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The "First" Irish people

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  • #102
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Very good, never thought of that.
    Now doesn't most mythology tie in with the Tuatha de Danann "invasion"? Is it known what Irish mythology is menat to represent, if anything and is there any link to mainland Europe?

    Im not sure what this means, i know it wasnt direceted with me but ill have a go anyway.

    Most mythology doesnt tie in with the Tuath de invasion. They're just talked about in 'leabhar gabhala eireann', most other books would make no mention of them.

    In leabhar gabhala eireann most invaders came from mainland europe, so there is a mythological connection, tuath de were from greece, milesians were iberian, and one other was scythian. They were heavily christianised so foreign influence was there also eg cesair being Noahs grand daughter, the parallels between the battle between Balor and Lugh and David and Goliath.

    Personally I dont think it is meant to represent anything. The style of writing histories, especially by monks was 'make up a load of bull' with very few exceptions, you only have to look at the biographies of saints to see that.


  • #103
    vedwards
    Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭vedwards


    ikeano29 wrote: »
    A great audio history of ireland was done by the bbc in 2009 i think.

    its called "a short history of ireland" but it isnt really too short, its actually quite long. you can download it from thepiratebay. its also legal to download.

    i was going to put all episodes up on youtube but it would have taen to long so i just put the first 2.

    here's a flavour.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuoK1T3TdKE

    Posted yesterday; it's back on air bbc7 and listen back
    Re: the piratebay:ACCESS TO THIS IP ADDRESS RELATING TO THE PIRATE BAY WEBSITE HAS BEEN BLOCKED


  • #104
    Enkidu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Very good, never thought of that.
    Now doesn't most mythology tie in with the Tuatha de Danann "invasion"? Is it known what Irish mythology is menat to represent, if anything and is there any link to mainland Europe?
    A huge amount of Irish mythology is suspected to be an Irish reflection of Indo-European myths.

    For example the second battle of Battle of Mag Tuired (Irish), the Titanomachy (Greek), Ragnarok (Norse), the Battle of Mahābhārata (Indic), the Plain of Ervandavan (Armenian), e.t.c. are all thought to be reflections of some original Indo-European myth about an enormous battle.

    All involve an incredible enemy from a different lineage to the heroes appears, e.g. Loki (Norse), Bres (Irish). He exploits the heroes and is driven out, then returns to his own people. A new leader then springs up from the heroes, e.g. Lug (Irish), Zeus (Greek). Of course not all details of the original Indo-European myth are preserved in all versions. For example, it is thought that the original myth may have involved a great winter before the battle, but this only appears in the Germanic and Iranian versions of the myth today.

    There are several more examples, but the explanation of a lot of myths is that they are local developments of Indo-European canonical stories.


  • #105
    tomasocarthaigh
    Registered Users Posts: 221 ✭✭tomasocarthaigh


    Irish as we know it, or Old Irish as it was then, was the language of the educated classes, probably the druids and such. The lack of rapid evolvment of the language in the period up to the advent of middle Irish suggests it was a classical language, spoken by an elite.

    The common tongue may have been more akin to the "Iron" language, nicknamed so as it was so difficult for the writers circa 900AD to understand even though there was some speakers.

    Nothing of it is written, just references to its existence.

    I cannot see how a new language would arrive without immigration even if only of a ruling class, unless the new language was an evolvement of the old one, or a population explosion of speakers of one dialect making it the dominant one.

    The Lowlands Listserve (www.lowlands-l.net) would be able to throw some light on this, even though they focus mainly on Germanic languages, there are many on it with expertise on Celtic languages also.

    Another area of debate is the arrival of the Ulaid and the Eoghnachta, with some sources suggesting they came after the main tribes of the so-called Milesian invasion.

    There are supporting legends in Galicia in Spain of a leader who sailed north and founded a new country. There is a tower there and all on a site of an older structure said to be built by him.

    Sure the monks mangled history when writing it down, making history legend and legend history, but its all we got. It will show how smart we are today to untangle the web and find out fact from fiction.


  • #106
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    tomasocarthaigh wrote: »
    Irish as we know it, or Old Irish as it was then, was the language of the educated classes, probably the druids and such. The lack of rapid evolvment of the language in the period up to the advent of middle Irish suggests it was a classical language, spoken by an elite.

    The common tongue may have been more akin to the "Iron" language, nicknamed so as it was so difficult for the writers circa 900AD to understand even though there was some speakers.

    Nothing of it is written, just references to its existence.

    I cannot see how a new language would arrive without immigration even if only of a ruling class, unless the new language was an evolvement of the old one, or a population explosion of speakers of one dialect making it the dominant one.

    The Lowlands Listserve (www.lowlands-l.net) would be able to throw some light on this, even though they focus mainly on Germanic languages, there are many on it with expertise on Celtic languages also.

    Another area of debate is the arrival of the Ulaid and the Eoghnachta, with some sources suggesting they came after the main tribes of the so-called Milesian invasion.

    There are supporting legends in Galicia in Spain of a leader who sailed north and founded a new country. There is a tower there and all on a site of an older structure said to be built by him.

    Sure the monks mangled history when writing it down, making history legend and legend history, but its all we got. It will show how smart we are today to untangle the web and find out fact from fiction.

    Having a story on both areas involved in the movement of people does lend more credibility. Anyway asn't the Iberian coast basically a gateway to all of Europe from the iron age onwards, as you had mainland Europe opening up with rivers being used and more movement fro the mediterranean? I also think there were a few mines in Cork and kerry which were supposed to be important around this time, particularly Mount Gabriel in Cork.


  • #107
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Enkidu wrote: »
    A huge amount of Irish mythology is suspected to be an Irish reflection of Indo-European myths.

    For example the second battle of Battle of Mag Tuired (Irish), the Titanomachy (Greek), Ragnarok (Norse), the Battle of Mahābhārata (Indic), the Plain of Ervandavan (Armenian), e.t.c. are all thought to be reflections of some original Indo-European myth about an enormous battle.

    All involve an incredible enemy from a different lineage to the heroes appears, e.g. Loki (Norse), Bres (Irish). He exploits the heroes and is driven out, then returns to his own people. A new leader then springs up from the heroes, e.g. Lug (Irish), Zeus (Greek). Of course not all details of the original Indo-European myth are preserved in all versions. For example, it is thought that the original myth may have involved a great winter before the battle, but this only appears in the Germanic and Iranian versions of the myth today.

    There are several more examples, but the explanation of a lot of myths is that they are local developments of Indo-European canonical stories.

    Are there any Irish flood myths?


  • #108
    GhostInTheRuins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,965 ✭✭✭GhostInTheRuins


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Are there any Irish flood myths?

    Just the biblical flood myth tacked on to irish myths later by the monks.


  • #109
    Enkidu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Are there any Irish flood myths?
    As GhostInTheRuins says, in non-christianised Irish mythology, no. Indo-European didn't have a flood in its mythology, so European countries don't really have them except as something borrowed from Semitic regions, either through contact with Christianity or direct geographic contact with Semitic countries.


  • #110
    Enkidu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    tomasocarthaigh wrote: »
    Irish as we know it, or Old Irish as it was then, was the language of the educated classes, probably the druids and such. The lack of rapid evolvment of the language in the period up to the advent of middle Irish suggests it was a classical language, spoken by an elite.

    The common tongue may have been more akin to the "Iron" language, nicknamed so as it was so difficult for the writers circa 900AD to understand even though there was some speakers.
    This is a quite interesting and much studied topic. Primitive Irish, Classical Old Irish and Early Modern Irish were all literary standards very disconnected with the average spoken language of the people.

    Primitive Irish was a standard of the literary elite in pre-Christian times, we know this from how little it changed over the three hundred years that we have evidence of it. It probably represents Irish as it was spoken around 1st century B.C./A.D. however it was used until the 6th century. The shift to Old Irish in the 6th century probably occurred via a conscious decision by the new Christian literary class as part of their attitude to update everything from old pagan traditions. Old Irish was then based on colloquial speech.

    Over time of course this colloquial speech became archaic itself and by the early 13th century it was impossible to maintain it as a standard of the written language since it was so old. Hence the new standard Early Modern Irish or the Bardic standard was born.

    I should say that the spoken language basically evolved from Old Irish to Early Modern Irish. Middle Irish was not a spoken language, but represents a period where texts are inconsistent because people are by now speaking the language in a manner similar to Early Modern Irish, but are attempting to write Old Irish and accidentally put their spoken modern grammar into the writing.

    Again, the standard became too remote from everyday speech and was criticised for being incomprehensible. Fionn Ó Dálaigh for instance wrote a satire of the Bards and their archaic language. Even Oxford scholar Edmund Campion remarked (in 1571) that the average Irish person could not understand 'true (Bardic) Irish'.

    Eventually there probably would have been another revision but the poet classes collapsed and the language began to dwindle. During the Gaelic revival their were people saying that the Bardic standard should be reintroduced, however Peadar Ua Laoghaire argued that it was too remote and people should just use the dialect of their area. Of course over the next fifty years this lead to massive confusion due to dialectal differences and hence another standard was introduced, "An Caighdeán Oifigúil", in the 1950s. Which is basically what we learn in school.


  • #111
    Enkidu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    Wibbs wrote: »
    :D They'd write Amen at the end of stuff too. Greek/Roman/Irish. All got an amen. myths I seem to recall at the end of one early version of the Tain, the scribe wrote something like "right so finished. Interesting story but full of incredulous guff and pagan nonsense, but we recorded it anyway. Amen" Thankfully they did write the stuff down though. We lost many myths in the rest of Europe because their monks didnt.
    I meant to respond to this earlier. Yes, indeed we are quite fortunate. It is suspected that this is because a lot of our early monks had been trained in the pagan tradition before converting and so saw a lot of Irish myths as secular writings worth preserving. Some countries were very unfortunate, e.g. Lithuanian.


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  • #112
    GhostInTheRuins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,965 ✭✭✭GhostInTheRuins


    Wibbs wrote: »
    :D They'd write Amen at the end of stuff too. Greek/Roman/Irish. All got an amen. myths I seem to recall at the end of one early version of the Tain, the scribe wrote something like "right so finished. Interesting story but full of incredulous guff and pagan nonsense, but we recorded it anyway. Amen" Thankfully they did write the stuff down though. We lost many myths in the rest of Europe because their monks didnt.

    What's interesting is that at the end of the book of Leinster version, first written in Irish is "A blessing on everyone who will memorise the Táin faithfully in this form, and not put any other form on it" and then right below that written in Latin is that it's a fantasy full of devilish lies fit for the "enjoyment of idiots" :D


  • #113
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    GhostInTheRuins wrote: »
    What's interesting is that at the end of the book of Leinster version, first written in Irish is "A blessing on everyone who will memorise the Táin faithfully in this form, and not put any other form on it" and then right below that written in Latin is that it's a fantasy full of devilish lies fit for the "enjoyment of idiots" :D

    Really?

    I've been looking for a translation of the book of leinster for ages (especially the book of invasions) did you find one or was it referenced in another translation of the Tain


  • #114
    GhostInTheRuins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,965 ✭✭✭GhostInTheRuins


    No, I don't have a translation of the book of Leinster, I got that from Thomas Kinsella's translation of the Táin. He mentions the notes that the scribes left at the end and that they're from the book of Leinster.


  • #115
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Enkidu wrote: »
    I meant to respond to this earlier. Yes, indeed we are quite fortunate. It is suspected that this is because a lot of our early monks had been trained in the pagan tradition before converting and so saw a lot of Irish myths as secular writings worth preserving. Some countries were very unfortunate, e.g. Lithuanian.
    The oral tradition and the novelty of the new to them writing probably helped. It seems the deep need and respect for storytelling couldnt be swept away so easily by the new faith and maybe it wasn't seen as old fashioned as it might of been in other places? Especially those who had contact with and harboured a gra to be civilised Romans.

    Take Colmcille, he came back to Ireland to help decide on the fate of the bards in this new world and he came down very strongly in favour of them. As he said himself "For know you that God himself bought the psalms of praise from King David and on that account it is right for you to buy the poems of the poets and keep the poets in Ireland. And as all the world is but a fable, it were for you to buy the more enduring fable rather than the one that is less enduring". I can't quite imagine a mainland European and more Roman cleric coming out with anything like that, especially about "pagan" storytellers mostly speaking of pagan subjects.

    The church had most often tried to remove that link with the past and substitute their own story. Interesting he describes the world as but a fable. Common enough in theological thinking at the time, but more along the lines of Vale of tears/Christianity is the only one able to tell and deduce this fable. The Irish notion of many fables of the world around them that can inform didnt die with him. You can see a similar but massively more complex reading of that notion in the later John Scottus' works. He was damn near a pantheist in leanings. A fact that didnt escape headquarters in Rome and his books were ordered to be burnt and removed from record.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • #116
    Enkidu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    sensibleken wrote: »
    Really?

    I've been looking for a translation of the book of leinster for ages (especially the book of invasions) did you find one or was it referenced in another translation of the Tain

    In the original:

    Irish:
    Bendacht ar cech óen mebraigfes go hindraic Táin amlaid seo 7 ná tuillfe cruth aile furri

    A blessing on every one who shall faithfully memorise the Táin as it is written here and shall not add any other form to it.

    Latin:
    Sed ego qui scripsi hanc historiam aut uerius fabulam quibusdam fidem in hac historia aut fabula non accommodo. Quaedam enim ibi sunt praestrigia demonum, quaedum autem figmenta poetica, quaedam similia uero, quaedam non, quaedam ad delectationem stultorum.

    But I who have written this story, or rather this fable, give no credence to the various incidents related in it. For some things in it are the deceptions of demons, others poetic figments; some are probable, others improbable; while still others are intended for the delectation of foolish men.

    The 7 symbol in the Irish is an old way of writing "ocus", meaning "and", similar to the & symbol in English.
    "ocus" became "agus" in Modern Irish.


  • #117
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    It's interesting the guy uses the words "faithfully memorise" and not "reproduce in print" in that entreaty. As if he's aware that writing and books at the time were a relatively rare thing and that it may need to survive in the oral tradition too. That the old tradition still holds relevance even in the face of the new. Though the act of rendering it in ink on page sets the template to remember both are needed. An interesting take for what was lately an entirely oral tradition(IIRC some of the ancient Greek thinkers thinking similar).

    Seems there's a bit of a hidden thing going on too? The Irish part is easy going, but the Latin part presumably meant only for educated eyes is a bit more... well, dismissive? Though I'm damn thankful for the mindset that spent countless hours just to record it as they felt the act of recording itself important to do so, even if privately he/they thought it was all bollocks. IIRC they did similar for many of the tales of the classical world too. I wonder did they ever do anything similar in the lands these wandering scribes went preaching God to. It's a pity they didn't or that if they did it's lost to us or we would have a greater understanding of other early European myths and legends.

    Or am I reading too much into that?

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • #118
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    IIRC the Irish guys even started to screw around with Latin and invented their own more flowery version among themselves. Amazing considering how late they came to writing and presumably other languages. Though Maybe Ireland was a patchwork of languages/dialects so they had that innate facility?

    fontanalis wrote:
    Are there any Irish flood myths?
    I doubt it. It would be like bringing coals to newcastle. "Hey Mick, did you hear about this Noah character? Who saved his family from a great flood?". "Nah but so what? The wife saved herself, the kids and the cattle last Tuesday after a grand soft day lost the run of itself". :D

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • #119
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Enkidu wrote: »
    In the original:

    Irish:
    Bendacht ar cech óen mebraigfes go hindraic Táin amlaid seo 7 ná tuillfe cruth aile furri

    A blessing on every one who shall faithfully memorise the Táin as it is written here and shall not add any other form to it.

    Latin:
    Sed ego qui scripsi hanc historiam aut uerius fabulam quibusdam fidem in hac historia aut fabula non accommodo. Quaedam enim ibi sunt praestrigia demonum, quaedum autem figmenta poetica, quaedam similia uero, quaedam non, quaedam ad delectationem stultorum.

    But I who have written this story, or rather this fable, give no credence to the various incidents related in it. For some things in it are the deceptions of demons, others poetic figments; some are probable, others improbable; while still others are intended for the delectation of foolish men.

    The 7 symbol in the Irish is an old way of writing "ocus", meaning "and", similar to the & symbol in English.
    "ocus" became "agus" in Modern Irish.

    ggod work. that latin one is just a way of saying 'any reference to any charcters living or dead...' :)


  • #120
    Enkidu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    Wibbs wrote: »
    It's interesting the guy uses the words "faithfully memorise" and not "reproduce in print" in that entreaty. As if he's aware that writing and books at the time were a relatively rare thing and that it may need to survive in the oral tradition too. That the old tradition still holds relevance even in the face of the new. Though the act of rendering it in ink on page sets the template to remember both are needed. An interesting take for what was lately an entirely oral tradition(IIRC some of the ancient Greek thinkers thinking similar).
    Yes, making a canonical version. Indeed the Ancient Greeks did something similar.
    Wibbs wrote: »
    Seems there's a bit of a hidden thing going on too? The Irish part is easy going, but the Latin part presumably meant only for educated eyes is a bit more... well, dismissive? Though I'm damn thankful for the mindset that spent countless hours just to record it as they felt the act of recording itself important to do so, even if privately he/they thought it was all bollocks. IIRC they did similar for many of the tales of the classical world too. I wonder did they ever do anything similar in the lands these wandering scribes went preaching God to. It's a pity they didn't or that if they did it's lost to us or we would have a greater understanding of other early European myths and legends.

    Or am I reading too much into that?
    It's hard to know what the monks thought. In some senses he could be just covering his arse with the Latin text. Some people have read the Irish and Latin texts respectively as roughly:
    Irish: Dear traditional Irish poets, the Táin is fantastic don't you agree?
    Latin: Dear superiors who could kill me, the Táin is a load of bollocks don't you agree?

    The monks were very contradictory. For example one monk, copying the New Testament says in a margin (probably to another monk who will also be copying from his copy):

    Cidbé le bud emeilt, do scribus mar do fuarus ind lebur so nó fós.
    I'm sorry if you find this boring, but I just copied the book the way I found it.

    Not something you would expect from a pious monk!

    A random note, just since we're discussing early Ireland:
    The Brehon law texts rank entertainers. The lowest entertainer called a "braigetóir" was more lowly than even "the lowest female entertainer". The Braigetóir was a professional farter.


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  • #121
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Enkidu wrote: »
    Yes, making a canonical version. Indeed the Ancient Greeks did something similar.
    IIRC Plato was one bloke not overly keen on the notion of canonical stuff, pertaining to philosophy anyway.

    It's hard to know what the monks thought. In some senses he could be just covering his arse with the Latin text. Some people have read the Irish and Latin texts respectively as roughly:
    Irish: Dear traditional Irish poets, the Táin is fantastic don't you agree?
    Latin: Dear superiors who could kill me, the Táin is a load of bollocks don't you agree?
    Sounds about right. :)
    The monks were very contradictory. For example one monk, copying the New Testament says in a margin (probably to another monk who will also be copying from his copy):

    Cidbé le bud emeilt, do scribus mar do fuarus ind lebur so nó fós.
    I'm sorry if you find this boring, but I just copied the book the way I found it.

    Not something you would expect from a pious monk!
    Brilliant. Shows promise that lad. Would this be similar to the above example that maybe his superiors or whom the book was destined for(export?) would not be able to read that? Though I suppose the endless copying must have driven even the most devout to tears of boredom. I seem to recall another marginal comment where a guy laments the fate of some character or other who dies in the text(Not christian AFAIR). They did seem to get into it.
    A random note, just since we're discussing early Ireland:
    The Brehon law texts rank entertainers. The lowest entertainer called a "braigetóir" was more lowly than even "the lowest female entertainer". The Braigetóir was a professional farter.
    With your expertise on these matters would there be any chance that in the transition from old Irish to new that transformed into "teachta dala"? :D

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • #122
    Enkidu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Brilliant. Shows promise that lad. Would this be similar to the above example that maybe his superiors or whom the book was destined for(export?) would not be able to read that? Though I suppose the endless copying must have driven even the most devout to tears of boredom. I seem to recall another marginal comment where a guy laments the fate of some character or other who dies in the text(Not christian AFAIR). They did seem to get into it.
    The monks actually used to communicate with each other through marginal comments, so at times there are entire pieces of dialogue given. I'll try to collect some of my notes, to give a sample of the more interesting stuff.
    Wibbs wrote: »
    With your expertise on these matters would there be any chance that in the transition from old Irish to new that transformed into "teachta dala"? :D
    Ha!:D


  • #123
    markesmith
    Registered Users Posts: 1,752 ✭✭✭markesmith


    Fascinating thread folks. Nothing constructive to add, just wanted to let you know! Been a while since I read every post in a 9+ page thread.


  • #124
    Enkidu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    markesmith wrote: »
    Fascinating thread folks. Nothing constructive to add, just wanted to let you know! Been a while since I read every post in a 9+ page thread.
    I'm certainly enjoying it! I'm being a bit lazy, but I should have some more good stuff up later this week as I promised Wibbs.


  • #125
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    How good of a source are the Romans for Irish history? The link below shows names of Irish tribes.
    I joined the site DNA Forums recently and I'm beyond confused. Going by most of the posts there I get the impression of small invasions from Europe setting up tribes and kingdoms.
    http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/celtictribes.shtml


  • #126
    Enkidu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    fontanalis wrote: »
    How good of a source are the Romans for Irish history? The link below shows names of Irish tribes.
    I joined the site DNA Forums recently and I'm beyond confused. Going by most of the posts there I get the impression of small invasions from Europe setting up tribes and kingdoms.
    http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/celtictribes.shtml
    The common received knowledge about Ireland is that the "Gaelic order" was set up by various invading tribes, particularly the Gaels who gave us our language.

    However the source for this knowledge is Lebor Gabála Érenn and other "histories" composed by the monks of early medieval Ireland. These texts take the flood narrative of the bible as true and attempt to portray traditional oral Irish storytelling as a continuation of biblical events. They are also written about 1,200 years after the events they are supposed to describe. So, as you can imagine, they are not reliable historical texts.

    In reality, we just see archealogical evidence of the move of Celtic culture across Europe, which eventually ends up in Ireland by means unknown. By the time we have the written record Ireland is composed of Goidelc speaking tuathas.

    It also occurs to me that a post I made earlier on the mythology forum is relevant here:
    The spread of Celtic and Indo-European myth (Thunder Gods).


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  • #127
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    There seems to be a tendency to confuse Celts with Gaels in a lot of stuff I've read concerning the invasions etc.

    It has been suggested by some historians that there was no Celtic Race or tribe,rather that Celticism was a general cultural movement consisting of different tribes who amassed in Scythia and ventured into the lower Balkans.

    Conventional history tells us that they formed from easterly migrating Gauls and Macedonians, but there are many problems with the claim.Not so much concerning the Macedonian factor, but the Gaulish tribal migration.The Scythian Celts seem to predate the Gauls by a long time.It would be more likely that the Gauls were descended from a wave of westerly migrating Scythian Celts as were the other western European Celtic peoples.

    It also seems a wave of migration went south from Scythia, which is evidenced by the documented sacking of Delphi by the Volcae(celtic confederation).The genetic and linguistic connections between Irish Gaels and North African Berbers, indicates that part of this wave went to North Africa.Our "Mythology" makes specific mention of Egypt and and 2 pharohs that have in the 20th century been proven to have existed.Some fluke for a myth!Some sceptics highlight the mention of another Pharoh's name that has as yet not been substantiated, and cite this as a discrediting factor.

    The Eoghaneachta and Ui Fidgenti are worth investigating.

    One thing that has interested me is some of the ancient Milesian names like Eber Finn which transformed in Ireland to Finn Eber, and kept changing to the Finbarr we have to day.

    This made me think about the story of the founding of the settlement that became Cork City.

    We are told that some monk called Finbarr lived by a lake in Gouganbarra, the source of the Lee river and that he rowed merrily down the river until he hit the delta where he founded a monastic settlement.
    This surely is a fabrication by the Catholic Church.Who was this Finbarr.His name is unprecedented in a Judeo-Christian context asfaik.He is only preedated in Milesian 'mythology'.

    I reckon he wasn't alone and I doubt very much he ever lived at Gouganbarra. I reckon he was the patriarch of an Eoghanachta clann who were moving their way east from Kerry where we are told the Gaelic invasion occurred.Cork was founded by them,and a Christian theme added later.

    Our Books of Invasions are fascinating and to simply trash them as nothing more than made up stories is pitiful.I am open to new theories and evidence on this always.I agree though that they have been twisted a bit by Victorian Celtic fetishists like James McPherson.

    There are a group of British Jews who believe that the Tuatha De Danann are in fact the Lost Tribe of Dan scattered from the flood.Their claim carried enough weight for the Irish Government allowed them in 1985 to carry out an Israeli funded archaeological dig at Newgrange, apparently to search for the Holy Grail.

    They make some wild and tantalizing claims, many of which are backed by Bible history if nothing else.They do have some credible sources for some of their claims but I get the feeling they might have got a bit creative in filling in the gaps.It's worth a look though, even if only to pick holes.

    Something of interest is the dialogue between Daniel O Connell and Benjamin Disraeli.The Brish PM had misinterpreted a remark by O Connell about Jews and retorted with

    "Yes, I am a Jew, and when the ancestors of the Right Honorable gentleman were brutal savages in an unknown island, mine were priests in the temple of Solomon"

    To which O Connell replied,

    "Ireland has claims on your ancient race, it is the only country that I know of unsullied by any one act of persecution of the Jews."

    I'd love to know more about Daniel O Connell's historical knowledge and beliefs.O' Connell and it's variants in Kerry go way back into ancient times

    http://celts.org.uk/


    Another wild theory that has knocked about since Victorian times at least is that the Gaels can claim partial descent from the refugees of Troy.It could be that many other peoples could make this claim too though.

    Such an idea was unentertainable until the proof of Troy's existence.But knowing that it existed and where it existed we can see that Scythia and the upper Balkans would have been places for Trojans to flee to.


  • #128
    oflynno
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 729 ✭✭✭oflynno


    Misanthrope wrote: »

    ,rather that Celticism was a general cultural movement consisting of different tribes who amassed in Scythia and ventured into the lower Balkans.

    Why would they travel all the way from there to here?would there not have been records of someone seeing this migration on route to ireland?i know that ireland was rich in copper but would that be enough to bring people so far?






    I reckon he wasn't alone and I doubt very much he ever lived at Gouganbarra. I reckon he was the patriarch of an Eoghanachta clann who were moving their way east from Kerry where we are told the Gaelic invasion occurred.Cork was founded by them,and a Christian theme added later.

    Are you seroius?St Finbarr was a Kerryman?fekkin hell,Saint Patrick was Welsh,Sean Og is Fijjian-what are we at?
    I will say that Paul Galvin looks more Spanish(Milesian)than Irish.

    The story seems to get more twists and turns by the new time
    It is a pity that RTE or the like dont have a series on Irish History,and try to prove or disprove the different theories or facts.I have been reading a few books on Irish History and Folklore/Legend too,there are so many branches to follow,its tough going.

    I love the interest people have taken in this thread,it makes for great reading and follow ups,i'll never be bored


  • #129
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    oflynno wrote: »
    Misanthrope wrote: »

    ,rather that Celticism was a general cultural movement consisting of different tribes who amassed in Scythia and ventured into the lower Balkans.
    Why would they travel all the way from there to here?would there not have been records of someone seeing this migration on route to ireland?i know that ireland was rich in copper but would that be enough to bring people so far
    ?

    There are records and archaeological finds as well as reports by the Romans and the Greeks before them.Copper and Tin were a big draw.In Crookhaven Co Cork, there are ancient mines.There is documented evidence of Barbary pirates from Africa trading with Ireland way back into antiquity.Ireland and Britain were known as the Tin Isles by the Greeks.Our part of the world was anything but unknown.









    The story seems to get more twists and turns by the new time
    It is a pity that RTE or the like dont have a series on Irish History,and try to prove or disprove the different theories or facts.I have been reading a few books on Irish History and Folklore/Legend too,there are so many branches to follow,its tough going.
    There have been one or two back in the day.The late Vincent Tucker of UCC made one back in the early 90's I think.But a new one is beckoning with all the new information being uncovered

    I love the interest people have taken in this thread,it makes for great reading and follow ups,i'll never be bored

    I grew up listening to the handed down stories but they are a bit like Chinese whisper.I started reading up on it on the net about 1 1/2 years back and it's fascinating.Genetics and Etymology throw up new clues all the time not to mention Archaeology.There are so many angles you can study this from.I've been trying to establish my own theory on it all but the subject becomes more vast every day it seems.


  • #130
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    oflynno wrote: »

    The story seems to get more twists and turns by the new time
    It is a pity that RTE or the like dont have a series on Irish History,and try to prove or disprove the different theories or facts.I have been reading a few books on Irish History and Folklore/Legend too,there are so many branches to follow,its tough going.

    RTE did a series back around 2002 or so called 'In Search of Ancient Ireland' - I have the DVD and book to the series which I think are still available on Amazon. It features Irish archeologists Barry Raftery, John Waddell and other scholars of early Irish history.


  • #131
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Misanthrope wrote: »
    There seems to be a tendency to confuse Celts with Gaels in a lot of stuff I've read concerning the invasions etc.

    It has been suggested by some historians that there was no Celtic Race or tribe,rather that Celticism was a general cultural movement consisting of different tribes who amassed in Scythia and ventured into the lower Balkans.

    Conventional history tells us that they formed from easterly migrating Gauls and Macedonians, but there are many problems with the claim.Not so much concerning the Macedonian factor, but the Gaulish tribal migration.The Scythian Celts seem to predate the Gauls by a long time.It would be more likely that the Gauls were descended from a wave of westerly migrating Scythian Celts as were the other western European Celtic peoples.

    It also seems a wave of migration went south from Scythia, which is evidenced by the documented sacking of Delphi by the Volcae(celtic confederation).The genetic and linguistic connections between Irish Gaels and North African Berbers, indicates that part of this wave went to North Africa.Our "Mythology" makes specific mention of Egypt and and 2 pharohs that have in the 20th century been proven to have existed.Some fluke for a myth!Some sceptics highlight the mention of another Pharoh's name that has as yet not been substantiated, and cite this as a discrediting factor.

    The Eoghaneachta and Ui Fidgenti are worth investigating.

    One thing that has interested me is some of the ancient Milesian names like Eber Finn which transformed in Ireland to Finn Eber, and kept changing to the Finbarr we have to day.

    This made me think about the story of the founding of the settlement that became Cork City.

    We are told that some monk called Finbarr lived by a lake in Gouganbarra, the source of the Lee river and that he rowed merrily down the river until he hit the delta where he founded a monastic settlement.
    This surely is a fabrication by the Catholic Church.Who was this Finbarr.His name is unprecedented in a Judeo-Christian context asfaik.He is only preedated in Milesian 'mythology'.

    I reckon he wasn't alone and I doubt very much he ever lived at Gouganbarra. I reckon he was the patriarch of an Eoghanachta clann who were moving their way east from Kerry where we are told the Gaelic invasion occurred.Cork was founded by them,and a Christian theme added later.

    Our Books of Invasions are fascinating and to simply trash them as nothing more than made up stories is pitiful.I am open to new theories and evidence on this always.I agree though that they have been twisted a bit by Victorian Celtic fetishists like James McPherson.

    There are a group of British Jews who believe that the Tuatha De Danann are in fact the Lost Tribe of Dan scattered from the flood.Their claim carried enough weight for the Irish Government allowed them in 1985 to carry out an Israeli funded archaeological dig at Newgrange, apparently to search for the Holy Grail.

    They make some wild and tantalizing claims, many of which are backed by Bible history if nothing else.They do have some credible sources for some of their claims but I get the feeling they might have got a bit creative in filling in the gaps.It's worth a look though, even if only to pick holes.

    Something of interest is the dialogue between Daniel O Connell and Benjamin Disraeli.The Brish PM had misinterpreted a remark by O Connell about Jews and retorted with

    "Yes, I am a Jew, and when the ancestors of the Right Honorable gentleman were brutal savages in an unknown island, mine were priests in the temple of Solomon"

    To which O Connell replied,

    "Ireland has claims on your ancient race, it is the only country that I know of unsullied by any one act of persecution of the Jews."

    I'd love to know more about Daniel O Connell's historical knowledge and beliefs.O' Connell and it's variants in Kerry go way back into ancient times

    http://celts.org.uk/


    Another wild theory that has knocked about since Victorian times at least is that the Gaels can claim partial descent from the refugees of Troy.It could be that many other peoples could make this claim too though.

    Such an idea was unentertainable until the proof of Troy's existence.But knowing that it existed and where it existed we can see that Scythia and the upper Balkans would have been places for Trojans to flee to.

    I think this may have more to do with status, meaning if you try to claim a link to a well respected civilisation/city/culture then you can give yourself legitmacy/a way to prove to others why you should be at the top of the pile.


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  • #132
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    Enkidu wrote: »
    The common received knowledge about Ireland is that the "Gaelic order" was set up by various invading tribes, particularly the Gaels who gave us our language.

    However the source for this knowledge is Lebor Gabála Érenn and other "histories" composed by the monks of early medieval Ireland. These texts take the flood narrative of the bible as true and attempt to portray traditional oral Irish storytelling as a continuation of biblical events. They are also written about 1,200 years after the events they are supposed to describe. So, as you can imagine, they are not reliable historical texts.

    In reality, we just see archealogical evidence of the move of Celtic culture across Europe, which eventually ends up in Ireland by means unknown. By the time we have the written record Ireland is composed of Goidelc speaking tuathas.

    It also occurs to me that a post I made earlier on the mythology forum is relevant here:
    The spread of Celtic and Indo-European myth (Thunder Gods).


    Speaking of myths,the Twins myth seems to be ubiquitous to ancient cultures.Children of Lir, Romulous and Remus, Castor and Pollux etc.

    This could be a thread that links a lot of seemingly different cultures to a common source.

    I can't wait to hear more.Great thread


  • #133
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    fontanalis wrote: »
    I think this may have more to do with status, meaning if you try to claim a link to a well respected civilisation/city/culture then you can give yourself legitmacy/a way to prove to others why you should be at the top of the pile.

    This would ring especially true of the Victorians actually.Yeats tying himself to Byzantium etc.

    While I suspect it may be the product of wishful thinking,I think it is worthy of scrutiny in light of the proof of Troy existence.It seems that this was a very advanced post diluvian culture perhaps more so than Athens or Sparta.And it was destroyed and it's inhabitants scattered.Also, it's proximity to Celtic ground zero is notable.

    I'm not crying 'Hey, we are the Trojans"(no matter how our govt behave), but I suspect Troys diaspora must have borne significant influence on the communities they joined or formed, as refugees


  • #134
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    Wibbs wrote: »
    As he said himself "For know you that God himself bought the psalms of praise from King David and on that account it is right for you to buy the poems of the poets and keep the poets in Ireland. And as all the world is but a fable, it were for you to buy the more enduring fable rather than the one that is less enduring".

    Wow I never heard that before.That has my head spinning.The immediate translation in my little atheistic brain is,

    'Look, "god"(winks) paid David to write a load of psalms and to publicly endorse him.
    On that basis we'd be as well of employing the bards to spread the word of ehhh "god"(another wink).
    These dudes are in the business of BS and the whole world is BS, so it'd be a match made in "haeaven"(winks,laughs, high fives all round) '


    Who was he addressing?And who was the Emperor at the time?Sorry, that's a lazy request by me.I just remembered the Google thing


  • #135
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Misanthrope wrote: »
    This would ring especially true of the Victorians actually.Yeats tying himself to Byzantium etc.
    The Victorians were nutters for that stuff. Actually Troy has suffered from later people claiming ancestry to it. Well Homer can write a decent tale so that helped.
    While I suspect it may be the product of wishful thinking,I think it is worthy of scrutiny in light of the proof of Troy existence.It seems that this was a very advanced post diluvian culture perhaps more so than Athens or Sparta.And it was destroyed and it's inhabitants scattered.Also, it's proximity to Celtic ground zero is notable.
    Post diluvian? As in after the (biblical)flood? As a advanced city, it had many more rivals for that title. Athens it was not. Nor Minoan Thera. In any case the problem with that connection with the Celts is one of timing. The site most likely to be historical Troy was destroyed in 1300 BC about 500 years before the first proto Celtic culture sprang up. It seems a bit of a stretch to me anyway. Plus many cities came and went, to narrow it down to one that happens to be famous largely down to Homer is possible but unlikely I would have thought.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • #136
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Misanthrope wrote: »
    Wow I never heard that before.That has my head spinning.The immediate translation in my little atheistic brain is,

    'Look, "god"(winks) paid David to write a load of psalms and to publicly endorse him.
    On that basis we'd be as well of employing the bards to spread the word of ehhh "god"(another wink).
    These dudes are in the business of BS and the whole world is BS, so it'd be a match made in "haeaven"(winks,laughs, high fives all round) '
    Maybe. I'd say it's more "God loves poets and so should Irish kings, that the world has many explanations, I consider mine(christianity) the best, but others exist(or the poets give great fables)" The fable thing has a different connotation to modern I'd reckon. More along the lines of the world and nature is but an illusion that can stand in the way of the spirit. The early church had a lot of that the world is an illusion thing going on. Kinda buddhistic in some ways.

    Plus he himself was one of the foremost poets of his day so he had an affinity with the bards even if they were "Pagans". It's quite a different attitude to the mainstream Roman church. Like I say a Roman high level cleric of the time would rather have cut out his own tongue than to come out with that sort of thing.

    Who was he addressing?And who was the Emperor at the time?Sorry, that's a lazy request by me.I just remembered the Google thing
    It was some Irish king whose name escapes I'm afraid.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • #137
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Misanthrope wrote: »
    This would ring especially true of the Victorians actually.Yeats tying himself to Byzantium etc.

    While I suspect it may be the product of wishful thinking,I think it is worthy of scrutiny in light of the proof of Troy existence.It seems that this was a very advanced post diluvian culture perhaps more so than Athens or Sparta.And it was destroyed and it's inhabitants scattered.Also, it's proximity to Celtic ground zero is notable.

    I'm not crying 'Hey, we are the Trojans"(no matter how our govt behave), but I suspect Troys diaspora must have borne significant influence on the communities they joined or formed, as refugees

    Well wasn't Troy always considered to be soem great city, even if it wasn't discovered to be true it really comes down to what people thought it to be when these tales were wrtitten.
    How close was Troy to the Anatolia region (as this is supposed to very important to the spread of Agriculture to Europe)?


  • #138
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    Wibbs wrote: »
    The Victorians were nutters for that stuff. Actually Troy has suffered from later people claiming ancestry to it. Well Homer can write a decent tale so that helped.

    Post diluvian? As in after the (biblical)flood? As a advanced city, it had many more rivals for that title. Athens it was not. Nor Minoan Thera. In any case the problem with that connection with the Celts is one of timing. The site most likely to be historical Troy was destroyed in 1300 BC about 500 years before the first proto Celtic culture sprang up. It seems a bit of a stretch to me anyway. Plus many cities came and went, to narrow it down to one that happens to be famous largely down to Homer is possible but unlikely I would have thought.

    I've been to Thera and there isn't a whole lot left to go by.But there were definitely plenty of other settlements to rival Troy.We simply don't know enough about it yet.

    The principle reason I'm interested in Troy in a Gaelic/Celtic context,is because before Scythia the trail seems to go cold, at least as far as my limited research has gone.

    I propose that the Celtic movement didn't simply evolve amongst various tribes in haphazard fashion.I suspect Celtic art and culture was appropriated from a developed and sustained settlement that was decimated.I think the Western Celts art and culture may have developed from the fragments of such a place.

    It could also have come from another ancient city state.


  • #139
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Well wasn't Troy always considered to be soem great city, even if it wasn't discovered to be true it really comes down to what people thought it to be when these tales were wrtitten.
    How close was Troy to the Anatolia region (as this is supposed to very important to the spread of Agriculture to Europe)?

    Troy is in Northwest Anatolia.There were other cities in Anatolia but Troy would be the most westerly on of it's scale.It's a UNESCO World Heritage site now also.


  • #140
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Misanthrope wrote: »
    Troy is in Northwest Anatolia.There were other cities in Anatolia but Troy would be the most westerly on of it's scale.It's a UNESCO World Heritage site now also.

    Might the tales of Troy have spread with farming? Also that region is a gateway to the East, might htis tie in with the spread of Indo European languages, someone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the area north of the Black Sea more or less considered the home of Uralic languages?


  • #141
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Misanthrope wrote: »
    I've been to Thera and there isn't a whole lot left to go by.
    Oh yes there is. :)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akrotiri_%28Santorini%29 the site is really impressive(look at the "fossil" table legs. Could be from high victorian times). These guys had hot and cold taps and flushing toilets and two storey houses over a 1000 years before Troy was even thought of. Hence so many consider it a shoe in for the mythical Atlantis. That site is closed since a bit collapsed and killed someone IIRC. Though I got in to have a root around after getting lost in the Aegean and ending up in a drunken sing song in Santorini with a bunch of mad Greeks. One of whom's mate was a guard there. Best hangover morning ever. :D
    The principle reason I'm interested in Troy in a Gaelic/Celtic context,is because before Scythia the trail seems to go cold, at least as far as my limited research has gone.
    It may well have sprung from an earlier influence, or the cultural conditions were right for a sudden evolutionary cultural leap forward. That appears to be out of the blue but isn't really. I mean if you look at the high Celtic art of Ireland, you could argue continuity in some of the vernacular all the way back to newgrange and the like. The circular forms for a start. These memes can transmit for a very long time, especially in isolation. Look at early medieval building techniques in Ireland. There are clear links going back to the neolithic in their construction. The Irish round tower, a truly insular vernacular structure has a lot of the building techniques of earlier stone buildings with the single addition of the imported invention of mortar. Things like corbelled ceilings and massive lintels(though the Irish had seen arches they didnt know how to make them at first and some of the early round tower doors have faux arches carved into what are basically stone aged lintels. :). The beehive huts of the Skelligs could be neolithic if we didn't know better.
    fontanalis wrote: »
    Might the tales of Troy have spread with farming? Also that region is a gateway to the East, might htis tie in with the spread of Indo European languages, someone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the area north of the Black Sea more or less considered the home of Uralic languages?
    Yea but farming was way before Troy. Like many thousands of years before. The oldest boundary field systems in western Europe are preserved on achill island and they're really old. Make the pyramids look like babies. That said farming and various techniques of farming don't just come in one neat wave, so its well possible that one later wave was associated like you're saying.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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  • #142
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Might the tales of Troy have spread with farming? Also that region is a gateway to the East, might htis tie in with the spread of Indo European languages, someone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the area north of the Black Sea more or less considered the home of Uralic languages?

    I'd be very interested to hear more about what you know about the farming aspect.


  • #143
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Oh yes there is. :)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akrotiri_%28Santorini%29 the site is really impressive(look at the "fossil" table legs. Could be from high victorian times). These guys had hot and cold taps and flushing toilets and two storey houses over a 1000 years before Troy was even thought of. Hence so many consider it a shoe in for the mythical Atlantis. That site is closed since a bit collapsed and killed someone IIRC. Though I got in to have a root around after getting lost in the Aegean and ending up in a drunken sing song in Santorini with a bunch of mad Greeks. One of whom's mate was a guard there. Best hangover morning ever. :D

    It may well have sprung from an earlier influence, or the cultural conditions were right for a sudden evolutionary cultural leap forward. That appears to be out of the blue but isn't really. I mean if you look at the high Celtic art of Ireland, you could argue continuity in some of the vernacular all the way back to newgrange and the like. The circular forms for a start. These memes can transmit for a very long time, especially in isolation. Look at early medieval building techniques in Ireland. There are clear links going back to the neolithic in their construction. The Irish round tower, a truly insular vernacular structure has a lot of the building techniques of earlier stone buildings with the single addition of the imported invention of mortar. Things like corbelled ceilings and massive lintels(though the Irish had seen arches they didnt know how to make them at first and some of the early round tower doors have faux arches carved into what are basically stone aged lintels. :). The beehive huts of the Skelligs could be neolithic if we didn't know better.

    Yea but farming was way before Troy. Like many thousands of years before. The oldest boundary field systems in western Europe are preserved on achill island and they're really old. Make the pyramids look like babies. That said farming and various techniques of farming don't just come in one neat wave, so its well possible that one later wave was associated like you're saying.

    That's right, the Ceide fields are very old.
    Back to the flood, wouldn't the Anatolia region have been effected by the last pulse of the ice age melting, of course that's yonks ago. I wonder what's known about the region in general and maybe Troy was the latest and greatest in terms of settlements that people would have know n about.
    Interesting stuff.
    I've been looking at various sites in general and it seesm that ireland amy ahve had a very small population at one point before the iron age. I'll see if I can find a link.


  • #144
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Misanthrope wrote: »
    I'd be very interested to hear more about what you know about the farming aspect.

    I don't know very much, hence the questions :D
    I spend my "down time" at work snooping around some genetic/anthropological websites, from what I gathered (possibly mis interpretated) that region seems to be important regarding the spread of farming in the neolithic. I'll have a dig around for links.


  • #145
    oflynno
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 729 ✭✭✭oflynno


    i would love to see a few missing writings from the bibles/gospels along the lines of

    A reading from the letter from St.Paul to the Milesians

    Dear Milesians,How are you guys settling down in the land to the west,i was talking to a few lads at the dock and they said ye brought a load of stuff with ye,so ye wont be home for a bit.

    I was talking to James who said he knew a fella who used to buy copper and tin from the south of that place ye are heading to,he reckons its good stuff,i wouldnt mind getting involved in it,theres great money to be made on it.i charged a tinsmith double for what i got the last time,but hey...i'm no saint.
    Paul


    (That was my tongue in cheek,do not take offence)


  • #146
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Oh yes there is. smile.gifhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akrotiri_%28Santorini%29 the site is really impressive(look at the "fossil" table legs. Could be from high victorian times). These guys had hot and cold taps and flushing toilets and two storey houses over a 1000 years before Troy was even thought of. Hence so many consider it a shoe in for the mythical Atlantis. That site is closed since a bit collapsed and killed someone IIRC. Though I got in to have a root around after getting lost in the Aegean and ending up in a drunken sing song in Santorini with a bunch of mad Greeks. One of whom's mate was a guard there. Best hangover morning ever. biggrin.gif

    I meant more in an Architectural sense.But I was also young when I was there and didn't pay as much attention to the smaller artefacts.I was being dragged along by my father.I'd love to go back now actually.Did you go to Knossos?I was there too, but again, young and foolish.
    The beehive huts of the Skelligs could be neolithic if we didn't know better.

    Funny you should say that.News just came out in the last few weeks that they now believe the settlement to be far older.I'll dry and dig up the link.I think in some cases we might be underestimating the age of Irish archaeological finds.Just a suspicion.The point you made about Arches is a very good one.I wonder what the oldest known arch in Ireland is or might have been.
    Yea but farming was way before Troy. Like many thousands of years before. The oldest boundary field systems in western Europe are preserved on achill island and they're really old. Make the pyramids look like babies. That said farming and various techniques of farming don't just come in one neat wave, so its well possible that one later wave was associated like you're saying.

    The point he made there interests me greatly in light of recent claims of Neanderthal DNA in Human genes.The Neanderthals are thought to have been the first hominids to domesticate livestock as opposed to hunter gathering like the others.

    It is also claimed that Irish and Spanish people have a higher percentage of this DNA and exhibit a high incidence rate of an Occipital Bun on the back of the skull.These traits are also noted in Berbers.
    One other interesting coincidence amongst the same peoples is the high rate of RH- Blood Factor or Rhesus negative.I'm not tying it to anything yet but it is a notable coincidence.


  • #147
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    oflynno wrote: »
    i would love to see a few missing writings from the bibles/gospels along the lines of

    A reading from the letter from St.Paul to the Milesians

    Dear Milesians,How are you guys settling down in the land to the west,i was talking to a few lads at the dock and they said ye brought a load of stuff with ye,so ye wont be home for a bit.

    I was talking to James who said he knew a fella who used to buy copper and tin from the south of that place ye are heading to,he reckons its good stuff,i wouldnt mind getting involved in it,theres great money to be made on it.i charged a tinsmith double for what i got the last time,but hey...i'm no saint.
    Paul


    (That was my tongue in cheek,do not take offence)

    Apparently ,Joseph of Arimathea was one of the world's metallurigal kingpins in his day.He is said to have visited if not lived in Britain.He is of course a key figure in the Biblical resurrection story.He did major business with the Romans(who didn't), but ran his own expeditions.


  • #148
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Misanthrope wrote: »
    I meant more in an Architectural sense.But I was also young when I was there and didn't pay as much attention to the smaller artefacts.
    Gotcha. If and when it opens up again and if you get the chance, its really worth a look. You'd like it.

    Funny you should say that.News just came out in the last few weeks that they now believe the settlement to be far older.I'll dry and dig up the link.I think in some cases we might be underestimating the age of Irish archaeological finds.Just a suspicion.The point you made about Arches is a very good one.I wonder what the oldest known arch in Ireland is or might have been.
    A true arch? I think it's on a round tower. Defo a church building anyway.
    The point he made there interests me greatly in light of recent claims of Neanderthal DNA in Human genes.The Neanderthals are thought to have been the first hominids to domesticate livestock as opposed to hunter gathering like the others.
    Yea the DNA in moderns is very interesting. That said Neanderthals didn't domesticate anything as far as we know. They didn't even have dogs, which some have suggested gave us a major advantage that led to us being around and them dying out around 30,000 years ago. The first domestication events we know of were modern humans and the domestic dog around 40,000 years ago but maybe before. Livestock/farming type stuff is closer to 8000 years ago.
    It is also claimed that Irish and Spanish people have a higher percentage of this DNA and exhibit a high incidence rate of an Occipital Bun on the back of the skull.These traits are also noted in Berbers.
    One other interesting coincidence amongst the same peoples is the high rate of RH- Blood Factor or Rhesus negative.I'm not tying it to anything yet but it is a notable coincidence.
    It shouldn't surprise us I suppose to find more of the archaic DNA in the more isolated outposts of human settlement. Not so much that archaics moved into those places earlier, just that they're the places they had less later admixture. Like the Andaman islanders. Very isolated. Oldest DNA line out of Africa, left after a migration 50,000 years(IIRC) back.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • #149
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    I came across this on another site.

    "
    1The whole Celtic race has been regarded as descended from Gomer, though history suggests modern Celts are descended from both Gomer and Magog. Archaeologists and ethnologists agree that the first Indo-European group to spread across Europe were Celts.

    The Irish Celts claim to be to the descendants of Magog, while the Welsh Celts claim to be to the descendants of Gomer. Irish chronicles, genealogies, plus an extensive number of manuscripts which have survived from ancient times, reveal their roots.

    The Irish were descendants of Scythians, also known as Magogians, which is strongly supported by etymological evidence. Archaeological evidence shows that both the Celts (from Gomer) and Scythians (from Magog) freely shared and mingled cultures at their earliest stages. Russian and eastern European excavations plainly reveal the blending of these two groups. Their geographical locations (what is now eastern Europe, southern Russia and Asia Minor) were referred to by the Greeks under the name of Celto-Scythae, which was populated by the Celts to the south and west, and the Scythians to the north.

    The ancient Greeks first called the northern peoples by the general name of Scythae; but when they became acquainted with the nations in the west, they began to call them by the different names of Celts, including the Celto-Scythae. Celts and Scythians were considered essentially the same peoples, based on geography, though many independent tribes of Celts and Scythians existed. The Latins called them "Galli," and the Romans referred to them as "Gauls." Later names used by Greeks were the Galatai or Galatae, Getae, Celtae and Keltoi.

    In the third century before Christ (about 280 B.C.), the Gauls invaded Rome and were ultimately repelled into Greece, where they migrated into the north-central part of Asia Minor (Anatolia). Known as fiercely independent peoples, they conquered the indigenous peoples of that region and established their own independent kingdom. The land became known as Galatia. The Apostle Paul wrote his famous epistle to their descendants, the Galatians. Jewish historian Flavius Josephus wrote that the Galatians or Gauls of his day (93 A.D.) were previously called Gomerites.
    Early Celtic tribes (from Gomer) settled much of the European theater, including present-day Spain, France, England and Germany, prior to contact with Scythians.

    For many centuries France was called Gaul, after the Celtic descendants of Gomer, whom ceded the territory to Romans and Germanic/Teutonic Franks (whence France) in the 4th century A.D. Northwest Spain is called Galicia to this day. Some of the Gomerites migrated further to what is now called Wales. The Welsh claim their ancestors "first landed on the Isle of Britain from France, about three hundred years after the flood."

    The Celtic language survives intact today mainly in the two variants of Welsh and Irish/Scottish Gaelic. The Welsh call their language Gomeraeg (after Gomer). The Celts of today are descendants of Gomer, and of the blended tribes of Magog and Gomer."


  • #150
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    this link mentions a beer dinking cult :D

    http://www.jstor.org/pss/20567945


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  • #151
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Misanthrope wrote: »
    Speaking of myths,the Twins myth seems to be ubiquitous to ancient cultures.Children of Lir, Romulous and Remus, Castor and Pollux etc.

    This could be a thread that links a lot of seemingly different cultures to a common source.

    I can't wait to hear more.Great thread


    Not to mention the similarities between David v Goliath and Lugh v Balor


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