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The British Empire Thread

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    #842
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    10 wrongfully convicted, while the people who knew the real bombers and could therefore have got their cases reviewed, were pretending to campaign for their release.

    "pretending"?

    The people who carried out the bombings confessed after their conviction in 1976. Thats British justice.
    http://www.searcs-web.com/oconn9.html

    If you want to hash it out with more of your usual nauseating apologia, start a thread.


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    #843
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Nodin wrote: »
    "pretending"?

    The people who carried out the bombings confessed after their conviction in 1976. Thats British justice.
    http://www.searcs-web.com/oconn9.html

    If you want to hash it out with more of your usual nauseating apologia, start a thread.

    Yep, pretending.


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    #844
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    Oh I agree. Miscarriage of justice isnt confined to France. And I think we know about british abuse of power and injustice in ireland (and england).

    But honestly would you rather be arrested in Australia or Brazil?

    We even kept their system after independence so that tells you something.

    But it is not just British Justice system is it, the justice system in France Germany Scandanavia etc is just as impartial and fair , so it is not confined to one country .It is a product of magna carta/ the enlightenment/French Revolution/1848/Tom Paine etc etc and it is constantly evolving (occasionally in reverse).

    But to draw any comparision between justice today and that meted out in the colonies I would contend is meaningless, for example the
    Denshawwai Incident Egypt 1906 ( some Irish officers involved here before we get too holier than thou) riddled as it was with racism,class,state policy, was a better example of justice in the colonies (any colonies ,not just British) for the colonised.

    That such an incident could never have happened in England itself in 1906 goes to show that while the system may have been the same ,its implementation was decidedly different.


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    #845
    getz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    british justice in the colonies in the passed, may look very bad in todays enlightened society ,but what is the excuse for irelands justice for its own abused,in this day and age,?,


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    #846
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    10 wrongfully convicted, while the people who knew the real bombers and could therefore have got their cases reviewed, were pretending to campaign for their release.

    Is that Republican justice?
    Republican violence is a reaction to British 'justice'.

    On a personal level, I have known several nationalists interned without trial in the early 1970's. Before been thrown into Long Kesh, their arrest consisted of beatings and mistreatment such as no sleep etc for several days in a British army barracks by the lovely 'Squaddies' who of course are world famous for their sense of fairplay regarding the natives. Still they got paid back in kind - but that's called 'terrorism' of course :rolleyes:

    " They also included people who had never been in the IRA, including Ivan Barr, chairman of the Civil Rights executive, and Michael Farrell. What they did not include was a single Loyalist. Although the UVF had begun the killing and bombing, this organisation was left untouched, as were other violent Loyalist satellite organisations such as Tara, the Shankill Defenders Association and the Ulster Protestant Volunteers. It is known that Faulkner was urged by the British to include a few Protestants in the trawl but he refused. "

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/intern/sum.htm


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    #847
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    PatsytheNazi wrote: »
    Republican violence is a reaction to British 'justice'.

    On a personal level, I have known several nationalists interned without trial in the early 1970's. Before been thrown into Long Kesh, their arrest consisted of beatings and mistreatment such as no sleep etc for several days in a British army barracks by the lovely 'Squaddies' who of course are world famous for their sense of fairplay regarding the natives. Still they got paid back in kind - but that's called 'terrorism' of course :rolleyes:

    " They also included people who had never been in the IRA, including Ivan Barr, chairman of the Civil Rights executive, and Michael Farrell. What they did not include was a single Loyalist. Although the UVF had begun the killing and bombing, this organisation was left untouched, as were other violent Loyalist satellite organisations such as Tara, the Shankill Defenders Association and the Ulster Protestant Volunteers. It is known that Faulkner was urged by the British to include a few Protestants in the trawl but he refused. "

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/intern/sum.htm

    That's terrible. Surely tarring, feathering and hanging from a lamp post is the correct way of doing it? Or maybe a shallow grave in the Wicklow mountains?

    We could turn this into a Pissing contest, or we could just move on.


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    #848
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    That's terrible. Surely tarring, feathering and hanging from a lamp post is the correct way of doing it? Or maybe a shallow grave in the Wicklow mountains?

    We could turn this into a Pissing contest, or we could just move on.
    All ultimately victims of British occupation and the scenario it creates.


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    #849
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    PatsytheNazi wrote: »
    All ultimately victims of British occupation and the scenario it creates.

    And all entitled to 97 virgins when they enter heaven I suppose.


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    #850
    danbohan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    And all entitled to 97 virgins when they enter heaven I suppose.

    your getting mixed up fred , its this Irish air not agreeing with you at all is it , you really will have to talk to that Irish mrs of yours see if she can relocate you to Portsmouth or somewhere where ex cons sorry servicemen can live happily ever after


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    #851
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    danbohan wrote: »
    your getting mixed uip fred , its this Irish air not agreeing with you at all is it , you really will have to talk to that Irish mrs of yours see if she can relocate you to Portsmouth or somewhere where ex cons sorry servicemen can live happily ever after

    What??


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    #852
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    Its always fun reliving the past isnt it?

    Personally I'm still furious with the vikings.

    That the british have abused their own legal system over the years is in no doubt at all.

    We were discussing the legacy of their empire and I still hold that the spread of their legal system is a positive. I supose there's places where a viable indigenous legal system (brehon) was pushed aside but we can only speculate how they would have developed.

    Citing cases of injustice means very little because we recognize them as perversions.


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    #853
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    marienbad wrote: »
    But it is not just British Justice system is it, the justice system in France Germany Scandanavia etc is just as impartial and fair , so it is not confined to one country.

    Well its a fascinating subject. Are they as impartial and fair? There are different rules about guilt and innocence, trials, appeals etc etc.

    The original issue was about the spread of legal systems through empires.

    And my point was that if you visit an ex-portugese colony, or an ex-french colony, how has their legal system implemented by the occupying empire, survived over the years since independance?

    Honestly I dont know the answer but I'm curious.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_systems_of_the_world


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    #854
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    Well its a fascinating subject. Are they as impartial and fair? There are different rules about guilt and innocence, trials, appeals etc etc.

    The original issue was about the spread of legal systems through empires.

    And my point was that if you visit an ex-portugese colony, or an ex-french colony, how has their legal system implemented by the occupying empire, survived over the years since independance?

    Honestly I dont know the answer but I'm curious.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_systems_of_the_world

    I am sure they are as impartial and fair as our own just as open to pressure as ours. In many ways the french inquisatorial system is better than our adversarial system.


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    #855
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    I was watching a tv programme called "locked up abroad", that follows the stories of unfortunates who through their own misadventures (i.e. they're Guilty), end up in prison in third world countries.

    Sort of midnight express documentaries.

    It got me thinking that if I'm going to be arrested with a pound of weed on me i'd rather it was in Barbados than Colombia.


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    #856
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    I was watching a tv programme called "locked up abroad", that follows the stories of unfortunates who through their own misadventures (i.e. they're Guilty), end up in prison in third world countries.

    Sort of midnight express documentaries.

    It got me thinking that if I'm going to be arrested with a pound of weed on me i'd rather it was in Barbados than Colombia.

    I'd agree with you, but that has more to do with the application of the law rather than the system of law I would think. We are so inundated with images of positive images of the adversarial system we assume it is the only system. I am sure the French and others would disagree.


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    #857
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    I was watching a tv programme called "locked up abroad", that follows the stories of unfortunates who through their own misadventures (i.e. they're Guilty), end up in prison in third world countries.

    Sort of midnight express documentaries.

    It got me thinking that if I'm going to be arrested with a pound of weed on me i'd rather it was in Barbados than Colombia.

    And you'd probably not want to be caught three times in the States with a pound of weed.


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    #858
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    brianthebard wrote: »
    And you'd probably not want to be caught three times in the States with a pound of weed.

    True enough. In most states. Although I have no plans as yet...

    The us system of course qualifies as one of those british exports.


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    #859
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    marienbad wrote: »
    I'd agree with you, but that has more to do with the application of the law rather than the system of law I would think.

    yes, true. Although I was also considering that the longevity and level of adoption was an indication of its strength. But of course it also could be affected by the stability of the government..

    I wonder how the cuban legal system changed after fidel took over?

    (starting to veer off topic...sorry)


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    #860
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    True enough. In most states. Although I have no plans as yet...

    The us system of course qualifies as one of those british exports.

    Except in Louisiana where the Napoleonic code and Federal law applies.

    One of the oddities of history left over from the Louisiana purchase


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    #861
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    marienbad wrote: »
    Except in Louisiana where the Napoleonic code and Federal law applies.

    One of the oddities of history left over from the Louisiana purchase

    Oh thats right isnt it.

    Is the "louisana code" actually called the "Napoleonic code"?


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    #862
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    Oh thats right isnt it.

    Is the "louisana code" actually called the "Napoleonic code"?

    Not too sure what it is called, but it is a leftover from the French


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    #863
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Empiring might seem okay if you were doing the empiring probably not so good if you were being empired.

    Sort of like a rapist doing the raping. Damned unpleasant if your being raped mind.


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    #864
    dave2pvd
    Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭dave2pvd


    I am very disappointed.

    It's been 444 posts since the Balkans got a mention.

    Please try harder.


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    #865
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,051 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    If this topic is keeping all this garbage discussion out of the rest of Boards then its serving a very useful purpose. 800...posts, and counting.


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    #866
    alex18
    Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭alex18


    I'd say that we shouldn't be so quick to vilify the British Empire. Now, I'm from the North East coast of Scotland and I have some family in Canada. This is due to the Highland Clearances which - as those of you who study your history will know - were every bit as horrific as the things done in Ireland. Do I hate the English? No, of course I don't. Why? Because there were plenty of Scots involved in the clearances. Just as there were plenty of Irish involved in the various things in Ireland. If you keep looking at this trend you will see that there were plenty of Africans involved in the slave trade.

    Almost everything the British Empire did was a product of its time. However, the British were actually quite forward thinking in some things. After all, they were the first major imperial power to abolish the slave trade. They were the only empire of the day to allow 'colonials' to become officers and senior NCOs in the forces.

    There is a reason why no other empire of the 1800s has anything quite like the Commonwealth of Nations. The French have something similar, but very few ex French colonies find anything good to say about France. It is a vastly different story in British former colonies though. Many commonwealth soldiers fight in the British forces and in several of the countries - such as Serra Leone - there are large political movements for re-integration with the UK.


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    #867
    getz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    alex18 wrote: »
    I'd say that we shouldn't be so quick to vilify the British Empire. Now, I'm from the North East coast of Scotland and I have some family in Canada. This is due to the Highland Clearances which - as those of you who study your history will know - were every bit as horrific as the things done in Ireland. Do I hate the English? No, of course I don't. Why? Because there were plenty of Scots involved in the clearances. Just as there were plenty of Irish involved in the various things in Ireland. If you keep looking at this trend you will see that there were plenty of Africans involved in the slave trade.

    Almost everything the British Empire did was a product of its time. However, the British were actually quite forward thinking in some things. After all, they were the first major imperial power to abolish the slave trade. They were the only empire of the day to allow 'colonials' to become officers and senior NCOs in the forces.

    There is a reason why no other empire of the 1800s has anything quite like the Commonwealth of Nations. The French have something similar, but very few ex French colonies find anything good to say about France. It is a vastly different story in British former colonies though. Many commonwealth soldiers fight in the British forces and in several of the countries - such as Serra Leone - there are large political movements for re-integration with the UK.
    the british ruling class were also sending their own citizens also over seas[australia ect] it did not take enything more that walking over a bridge in london at the wrong time of night to be sent to the colonies ,england like ireland had two many people to feed ,


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