mortgage free?

The_Conductor · 26-05-2021 3:49pm

Arciphel wrote: »

Currently looking into this scheme, was just wondering - in your case, if you had re-mortgaged the house that you are currently leasing to Fingal, could you offset the interest on that mortgage against the rentla income to save on the tax? And then use the cash from the re-mortgage to buy your other house (which you are living in) mortgage free?

Not allowable from a tax perspective.
The original mortgage- yes, a subsequent mortgage, no.

sk8board · 26-05-2021 4:58pm

one of my tenants asked this evening about doing a 10-15 year lease with Fingal. I’ve no issue with it, however I already rent below the market rate (market is around €1,900 and it’s rented for €1300 from 5.5 years ago).

My question is - will FCC use the current market rate, and then do their discount, or the current actual rent?

Their form is from the dark ages, and looks like it needs to be posted (??), but it only asks for the current rent.

https://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/2020-07/long-term-leasing-application-2019.docx

If the discount is off the current rent, set 5yrs ago, then the answer would obviously be no.

Tks

The_Conductor · 26-05-2021 5:09pm

In general the current rent does not determine the rate the LA will give you. You determine what the OMS is, with relevant examples, and the LA give you 80% of this. Note- the relationship is between you and the LA- not you and the tenant- and even if the LA agree to take the property, there is nothing to say that the current tenants would be allowed stay in the property- typically it would tenanted on a 'needs basis' by the LA from their housing list.

The current tenants may not have thought this through fully- just because they're there now, does not mean they get to stay there if the local authority take a long term lease on the property...........

Also- from your perspective as owner of the property- you may be presented with a list of upgrade works that might be deemed necessary by the LA- before the LA agree to sign on the dotted line- just because there are tenants in there now who are happy with the property- does not mean the local authority will be happy with the property.

You have some investigating to do.

sk8board · 26-05-2021 5:30pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

In general the current rent does not determine the rate the LA will give you. You determine what the OMS is, with relevant examples, and the LA give you 80% of this. Note- the relationship is between you and the LA- not you and the tenant- and even if the LA agree to take the property, there is nothing to say that the current tenants would be allowed stay in the property- typically it would tenanted on a 'needs basis' by the LA from their housing list.

The current tenants may not have thought this through fully- just because they're there now, does not mean they get to stay there if the local authority take a long term lease on the property...........

Also- from your perspective as owner of the property- you may be presented with a list of upgrade works that might be deemed necessary by the LA- before the LA agree to sign on the dotted line- just because there are tenants in there now who are happy with the property- does not mean the local authority will be happy with the property.

You have some investigating to do.

That’s a good point about the tenant potentially shooting themselves in the foot.

I’m a full time LL, and all properties rented to RAS or HAP over the years have flown through the inspections. maintenance is all done immediately. They’re all houses from the past 18yrs.

there’s little to gain here, bar the tenant having more security if they can ensure they’re the one getting the house. That said, it’s specifically a B2L property, so they should have that security already.
If the LO uses the current market rate, then in theory I’d get a roughly 10-15% rent increase and still satisfy their discounting rates.

I’ll talk to the tenant and see how much research he’s done

The_Conductor · 30-05-2021 2:32pm

Arciphel wrote:

Currently looking into this scheme, was just wondering - in your case, if you had re-mortgaged the house that you are currently leasing to Fingal, could you offset the interest on that mortgage against the rentla income to save on the tax? And then use the cash from the re-mortgage to buy your other house (which you are living in) mortgage free?"

Only an original mortgage is eligible for tax relief (on the interest component of the mortgage). Any subsequent remortgage- does not qualify. Revenue are quite specific about it, there are no circumstances under which what you're suggesting is allowable in the Irish tax code.

Leasing to Fingal County Council (10 year)

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