David Irving

GideonMcGrane wrote: »

What have you read of the deniers, which of them provides the best account from their pov?

Perhaps just google holocaust denial, you will get plenty of choice, from the full on neo-nazi types to those who have conspiracy theories etc . The a David Icke forum has a section dedicated to this and some other stuff and you get both sides there so that might be a start for you.

If like me you start off from a position of belief , when you read denier views it, I feel , makes you research more and dig a bit deeper than perhaps you would before, and if like me you do , it might just make your belief stronger, but it will certainly add to your overall knowledge if this huge subject.

GideonMcGrane wrote: »

Surely if you have questions you shouldn't be afraid to ask, print and be damned

This is a good point, and one I agree with.
For me it had forced me to research more into this and increased my understanding of this period in history, thus affording me the ability to debate and argue my view not merely from a humanitarian side but also from a historical and "scientific" if that's the right word side.
Deniers are not just deniers of the holocaust, but there are also anti Semites who use the holocaust for their world view or to back it up and conspiracy theories or their political view of Zionism or Israel etc.
But then there are deniers who are a bit more methodical in their approach and have to be dealt with in that manner, and it is vital to understand this approach and method so as to disprove and show the errors in their stand.
It certainly is a mine field and there us a huge amount if information and misinformation out there ...,you job is to sift through the crap and find the truth (as you see it )

GideonMcGrane wrote: »

While we can say Hitler was mad, and even his immediate followers were mad, how far can we extend this madness? And on what basis can we say such madness became widespread?

Check out the dark charisma of Adolf Hitler by Laurence Rees...this may shed some light on this subject for you...I think the book is serialised on youtube too.
(just checked it is on your tube..but I suggest you buy the book)

And dont forget the importance of the Nuremburg Laws in all this, and the part it played .

GideonMcGrane wrote: »

So today we are in the EU with a Germany that basically controls the Euro economy, was this the same nation that was capable of falling into a state of madness that so many of them went along willingly and even enthusiastically with genocide?

Dont forget there were plenty of willing accomplices too, from other nations.

GideonMcGrane wrote: »

I must read that, sounds interesting.

I suppose I am trying to put myself in the position of a German soldier; if we can say they were just as moral etc as British or US soldiers to begin with (otherwise we are saying there is something wrong with Germans :eek: ), how did such men accept gassing, murdering children by the thousand?

Yeah it certainly is an interesting issue. But we must make sure that things are set straight here...you say German Soldier, and this is not the case, German Soldiers were not involved with this type of thing, einsatzgruppen, some of the SS branches, but not the Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine etc or ordinary enlisted men. It is important to differentiate here.

On an earlier post I said that the reasons behind moving from bullets to gassing,at the early stages, was a very interesting point.
Well the reason was, according to SS officials, that the enlisted men of einsatzgruppen, for example, found it very distressing to have to kill so many people, eye to eye, so to speak.



There were apparently psychological issues arising it from it (surprise surprise) and they pushed for a different way to save the men from the psychological trauma associated with such things. Of course not giving a single moments thought to the poor victims I hasten to add.
This led to the initial gassings. Which in turn led to darker things yet to come.

Of course that was in the field, the camps is a different setup alltogether, in terms of the psychology of guards and the things they saw or did or witnessed.
You might even say that female guards, (women supposedly being more maternal by nature) were worse than their male counterparts for their part in it.

Google Oskar Gröning, an SS camp guard who talks about his time in Auschwitz, if you wish to get a slight insight into the mind of a camp guard....well, the mind of the camp guard as he it later.

Oskar Groening who insisted repeatedly and seemingly shamelessly that it hadn't been so bad, he'd enjoyed his work, before finally blurting out his reasons for agreeing to be filmed. He had always refused to talk about Auschwitz even to his own family but now he wanted to give witness against the Holocaust deniers, such as friends at his local philately club, who had insisted the camps were all a lie. That was why he said on film: "I would like you to believe me. I saw the gas chambers. I saw the crematoria. I saw the open fires. I was on the ramp when the selections took place. I would like you to believe that these atrocities happened, because I was there."


Even more horrific, it that can be true, was the earlier T4 program....here is some info on that:
From Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_T4#Gassing


At first patients were killed by lethal injection, the method established for killing children. The method was soon considered too slow and inefficient for killing adults, who needed larger doses of increasingly scarce and expensive drugs, and who were more likely to need restraint. Hitler recommended to Brandt that carbon monoxide gas be used.[60] At his trial, Brandt described this as a "major advance in medical history".[61] The first gassings took place at Brandenburg Euthanasia Centre in January 1940, under the supervision of Widmann, Becker, and Christian Wirth, a Kripo (criminal police) officer who was later to play a prominent role in the "final solution" extermination of the Jews. Viktor Brack was head of these operations. [62]
Once the efficacy of this method was established, it became standardised and was instituted at a number of centres across Germany. In addition to Brandenburg, these included Grafeneck Castle in Baden-Württemberg (10,824 dead), Schloss Hartheim near Linz in Austria (over 8,000 dead), Sonnenstein Euthanasia Centre in Saxony (15,000 dead), Bernburg Euthanasia Centre in Saxony-Anhalt and Hadamar Euthanasia Centre in Hesse (14,494 dead). These centres were also used to kill prisoners transferred from concentration camps in Germany and Austria.
Patients were transferred from their institutions to the killing centres in buses, called the Community Patients Transports Service, operated by teams of SS men wearing white coats, to give an air of medical care.[63] To prevent the families and doctors of the patients from tracing them, the patients were often first sent to transit centres in major hospitals where they were supposedly assessed. They were moved again to "special treatment" (Sonderbehandlung) centres. Families were sent letters explaining that owing to wartime regulations, it was not possible for them to visit relatives in these centres. Most of these patients were killed within 24 hours of arriving at the centres, and their bodies cremated.[60] For every person killed, a death certificate was prepared, giving a false but plausible cause of death. This was sent to the family along with an urn of ashes (random ashes, since the victims were cremated en masse). The preparation of thousands of falsified death certificates took up most of the working day of the doctors who operated the centres.[64]

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

The morals of all sides can be questioned in WWII depending on where you look.

The japanese treatment of prisones of war is very much overlooked in the west, but their treatment of the Chinese was abhorrent