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The Black and tans in Ireland

13

Comments

  • #102
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    T runner wrote: »
    The only protestants who can judge were the protestants who remained here. There is absolutely no substantiation for claiming that a majority or even a large minority were mistreated: it simply didnt happen.

    The historian ATQ Stewart acknowledes this in his book on Ulster protestant history (The Narrow Ground). He says that by and large protestants were treated well in the south as it was in their interest to do.

    The movement of some protestants out of the free state can attributed to members of the withdrawing British Army. Some may have married up north as there was a greater pool of potential co-religionist mates there.

    Some may have married into catholicism. Some may have moved due to wanting to be a part of a protestant majority (around the border perhaps) but very few or none moved to evade persecution and the vast majority remained.

    It was partitioning the country into two religious states that caused some of the polarisation. If anyone is to blame for that Im afraid it is the advocates of partition.

    The state schools in Northern Ireland all have a very Unionest-pro British -Protestant ethos. (A protestant clergyman on every school council). There was no secular, neutral alternative for Catholic children whatsoever.

    It was clearly policy that state schools were de facto for protestants only.

    not that this has anything to do with the thread but protestant churchs relenquished all control over protestant schools following an education act brought in abouy 1940, these days all so called protestant school, follow the same curriculam as any other state within the UK, state schools can not discrimate on the grounds of religion. There is no concil for protestant maintained schools and protestant churchs did not retain control over school property.


  • #103
    McArmalite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    junder wrote: »
    the only model to avoid civil war is the one we have ie partition, the size of northern ireland may have varied to some degree but the result would have been the same.
    Indeed here's a link to a unionist rally in Donegal. No fight out of the same 'Ulster Volunteers' when the brits said cheerio, we're leaving you. Not a shot or barely a whimper from them or their unionist brethern across the border.

    On October 2. 1913, Sir Edward Carson held a great rally at Raphoe. 1500 Donegal volunteers paraded under the command of the fifth Earl of Leitrim.

    http://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-room/history-heritage/heritage-towns/the-heritage-towns-of-don/raphoe/the-laggan-and-the-ulster/index.xml
    even now a united ireland would spark of wide scale civil desturbances which would quickly escalate.
    Well there you have it from a typical lovely unionist who claims to believe in democracy. So even if there is a nationalist majority in the occupied counties, the Lambeg drum etc will be brought out and screams of 'bloodbaths', ' a slaugther from Dublin to Cork ' , etc is what our lovely unionists friends might threaten to do :D

    And then these are the very people who pontificate that democracy cannot be hijacked by the threats of a violent minority ?
    Much is made about Northern Ireland being a protestant state for a protestant people bit conviently forget that the Free state later RoI was a catholic state for catholic people, there was nothing about the free state that remotely interested Unionists in wanting to be part of, and as it was there was a exodius of protestants from the free state into northern ireland which would account for the massive protestant population drop in the free state/roi after partition.
    Sure the Catholic Church had too much influence in the state, but lets not pretend it was a mirror reflection of the unionist regieme in the six counties.
    Could the free state have defeated the UVF we can only speculate and even then any debate about that would likely end up in a pissing contest. Either way the fact that the UVF was created and armed in the way it was shows how much resolve there was to resist being forced into a united ireland
    The UVF, FFS what's their capability. Often half drunk, running into a pub or firing from a car in a nationalist area on totally defenceless and innocent people. If the IRA and Free State army had taken on you crowd minus the brits - they'd have finished in a handful of days. And anyway, it's very questionable if they had the guts to kick off without the brits.


  • #104
    McArmalite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Ne Temere?
    93% of the state schools being run by the Roman catholic church
    the cases regarding non catholic Librarians and non catholic doctors?

    protestants may not have been persecuted in Ireland, but the Catholic Church made sure that the government made life was as uncomfortable as possible for them
    Well we certainly don't need a lecture form the brits on religious equality. This is a state that even up to today insists in law that it's head of state cannot be a Catholic and has a number of seats reserved in it's government ( House of Lords ) for the Church of England.

    Now imagine if we had laws stating that the President could not be a Protestant and we reserved seats in the Senate for the Catholic Church ?


  • #105
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    McArmalite wrote: »
    Well we certainly don't need a lecture form the brits on religious equality. This is a state that even up to today insists in law that it's head of state cannot be a Catholic and has a number of seats reserved in it's government ( House of Lords ) for the Church of England.

    Now imagine if we had laws stating that the President could not be a Protestant and we reserved seats in the Senate for the Catholic Church ?

    There is (As usual:rolleyes:) only one person "Lecturing" around here.


  • #106
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,112 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    McArmalite wrote: »
    we reserved seats in the Senate for the Catholic Church ?

    They didn't need seats, just strings.


  • #107
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    McArmalite wrote: »
    ]
    And then these are the very people who pontificate that democracy cannot be hijacked by the threats of a violent minority ?
    .

    Protestants dont pontificate :)



    McArmalite wrote: »
    Well we certainly don't need a lecture form the brits on religious equality.?

    Fears don't have to be real they can be imaginary.

    You are looking at it based on todays value systems and with the benefit of hindsight that lots of the fears were unfounded.

    My own view is the exodus of protestants from the South was our loss.

    Presbyterians had also been discriminated against as non conformists too.

    So you had two issues - the sectarian divide and political divide.


  • #108
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    CDfm wrote: »
    Fears don't have to be real they can be imaginary.

    You are looking at it based on todays value systems and with the benefit of hindsight that lots of the fears were unfounded.

    My own view is the exodus of protestants from the South was our loss.

    Presbyterians had also been discriminated against as non conformists too.

    So you had two issues - the sectarian divide and political divide.

    There is a belief that all protestants were the Anglo Irish, but from what I gather, a lot of people renounced catholicism in order to climb the social ladder, so a lot would have ben home grown Irish. I doubt very much they would have left.

    You also have the people who would have heard De Velera talking about catholic Doctors (people should have the right to talk to a catholic on their death bed or whatever it was) and thinking that there was little future for protestant medical practitioners in Ireland. This is one example, but it kind of sends a message out.

    Then you would have had those who left with the army, although a lot of these would have been on a kind of rotation anyway.

    Lastly, you would have had those who realised that times in Ireland were going to be hard and just moved to the UK or wherever, to be join up with family. Emmigrating if you like.

    For the rest, I have no doubt that they were generally accepted and there were very few cases of Protestants being singled out for abuse, but i am sure a lot kept their heads down anyway, for fear of standing out "Like A Prod":D

    Personally I think Ne Temere would have accounted for a lot, I know several men through the church who married Catholic women and had to sign an agreement stating that they would bring their children up as catholics before the priest would give their partners permission to marry non catholics. Rome's very own breeding out programme.


  • #109
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    They didn't need seats, just strings.

    LOL :D They didn't even need that some of the Irish Catholics were like crazy fundamentalists.


    Anyway -that aside, discrimination in the north was structural inequality. Thats a different animal to what happened in the south. It would have been more difficult to do that in the South given that lots of the institutions of state and local government and of justice were inherited.

    When was the event in Limerick and the jews 1905/08 ???? so maybe their fears werent baseless after all.


  • #110
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    junder wrote: »
    not that this has anything to do with the thread but protestant churchs relenquished all control over protestant schools following an education act brought in abouy 1940, these days all so called protestant school, follow the same curriculam as any other state within the UK, state schools can not discrimate on the grounds of religion. There is no concil for protestant maintained schools and protestant churchs did not retain control over school property.

    As you can see from the below Controlled or State controlled schools have the Protestant Churches represented on the board of governers which is quite far from your claim of protestant churches relinquishing all control.
    These are essentially protestant schools.


    SOURCE


    i) Controlled Schools: These are essentially Protestant schools - they are owned by the Education and Library boards, although they are mostly controlled by their Boards of Governors. The Protestant churches are represented on the Board of Governors.
    (ii) Catholic Maintained Schools: These are essentially Catholic schools - they are owned by the Catholic Church but are managed by a Board of Governors. The Education and Library Boards provide some financial assistance, by financing recurrent costs and the employment of non-teaching staff.
    (iii) Other Maintained: These are essentially Protestant schools, in that they are owned by the Protestant church and managed by a Board of Governors. Like the Catholic maintained schools, they received funding from the Education and Library Boards for the recurrent costs.
    (iv) Voluntary Grammar: These schools are owned by school trustees and managed by a Board of Governors.
    (v) Grant Maintained Integrated Schools: These are essentially mixed schools, for Catholic and Protestant children. They are partially owned by trustees and managed by a Board of Governors, with their recurrent costs being met by the Department of Education.


    In the Republic 55% of schools are categorized as secondary with some religious influence. The state paying 93% of teachers cost uniformly in each school. This percentage is falling rapidly.

    The remainder are fully supported state schools and the expectation is that these mixed religion schools will be in the majority shortly.

    BTW Protestant population in Dublin now 9% (100,000) and rising.


  • #111
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    T runner wrote: »
    BTW Protestant population in Dublin now 9% (100,000) and rising.

    I wonder how they base that figure?

    In the Chruch I attend, I would hazard a guess and say that 25 to 50% are baptised/confirmed catholics who choose to attend an Anglican Church for one reason or another. Mainly because they like singing and we have a pretty good choir from what I can tell:D


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  • #112
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    Wasnt there a "restitution" commision of some kind after the civil war that made payments to protestants who's houses had been burned?


  • #113
    McArmalite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    BTW everybody the thread is not about religion but- The Black and tans in Ireland - We ( including myself ) have gone off topic. Anyone know roughly how many were in the Tans ?


  • #114
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    McArmalite wrote: »
    BTW everybody the thread is not about religion but- The Black and tans in Ireland

    You started it:D

    We ( including myself ) have gone off topic. Anyone know roughly how many were in the Tans
    ?

    8 to 9,500 I believe and they were largely WW1 veterans.

    (I understand there was a similar regiment sent to help the White Russians and David Bowies grandfather was in that.)

    I wonder how many veterans faced them from the republican side. as that must have influenced the British.


  • #115
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,112 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    http://www.jerusalemquarterly.org/ViewArticle.aspx?id=305

    I knew there had to be some priests involved. I wonder how many of the B&Ts were actually Irish?:eek:


    "The group of former “Black and Tans” deployed in Palestine were a motley crew. Among them were excommunicated priests and other former clergy, lawyers who had been debarred, a man who was arrested for murder in Mexico but had escaped, and a former medical doctor who allegedly raped a female patient after performing an abortion. In addition to formerly serving in the “Black and Tans,” most of these men were also veterans of WWI, some holding high ranks and many having received medals of distinction. They drank heavily. In Palestine, they wore a distinctive uniform that included a Stetson broad-brimmed hat, reminiscent of a cowboy hat.12"


  • #116
    McArmalite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    CDfm wrote: »
    You started it:D


    ?

    8 to 9,500 I believe and they were largely WW1 veterans.

    (I understand there was a similar regiment sent to help the White Russians and David Bowies grandfather was in that.)

    I wonder how many veterans faced them from the republican side. as that must have influenced the British.
    No I didn't bring religion into the thread ya silly f***er ya. junder did in post #90 " the Free state later RoI was a catholic state for catholic people, there was nothing about the free state that remotely interested Unionists in wanting to be part of, and as it was there was a exodius of protestants from the free state into northern ireland "


  • #117
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    McArmalite wrote: »
    the Free state later RoI was a catholic state for catholic people, there was nothing about the free state that remotely interested Unionists in wanting to be part of, and as it was there was a exodius of protestants from the free state into northern ireland "

    What about the Pearsons in Offally - was there was a policy of reprisals against "collobarators"?

    Interesting link on the execution of two of the brothers and the burning of the family homestead. There was no definate evidence against them just suspicion.

    http://www.drb.ie/more_details/09-09-19/A_House_Built_on_Sand.aspx

    The Joyce Family from Galway, while Catholic, were Unionists and emigrated.

    So did Protestants fear reprisals or the boycott of their businesses ??


  • #118
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    I wonder how they base that figure?

    In the Chruch I attend, I would hazard a guess and say that 25 to 50% are baptised/confirmed catholics who choose to attend an Anglican Church for one reason or another. Mainly because they like singing and we have a pretty good choir from what I can tell:D

    There is a large English ethnic minority in Dublin. Do they account for many of the congregation?


  • #119
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    CDfm wrote: »
    What about the Pearsons in Offally - was there was a policy of reprisals against "collobarators"?

    Interesting link on the execution of two of the brothers and the burning of the family homestead. There was no definate evidence against them just suspicion.

    http://www.drb.ie/more_details/09-09-19/A_House_Built_on_Sand.aspx

    The Joyce Family from Galway, while Catholic, were Unionists and emigrated.

    So did Protestants fear reprisals or the boycott of their businesses ??

    The cases of religious persecution were so rare as to not be a factor.


  • #120
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    T runner wrote: »
    The cases of religious persecution were so rare as to not be a factor.

    This is about the Black and Tans - just wondering did you have reprisals against persons associated with the British forces that lead to the injury or loss of life or destruction or damage to property?

    Say Sir Arthur Vicars of Kilmorna House in Kerry was killed and the House burnt down. He had been some sort of public servant and connected in some way to the theft of the irish crown jewels ( interesting in its own right -see link)

    http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/irhismys/jewels.htm


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  • #121
    o1s1n
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,257 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    I'll always remember my Great Gran telling us stories about the Black and Tans raiding/attacking their house. Her two older brothers were IRA members so the Tans arrived on several occasions looking for stashed firearms. During one search she turned to a guy searching a wardrobe (She was about six at the time) and in pure outrage shouted 'What are you doing?! The only things you'll find in there are cobwebs and spiders!'

    On one occasion the gits even fired a shot in through the letterbox.

    She really did have a hate for them. Far greater than any disliking of the British.


  • #122
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    T runner wrote: »
    As you can see from the below Controlled or State controlled schools have the Protestant Churches represented on the board of governers which is quite far from your claim of protestant churches relinquishing all control.
    These are essentially protestant schools.


    SOURCE






    In the Republic 55% of schools are categorized as secondary with some religious influence. The state paying 93% of teachers cost uniformly in each school. This percentage is falling rapidly.

    The remainder are fully supported state schools and the expectation is that these mixed religion schools will be in the majority shortly.

    BTW Protestant population in Dublin now 9% (100,000) and rising.


    you missed this quote

    "The majority of Protestant children in Northern Ireland attend state controlled schools, whilst the majority of Catholic children attend Catholic maintained schools. These are essentially Protestant and Catholic schools"

    And the reason the protestant population is now growing is due to immergartion, alot of africans for example would belong to the reformed faith.

    but this has nothing to do with the thread, as already picked up on by somebody less prone to pontificating real or imagined the precepetion the free state was a catholic state for catholic people and protestants/unionists were/are not welcome and as i said preception is everything


  • #123
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    McArmalite wrote: »
    Indeed here's a link to a unionist rally in Donegal. No fight out of the same 'Ulster Volunteers' when the brits said cheerio, we're leaving you. Not a shot or barely a whimper from them or their unionist brethern across the border.

    On October 2. 1913, Sir Edward Carson held a great rally at Raphoe. 1500 Donegal volunteers paraded under the command of the fifth Earl of Leitrim.

    http://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-room/history-heritage/heritage-towns/the-heritage-towns-of-don/raphoe/the-laggan-and-the-ulster/index.xml
    Well there you have it from a typical lovely unionist who claims to believe in democracy. So even if there is a nationalist majority in the occupied counties, the Lambeg drum etc will be brought out and screams of 'bloodbaths', ' a slaugther from Dublin to Cork ' , etc is what our lovely unionists friends might threaten to do :D

    And then these are the very people who pontificate that democracy cannot be hijacked by the threats of a violent minority ?


    Sure the Catholic Church had too much influence in the state, but lets not pretend it was a mirror reflection of the unionist regieme in the six counties.


    The UVF, FFS what's their capability. Often half drunk, running into a pub or firing from a car in a nationalist area on totally defenceless and innocent people. If the IRA and Free State army had taken on you crowd minus the brits - they'd have finished in a handful of days. And anyway, it's very questionable if they had the guts to kick off without the brits.
    I was refering to the 1912 UVF and the my point about any debate about the free state being able to defeat the UVF descending into a pissing contest was directed at you


  • #124
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    junder wrote: »
    I was refering to the 1912 UVF and the my point about any debate about the free state being able to defeat the UVF descending into a pissing contest was directed at you

    Fair comment; and the 1969 threatened invasion of direct military intervention in Northern Ireland was laughable.

    WAs it 8000 UVF vs 2,500 in the Irish Army ???

    How close we came to being British again:rolleyes:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/30/ireland-dublin-troubles-1969-invasion
    'planned invasion of Northern Ireland'

    Republic 'faced a Bay of Pigs' if Jack Lynch had sent in troops as Troubles erupted .
    The BBC's Belfast HQ and the city's international airport were to be blown up as part of an Irish invasion in response to the eruption of the Troubles in Northern Ireland, a TV documentary reveals. But troops sent by the government in Dublin to take over Newry across the border would have been annihilated by the UK army responding to the invasion.
    Although an incursion into Northern Ireland never happened in August 1969, the programme claims that forces inside Jack Lynch's government tried to push for a military intervention. He came under tremendous pressure to respond militarily, especially from hardline nationalists inside his Fianna Fáil party. Des O'Malley, Lynch's parliamentary secretary and later founder of the Progressive Democrats, said cabinet hard-liners such as Kevin Boland and Neil Blaney pushed for an armed invasion.
    "Boland was the most vocal, and Blaney was not far behind him, I think…their attitude was that the Irish government should take a very belligerent stance," O'Malley said. "They wanted overt military activity."
    Many unionists, including Northern Ireland's prime minister, James Chichester-Clark, also thought the Irish army would try to seize nationalist majority towns such as Newry and the west bank of Derry. On the programme John Taylor, then junior home affairs minister and later deputy Ulster Unionist leader, says: "James Chichester-Clark believed that the Irish army was going to invade Northern Ireland. I was very anxious, very worried, because I knew it depended on me advising the prime minister to what exactly was going on."
    Taylor ordered the mobilisation of 8,000 part-time B Specials to repel a possible invasion. He claims Lynch's TV broadcast on 13 August, warning the Republic would "not stand by" while northern nationalists were injured in clashes with the Stormont police force, only inflamed the situation. Now Lord Kilclooney, Taylor calls Lynch's remark "one of the most irresponsible" in the past 40 years.



  • #125
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    T runner wrote: »
    There is a large English ethnic minority in Dublin. Do they account for many of the congregation?

    out of an average congregation of about 65, there are only two that I am aware of, both of whom are married to Irish Catholics.


  • #126
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    out of an average congregation of about 65, there are only two that I am aware of, both of whom are married to Irish Catholics.

    But a lot of catholics have joined other christian churches too.Thats not for reasons of advancement.

    Very surprised at English as an ethnic minority - I wouldnt class them as that in the same way as I wouldnt class the french as an ethnic minority. Maybe thats just me.They assimilate.


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  • #127
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    CDfm wrote: »
    But a lot of catholics have joined other christian churches too.Thats not for reasons of advancement.
    not now it isn't, but in Victorian Ireland it would have been
    CDfm wrote: »
    Very surprised at English as an ethnic minority - I wouldnt class them as that in the same way as I wouldnt class the french as an ethnic minority. Maybe thats just me.They assimilate.

    aah sure, we're almost Irish except for our accents so.:D


  • #128
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Fratton Fred wrote: »



    aah sure, we're almost Irish except for our accents so.:D

    Thats all right so:D

    You might like this http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63624202&postcount=25


  • #129
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I have been told of a female relative killed by the Black and Tans - is there any definative list of civilian casualties of the war of independence


  • #130
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    CDfm wrote: »
    I have been told of a female relative killed by the Black and Tans - is there any definative list of civilian casualties of the war of independence

    I don't know of any definitive online sources unfortunately. I know you said she was a civilian casualty but you might get lucky and find something here;

    http://www.military.ie/dfhq/archives/bureau.htm


    Bureau of Military History (1913-21)

    The Bureau of Military History was established in January 1947 by Oscar Traynor TD, Minister for Defence and former Captain in the Irish Volunteers.

    The objective of the Bureau was 'to assemble and co-ordinate material to form the basis for the compilation of the history of the movement for Independence from the formation of the Irish Volunteers on 25th November 1913, to the 11th July 1921.' (Report of the Director, 1957).

    Over the following ten years 1773 witness statements, 334 sets of contemporary documents, 42 photographs, 12 voice recordings, 210 photographs of action sites Easter Week and a collection of press cuttings were assembled by the Bureau from a variety of people involved in activities of the time.

    The establishment of the Bureau gave individuals involved a chance to record their own stories. Members of groups such as the Irish Volunteers and subsequently the IRA, Cumann na mBan, the IRB, Sinn Féin, the Irish Citizen Army, relatives of deceased individuals and people not associated with any organisation were sought out to give as broad a range as possible to the collection. At present there are four civilian archivists working at Military Archives under the direction of Comdt Victor Laing processing the collection.

    The Bureau of Miltary History collection is now open to the public.

    Unfortunately they are closing on march 1st until may

    http://www.nationalarchives.ie/contactus/MilitaryArchivesClosureLetter.html

    MilitaryArchivesClosureLetter.JPG


  • #131
    Vourney
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Vourney


    My grandfather was threatened at gunpoint once or twice. But this information only came out a few times when my father was drunk and started to rage about black and tans, so the real facts were unclear. My grandfather worked as a guardsman for one of the railway companies, so he may have been suspect due to his job. I know he did everything he could to stay out of the conflict. There was a story that they tore apart my grandfathers house searching for something, in Cork. Not sure which house, probably Cork City. Prior to that they lived in Kinsale and Waterfall Junction.


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  • #132
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    As I understand it from my grandfather the IRA in Cork used to move arms along the railway tracks and of course the quickest way of moving troops was by rail.

    I am sure your grandfather was top on everyones list ;)


  • #133
    Padraig Og
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭Padraig Og


    Heres an example of one of the worst killings (By the RIC Auxiliaries not the Tans) - the photographs mentioned of the bodies are in the archives in Galway

    http://www.warofindependence.net/?page_id=260


  • #134
    Padraig Og
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭Padraig Og


    he regular British soldiers weren't always the nicest chaps either
    http://www.warofindependence.net/?page_id=147


  • #135
    Vourney
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Vourney


    That's interesting. I'm just starting to learn about the impact of the civil war in Cork, as I was raised in the US, and my family never talked about it. My father left cork in 1952. Even when it was talked about it, some of the talk was lies or half truths. But yes, I figured his position on the railway would make him suspect. Plus I am not sure about his father, my great-grandfather, whether or not he was neutral or not. He also worked on the railway. They were from Currah, near Crossbarry, which I have learned was in the middle of it -- the civil war. The story we were told was that he traded farming for railway work to have a good steady job.


  • #136
    Vourney
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Vourney


    I saw the names of the third west cork brigade somewhere, and there was a Denis Kelly on the list, for the division or group related to Bandon, which is the same area as Currah/Crossbarry. I wonder if I would ever be able to find out if this was my great grandfather, or my grandfather's brother, Denis Kelly. I'm sure there were probably quite a number of Denis Kelly's in the area.
    I don't mean any disrespect at all, but I don't have to see any statistics or proof of how bad it was, I full well remember the sound of my father's voice whenever he spoke of the black and tans, which said it all. And any talk of the auxies was beyond that.


  • #137
    Read this
    Closed Accounts Posts: 41 ✭Read this


    One poster drew a comparison with the Black and Tans and current contractors in Iraq. There are some similarities - especially in the amount of latitude they were given. But the ruthlessness of the B&T's was also borne out of their experience on the Western Front. They had already seen mass murder up front, and nothing shocked them. Many must have been sociopaths by the time they reached Ireland. They indeed committed many atrocities, and hastened Britain's withdrawal. That other sociopath - Churchill - did of course have a hand in it too.

    It is rumoured that the IRA might have murdered one or two people as well.

    And everybody went to Church on Sunday.


  • #138
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    If you give a bunch of guys booze, guns and a police badge ........................


  • #139
    not bakunin
    Registered Users Posts: 265 ✭✭not bakunin


    CDfm wrote: »
    Fair comment; and the 1969 threatened invasion of direct military intervention in Northern Ireland was laughable.

    WAs it 8000 UVF vs 2,500 in the Irish Army ???

    How close we came to being British again:rolleyes:

    I don't think that Lynch was approaching this situation from a military point of view, despite your or the Gaurdian article's claims. He saw the issue as a humanitarian crisis, and was suggesting sending Irish troops just over the border to help set up hospital camps and provide ambulance services etc.

    This is the full quote from his speech on the 13th August '69 which caused all the commotion: "The Irish Government can no longer stand by and see innocent people injured, or perhaps even worse".
    He was also advising British PM Harold Wilson on the situation at this time, hardly advisable if you're considering "going to war" with that nation.


  • #140
    Read this
    Closed Accounts Posts: 41 ✭Read this


    CDfm wrote: »
    McArmalite wrote: »
    ]


    .

    Protestants dont pontificate :)


    That was funny.


  • #141
    Vourney
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Vourney


    I was wondering if there was a "central repository" for all of the information from various sources about the civil war. It seems like there is a lot of information out there. Is there any one of the Irish Universities history departments that is known to be the expert in this area?


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  • #142
    indioblack
    Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭indioblack


    How long were the Tans in Ireland and why were they withdrawn?


  • #143
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Vourney wrote: »
    I was wondering if there was a "central repository" for all of the information from various sources about the civil war. It seems like there is a lot of information out there. Is there any one of the Irish Universities history departments that is known to be the expert in this area?

    there isnt really -what are you looking for ????
    indioblack wrote: »
    How long were the Tans in Ireland and why were they withdrawn?

    They arrived in March 1920 and you have to look at it in context that the British also recruited for "auxiliaries" to assist the white Russians and David Bowie's Grandfather (? or great uncle) joined that force.

    My understanding is that after independence they were redployed to Palestine.


  • #144
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    indioblack wrote: »
    How long were the Tans in Ireland and why were they withdrawn?

    The Tans were disbanded at the time when the RIC was disbanded in 1922. During their two years in Ireland about 7,000 served.

    They were a troubled bunch and afterwards some of them were imprisoned in Britain for crimes committed there. Two were hanged for murder in Britain and another wanted for murder there committed suicide prior to being apprehended.


  • #145
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    MarchDub wrote: »
    The Tans were disbanded at the time when the RIC was disbanded in 1922. During their two years in Ireland about 7,000 served.

    Here is a link that might interest you.



    full_pdf.jpg
    The Image of “Black and Tans” in late Mandate PalestineRichard Andrew Cahill The “Black and Tans” were an auxiliary force that the British had hobbled together after World War I, in order to squelch the Irish Rebellion of 1919-1920. They became infamous for their use of excessive force, brash tactics (including torture) and communal punishment. In a recent article, I examined how over 650 former “Black and Tans” were signed on to serve in Palestine in the early 1920s. Based on research in the records of the British National Archive as well as newspapers and other sources from the 1920s and 1930s, I traced the activities and several personalities of the former “Black and Tans” who served together from 1922 to 1926 as the British Palestine Gendarmerie, and then as individual members of the Palestine Police. Many rose to the highest rank and some were at the center of controversies. In that same article, I analyzed public discourse, including the media, concerning these former “Black and Tans.” The astonishing finding was that up through the late 1930s, public discourse in the U.S. and Britain did not bat an eye at the conduct of these infamous men



    http://www.jerusalemquarterly.org/ViewArticle.aspx?id=330


  • #146
    Stinicker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    I had two Great Grand Uncles shot dead by the Black and Tans while playing Gaelic Football, My Grandfather was a medic with the IRA in the War of Independence and they were shot in reprisal for his involvement.

    On my Fathers side of the Family the black and tans used the adjoining Farm as a shooting target range but they never troubled my fathers family. A protestant gamekeeper was disarmed and shot dead with his own gun in the locality a few years before the war so I think they were watching the area tightly for insurrections. During the Civil War the IRA inflicted a heavy toll upon the freestaters in the area and my fathers side of the family were staunc FG to this day, my mothers being IRA were Fianna Fail up until 2007 and are now FG!

    History is great!


  • #147
    Vourney
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Vourney


    Whereabouts were your great grand uncles shot, if you don't mind me asking.


  • #148
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Vourney you should look at this or search rhe CIE archives
    Morlar wrote: »
    I don't know of any definitive online sources unfortunately. I know you said she was a civilian casualty but you might get lucky and find something here;

    http://www.military.ie/dfhq/archives/bureau.htm


    Bureau of Military History (1913-21)

    The Bureau of Military History was established in January 1947 by Oscar Traynor TD, Minister for Defence and former Captain in the Irish Volunteers.

    The objective of the Bureau was 'to assemble and co-ordinate material to form the basis for the compilation of the history of the movement for Independence from the formation of the Irish Volunteers on 25th November 1913, to the 11th July 1921.' (Report of the Director, 1957).

    Over the following ten years 1773 witness statements, 334 sets of contemporary documents, 42 photographs, 12 voice recordings, 210 photographs of action sites Easter Week and a collection of press cuttings were assembled by the Bureau from a variety of people involved in activities of the time.

    The establishment of the Bureau gave individuals involved a chance to record their own stories. Members of groups such as the Irish Volunteers and subsequently the IRA, Cumann na mBan, the IRB, Sinn Féin, the Irish Citizen Army, relatives of deceased individuals and people not associated with any organisation were sought out to give as broad a range as possible to the collection. At present there are four civilian archivists working at Military Archives under the direction of Comdt Victor Laing processing the collection.

    The Bureau of Miltary History collection is now open to the public.

    Unfortunately they are closing on march 1st until may

    http://www.nationalarchives.ie/contactus/MilitaryArchivesClosureLetter.html

    MilitaryArchivesClosureLetter.JPG


  • #149
    dermothickey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 489 ✭✭dermothickey


    Heard about an old woman in Cork one day when a bunch of English West Ham supporters arrived in her pub and started singing "FOREVER BLOWING BUBBLES" She told them to hush up and stop singing black n tan songs. Apparently it was a popular song of the time and the Tans used to sing it in jest to people who's tongues they cut off who wouldn't talk or else talked As Ghaeilge


  • #150
    cmickdaly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 64 ✭✭cmickdaly


    in cork prison during the war of independence rape was used habitually as a means of control by prisoners against prisoner and guards against prisoners. a work colleague told me about her grandfather who witnessed such activities


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  • #151
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Anecdotal tripe in an ancient thread. :rolleyes:

    ****



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