Do men ever read women authors and vice versa?

Woke Hogan · 24-02-2020 6:05pm

Sleepy wrote: »

Of course, the Guardian are all over Marian Keyes after she kicked this nonsense back into the spotlight a few weeks ago...

Jesus Christ what a load codswallop.

Arghus · 24-02-2020 6:09pm

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Yeah, he’s great for using large font and generous line spacing.

Ah, now, whatever about the veracity of his remarks about whether he has never written a female character - I don't know if he has ever said that, he does have female characters in his novels, though usually in secondary roles - Cormac McCarthy is unquestionably one of the greatest living novelists. They'll be reading his books in a hundred years. If you're proclaiming yourself to be somewhat knowledgeable about literature that's a stunningly uninformed comment.

I said way, way back near the start of the thread that I don't care about the gender of the author when choosing to read a book. And I don't, the gender of the author does not matter to me, but, having said that, if I was to tott up the percentage of male to female author's who I have read over the years then my read library would definitely be 75% male. It's not a conscious decision I make and I've read many great female author's over the years - Jane Austen, George Eliot, Patricia Highsmith, Margret Atwood, Iris Murdoch, Edith Wharton - but I tend to pick up more books that happen to be written by men.

Greyfox · 24-02-2020 6:13pm

Deleted User wrote: »

TBF, the Harry Potter series wasn't that well written either. The quality of writing went up and down often depending on the book. The idea and scope of her imagination was excellent, but in terms of writing? It was aimed at young teens where such considerations aren't so important. It was the movie productions that made her such a best seller.

I disagree, all 7 books are well written. Also she didn't aim the books at young teens which is why so many adults have read them. She wrote the books with everyone in mind. Now when the marketing people got involved they made the wise decision to market them towards kids but this gives some adults the incorrect impression that their for kids. She was a bestseller before the first film was made, the films just turned her from bestseller to Billionaire

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 24-02-2020 6:23pm

Arghus wrote: »

Ah, now, whatever about the veracity of his remarks about whether he has never written a female character - I don't know if he has ever said that, he does have female characters in his novels, though usually in secondary roles - Cormac McCarthy is unquestionably one of the greatest living novelists. They'll be reading his books in a hundred years. If you're proclaiming yourself to be somewhat knowledgeable about literature that's a stunningly uninformed comment.

I can't see all of McCarthy's output standing the test of time, but Blood Meridian is one of the best novels written in the second half of the twentieth century, and one of the best American novels ever. It will definitely be around for a long time to come.

Ipso · 24-02-2020 6:25pm

I've tried Bejewelled with Kisses, by Polly Clark. Not very male orientated.

Sleepy · 24-02-2020 6:34pm

Greyfox wrote: »

I disagree, all 7 books are well written. Also she didn't aim the books at young teens which is why so many adults have read them. She wrote the books with everyone in mind. Now when the marketing people got involved they made the wise decision to market them towards kids but this gives some adults the incorrect impression that their for kids. She was a bestseller before the first film was made, the films just turned her from bestseller to Billionaire

Ah now, I think it's transparently obvious that the books are written for children: they literally use more complex language with each book. I thought it was always acknowledged that she wrote the books to be so: to age in their use of language with the reader in my mind: and that the reader in her mind was her own daughter as she aged from 11 up.

You're right that the books were an absolute smash in publishing terms far before the movies were made though. The movies pushed them from being a publishing success to being a global phenomenon but from Goblet of Fire on (which came out before the first film) there were midnight release parties and first print runs numbered in millions of copies.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 24-02-2020 7:13pm

Sleepy wrote: »

Ah now, I think it's transparently obvious that the books are written for children: they literally use more complex language with each book. I thought it was always acknowledged that she wrote the books to be so: to age in their use of language with the reader in my mind: and that the reader in her mind was her own daughter as she aged from 11 up.

That was Rowling's plan, but it doesn't work out that way in practice now that all the books are available simultaneously. Our 11-year-old got the Harry Potter box set, and as soon as she was finished with the first book, she wanted to read the next, and so on.

24-02-2020 7:16pm

Ah..I totally didn't know that about the Harry Potter..I bought them for my niece a couple of years ago, and she always kind of struggled to get past about half way through them..she's only 11..

Greyfox · 24-02-2020 7:41pm

Sleepy wrote: »

Ah now, I think it's transparently obvious that the books are written for children

Absolute bullsh*t, the books are full of themes that appeal to adults and the later books get darker. Rowling herself has said she didnt aim the books specifically for children.

Woke Hogan · 24-02-2020 8:13pm

Greyfox wrote: »

Absolute bullsh*t, the books are full of themes that appeal to adults and the later books get darker. Rowling herself has said she didnt aim the books specifically for children.

Mate, they’re kids books.

jam_mac_jam · 24-02-2020 8:35pm

Greyfox wrote: »

Absolute bullsh*t, the books are full of themes that appeal to adults and the later books get darker. Rowling herself has said she didnt aim the books specifically for children.

They are children's books. Good children's books but written for children. A parent could enjoy reading it for a child but that doesn't make it a book for an adult.

Greyfox · 24-02-2020 8:36pm

Woke Hogan wrote: »

Mate, they’re kids books.

Yeah and the tooth fairy is real.

The Harry Potter books deal with lots of adult stuff including cold blooded murder, torture, racism, death, abuse of power and fear. The first book maybe but things get much darker once Voldemort returns.

Greyfox · 24-02-2020 8:38pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

A parent could enjoy reading it for a child but that doesn't make it a book for an adult.

I hate to break it to you but millions of adults have enjoyed reading the books on their own.

jam_mac_jam · 24-02-2020 8:40pm

Greyfox wrote: »

Yeah and the tooth fairy is real.

The Harry Potter books deal with lots of adult stuff including cold blooded murder, torture, racism, death, abuse of power and fear. The first book maybe but things get much darker once Voldemort returns.

Dr suess dealt with racism. Red riding hood has a murder. Loads of torture in roald dayl books. There are loads of dark themes in kids books.

jam_mac_jam · 24-02-2020 8:41pm

Greyfox wrote: »

I hate to break it to you but millions of adults have enjoyed reading the books on their own.

Thats nice but they are children's books. Loads of adults read ya books as well doesn't mean it's an adult book.

I like mulan and the lion king. They are still children's films.

Arghus · 24-02-2020 8:41pm

They are young adult books at a push. The first two are indisputably children's books, they become darker and more complex after that but they never truly become "adult" literature. That's not a slight on them. They are what they are and people of all ages can enjoy them.

24-02-2020 8:42pm

Greyfox wrote: »

I hate to break it to you but millions of "adults" have enjoyed reading the books on their own.

..

Woke Hogan · 24-02-2020 8:44pm

Greyfox wrote: »

Yeah and the tooth fairy is real.

The Harry Potter books deal with lots of adult stuff including cold blooded murder, torture, racism, death, abuse of power and fear. The first book maybe but things get much darker once Voldemort returns.

Pretty much every children’s adventure stories deal with topics like those. The Harry Potter books are fantasy books for kids about a boy destined to be man’s greatest hero.

Truly adult themes would deal with things like the death of a spouse or seeing your child get sick, or worrying about paying bills after you’re made redundant. Real adult worries where there’s often no real bad guy and the protagonist isn’t necessarily “the good guy.” Complex characters in difficult situations out of their control.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 24-02-2020 8:50pm

Greyfox wrote: »

I hate to break it to you but millions of adults have enjoyed reading the books on their own.

Around half of "young adult" books are read by adults, so no surprises there.

I believe Rowling wrote the books so that the child reader would identify with the main characters, Harry, Ron, and Hermione. They start Hogwarts when they are 11 years old, and by the end of the series they are 17. So that's the readership she's aiming for — preteens through late teens — but that doesn't mean older people can't enjoy the stories as well.

The Hunger Games trilogy was also written for young adults but contains themes that are even darker than in Harry Potter.

24-02-2020 8:59pm

I mainly read non fiction, which tends to be mostly male authors. However Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali (a Somali woman) is hands down one of the best autobiographies I've ever read.

I have an autobiography of a woman journalist waiting to be read so that will make two.

Can't stand chick lit.

Redneck Reject71 · 24-02-2020 9:03pm

I have read a few crime books that had male names as the author. Only to find they were pseudonames from female authors.

TheValeyard · 24-02-2020 9:06pm

Roselyn Billions Puffball wrote: »

Around half of "young adult" books are read by adults, so no surprises there.

I believe Rowling wrote the books so that the child reader would identify with the main characters, Harry, Ron, and Hermione. They start Hogwarts when they are 11 years old, and by the end of the series they are 17. So that's the readership she's aiming for — preteens through late teens — but that doesn't mean older people can't enjoy the stories as well.

The Hunger Games trilogy was also written for young adults but contains themes that are even darker than in Harry Potter.

Pretty sure nearly all school kids read 'to Kill a Mockingbird' at some stage also.

nthclare · 24-02-2020 9:08pm

I learned to read newspapers by reading Dr Ruth when I was around 11

Very insightful and prepared me for the real world

Woke Hogan · 24-02-2020 9:10pm

Greyfox wrote: »

Yeah and the tooth fairy is real.

The Harry Potter books deal with lots of adult stuff including cold blooded murder, torture, racism, death, abuse of power and fear. The first book maybe but things get much darker once Voldemort returns.

Do you actually still believe in the tooth fairy?

Greyfox · 24-02-2020 9:46pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I like mulan and the lion king. They are still children's films.

The Lion king was also made in such a way that it appealed to adults also, just like the Harry Potter books as well as pretty much all of Disney/Pixar.

Roselyn Billions Puffball wrote: »

The Hunger Games trilogy was also written for young adults but contains themes that are even darker than in Harry Potter.

In fairness the hunger games has some adult themes. It shows the horror of war and what happens when we get desensitized towards seeing people die on tv

Woke Hogan wrote: »

Do you actually still believe in the tooth fairy?

No but I believe great stories are great stories regardless of what section the stories are put it. Who a story is meant for isn't important as long as you can relate to the characters.

Conall Cernach · 24-02-2020 9:54pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

They are children's books. Good children's books but written for children. A parent could enjoy reading it for a child but that doesn't make it a book for an adult.

I don't find them particularly well written even for children's books. The world is wildly inconsistent and plot holes abound. Enid Blyton could knock out better on a wet weekend.

There are many much better children's fantasy authors out there who remain virtually unheard of Alan Garner, Susan Cooper etc.

Hangdogroad · 24-02-2020 11:32pm

Has anyone here read Marion Keyes? I'm kind of put off by the fact that she looks incredibly annoying

Woke Hogan · 25-02-2020 7:45am

Greyfox wrote: »

The Lion king was also made in such a way that it appealed to adults also, just like the Harry Potter books as well as pretty much all of Disney/Pixar.

In fairness the hunger games has some adult themes. It shows the horror of war and what happens when we get desensitized towards seeing people die on tv

No but I believe great stories are great stories regardless of what section the stories are put it. Who a story is meant for isn't important as long as you can relate to the characters.

You were in here last night saying they’re not children’s books, now you’re saying it doesn’t matter who they’re for. You’re talking hogwash, mate.

Greyfox · 25-02-2020 8:33am

Woke Hogan wrote: »

You were in here last night saying they’re not children’s books, now you’re saying it doesn’t matter who they’re for. You’re talking hogwash, mate.

Yes and I can say both. Their not just children's books as they deal with themes and plots that appeal to adults. When I say it doesn't matter who their for what I'm saying is if a book is a great book the fact that they sit in the young adult section doesn't change this.

Woke Hogan · 25-02-2020 8:51am

Greyfox wrote: »

Yes and I can say both. Their not just children's books as they deal with themes and plots that appeal to adults. When I say it doesn't matter who their for what I'm saying is if a book is a great book the fact that they sit in the young adult section doesn't change this.

They sit in the “young adult” section because young adults buy them, usually in a different cover because they’re (rightly) embarrassed to be seen in public reading kids books.

Sleepy · 25-02-2020 1:21pm

Greyfox wrote: »

Absolute bullsh*t, the books are full of themes that appeal to adults and the later books get darker. Rowling herself has said she didnt aim the books specifically for children.

She's also stated that she wrote them for her daughter and intended them to age with her. Nevertheless, a quick glance at the awards for the first book in the series would tell you pretty quickly that it was a Children's book:

Nestlé Smarties Book Prize 1997 Gold Medal 9–11 years
FCBG Children’s Book Award 1997 Overall winner in Longer Novel Category
Birmingham Cable Children’s Book Award 1997
Young Telegraph Paperback of the Year 1998
British Book Awards 1997 Children’s Book of the Year
Sheffield Children’s Book Award 1998

Of course, Everything written by Roald Dahl and Tolkien were childrens books too. Star Wars, Toy Story and My Neighbour Totoro are kids films. Doesn't mean you can't enjoy any of them as an adult (and I had no problem enjoying the Harry Potter series as a twenty-something - I did scoff at those hiding behind the pretence of the "adult version" covers though).

Roselyn Billions Puffball wrote: »

The Hunger Games trilogy was also written for young adults but contains themes that are even darker than in Harry Potter.

That one I've had to warn colleagues about: most already knew about the brutal murders etc. but most were unaware of sub-plot involving enforced prostitution. And in our funny old society, it's obviously worse to be raped than murdered :rolleyes:

conorhal · 25-02-2020 2:16pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Its different. JK's market was not a literary one. She wasn't going to be nominated for the booker prize. Also those writers haven't sold as much.

I would wager if Zadie Smith was a white guy writing her material she might have sold a lot more.

The literary world got behind them also.

I mean Zadie Smiths net worth is only about 100,000.

They have the literary success but not the commercial success.

If i were a writer (which i would love to be) i would chose a waspish male name.

I would so sell out!

This is some 'wage gap' tier nonsense. Anybody that knows a lick about the publishing industry knows it's (especially over the last decade) overwhelmingly controled and gate kept by women.
In the US the top publishers staff are nearly 80% white and female. Same goes for library services.

It's vastly easier for women writing chick lit and trash YA novels to see publication then it is for male authors to get published.
The 'wine aunts' have publishing sewn up and pretending that women are descriminated against by anything other then taste is just nonsense.

And as for the Harry Potter back and forth... oy vey! There's a reason that the 'read another book' meme exists.

28-02-2020 1:55am

Saw Anne Enright on Newsnight tonight. Booker prize winning Irish author. Couldn't name one of her books so looked them up and, call me a rampant mysogynist but I'm fairly certain I would not enjoy any of her books.
I think the nub of the thread here is that in the main, women write for women and men write for men.

EmmetSpiceland · 28-02-2020 2:33am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Saw Anne Enright on Newsnight tonight. Booker prize winning Irish author. Couldn't name one of her books so looked them up and, call me a rampant mysogynist but I'm fairly certain I would not enjoy any of her books.
I think the nub of the thread here is that in the main, women write for women and men write for men.

Nonsense, not enjoying a certain author’s work doesn’t make you a misogynist. Enright writes boring twaddle, an opinion based solely on her output.

I would equally dismiss John Banville’s ‘The Sea’ as I would Enright’s ‘The Gathering’. Two boring, boring, works of “celebrated” authors.

Just because one woman’s work doesn’t appeal to you does not mean there aren’t many others out there who’s would.

Silly to dismiss the works of every female author based on authors appearance on “Newsnight”. Very silly indeed.

And, to be honest, I’ve always found Enright comes across as a much more interesting person in her interviews, and appearances, then her work let’s on.

28-02-2020 8:24am

Deleted User wrote: »

Saw Anne Enright on Newsnight tonight. Booker prize winning Irish author. Couldn't name one of her books so looked them up and, call me a rampant mysogynist but I'm fairly certain I would not enjoy any of her books.
I think the nub of the thread here is that in the main, women write for women and men write for men.

Rubbish. Authors write for genres, and within those genres, there are sub-genres for those who care about such things. Both the style of writing and the content is important.

I have absolutely no interest in reading about the fictional lives of women in the 1800s of Ireland, with their trials and tribulations, or their loves. Which is an area that is more likely to be written by a woman than a man. The genders typically have different interests in what to write or read... but it's by genre/content rather than gender specific.

If you wanted books dealing with misogyny, you could find them... Just as you can find sexism against females, or misandry.. If there's a market for it (which there usually is), someone will have written about it.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 28-02-2020 11:03am

I'm looking forward to reading Hilary Mantel's The Mirror & the Light, which comes out shortly (all 900 pages of it). Her Wolf Hall and Bring Up the Bodies were amazing.

fattymuatty · 28-02-2020 11:42am

Sleepy wrote: »

Of course, Everything written by Roald Dahl and Tolkien were childrens books too.
:

Are you joking here? Did you ever read My Uncle Oswald, not a bedtime story for children

Quantum Erasure · 28-02-2020 12:38pm

fattymuatty wrote: »

Are you joking here? Did you ever read My Uncle Oswald, not a bedtime story for children

I'd recommend his short stories as well,

JohnnyFlash · 28-02-2020 12:55pm

I don’t know what’s worse - the dudes pretending they read books by female authors, or the dudes getting angry because it’s being pointed out to them that men don’t tend to read books by female authors.

Quantum Erasure · 28-02-2020 12:59pm

i find it hard to read women, in general like...

28-02-2020 2:05pm

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

I don’t know what’s worse - the dudes pretending they read books by female authors, or the dudes getting angry because it’s being pointed out to them that men don’t tend to read books by female authors.

Or the dudes who claim to care what gender wrote a book... :rolleyes:

EmmetSpiceland · 28-02-2020 2:38pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Or the dudes who claim to care what gender wrote a book... :rolleyes:

Haha, good man, K. That lad paints himself as some sort of god to women, a real “lothario”. Thinks he understands them because of all the Grub Smith articles he’s read.

But I doubt he understands them, or what they need, at all. In fact, I’d say he’s all teeth and thumbs, you know, a real “two-stroke” merchant.

Greyfox · 28-02-2020 3:07pm

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

I don’t know what’s worse - the dudes pretending they read books by female authors, or the dudes getting angry because it’s being pointed out to them that men don’t tend to read books by female authors.

I think your post is very naive. If you like a certain genre, for example thriller, true crime or scfi/fantasy theirs good books out their written by women in your genre. Avoiding a book due to it been written by a woman is an incredibly silly thing to do.

28-02-2020 3:09pm

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Haha, good man, K. That lad paints himself as some sort of god to women, a real “lothario”. Thinks he understands them because of all the Grub Smith articles he’s read.

But I doubt he understands them, or what they need, at all. In fact, I’d say he’s all teeth and thumbs, you know, a real “two-stroke” merchant.

Most of us are bound by our experience, and that others' experience/perception rarely relates to our own lives. He'll figure that out eventually.

creditcarder · 28-02-2020 3:54pm

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Nonsense, not enjoying a certain author’s work doesn’t make you a misogynist. Enright writes boring twaddle, an opinion based solely on her output.

I would equally dismiss John Banville’s ‘The Sea’ as I would Enright’s ‘The Gathering’. Two boring, boring, works of “celebrated” authors.

Just because one woman’s work doesn’t appeal to you does not mean there aren’t many others out there who’s would.

Silly to dismiss the works of every female author based on authors appearance on “Newsnight”. Very silly indeed.

And, to be honest, I’ve always found Enright comes across as a much more interesting person in her interviews, and appearances, then her work let’s on.

He has a point. A lot of females would baulk at writing racist fiction (and female dominated ya is tearing itself apart over this), while a lot of men would baulk at writing nancy boy fiction.

Imo, he does have a point in some ways.

EmmetSpiceland · 28-02-2020 4:00pm

creditcarder wrote: »

He has a point. A lot of females would baulk at writing racist fiction (and female dominated ya is tearing itself apart over this), while a lot of men would baulk at writing nancy boy fiction.

Imo, he does have a point in some ways.

Harper Lee made her name writing “racist” fiction.

There was a lot of “man on man” action in the original draft of Kerouac’s ‘On the Road’.

I don’t believe your point “holds water”, C.

28-02-2020 4:15pm

creditcarder wrote: »

He has a point. A lot of females would baulk at writing racist fiction (and female dominated ya is tearing itself apart over this), while a lot of men would baulk at writing nancy boy fiction.

Imo, he does have a point in some ways.

Not really. You'll find authors of both genders either committed or who dabble in genres which are dominated by their opposite gender. Roger Sanderson published to the Mills & boon romance novels, under his wifes' name initially but it's pretty common knowledge now. The idea that women won't write novels which contain racist overtones doesn't bear out since Enid Blyton did so, along some others.

And then there's all the authors who don't make it big, get a few thousand copies published, and end up relegated to the back walls. There's bound to be plenty of women in there from backgrounds which encouraged racism, or other isms. Or males who published expressly for female audiences, following stereotypical themes.

As for his point... I'm not sure what was the point TBH.

EmmetSpiceland · 28-02-2020 4:24pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As for his point... I'm not sure what was the point TBH.

Agreed, K. Can’t say I liked the use of the term “nancy boy” either.

Good song by Placebo though. Toe tapping.

creditcarder · 28-02-2020 4:52pm

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Agreed, K. Can’t say I liked the use of the term “nancy boy” either.

Good song by Placebo though. Toe tapping.0

Really? I have a strange fondness for that word.

Anyway, I will stand by what I said and say that men do think what men think before writing and womn do think about what women think before writing. I would be more worreid about mens' opionons that women's imo and I imagine that changes what is being writtne.

28-02-2020 5:01pm

creditcarder wrote: »

Really? I have a strange fondness for that word.

Anyway, I will stand by what I said and say that men do think what men think before writing and womn do think about what women think before writing. I would be more worreid about mens' opionons that women's imo and I imagine that changes what is being writtne.

So, men write this and women write that?

That there is a difference in how either gender write? Well, yes... there would be. Or I'm horribly confused right now as to where this thread has gone.

Do men ever read women authors and vice versa?

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