Relationship breakup

13-01-2021 8:32pm

Something is wrong there, then.

As Glen123 posted above, if she is on JSA its means tested against your income, and with earnings of €560 a week there is no way she'd get that much.

Are you claiming Working Family Payment?

Dave46 · 13-01-2021 8:34pm

I dont know what she is claiming to be honest i know i had to give her3 payslips recently

Dave46 · 13-01-2021 8:38pm

Just found out she has been messaging an old male friend from england!!!! Very flirty texts between the 2 of them, now im really in the ****.
Thank god for covid and the travel ban

Dave46 · 13-01-2021 8:44pm

247 per week + 280 childrens allowance per month total 1268 per month as apposed to my wages of 2236 per month

Dtp1979 · 13-01-2021 8:48pm

Dave46 wrote: »

Just found out she has been messaging an old male friend from england!!!! Very flirty texts between the 2 of them, now im really in the ****.
Thank god for covid and the travel ban

Try and keep your cool. Any verbal abuse you throw at her will be used against you.

13-01-2021 8:48pm

Dave46 wrote: »

I dont know what she is claiming to be honest i know i had to give her3 payslips recently

If it was WFP, you would be making the claim for it, not her.

It sounds suspect, to be honest. it may be she asked you for payslips as she is gathering information about your income for her own solicitor. Though, that information would be on your joint bank statement, so I don't know why she would.

All I can say is, keep your head clear, and don't do anything hasty. Proceed as advised.

occupied · 13-01-2021 8:55pm

It sounds like she has completely detached from the relationship and is playing with the fantasy of being newly free and single. I'm sorry you're dealing with that, it must hurt.

I think you both need to have a conversation about money. The reality of how your finances are going to change. If she wants to break up, she needs to be prepared to accept a different lifestyle. It should probably start with her opening her own bank account and both of you agreeing to transfer a proportional amount into the joint account to cover expenses and bills until things are made more official.

Having all of the outgoings and incomings on a piece of paper (or powerpoint, whichever floats your boat!) will force your ex back down to earth for a bit. Perhaps at the moment she is thinking that her lifestyle and spending habits will continue but with her having a new man and you at home to mind the kids! (Nothing wrong with that down the line, but finances and living arrangements need to be sorted out fairly first!)

Have you both discussed money yet? How does she see things working out, financially? Is she prepared to work part time to enable her to live in the home with the kids, or even adjust her outgoings so she can afford to pay for her half of the family expenses?

Dtp1979 · 13-01-2021 9:03pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If it was WFP, you would be making the claim for it, not her.

It sounds suspect, to be honest. it may be she asked you for payslips as she is gathering information about your income for her own solicitor. Though, that information would be on your joint bank statement, so I don't know why she would.

All I can say is, keep your head clear, and don't do anything hasty. Proceed as advised.

Could she be taking out a loan on the joint account?

raclle · 13-01-2021 9:11pm

This is the **** that pisses me off and happens so often. Ends the marriage for someone else. Expects to stay in the family home whilst receiving mortgage and maintenance payments. Why are these people not treated more harshly in the eyes of the law whilst the other poor guy is left in poverty and misery

TheBoyConor · 13-01-2021 9:13pm

Skipduke wrote: »

What are the chances of her getting a council house? Single mother, no income. Presumably, this would be a reasonable option if you get to keep the property and she gets her own (cheap) space.

I hope she doesn't expect you to move out. Get legal advice asap. There are guys out there that would be glad to move into your cottage, with you pay the bills. The only fair thing in this situation is if she moves out and you continue to pay maintenance for the kids.

That is rubbish.

She won't have a hope in hell of getting a council house. The council will look at
the situation and say, well she has a home and is entitled to remain in it. Why would we give her a council house?

At the end of the day, a court will be extremely unlikely to order a mother with children to leave a shared or family home. A mother with small children would practically never be ordered out of a home, except in anything but the very most extreme and rarest circumstances of neglect and abuse. And even then, it would be doubtful.

I think the op needs to get used to the fact that herself will be staying put in the house for good, unless she voluntarily opts to vacate. Perhaps he could offer to buy her out of her share? She will have contributed equally so it will most likely be a 50/50 split. While she hasn't contributed all that much monetarily, she has contributed by way of staying at home keeping house and home and raising the children. Regardless of what anyone here things about that being a contribution, a court will absolutely see that as EQUAL contribution. Therefore, it doesn't matter if the husband earns €35k or €350k, the woman's work in the home will be viewed as being an equal contribution to the mortgage as what the man is paying into the mortgage.

All this is why marriage is a bad bet for any wily man. It is a wonder fellas get married at all in this day and age. Sure you don't even have to get married to get cleaned out, as this thread proves. We all know the story of the farmer man who walked up the aisle with a hundred acres and walked back down it with only 50 acres.

arccosh · 13-01-2021 9:28pm

sorry to read all this and I wish you luck with all of it dude.....

you were duped to thinking all was OK, I think it's safe to assume nothing out of her mouth now is the truth...

don't leave that house unless ordered to by a judge... if things look to be getting nasty, get a voice recorder app and always walk with your mobile on record...

I'm not sure I'd have the control you've shown.

Dave46 · 13-01-2021 9:28pm

I was going to discuss money with her tonight but im not now after finding out her little secret, im in absolute bits.
Thanks everyone for there help

Skipduke · 13-01-2021 9:29pm

op isn't even married -read the tread. but in the eyes of the court, he pretty much is, unfortunately. I know a couple that got married, 4 kids, renting a place. the man runs off with a new woman, earning a nice salary as a sparky. wife is a stay at home mom. she moved home to be nearer her family, got a house on HAP/council subsidised.. not sure which.

she can move out and get somewhere

Skipduke · 13-01-2021 9:32pm

Honestly one of the worst feelings, OP. But just know, things always get better with time. Once ye sort the house and money issues let her off. She might soon realise how good she had it. how'd you find out about the other man?

13-01-2021 9:42pm

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Could she be taking out a loan on the joint account?

I don't know for sure as I've never had a joint account.

But I would assume it would need both of them to sign for a loan if its a joint account.

glen123 · 13-01-2021 9:43pm

Dave46 wrote: »

247 per week + 280 childrens allowance per month total 1268 per month as apposed to my wages of 2236 per month

If you are on 560 after tax, you are getting 2426 per month (560 * 52 weeks / 12 months)

However, what you earn after tax is not relevant in a means test.

It's your Gross minus PRSI, Pension contributions, Union dues. Not tax.

So 35,000 after 1400 PRSI is 33600 (unless you pay pension contributions of some sort or union dues)

Weekly it's 646eur - this is your income for the purpose of a means test.

646 - (3 x 20eur) * 60% = 351.60 eur is your means.

Couple's JA rate + 2 kids is = (203 + 134.70 + 38 + 38) = 413.70 (assuming both kids are under 12)

413.70 - 351.60 (means) = 62.10 Jobseekers due per week.

You'd need to be on way less money for her to be able to get 247eur per week. In fact even if you were on practically min wage of 22k pa, she d only be able to claim around 204eur.

Just because she asked you for payslips doesn't mean anything, to be honest.

13-01-2021 9:47pm

Skipduke wrote: »

op isn't even married -read the tread. but in the eyes of the court, he pretty much is, unfortunately. I know a couple that got married, 4 kids, renting a place. the man runs off with a new woman, earning a nice salary as a sparky. wife is a stay at home mom. she moved home to be nearer her family, got a house on HAP/council subsidised.. not sure which.

she can move out and get somewhere

No she can't. The difference here is this couple have a joint mortgage on a house with both their names on it.

Until their split is formalised, she will not qualify for assistance with housing.

Gruffalux · 13-01-2021 9:49pm

Some things are not adding up here.

glen123 · 13-01-2021 9:51pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't know for sure as I've never had a joint account.

But I would assume it would need both of them to sign for a loan if its a joint account.

Most banks do paperwork these days electronically. What stops somebody from printing the paperwork, signing it for herself and himself and sending it back? Nothing really.

I once had a loan taken out jointly with my husband as we have a joint bank account - technically I could have signed everything myself and posted it back and nobody would have known as nobody from the bank spoke once to my husband.

TheBoyConor · 13-01-2021 9:55pm

Dave46 wrote: »

Just found out she has been messaging an old male friend from england!!!! Very flirty texts between the 2 of them, now im really in the ****.
Thank god for covid and the travel ban

Could've told you that the minute you posted the first post.

How did you find that out anyway?

13-01-2021 10:03pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

At the end of the day, a court will be extremely unlikely to order a mother with children to leave a shared or family home. A mother with small children would practically never be ordered out of a home, except in anything but the very most extreme and rarest circumstances of neglect and abuse. And even then, it would be doubtful.

Actually, where there is significant equity in the home, (sufficient to give both parties a decent deposit and a chance at a fresh start), more and more judges will consider ordering the houses to be sold sooner rather than later - especially if the children are younger.

Younger children are more adaptable to a change in circumstances and where possible Judges are leaning less and less towards leaving one party stuck renting for many years.

I've know of a couple of cases where one partner petitioned for the house to be sold on that basis, and they won. It might be something for the OP to think about.

raclle · 13-01-2021 10:05pm

Gruffalux wrote: »

Some things are not adding up here.

She's probably claiming as a single parent?

Gruffalux · 13-01-2021 10:10pm

raclle wrote: »

She's probably claiming as a single parent?

Yeah. Thats what I'm thinking.
I'm also wondering about the sudden insertion of the old flame.

raclle · 13-01-2021 10:14pm

Gruffalux wrote: »

I'm also wondering about the sudden insertion of the old flame.

It does seem a bit odd considering he's in England. Is that enough to end a 10 year relationship and be kicked out

13-01-2021 10:20pm

raclle wrote: »

She's probably claiming as a single parent?

I was thinking disability.

If she made a claim for One Parent Family Payment, she would have to give his name and address on the application and he should have been contacted by the maintenance recovery unit for an assessment.

She'd also be on around €305 per week, (203+38+38+ fuel allowance).

Unless (and this is a leap) she needed his payslips as she is declaring his income for maintenance purposes. Leading to a reduced payment.

If that is what she is doing, she is ballsy (and not in a good way).

Gruffalux · 13-01-2021 10:22pm

raclle wrote: »

It does seem a bit odd considering he's in England. Is that enough to end a 10 year relationship and be kicked out

Maybe OP suddenly went looking now that the rubber has hit the road. I dunno. My suspicious mind..

What I do know is we had similar income from 1 parent with other being full time parent and stay home parent would never have been entitled to anything beyond child allowance. Cannot see how it works in this case unless JSB.

LegacyUser · 13-01-2021 10:29pm

dohboy wrote: »

Go to a solicitor. Don't take any other advice from here.

How do you pin down who is a good family law solicitor?

kravmaga wrote: »

@ Dave46

Get whatever money you have out of the joint account asap before she blows it all.

You have got to take back control of your money. Get onto the bank in the morning, put a stop on the cards and freeze the account. "If she has a credit card get it cancelled also and cut it up if you have to."

Set up a current account in your own name asap and sign up for a Revolut card, No fees on them.

www.flac.ie

I would say the OP couldnt cancel another persons card, even if he cut it up, the girlfriend could easily get a replacement, maybe even still spend while waiting on it to turn up. I would think it might even be considered to be spousal abuse, that was something thrown in my face despite my wife spending like mad alongside other problems.

Deleted User wrote: »

Equity would usually be divided based on what they had each put in, over the years of their relationship, and would be a once off settlement.

If you meant child maintenance after the separation, then yes, I'd agree with that.

e.g. 50/50 shared custody would result in minimal child maintenance, if any (there will always be some shared costs).

What might a wife expect to get if anything when she wasn't around to contribute to a house purchase so never contributed to the initial outlay purchase costs, then contributed so little it barely covered utility bills and food, and not the mortgage, insurances or maintenance. Deeds and mortgage in my name. She earns more than me, has run up huge debts but there is nothing to show for what it was spent on, she barely contributed a half share of costs until last year and thats just breaking even, despite my mortgage being significantly lower than rent for a similar property being higher, she hasn't from what I can see, saved a penny.

glen123 · 13-01-2021 10:33pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I was thinking disability.

If she made a claim for One Parent Family Payment, she would have to give his name and address on the application and he should have been contacted by the maintenance recovery unit for an assessment.

She'd also be on around €305 per week, (203+38+38+ fuel allowance).

Unless (and this is a leap) she needed his payslips as she is declaring his income for maintenance purposes. Leading to a reduced payment.

If that is what she is doing, she is ballsy (and not in a good way).

Disability has the same rates as JA and the same means test

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/disability_and_illness/disability_allowance.html#l62fd2

road_high · 13-01-2021 10:48pm

How did you find out about the texts OP? Do you think there’s more to it?

Dave46 · 13-01-2021 10:53pm

road_high wrote: »

How did you find out about the texts OP? Do you think there’s more to it?

A mutual friend told me this evening on the quiet, i will keep it to myself and wont let on i know see how things pan out,

13-01-2021 10:55pm

road_high wrote: »

How did you find out about the texts OP? Do you think there’s more to it?

There's probably only a limited number of ways it could happen, Id think it would be inadvisable for the OP to say how for a few reasons,
It might not sound reasonable and could get turned on by people or give them away and drop them in it, or they might just have overheard or found something left laying about.

Rodin · 14-01-2021 12:59am

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Try and keep your cool. Any verbal abuse you throw at her will be used against you.

And the texts against her...

charlie14 · 14-01-2021 1:13am

Dave46 wrote: »

My girlfriend has decided she wants to break up with me and me to move out, we are not married but we have 2 children together,
I was given the site by my father worth 150000 at the time i got planning for the house solely on my own as she is not from the area (gaeltacht)
We got a joint mortage for 210000 to build and are about 10 years into the mortgage with another 20 years to go. The house is currently valued at 350000. Any advice on where i stand on this issue i work fulltime salary 35000 per year she doesnt work,
Thanks in advance

A married female friend of mine went through this a few years ago. Husband moved out. Three kids, one had moved out a year before and the other two in college. She worked earning around 25K per annum. Husband around 100K.
Some here have said consult a solicitor, but if that was me from what I saw with her, is consult by all means, but make sure the solicitor in no way contacts her. That just starts a vicious circle where nobody wins other than solicitors.
Husband offered her a 60% split on the sale of the house. Two years later court ruled a 60- 40 split, house to be sold within a year and both of them ended up with massive solicitors fees.
An agreed consultation service rather than solicitors would be my advice for what it`s worth.

html6 · 14-01-2021 1:40am

No doubt your head is spinning, there is the tightest knot in your stomach and heart. You can't control what she does but you can control yourself. You have to let her go. As I said only talk about the kids and other house business. Keep moving forward and bettering yourself. You lead and she will follow when she sees you moving forward without her.

Ta me cinnte gur beidh tu ceart go leoir

charlie14 · 14-01-2021 2:08am

Dave46 wrote: »

Just found out she has been messaging an old male friend from england!!!! Very flirty texts between the 2 of them, now im really in the ****.
Thank god for covid and the travel ban

I know it feels like betrayal on her part, but other than that it will make no difference.Courts do not award on the basis of who is to blame.

The payslip issue I would be more worried about. Sounds as if she has got involved with a solicitor. Could you possibly get her to understand that both of you having to pay solicitors large fees for drawing this out clocking up billing hours is in neither of your financial interests ?

Mimon · 14-01-2021 9:01am

TheBoyConor wrote: »

There is no automatic right no, but that doesn't mean a judge would take custody from a mother willy nilly. There would have to be a set of extremely compelling and serious indisputable circumstances before a judge would take custody away from a mother. For example, repeated instances of neglect that has not been resolved by repeated interventions, the mother being a clear danger to the children through behaviours like drug use and violence, profound mental instability etc.

She might not have contributed much to the mortgage monetarily, but by her work in the home and raising the children, she could have could have claim to a significant share as there will be a value attached to that work in the home.

What about 50/50 custody. Surely no judge should deny this if the man wants it?

Means she can move out and be responsible for a roof over her and the kids heads for that half custody time.

Peregrinus · 14-01-2021 9:17am

Mimon wrote: »

What about 50/50 custody. Surely no judge should deny this if the man wants it?

Means she can move out and be responsible for a roof over her and the kids heads for that half custody time.

The paramount consideration is not going to be what the man wants, or what the woman wants; it's what's going to be in the best interests of the kids. A strict 50% split of the custody, which necessarily involves, e.g., going to and from school from different homes on different days of the week, or different weeks of the term, is not necessarily optimal from the kid's point of view.

14-01-2021 12:23pm

charlie14 wrote: »

An agreed consultation service rather than solicitors would be my advice for what it`s worth.

I think you mean Collaborative Practice?

That can work very well if both parties agree to it.

Dave46 · 14-01-2021 12:35pm

html6 wrote: »

No doubt your head is spinning, there is the tightest knot in your stomach and heart. You can't control what she does but you can control yourself. You have to let her go. As I said only talk about the kids and other house business. Keep moving forward and bettering yourself. You lead and she will follow when she sees you moving forward without her.

Ta me cinnte gur beidh tu ceart go leoir

Grma

Mimon · 14-01-2021 1:49pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

The paramount consideration is not going to be what the man wants, or what the woman wants; it's what's going to be in the best interests of the kids. A strict 50% split of the custody, which necessarily involves, e.g., going to and from school from different homes on different days of the week, or different weeks of the term, is not necessarily optimal from the kid's point of view.

No situation in a split up is optimal. Life isn't optimal. Can't see the issue with this if both parents are living in the same area.

charlie14 · 14-01-2021 1:51pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I think you mean Collaborative Practice?

That can work very well if both parties agree to it.

Thanks for that.

That is exactly what I meant. Reading back my own post it gives the impression that I was advising a consultation process where they could attempt working through their problems.
They may decide to do that anyway at some point, but right now rather than having solicitors fighting corners and clocking up billing ours, they would be better contacting a collaborative practice that will without bias tell each where the stand legally and give them a clear understanding of how the court will rule on financial, property and family matters in regards to the children.
If they both can come to an agreement it will be legally binding, and in my friends case had she gone that way, a hell of a lot cheaper for both parties than the solely legal route for the same result.

14-01-2021 2:02pm

Mimon wrote: »

No situation in a split up is optimal. Life isn't optimal. Can't see the issue with this if both parents are living in the same area.

Birdnesting or "nesting parenting" is becoming an increasingly popular way for seperated parents to co-parent, though the prices of rent here may be a stumbling block.

It's where the kids stay put in their home, and both parents rotate in and out of it, instead of the kids.

html6 · 14-01-2021 2:08pm

As I said better yourself and also your children. Your health comes first. Don't stop there start developing other interests. If you enjoy your work get a promotion or ask for a raise. If you keep moving forward with your kids she will be left behind.

When she realizes she is being left behind she will try to come back to you. By which time it may be to late for her and she will have to pull up trees to get back to you. Don't be malicious about it but you have to cut her out. You have to be strong and extremely cool.

2012paddy2012 · 14-01-2021 2:26pm

limnam wrote: »

If they're not married I don't believe that to be true.

Do you have a source for this? Be interested to get clued up on it

It is true. Married / living together , makes no odds .

Peregrinus · 15-01-2021 3:30am

limnam wrote: »

If they're not married I don't believe that to be true.

Do you have a source for this? Be interested to get clued up on it

Civil Partnership and Certain Rights and Obligations of Cohabitants Act 2010. Check out Part 15 (section 177 onwards).

Basically, if you and your current reason for living "live together as a couple in an intimate and committed relationship" you are "cohabitants". And if you have been cohabitants for 5 years, or if you have been cohabitants for 2 years and have had a child together, you are "qualified cohabitants". And if you are qualified cohabitants and your relationship breaks down, then either of you can seek the same range of maintenance orders, property adjustment orders, attachment of earnings orders, etc that would be available if you were a married couple whose relationship had broken down.

In order to get one of these orders you'll have to satisfy the court that you are financially dependent on your partner. But couples who cohabit for any period of time are nearly always financially interdependent, so this isn't a big hurdle.

15-01-2021 1:05pm

This also seems to be the case?

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/problems_in_marriages_and_other_relationships/property_rights_and_the_breakdown_of_a_cohabiting_relationship.html

If a cohabiting couple splits up, the family home (and other family assets) will belong to the person who holds the legal title to the home/assets. This means that in the case of the family home, the person who originally bought the house and whose name is on the title deeds will usually own the house.
This also applies to a married couple who split up. Marriage does not automatically give you ownership of your spouse’s assets. Where the family home was bought and registered in both spouses’ names, they are the joint owners. However, where the house is registered in the name of one spouse only, it may be solely that spouse’s property.

15-01-2021 1:08pm

same link
Which suggests if someone hasn't contributed financially isnt necessarily entitled to ownership,
A person cant just say, Im out and I'll take your assets with me, so Id be very careful in dealings with them or giving them any further information.
edit, someone may have their name on the mortgage or deeds (not sure how so if they are on benefits, maybe they weren't at the time of application), although they may have less claim if they didn't contribute financially.

Rules

If your relationship breaks down and your name is not on the title deeds to the house, you may still be able to show that you have some ownership rights in relation to the house. These rights are based on the fact that you made a contribution to the purchase price of the house with the intention of gaining a share in the ownership of the house.
Contributions to the purchase price of the house can be direct or indirect. Direct contributions include contributions to the initial down payment for the house or contributions to the mortgage installments. Indirect contributions may include paying some of the other day-to-day household expenses or unpaid work in the legal owner of the house's business. It has been held by the courts that working in the home looking after children and money spent or work done on home improvements are not contributions that give you any right of ownership in relation to the house.
Usually, where you can show that you have made a contribution to the purchase price of the house, you will be entitled to a share in the house in proportion to your contribution. For example, if you have shown that you paid off half of a mortgage that represented 90% of the purchase price, you would be entitled to 45% of the ownership of the property.
As well as showing that you made a financial contribution to the purchase price of the house, you must also show that your contribution was made with the intention of gaining a share in the ownership of the house and that you were not making a gift of the money to the legal owner of the house.

Ginger83 · 19-01-2021 6:35pm

occupied wrote: »

I have been in this situation (as the mother of three young kids at the time, they are all teens now) and my ex-husband refused to leave thehome we lived in for a few years after I ended the relationship.

It was absolutely awful. Just horrible for everyone for us to continue sharing a home. It was like living in a pressure cooker and was not a healthy environment for the kids. My kids all recall that time as being extremely unhappy with the adults arguing and feeling tense and stressed all of the time because of the living situation. It might work better in a bigger house where there is more space so the parents are not under each others feet all the time but I wouldn't advise this course of action at all unless there is absolutely no other option.

I stayed in the family home after my ex finally moved out as I was and still am the primary carer. This suited my ex as he could focus on his career without having to worry about childcare. My ex rents a home now where the kids stay with him regularly and this arrangement has thankfully worked well for us.

The thing is, the children of parents who split up have not chosen to have their lives turned upside down. And from experience, the only thing that happens when the adults decide to wage war on each other is that the kids suffer horribly. My kids were very small when we broke up and they still remember the first few years after we separated. They heard all of the arguments behind closed doors and felt all of the tension. They all say they are much happier now, even though me and their dad live apart.

Please try to resist the urge to hurt your ex for leaving the relationship. And despite the posts on here that are dragging her through the mud and assuming that she will want to take you to the cleaners, she is still the mother of your children and your kids will be watching how you both treat each other in the coming months and years.

Not all women are out to get everything they can from their ex partner. I live in the family home, sure. But I am much worse off financially than my ex. I have spend many, many hours worrying about money and robbing Peter to pay Paul over the years. But it is still preferrable to staying in a relationship that was broken. I am content, my ex is happy and most importantly the kids are happy too. They have seen their parents treat each other with (mostly) respect and kindness and that has helped them feel safe and secure with having two parents living apart. I have never taken advantage over money and to that end my ex has never withheld maintenance or failed to share joint costs because we both understood that if we started playing silly buggers with each other the kids would be the ones to lose out. By all means, take advice on financial matters, but try not to use money to punish your ex.

You are right to seek professional advice. Just be wary of letting other hurt people colour your choices. It is possible to break up amicably, even with children and property involved. At the end of the day, the kids are the ones who will be most affected by you and your ex-g/f decisions from now on and they will rely on you both to help them adjust. Obviously it's a bit more complicated as you are not married but it's totally possible to reach an amicable agreement that works for both parties. You just don't read about it very often on here!

Best of luck. I know it sucks, but there will be a time when things are better again.

Your ex refused to leave his home after you ended things. Why should he?

Relationship breakup

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