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Padraig Pearse

124

Comments

  • #152
    Mairin1978
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Mairin1978


    Morlar wrote: »
    He was not married. He was reportedly in a relationship with a woman who drowned, he was reported to have been engaged to her. So it does seem as if you are approaching the subject from a skewed viewpoint, whereby the far more stastically likely probability is put on an equal footing with the far less statistically likely possibility and there seems to be no basis for this whatsoever. Couple this with the 'some psychologists suggest that he had not yet entered puberty' and it adds up to an imbalanced viewpoint in my opinion.

    I repeat, it was never "reported". In his tribute to Eveleen he referred to her as "a dear friend". He did not say "my would-be-wife". Again, I am not excluding the possibility that he fancied her romantically, but having vague longings is not incompatible with psychological/sexual delay. Even 12-year old boys fancy girls. If you read his poetry and prose, you'll see that the female figures in them are porcelain angels, not flesh-and-blood beings.


  • #153
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Mairin1978 wrote: »
    I repeat, it was never "reported". In his tribute to Eveleen he referred to her as "a dear friend". He did not say "my would-be-wife". Again, I am not excluding the possibility that he fancied her romantically, but having vague longings is not incompatible with psychological/sexual delay. Even 12-year old boys fancy girls. If you read his poetry and prose, you'll see that the female figures in them are porcelain angels, not flesh-and-blood beings.

    No offence but your assertions and suspicions seem to have no basis in fact whatsoever. I think they belong in the conspiracies forum. 'Some psychologists suggest' . . those have got to be among the 3 least convincing words in the english language. Along with 'not incompatible with'.


  • #154
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Mairin1978 wrote: »
    Please, site those sources. A few months ago when we chatted you appeared to hold a different opinion. I'd be interested to see what made you change your mind. I have "A Dark Day on the Blaskets", but even that book does not assert 100% that Pearse and Eveleen were engaged. The fact that they knew and respected each other is a confirmed fact. Was there anything beyond friendship?

    I cited my sources and looked at others but I could not find any facts to back up the hypothesis that Pearse was a homosexual.

    There was some issues which meant the family desired privacy but there was no secrecy.

    Now , why would a one time magazine editor and teacher leave copius correspondence -they wont . There is no literary estate or politicians library.

    I didn't realise until I looked that what is being passed off as history is speculation and a badly researched biography referencing another does not do the historians any credit.

    Part of the fun of this thread has been that.

    Brianthebard ,the Moderator, is a good guy and academic and looked at the reasonableness of the sources. One of the family commented too
    Being browsing Pearse Story. You have uncovered a great deal of material, some of which I am familiar with but there are other bits and pieces that I must spend some time studying.
    Most interesting. My Great-grandfather was Alfred Ignatius Mc Gloughlin. He married Emily Pearse daughter of James Pearse and Susanna (Emily) Fox

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71876048&postcount=116
    He is a descendant of the half sister of Patrick & William and the big sister who taught them to read.

    So if he or the family are not prone to snap comments and judgements on his relative maybe we should not be either.

    On Pearses piece on Eveleen Nicholls. Well , it was the 1900's in Catholic Ireland where it was considered libelous to comment on a woman's virtue. Commenting on a dead womans virtue was a no-no.

    Getting engaged was a serious business and not going thru with a marriage could mean a civil suit for "breach of promise" & damages.

    So the book "A Dark Day on the Blaskets" will assume these cultural reference points.


  • #155
    Mairin1978
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Mairin1978


    Morlar wrote: »
    No offence but your assertions and suspicions seem to have no basis in fact whatsoever. I think they belong in the conspiracies forum. 'Some psychologists suggest' . . those have got to be among the 3 least convincing words in the english language. Along with 'not incompatible with'.

    Um... I am not involved enough to generate any conspiracy theories. And I don't assert anything, merely quote certain sources. You are the one who seems so convinced that Pearse was involved with Eveleen. Read "Little Lad of the Tricks".:D

    Do I come across as someone who's aiming to convince anyone of anything?


  • #156
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Mairin1978 wrote: »
    Um... I am not involved enough to generate any conspiracy theories. And I don't assert anything, merely quote certain sources. You are the one who seems so convinced that Pearse was involved with Eveleen. Read "Little Lad of the Tricks".:D

    Do I come across as someone who's aiming to convince anyone of anything?

    I have read it and yes it seems certain that you are out to cast doubts and aspersions on his sexuality, only without a reasonable level of evidence to back it up.


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  • #157
    Mairin1978
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Mairin1978


    CDfm wrote: »
    I cited my sources and looked at others but I could not find any facts to back up the hypothesis that Pearse was a homosexual.

    There was some issues which meant the family desired privacy but there was no secrecy.

    Now , why would a one time magazine editor and teacher leave copius correspondence -they wont . There is no literary estate or politicians library.

    I didn't realise until I looked that what is being passed off as history is speculation and a badly researched biography referencing another does not do the historians any credit.

    Part of the fun of this thread has been that.

    Brianthebard ,the Moderator, is a good guy and academic and looked at the reasonableness of the sources. One of the family commented too

    He is a descendant of the half sister of Patrick & William and the big sister who taught them to read.

    So if he or the family are not prone to snap comments and judgements on his relative maybe we should not be either.

    On Pearses piece on Eveleen Nicholls. Well , it was the 1900's in Catholic Ireland where it was considered libelous to comment on a woman's virtue. Commenting on a dead womans virtue was a no-no.

    Getting engaged was a serious business and not going thru with a marriage could mean a civil suit for "breach of promise" & damages.

    So the book "A Dark Day on the Blaskets" will assume these cultural reference points.

    Ummm.... Am I having a braindead day today? Don't seem to be able to get my point across. Homosexuality is not the only alternative to traditional heterosexuality. Asexuality is a perfectly viable choice. And let's not get too carried away with the notion of Catholic Ireland being a place of fanatical chastity. Catholic Ireland was also a home to one of Europe's largest red light districts.

    I didn't realize we needed anyone's special permission from Pearse's relatives to trade ideas and site passages from books written by others. I am not "married" to Moran or Dudley Edwards ideologically. I don't consider their books to be Holy Gospel. Still, they should not be dismissed 100%, as there is such thing as peer review in non-fiction publishing.


  • #158
    Mairin1978
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Mairin1978


    Morlar wrote: »
    I have read it and yes it seems certain that you are out to cast doubts and aspersions on his sexuality, only without a reasonable level of evidence to back it up.

    Hate to disappoint you, but I'm not suggesting anything that hasn't been suggested before. You appear to be the paranoid one here, thinking that I have some sort of agenda. Casting doubts and questioning and wondering is not the same as asserting. Let's just say... when a grown man writes about kissing a male child on the lips, that's a little... hm...


  • #159
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Mairin1978 wrote: »
    You appear to be the paranoid one here, thinking that I have some sort of agenda. Casting doubts and questioning and wondering is not the same as asserting. Let's just say... when a grown man writes about kissing a male child on the lips, that's a little... hm...

    Not paranoid in the slightest.

    My view is that your approach is distorted. I have asked you directly why you would give equal weight to different possibilities, while the most statistically likely one is the one you seem to disregard at every opportunity, and on no reasonable basis whatsoever.

    I'd base my opinion that your approach (to the subject of P.P's sexuality) is skewed on the evidence of the posts you have made across the last page or so of this thread. With respect I think it is time to stop feeding the troll.


  • #160
    Paddy De Plasterer
    Registered Users Posts: 360 ✭✭Paddy De Plasterer


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    Patrick and Willie had 2 half sisters of whom have living relatives today. Their father was a protestant, though most of his work was for Catholic Churches. The boys mother was a catholic and they were raised Catholics.

    Yes, no one seems to know they had half sisters, but as I said in an earlier post, Pearses great great grand nephew has the exact same features as Pearse himself, amazing how it has travelled to this day in the family's genes!

    Pearse's converted to Roman Catholicism purpose of which of course was for his business, inserting altar rails and such is all the new chuches being built around that time.
    There is some evidence that Patrick had a fondness for young boys.


  • #161
    Mairin1978
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Mairin1978


    Morlar wrote: »
    Not paranoid in the slightest.

    My view is that your approach is distorted. I have asked you directly why you would give equal weight to different possibilities, while the most statistically likely one is the one you seem to disregard at every opportunity, and on no reasonable basis whatsoever.

    I'd base my opinion that your approach (to the subject of P.P's sexuality) is skewed on the evidence of the posts you have made across the last page or so of this thread. With respect I think it is time to stop feeding the troll.

    The reason why I give equal weight to different possibilities is because I was not there, and I was not inside Pearse's head. And you cannot regard him from the point of view of statistics, because he defied the statistics.

    By the way, the proper term is "trawl", not "troll". In other words, if one's opinion does not coincide with yours, that makes one a trawl? Gee, that's really logical.


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  • #162
    Mairin1978
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Mairin1978


    Paddy De Plasterer wrote: »
    Pearse's converted to Roman Catholicism purpose of which of course was for his business, inserting altar rails and such is all the new chuches being built around that time.
    There is some evidence that Patrick had a fondness for young boys.

    Enough evidence to make a mother of a boy scratch her head in bewilderment and think twice about sending her son to his school.


  • #163
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Paddy De Plasterer wrote: »
    Pearse's converted to Roman Catholicism purpose of which of course was for his business, inserting altar rails and such is all the new chuches being built around that time.
    .

    He did some beautiful altars that are still in use with a very distinctive modern style often substantially better than the churches they were in.

    He converted to get married to a Catholic following the death of his first wife and he married a girl who worked in a local shop.
    There is some evidence that Patrick had a fondness for young boys
    Mairin1978 wrote: »
    Enough evidence to make a mother of a boy scratch her head in bewilderment and think twice about sending her son to his school.

    There is a piece of writing by Pearse "little lad of tricks" that has attracted analysis.

    It is controvercial.



    Pearse challenged the homophobia of his times
    From Peter Pallas
    I SEE Dick Keane was on his favourite hobby-horse (29 September) taking an opportunistic stick to Patrick Pearse on the issue of the commemorative stamp. Whatever about the issue of the stamp, he (Keane) takes a cynical, despicable and personal opportunity to accuse Pearse, by inference, of child molestation, in quoting his poem.


    If Pearse was around in this enlightened time, his poem would be lauded, not only by the 'gay' community, but by all open-minded people. To publish a poem of such nature in the homophobic times in which Pearse lived was the act of a brave man indeed. In that context, he went on to prove his bravery later, when he, and men and women of his ilk, fought for, and died, to rid this country of the yoke of British imperialism.


    Peter Pallas,


    Toberteascain,


    Ennis, Co Clare.


    October 12, 2008

    Comments

    #1 Terry Jennings commented, on October 13, 2008 at 3:25 p.m.: That poem by Pearse has been presented as homoerotic, but this might be overlooking a 19th century poetic trend of romanticisation of childhood innocence.
    It would help if a literary critic from academia with a specialist interest in 19th century English, predominantly British, romantic poetry would offer some observations on the literary idealisation of childhood.
    Wordsworth did believe the Rousseauist idea that the small child is basically good but that as it gets older the evil experiences of adulthood 'ensnare the growing boy'. cf. Intimations of Immortality and other poems.
    My own view of Pearse was that he was sexless and would never have married had he survived 1916. I'd say he was married to St. Enda's and the de-anglicisation of Irish culture and was too oblivious of sex and erotic feelings to harbour homoerotic or pederast feelings. I wouldn't enlist Freud into a close reading of his poem.


    http://www.tribune.ie/article/2008/oct/12/pearse-challenged-the-homophobia-of-his-times/

    The one way to derail a Pearse thread is to make allegations of child abuse.

    Innuendo ain't facts.

    Why cant a parent decide not to send a child to a school?


  • #164
    Mairin1978
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Mairin1978


    What have I been trying to get across all this time? He was asexual. His development in that regard never culminated. Sexual infantilism is a form of asexuality. There are people who have very vague idea of what sexuality is, and they have very low libido, or they channel it into other things. His good friend MacDonagh, who had studied to be a priest, went on to have a perfectly happy marriage. You don't see MacDonagh (or Plunkett for that matter) gushing over the physique of young boys.

    I do commend Pearse on not fathering any children. Otherwise they would've been left orphans. It's really sad what happened to MacDonagh's wife and kids. I know I'm going to get bombarded with rotten spuds for saying that, but if you have children, you don't have the liberty to dispose of your life like that. You have to make a choice: either your Cause or your family.


  • #165
    Mairin1978
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Mairin1978


    Paddy De Plasterer wrote: »
    Pearse's converted to Roman Catholicism purpose of which of course was for his business, inserting altar rails and such is all the new chuches being built around that time.

    James Pearse was a cynical enough man to do that - to convert to Catholicism for convenience. In reality, he was an agnostic, so it didn't matter to him what religion he officially belonged to. He also made the spelling of his name more Gaelic. Originally it was Pierce.


  • #166
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    For those who do not know the poem

    Here is the UCC link

    http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/E950004-009/text001.html

    Sisson is on much firmer ground when interpreting the productions themselves in the context of Pearse's wider canon. Some readers, especially those wed to the image of the saintly martyr of 1916, may shy away from her frank discussion of Pearse's sexuality and its relationship to his art. Much like Thomas MacDonagh and Joseph Mary Plunkett, who tried to dissuade Pearse from publishing his pederastic 1909 poem "Little Lad of the Tricks," they may not want to acknowledge that such impulses existed. But as Sisson persuasively argues, there is a difference between impulse and action. And "it was," she notes, "the sublimation of Pearse's sexuality that produced such a remarkable interweaving of discourses on aesthetics, martyrdom, masculinity and nationhood" (p. 152). In numerous plays, stories, and poems, Pearse the artist fixated on the figure of the fair-haired macaomh, who sacrificed for others or inspired them to act. Meanwhile, through stagecraft, Pearse the educator encouraged his students to embody these same boys, figuratively at least--a message which was not lost on the students themselves or on their audiences.

    http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=11097

    Wasn't there also some speculation at some stage that Pearse was a child model for artists and was an abuse victim himself based on his own writtings

    Few visitors came to our house. My father had not ,many intimate friends. Those who did come to see him were mostly artists whom he had known in other place, and who looked in upon him when passing through Dublin. I liked them for their quaint costumes, and their humour and gentleness . Ever since I have looked upon painters and sculptors as a kindly and loveable and pathetic race.
    Most of those who came to see us seemed poor, and many of them seemed sad. There was one who used to kiss my little sister tenderly ands say: 'God bless thee, little one!' And when he was going away he used to say that my father was fortunate to have children around him.
    Many of these visitors made drawings and paintings of me; sometimes of my head only, and sometimes of my whole body without any clothes on. They said I had a thoughtful face, and that I was finely shaped. I think what they valued me chiefly for was my faculty of remaining still for a long time.
    I liked the stand - or, better still, to lie - without my clothes in the warmth of the fire, and to think out my thoughts. Some of the longest stories I ever made up about myself were made up while a man was making a picture of me stretched on my face with my chin resting on my hands. He said I was the best and quietest little model he had ever had. I used to be drawn and modelled and painted by people until my father and mother thought I was getting too big.


    http://pillar.ds4a.com/padraicpearse/biofrag.htm

    The other explanation of the poem is that something happened him.


  • #167
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Mairin1978 wrote: »
    He also made the spelling of his name more Gaelic. Originally it was Pierce.

    Speculation asthe Pierce families in Cork, Kerry & Wexford all use the Pierce spelling.

    Here is a RC family from Kerry in 1825 .

    http://www.carsonjohnson.com/chapter16-pierce.htm


  • #168
    Mairin1978
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Mairin1978


    One thing is certain: Pearse did not have a cloudless childhood. He was a very confused little boy, neglected by his father, smothered by the female relatives in his life. He did not have a balanced upbringing.


  • #169
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Mairin1978 wrote: »
    One thing is certain: Pearse did not have a cloudless childhood.

    I think you are looking at him in the wrong way.

    We have sparse knowledge of his childhood. And from the very begining his family stayed schtum. His close friends also were dead or kept quiet.

    So there are few real sources.


    He was a very confused little boy, neglected by his father,

    There is no evidence his father neglected him by the standards of the day and if so how ?

    He joined the gaelic league as a teen and hung out with the great and good.

    The Pearse family were prosperous tradespeople and went on to be college educated when people were not.
    smothered by the female relatives in his life. He did not have a balanced upbringing.

    Women raised kids in those days.

    As an adult he had a holiday home in Connemara ran a successful magazine , inherited a share in a business that closed during a recession and made a disasterous decision to move his school from where it was accessable and running at a modest profit in Ranelagh to inaccessable Rathfarnham.
    .


  • #170
    Mairin1978
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Mairin1978


    But you see, I don't think he had that many friends. Mostly colleagues/comrades. He was attached to his brother, very much.

    I don't think there's a right or wrong way to look at Pearse. The man was an enigma. You can either view him as a hero/martyr or as a madman.


  • #171
    Mairin1978
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Mairin1978


    Re: unbalanced upbringing. His parents were an ill-matched couple. Their marriage was unbalanced. His mother being much younger than his father and intellectually inferior. She was simple, emotional and affectionate, while James was aloof, depressed and intellectual. He was not emotionally available to his children. Even by the standards of the day he was an aloof father. I mean, look at Tom MacDonagh, how he doted on his kids (that didn't prevent him from getting killed).


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  • #172
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Mairin1978 wrote: »
    But you see, I don't think he had that many friends. Mostly colleagues/comrades. He was attached to his brother, very much.

    He had McDonagh and Plunkett
    I don't think there's a right or wrong way to look at Pearse. The man was an enigma. You can either view him as a hero/martyr or as a madman.

    Factually is a good way
    Mairin1978 wrote: »
    Re: unbalanced upbringing. His parents were an ill-matched couple. Their marriage was unbalanced. His mother being much younger than his father and intellectually inferior. She was simple, emotional and affectionate, while James was aloof, depressed and intellectual. He was not emotionally available to his children. Even by the standards of the day he was an aloof father..

    James blamed his first wife for the deaths of two young children and all accounts of the marriage describe it happily.


  • #173
    Mairin1978
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Mairin1978


    MacDonagh and Plunkett were both misfits to an extent. MacDonagh had the stigma of being a "spoiled priest", and Plunkett had medical issues and a mentally abusive mother. And they were the ones who urged him not to publish "Little Lad".

    As for James Pearse's marriage, there is evidence that the spouses had a falling out after Mary Brigit's birth. It's suggested that all physical intimacy between them stopped. Again, I use the word "suggested". Oh, the horror!:D


  • #174
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Mairin1978 wrote: »
    MacDonagh and Plunkett were both misfits to an extent. MacDonagh had the stigma of being a "spoiled priest", and Plunkett had medical issues and a mentally abusive mother. And they were the ones who urged him not to publish "Little Lad".

    I am not fans of either but I think you are reading too much into it.

    There is no evidence that Pierce abused anyone.


    As for James Pearse's marriage, there is evidence that the spouses had a falling out after Mary Brigit's birth. It's suggested that all physical intimacy between them stopped. Again, I use the word "suggested". Oh, the horror!:D

    Evidence please and a reference.


  • #175
    Mairin1978
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Mairin1978


    I never said that Pearse abused anyone sexually. Now, putting those ideas of blood sacrifice into children's heads is a different story, but I won't go into it.

    There are letters in which Margaret expressed her hostility and disappointment with James. Also, it's odd that she did not have children after Mary Brigit. She was only 27 at the time.


  • #176
    JohnFalstaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 878 ✭✭✭JohnFalstaff


    Bloody Pearse! Always the same arguments repeated and rehashed. I respect what you're trying to do CDfm, but Pearse has passed beyond pure history at this stage. At this remove 'Facts' count for as little as myth and as far as we are concerned the man and the myth are inseparable. No amount of facts will give us the truth behind the man.

    For what it's worth I think both parties in this argument are partly right - I reckon Pearse held a candle for Eibhlin Nic Niocaill and, following her death, subsequently sublimated his desire into the cause of Ireland and the future generations that might 'renew the flame' so to speak. Moving his school to Rathfarnham was as much about engaging with the spirit of Robert Emmet as it was for practical reasons.

    What I have a problem with is people writing Pearse off as one of the 'useful idiots'. I also think that it's very dangerous to try and comprehend the minds of men like Pearse from our modern standpoint.

    I'm surprised more references haven't been made to Pearse's autobiographical fragment The Home Life of Patrick Pearse - lots of good information relating to this thread in there. The recent Life and After Life of P.H. Pearse, Roisin Higgins & Regina Ni Chollatain eds. also addresses much of the same material.


  • #177
    Mairin1978
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Mairin1978


    John, I would be delighted to get a copy of "Home Life", but I just can't seem to find it anywhere! Is it out of print? There are parts of it cited in Moran's biography.


  • #178
    JohnFalstaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 878 ✭✭✭JohnFalstaff


    The copy I read was from the National Library and I know there is a copy in the Kevin Street Library, but I don't know how readily available the book is in bookshops etc. It is quoted extensively in The Life and After Life of P.H. Pearse which I referenced above.


  • #179
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Mairin1978 wrote: »
    I never said that Pearse abused anyone sexually. Now, putting those ideas of blood sacrifice into children's heads is a different story, but I won't go into it.

    Lots of countries made a virtue of the same thing and its not specific to Irish nationalists.

    I have posted before that my grandfather was a volunteer in the rising and did not want his grandchildren to have those ideas.

    Michael Collins also felt that blood sacrafice was a waste.
    There are letters in which Margaret expressed her hostility and disappointment with James. Also, it's odd that she did not have children after Mary Brigit. She was only 27 at the time.

    Maybe so -but lots of couples have fights. and make up etc.
    JohnFalstaff wrote: »
    Bloody Pearse! Always the same arguments repeated and rehashed. I respect what you're trying to do CDfm, but Pearse has passed beyond pure history at this stage. At this remove 'Facts' count for as little as myth and as far as we are concerned the man and the myth are inseparable. No amount of facts will give us the truth behind the man.

    But the facts give a completely different narative to his life
    For what it's worth I think both parties in this argument are partly right - I reckon Pearse held a candle for Eibhlin Nic Niocaill and, following her death, subsequently sublimated his desire into the cause of Ireland and the future generations that might 'renew the flame' so to speak. Moving his school to Rathfarnham was as much about engaging with the spirit of Robert Emmet as it was for practical reasons.

    Or was it simply because his attempts to raise finance to buy the building failed.
    What I have a problem with is people writing Pearse off as one of the 'useful idiots'. I also think that it's very dangerous to try and comprehend the minds of men like Pearse from our modern standpoint.

    +1
    I'm surprised more references haven't been made to Pearse's autobiographical fragment The Home Life of Patrick Pearse - lots of good information relating to this thread in there. The recent Life and After Life of P.H. Pearse, Roisin Higgins & Regina Ni Chollatain eds. also addresses much of the same material.

    I have quoted from it a few times his biographical writings a few times.

    I am against the type of history that says -missing something then make it up & that is fiction.Thats not analysis its bull****.

    We do not need speculation on Pearse if the material is not there.

    Pearse scholars seem to be a very lazy bunch trading in innuendo and non-sequitors.


  • #180
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Morlar wrote: »
    No offence but your assertions and suspicions seem to have no basis in fact whatsoever. I think they belong in the conspiracies forum. 'Some psychologists suggest' . . those have got to be among the 3 least convincing words in the english language. Along with 'not incompatible with'.

    I got one, 'modern day druid'


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  • #181
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Something I would like to know about is the Pearse families English ancestry.

    His father emigrated from Birmingham.

    James Pearse died on a visit to his brother there in 1900.


  • #182
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I was very bemused to see an article by Ruth Dudley Edwards on Wikileaks.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/ruth-dudley-edwards/ruth-dudley-edwards-confidentiality-no-longer-exists-2666654.html

    Some quotes stand out
    The job of US diplomats -- like that of diplomats everywhere -- is to try to understand the country they're serving in,

    She nailed that alright and does not seem to understand Pearse at all.
    Julian Assange, the founder of WikiLeaks, seems to hate the US in a lefty kind of way and revelled in being for a time its Public Enemy Number One,

    She writes for controversy and her own noterity


    Diplomats get their information as journalists do: they read, listen and talk to people in the know. There was almost nothing in the Ireland cables that couldn't have been written by well-connected hacks.

    Except where the available evidence points in one direction -she takes a leap in the dark for an unsupportable conclusion not backed by evidence.

    And this one
    Like hacks, diplomats vary in quality and judgement, so cables to the State Department contain their fair share of errors as well as insights.

    It all really could be written about her writtings on Patrick Pearse.

    I would really like to see a stripped down biography of Pearse (and other Irish figures) based on the available evidence. I will bet we would have some slimmed down volumes.

    We know the bare facts but Pearse does not seem to have been properly researched by anyone & the "insights" we get are not supportable.

    In the almost 100 years since Pearse died -no one has managed to speak to or get the opinions of his family . That information gets lost in time.


  • #183
    premierlass
    Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭premierlass


    Ruth Dudley Edwards wrote:
    Diplomats get their information as journalists do: they read, listen and talk to people in the know. There was almost nothing in the Ireland cables that couldn't have been written by well-connected hacks.

    Just because "well-connected hacks" may know something doesn't mean it's not regarded as intelligence by a foreign government. Intelligence-gathering is one of a diplomat's official roles.
    In the almost 100 years since Pearse died -no one has managed to speak to or get the opinions of his family . That information gets lost in time.

    Strange. I was intrigued when I came into contact with someone I thought to be connected with James Pearse's first family, as she claimed to be descended from the Pearses. As it turned out, she was just an attention-seeker and pretending to be Patrick Pearse's grand-daughter. (There was a long thread about her at the now-defunct dublinforums.com.) I was threatened by her boyfriend on a board ten years ago. He claimed to have been in the IRA in the north, someone told me later that he had been in the Parachute Regiment.

    Sorry, that went way off-topic.


  • #184
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    premierlass wrote: »
    Just because "well-connected hacks" may know something doesn't mean it's not regarded as intelligence by a foreign government. Intelligence-gathering is one of a diplomat's official roles.

    I woz having a go at Ruth Dudley Edwards on her Patrick Pearse articles and bio :pac:


    Strange. I was intrigued when I came into contact with someone .........as she claimed to be descended from the Pearses. As it turned out, she was just an attention-seeker and pretending to be Patrick Pearse's grand-daughter. he had been in the Parachute Regiment.

    Sorry, that went way off-topic.

    Funnily enough when looking up stuff for the thread I came accross the same thing in various forums. Either she was very busy or there were a few of them.

    My interest in the Pearse family is that that I was an altar boy on one of the altars they made.It is very fine. So I had looked up the Pearse churches and sculptures/monumental works by James & Willie Pearse (who was very talented) as places I might like to visit.

    It was coincidence that the thread came up.

    The history info on Pearse and his family didn't match what I knew of the families monumental & ecclesiastical work.

    Your woman could have probably gotten away with claiming to have been a grand niece or great grand niece if she gotten the history right.


  • #185
    premierlass
    Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭premierlass


    CDfm wrote: »
    I woz having a go at Ruth Dudley Edwards on her Patrick Pearse articles and bio :pac:

    I know, just thought I'd have a general dig at her.
    CDfm wrote: »
    Funnily enough when looking up stuff for the thread I came accross the same thing in various forums. Either she was very busy or there were a few of them.

    She's the only one I know of. Her name is Rose Tempany, but she likes to go by "Rose Pearse". She's now annoying the Doctor Who fandom.
    CDfm wrote: »
    My interest in the Pearse family is that that I was an altar boy on one of the altars they made.It is very fine. So I had looked up the Pearse churches and sculptures/monumental works by James & Willie Pearse (who was very talented) as places I might like to visit.

    They did good work. This is a monument from their workshop in Glasnevin Cemetery.

    IMG_5243.jpg

    [IMG]http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo39/GlendaLough/Glasnevin/IMG_5240.jpg width=50%[/IMG]


  • #186
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    premierlass wrote: »
    I was attacking RDE not you, sorry I wasn't clearer about that.

    yer fine RDE probably needs her own thread :pac:

    She's the only one I know of. Her name is Rose Tempany, but she likes to go by "Rose Pearse". She's now annoying the Doctor Who fandom.

    LOL :D

    They did good work. This is a monument from their workshop in Glasnevin Cemetery.


    IMG_5240.jpg%20width=50%

    It would be interesting to know if any of them are still in the business in the UK or Ireland.

    We dont see enough made of their work.


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  • #187
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    vinpaul wrote: »
    Hi CDfm
    Being browsing Pearse Story. You have uncovered a great deal of material, some of which I am familiar with but there are other bits and pieces that I must spend some time studying. Well done in your efforts
    Most interesting. .

    We know that Mary Emily was a nurse and that a lot of nurses were involved in 1916 but we know nothing of her.

    Take for example,Nurse Elisabeth O'Farrell held Patrick Pearse in high regard was their any connection via Mary Emily?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70356693&postcount=8


  • #188
    vinpaul
    Registered Users Posts: 363 ✭✭vinpaul


    Emily Pearse was born 31 Dec 1864. She was baptised on Jan 24th 1865 in the Church of St Peter in the parish of Peter in Dublin. Her parents were Emily Suzanne Fox and James Pearse. James Pearse's wife died in 1876 and he later married Margaret Brady in 1877, who was to become mother to Margaret, Padraig. Willie and Mary Brigid Pearse.
    Emily married Alfred Ignatius Mc Gloughlin in 1884 and had 3 children. When her parents' marriage collapsed in or around 1900 the children were sent to different homes. Her 2 daughters Emily (15) and Margaret (13) were recorded at St Joseph's Orphanage in Mountjoy Street (See 1901 Census). She herself was in Rosnakill in Co Donegal (see 1901 Census).She worked as a mid wife.
    In 1911 Emily was recorded in Carrowkeel, Co Donegal. This time she was joined by her daughter Maggie now aged 25 and husband James Mc Garvey. (see 1911 Census)
    She stayed there till 1930 before returning to Dublin and living at Rathfarnham, in the Hermitage with her daughter Maggie and husband James Mc Garvey. It is considered likely that James Mc Garvey was a gardener at St Enda's for many years.She died in 1944.
    As to any reference to her having any involvement with the Easter Rising, I can find no evidence as she seemed to have been in Donegal thoughout all those years from 1900 to 1930.

    Heading to this thread is incorrect. Emily Pearse married Alfred Ignatius Mc Gloughlin. Heading should read Emily Mc Gloughlin (nee Pearse)


  • #189
    Milk & Honey
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey


    CDfm wrote: »

    We also know that he had qualified as a Barrister - but we do not know if he was attached to any Chambers - young barristers often are subsidised by their families. Is it reasonable that he could have pursued a career at Law at that time.

    .


    He was not attached to any chambers. There were then and are not still any chambers in Dublin. Pearse did not practise to any great extent. I believe that he only appeared in 1 case. Many people then and for decades afterwards were able to obtain a call to the bar simultaneously with studying for their university degree. many never practised at all and some only in a limited way.
    I would think that the photograph in robes is earlier than 1914. A barrister is not supposed to allow his photograph to be taken in robes. The only exception is the day of his call to the bar and again on call to the inner bar. I would think that photo was taken at his call.


  • #190
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    From memory he appeared in connection with an an Claidheamh Soluis of which he was editor. That would put it around 1901.

    As a boxing fan -do we know if he went to fights or boxing clubs.


  • #191
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    CDfm wrote: »
    I woz having a go at Ruth Dudley Edwards on her Patrick Pearse articles and bio :pac:


    ............

    Have you read the Bio?


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  • #192
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Nodin wrote: »
    Have you read the Bio?

    I was going to buy it and had read bits at the library over time & checked it out at Easons and read around a 100/120 pages and browsed a bit thru the rest one afternoon.

    Specifically, I was looking for a bit more info on Willie & James Pearses work -so I was looking for a good quality bio in terms of the basics to lead me on to other items.

    Maybe some people like her style but it is not for me and I am a bit of a historic crime fan too and thats what she does.

    http://www.ruthdudleyedwards.co.uk/nonfiction/pearse-guardian.html

    Except PP wasn't a criminal and I didnt like the style and subsequent articles of hers in newspapers have just annoyed me because the sources do not support her conclusions.

    Now I havent found a Pearse bio that I have liked and I suspect the reason is that the flaws of the original Pearse bio's have been carried thru.

    Its a pity really , because I wanted to like what I was reading and expected to want to buy the book.

    I am reminded a bit of Angela McCourts reactions to her sons' books as lies.
    Even Angela McCourt had challenged her son's recollections before her death in 1981. Frank and his brother Malachy had persuaded her to attend A Couple of Blackguards, their stand-up memoirs, in a Manhattan theatre. Angela interrupted the tearful renditions of their childhood, standing up and shouting at the stage: "It didn't happen that way. It's all a pack of lies."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/culture-obituaries/books-obituaries/5867097/Frank-McCourt.html

    Or this recollection by her friend

    I knew Angela; did Frank McCourt? - Angela McCourt, mother of author Frank McCourt

    by Margaret O'Brien Steinfels


    Who then is the real Angela McCourt? The passive mother of Angela's Ashes or Mrs. McCourt, the formidable lifesaver who tussled with a lively two-year old while I took refuge at the New York Public Library? Have I created a fictive grandmother?
    Or has McCourt created a fictive mother?

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1252/is_n19_v124/ai_20227028/

    So if something is touted as scholarly I expect scholarly. For me, I wanted a good bio and know the difference between what is and is not because I have a good knowledge of the subject albeit a bit rusty.

    My comments and how I look at it are how I assess things and really it is up to RDE fans to argue her merits.

    She is a good and entertaining writer but that does not make her book a history book.


  • #193
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    CDfm wrote: »
    I was going to buy it and had read bits at the library over time & checked it out at Easons and read around a 100/120 pages and browsed a bit thru the rest one afternoon.

    Specifically, I was looking for a bit more info on Willie & James Pearses work -so I was looking for a good quality bio in terms of the basics to lead me on to other items.

    Maybe some people like her style but it is not for me and I am a bit of a historic crime fan too and thats what she does.

    http://www.ruthdudleyedwards.co.uk/nonfiction/pearse-guardian.html

    Except PP wasn't a criminal and I didnt like the style and subsequent articles of hers in newspapers have just annoyed me because the sources do not support her conclusions.

    Now I havent found a Pearse bio that I have liked and I suspect the reason is that the flaws of the original Pearse bio's have been carried thru.

    Its a pity really , because I wanted to like what I was reading and expected to want to buy the book.

    I am reminded a bit of Angela McCourts reactions to her sons' books as lies.


    Or this recollection by her friend


    So if something is touted as scholarly I expect scholarly. For me, I wanted a good bio and know the difference between what is and is not because I have a good knowledge of the subject albeit a bit rusty.

    My comments and how I look at it are how I assess things and really it is up to RDE fans to argue her merits.

    She is a good and entertaining writer but that does not make her book a history book.

    I read it some 20 or more years ago, and I have to say I don't remember it as being as hostile or undermining as either her current attitude or even that review would suggest.


  • #194
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Nodin wrote: »
    I read it some 20 or more years ago, and I have to say I don't remember it as being as hostile or undermining as either her current attitude or even that review would suggest.

    Many people have no problem with it as a book just not a history book.

    I am not saying she is a Kitty Kelley ( as in kitty versus the Reagans and Oprah http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20114996,00.html )

    What I am saying is if you want to know about Pearse and have an interest in him look elsewhere based on factual accuracies.

    I also think if a person criticises a book they should give reasons more than "I didnt like the book" as that may also mean you didnt like your hero portrayed accurately. That is not the case here and I hope I have shown why.


  • #195
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Today in 1916 , Pearse was executed.

    Earlier in the year some memorabilia showed up in a Dublin Auction House concerning his estate after his death.


    The Irish Times - Monday, March 26, 2012
    Papers reveal bank role in Pearse life policy

    1224313893999_1.jpg?ts=1336058483

    Sun Life Assurance's life policy on Pádraig Pearse, who signed promissory notes and died leaving an unpaid bank debt



    MICHAEL PARSONS

    DUBLIN BANKERS cashed in Pádraig Pearse’s life insurance policy just weeks after he was executed in 1916 and used the money to redeem a series of promissory notes.

    Previously unseen documents have come to light at Whyte’s auctioneers which show that the central figure in the Easter Rising – who read the Proclamation of the Republic at the GPO – died owing a large debt to Hibernian Bank.

    Pearse had borrowed the money, the equivalent of about €100,000 today, to set up St Enda’s school and handed over his life insurance policy and the deeds of the family home as security.

    He solemnly promised to repay the bank by signing promissory notes. Following the crushing of the rebellion, Pearse, aged 36, was court-martialled by the British authorities and executed by firing squad on May 3rd, 1916.

    Although Ireland was in turmoil, the bank did not lose sight of its priorities and was preoccupied by his unpaid promissory notes and overdraft. Within days, Hibernian Bank wrote to the Sun Life Assurance Society in London demanding a payout on Pearse’s life policy.

    But Sun Life executives in the City of London’s Threadneedle Street had been monitoring the unrest in Dublin and spotted that “the Life Assured was identical with the PH Pearse recently shot after trial by Court Martial”.

    The British insurance company initially refused to pay on the grounds that if an assured person is “killed in a duel, or feloniously destroys himself, or dies by the hand of the common hangman, or public executioner, the Policy is void”.

    However, Hibernian Bank did not let the matter rest and sought advice from its solicitors. The bank warned of legal proceedings and threatened to halt the sale of Sun Life products through its network of branches in Ireland.

    Following a frantic and tetchy exchange of letters, Sun Life “desirous of dealing with the case in a liberal spirit” eventually caved in and paid the bank £329.16s.4d under an agreement “not to allow any proceeds to benefit the Estate of the Life Assured”.

    The policy had been taken out by Pearse, who was unmarried, to benefit his mother Margaret (a widow) and his sisters Margaret Mary and Mary Brighid. But the deal cooked up between the bankers, insurance executives and lawyers ensured they did not receive a penny.

    The file of correspondence, found in the estate papers of a solicitor, and expected to sell for at least €2,000, will go under the hammer at Whyte’s auction of historical memorabilia in Dublin on April 21st.

    Auctioneer Ian Whyte said: “This was a squalid dispute between two financial institutions over the estate of the dead patriot, who, before his death, was a valued customer of both.”

    The records show that the payout only cleared half of Pearse’s debt to the bank. Hibernian Bank was taken over by Bank of Ireland in 1958.

    Two years later the Pearse family home, Cullenswood House in Ranelagh, was sold, and some of the proceeds were used to pay off the balance of the outstanding promissory notes owed by Pádraig Pearse – 44 years after he “died for Ireland”.

    The Sun Life Assurance Society was absorbed into an insurance conglomerate today known as Axa insurance.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0326/1224313893999.html

    A racier version is available here


    http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Bank-and-insurance-company-fought-over-Padraig-Pearse-after-his-execution-144196135.html


  • #196
    dave2pvd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭dave2pvd


    Classic editorial comment there.

    While I know it's almost mandatory to hate on financial institutions, I don't think the insurer or the bank acted unusually.
    Although Ireland was in turmoil, the bank did not lose sight of its priorities and was preoccupied by his unpaid promissory notes and overdraft.

    Turmoil or no turmoil, the bank were above-board in their dealings. There seems to be an inference that their priorities were somehow misaligned? Due to 'preoccupation' with the debt? Bizarre.
    The policy had been taken out by Pearse, who was unmarried, to benefit his mother Margaret (a widow) and his sisters Margaret Mary and Mary Brighid. But the deal cooked up between the bankers, insurance executives and lawyers ensured they did not receive a penny.

    "cooked up"? Really?

    To me the only surprise is that the insurer paid out. That public executioner clause would seem to make voiding the policy a real option. Perhaps he should have purchased a different policy?

    Regardless of IT jingoism, today is a day that commemorates an Irish hero.


  • #197
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    dave2pvd wrote: »
    Classic editorial comment there.

    While I know it's almost mandatory to hate on financial institutions, I don't think the insurer or the bank acted unusually.

    It is PP's anniversary and I thought it was going unnoticed.

    I have no doubt they were acting legally & had little discretion so the commentary ain't great but the material referenced is new so a bit of a bonus for completist's.


  • #198
    dave2pvd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭dave2pvd


    CDfm wrote: »
    It is PP's anniversary and I thought it was going unnoticed.

    I have no doubt they were acting legally & had little discretion so the commentary ain't great but the material referenced is new so a bit of a bonus for completist's.

    Thanks for posting it. Very interesting, and new-to-me info.

    I guess I was unable to get past the article's tone.


  • #199
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    dave2pvd wrote: »
    Thanks for posting it. Very interesting, and new-to-me info.

    I guess I was unable to get past the article's tone.

    No prob's.

    His two sisters disagreed on things and there was litigation and AFAIR there was some litigation over the publishing of Mary Briget's biography..

    Both his mother (d 1932) and his sister Margaret served in the Oireachtas, Margaret until her death in 1968.

    St Enda's kept going til 1935 and Margaret lived there until her death.They had sought funds from DeValera to help fund the school.

    I just wonder if this was just a normal family situation as the two sisters disagreed and litigated. The younger on Mary Bridget passed away in the late 40's . The most reasonable explanation is that Margaret the surviving sister tidied up everyone's affairs. Here is something from the National Library showing she was fairly good at paperwork
    Three letters from Margaret Pearse, sister of Patrick Pearse, and former TD and Senator, to Mr. [R.W.] Lyon of Talbot Press, first from St. Enda's, Rathfarnham, third from Linden Convalescent Home, both acknowledging cheques for royalties, the second on headed paper of Blue White Productions [amateur drama charity group], asking Lyons to deal with a request (possibly a copyright matter),

    1943-1964.




    http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000275236

    So at the time of Margaret's death everything was probably in order.


  • #200
    Fembot
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭Fembot


    Hi VinPaul, This is an unrelated message really but this thread came up when I was googling J & C McGloughlin Ltd. Im doing some family research and apparently my grandfather worked for the company, I guess in the 20s or 30s. I don't suppose employment records were kept for that far back?


  • #201
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Fembot wrote: »
    Hi VinPaul, This is an unrelated message really but this thread came up when I was googling J & C McGloughlin Ltd. Im doing some family research and apparently my grandfather worked for the company, I guess in the 20s or 30s. I don't suppose employment records were kept for that far back?

    Have you looked here

    http://www.dia.ie/architects/view/3873

    According to the link below their "1894-1989: operational and accounting records "are in the National Archives

    http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/nra/searches/subjectView.asp?ID=B16158

    You might get help from the geneology forum

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1288


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