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16-05-2013, 07:50   #1
tac foley
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Destruction of Moore Street

Ladies and Gentlemen - I share with you a national disgrace.

Texas has The Alamo, a place of sacrifice where their hero ancestors gave their lives so that the Great State could be born. It is, rightly, a national shrine.

Ireland, a country born out of blood and sacrifice, will have..........Moore Street Shopping Mall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=AYioUyOSfNE

I really can't think of anything else to say.

tac
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16-05-2013, 14:44   #2
 
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Do we really need yet another shopping centre??
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16-05-2013, 14:47   #3
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What am I missing? That video appears to be about the 1916 rising? Granted I have no sound....
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16-05-2013, 15:17   #4
tac foley
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What am I missing? That video appears to be about the 1916 rising? Granted I have no sound....
Uh, yes. One of the most famous actions of the 1916 Rising took place in Moore Street where a small force of patriots held off a battalion of British troops at great cost of life to both sides, particularly the British.

The developer wishes to raze Moore Street to the ground and to build a shopping mall in its place.

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16-05-2013, 16:34   #5
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Ah sorry, I thought the video was supposed to be about the destruction of Moore street itself and the building of another unnecessary shopping centre..

The only way (and this is a long shot) that this could possibly be a good idea would be for Moore street to be preserved within the shopping centre itself. The whole street preserved, essentially Moore street with a roof.

Can't believe this could go ahead. FX Buckley's alone is history worth saving.
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16-05-2013, 16:40   #6
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This won't be popular, but I think they should level the whole thing.

Honestly the place is falling apart and looks nothing like it did in 1916. Add a condition to the planning permission for the new development so they have to add in some sort of mueseum type thing with possibly some sort of reconstruction or a facade and it's all sorted.

I'm a big fan of preserving old historic buildings but in this case the building in question has been run down over the past 90 odd years.. It's not as if the building itself (last stand of rebels aside) is of any architectural value.
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16-05-2013, 16:55   #7
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This won't be popular, but I think they should level the whole thing.

Honestly the place is falling apart and looks nothing like it did in 1916. Add a condition to the planning permission for the new development so they have to add in some sort of mueseum type thing with possibly some sort of reconstruction or a facade and it's all sorted.

I'm a big fan of preserving old historic buildings but in this case the building in question has been run down over the past 90 odd years.. It's not as if the building itself (last stand of rebels aside) is of any architectural value.
This.

Moore st in 1916 was nothing but the gut of those buildings as houses. If it were still the same today, before they were all converted into shops,which over 90+ yr's has transformed into a rundown, unrecognizable dump, then id be in favor of preserving.

If you know the building itself, no.16, in its current state is/was a clothes shop of some sort. The whole buildings ground floor had been gutted to change to a shop front, from housing. It already doesn't reserve the history in its current form.

I see 2 possible alternatives, restore it completely to its pre 1916 state, and make it into a museum/tour. or go ahead and level it and still place a museum on the spot.
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16-05-2013, 17:00   #8
pedroeibar1
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Originally Posted by tac foley View Post
Ladies and Gentlemen - I share with you a national disgrace.

Texas has The Alamo, a place of sacrifice where their hero ancestors gave their lives so that the Great State could be born. It is, rightly, a national shrine.

Ireland, a country born out of blood and sacrifice, will have..........Moore Street Shopping Mall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=AYioUyOSfNE

I really can't think of anything else to say.

tac
Tac,
What a piece of total BS. Before you think of anything else to say you might first research the topic and obtain a more accurate assessment. Look up ‘Carleton Cinema Development’ for starters.

That film – I watched just the first few minutes – is a piece of badly put together propaganda that is grossly inaccurate. Firstly, despite its resident population of cowboys, Moore St certainly is not the Irish equivalent of the Alamo. Secondly, what is at issue is ONE BUILDING - #16, Moore Street.
Thirdly, back in 1999 Dublin City councillors granted planning permission to build a very large shopping centre bounded by two of the capital’s main streets. Subsequently, in about 2002 they unanimously passed a motion to protect ‘a safe house’ used ONCE by the leaders of the 1916 Rising. The house itself (like all of Moore St.) is of absolutely no architectural merit, it is a typically bland four storey late 19c building. Because it has ‘protected’ status it is sacrosanct and the plans for the development include the preservation and integration of the house. Undeservedly so, there were far more buildings that merit saving because of their 1916 links.

Moore St. primarily was a street trader site; most of the native traders have left or died out. Because of many objections/appeals there has been more than a decade of delay and uncertainty. Short leases have been granted on some shops, others have been closed; Moore St and its surrounding area consequently is a dump, dirty, badly rundown and more like downtown Lagos or Kano than a town in Ireland. How anyone would buy food there is beyond me.

Some of the less daft protesters have produced this http://www.gaelicadventure.org/pdfs/h16.pdf but to their discredit they have not even done basic cleaning/maintenace on the building on which they have a lease!

I support heritage and have been active in several campaigns of merit. In this instance many of the objections & appeals were/are by fringe/nutty or misguided conservationists supported by a few independent politicians (all jumping onto the ‘1916’ bandwagon to get some PR). Because of that there is a large dirty hole for several blocks in the centre of Dublin; it will be years before anything happens to that site. Shame on them all!

Last edited by pedroeibar1; 16-05-2013 at 17:25. Reason: link
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16-05-2013, 18:08   #9
A Disgrace
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There's a lot more to heritage than architecture - there's such a thing as context and surroundings. One only has to look at the plethora of plaques attached to modern office blocks and rebuilds that calim 'such-and-such was born here' - you can't get a feel whatsoever for these places.

This area is very run down, but it is wildly evocative. The lanes are narrow, and you can really imagine the frenzied escape that happened there. You'd stuuggle to get that sense of the history if you were standing in the lingerie aisle of Debenhams.

I see no reason why the existing buildings and warehouses can't be retained, even as shops incorporating the shopping centre. Relay the cobbles (or tear up whatever tarmac that can be to reveal the exisiting ones) fill in the empty plots with modern interventions, but keep the sense of a streetscape. It has the potential to be a mini district in its own right, dotted with historical reference points and still be a viable shoppping area.

The 1916 house should also be retained fully, with the interior restored to its mid-war state (bullet holes, broken down walls, broken furniture)
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16-05-2013, 19:24   #10
tac foley
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Tac, What a piece of total BS.

Thank you, Sir, for your support and constructive comments.

Much appreciated.

tac
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16-05-2013, 19:31   #11
pedroeibar1
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Thank you, Sir, for your support and constructive comments.

Much appreciated.

tac
I call it as I see it. Usually I have a good reason to do so.
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17-05-2013, 09:01   #12
pedroeibar1
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There's a lot more to heritage than architecture - there's such a thing as context and surroundings. One only has to look at the plethora of plaques attached to modern office blocks and rebuilds that calim 'such-and-such was born here' - you can't get a feel whatsoever for these places.
Of course there is more to heritage than architecture; however, architecture is the most tangible part, that which we can see, feel and experience. Most (if not all) relevant buildings in Ireland have preservation orders on them. Moore Street has no architectural merit. In Ireland plaques mostly are on old buildings, very few are on modern ones and invariably relate to people, not historic events. Many of Ireland’s old buildings that were demolished were beyond their lifespan; several hundred others (structurally sound, built heritage) were torched by the colleagues of those you are supporting.

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This area is very run down, but it is wildly evocative. The lanes are narrow, and you can really imagine the frenzied escape that happened there. You'd stuuggle to get that sense of the history if you were standing in the lingerie aisle of Debenhams.
Evocative of what? Poverty? Deprivation? There are a few lanes that have reeked for decades of human waste, the shops are tawdry, the place is a kip. The ‘context’ and surroundings of a 1916 Moore St can never be evoked again, it is like saying that the Somme, Ypres or wherever should be maintained ‘as was’ - a battle site. We are discussing a few houses in Moore Street that have been substantially altered and which - literally - had a few minutes of doubtful glory in their lifespans. They certainly do not now and never will rank among the great symbols of Irish history.

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I see no reason why the existing buildings and warehouses can't be retained, even as shops incorporating the shopping centre. Relay the cobbles (or tear up whatever tarmac that can be to reveal the existing ones) fill in the empty plots with modern interventions, but keep the sense of a streetscape. It has the potential to be a mini district in its own right, dotted with historical reference points and still be a viable shoppping area. The 1916 house should also be retained fully, with the interior restored to its mid-war state (bullet holes, broken down walls, broken furniture
Why retain dross? Several of the Moore St houses have, as a result of objections/appeals and legal action have been protected and are being retained for use as a museum within the proposed development. (No doubt there will be more protests by some other faction over that, as the GPO is also wanted by some for use as a museum and by others as a new location for the Abbey.) Your suggestion of relaying the cobbles,
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the interior restored to its mid-war state (bullet holes, broken down walls, broken furniture
well, that is so Disneyesque you would be more honest to describe what you really want is a theme park. Why not go the whole hog and have re-enactments of shoot-outs twice daily carried out by guys in slouch hats and replica Mausers?
This is 2013; the Carleton site borders one of the city’s two prime shopping streets and also what is (or arguably was) its main thoroughfare. The actions of a bunch of pseudo-historians/preservationists have caused this development to miss the economic boat. This is a stupid discussion; any redevelopment on the Carleton site is most unlikely to happen in decades. Dublin still has one of the highest retail unoccupancy rates allied to some of the highest rents in Europe. The situation is getting worse, not better. If you really care that much about the buildings get onto those who have the lease and suggest that they clean up what they have, remove the s#itty signage /tags and the cheap bunting. Until then it is hard to take any of the ‘protesters’ seriously.
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17-05-2013, 14:01   #13
A Disgrace
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Of course there is more to heritage than architecture; however, architecture is the most tangible part, that which we can see, feel and experience. Most (if not all) relevant buildings in Ireland have preservation orders on them. Moore Street has no architectural merit. In Ireland plaques mostly are on old buildings, very few are on modern ones and invariably relate to people, not historic events. Many of Ireland’s old buildings that were demolished were beyond their lifespan; several hundred others (structurally sound, built heritage) were torched by the colleagues of those you are supporting.

Evocative of what? Poverty? Deprivation? There are a few lanes that have reeked for decades of human waste, the shops are tawdry, the place is a kip. The ‘context’ and surroundings of a 1916 Moore St can never be evoked again, it is like saying that the Somme, Ypres or wherever should be maintained ‘as was’ - a battle site. We are discussing a few houses in Moore Street that have been substantially altered and which - literally - had a few minutes of doubtful glory in their lifespans. They certainly do not now and never will rank among the great symbols of Irish history.

Why retain dross? Several of the Moore St houses have, as a result of objections/appeals and legal action have been protected and are being retained for use as a museum within the proposed development. (No doubt there will be more protests by some other faction over that, as the GPO is also wanted by some for use as a museum and by others as a new location for the Abbey.) Your suggestion of relaying the cobbles, well, that is so Disneyesque you would be more honest to describe what you really want is a theme park. Why not go the whole hog and have re-enactments of shoot-outs twice daily carried out by guys in slouch hats and replica Mausers?
This is 2013; the Carleton site borders one of the city’s two prime shopping streets and also what is (or arguably was) its main thoroughfare. The actions of a bunch of pseudo-historians/preservationists have caused this development to miss the economic boat. This is a stupid discussion; any redevelopment on the Carleton site is most unlikely to happen in decades. Dublin still has one of the highest retail unoccupancy rates allied to some of the highest rents in Europe. The situation is getting worse, not better. If you really care that much about the buildings get onto those who have the lease and suggest that they clean up what they have, remove the s#itty signage /tags and the cheap bunting. Until then it is hard to take any of the ‘protesters’ seriously.
Jaypers, I was only making a suggestion!

I'm too busy to write a detailed reply now, but "torched by the colleagues of those you are supporting" needs an immediate response.

I am not a republican or anything of the sort. I would try and protect anything of value, heritage-wise, in this city - be it a a poets birthplace, a the site of an important scientific discovery or yes, even a 1916 related site. I'm about preserving history, not about making a political stance or supporting a cause. And if I thought this was just a bullish Sinn Fein vanity project, I'd be first to oppose it - but it isn't. It's a nationally important one because it has a huge impact on the built heritage of the whole area (I stick with my 'more than architecture' argument btw), AS WELL as being an important site of national identity. That's two reasons why it needs to be carefully thought out before anything is done with it
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17-05-2013, 16:09   #14
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I'm about preserving history, not about making a political stance or supporting a cause.
This.

It makes no sense to tear down the buildings Its a major part of the story. It doesnt matter what state its currently in.

Why not tear down the gpo and just keep one of the columns with the bullet holes?
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19-05-2013, 14:44   #15
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Ireland, a country born out of blood and sacrifice, will have..........Moore Street Shopping Mall.
But a shopping mall would be the ideal monument, to show the development of the Irish State from the Easter Rising to the Celtic Tiger. And all in one building.
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