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Shed/Mancave

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  • 16-04-2019 8:03pm
    #1
    Shedmanstyle
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭


    So, I have decided to build a mancave.

    Reasons:
    Partly out of necessity for a little more storage and partly, well for a place to get away.
    I’m interested in Arduino electronics and astronomy. To compliment the Arduino, I have a small printer to make enclosures and working prototypes. All this is taking up unnecessary space in a small cottage.

    I’m not totally new to DIY, I built a playhouse last year for the little lad. It was one month of hard work. The only power tools I had at the time were a mitre saw and a cordless drill. It worked out pretty well for a first attempt at construction!

    So the mancave. I’d looked at a lot of plans online and spotted a nice design that was 20x24ft. Nice until I marked it out in the garden…nearly bigger than my house. I have decided on a 24x9ft which is more appropriate. I’ll explain where the 9ft came from in later posts.

    The scope of this project:

    • Size 24x9ft (See underneath for a caveat).
    • Timber construction.
    • Concrete slab base.
    • Apex felt roof – loft below which is small but enough to store a few bits.
    • Fully insulated.
    • Interior floor is ply covered with salvaged laminate flooring (possibly)
    • Interior walls, ply or plasterboard skimmed.
    • Power supply – I estimate 2kw max but need advice here.
    • Heating – Was hoping for a wood burning stove but open to advice for H+S reasons.
    • Cost: c.4k (I’m salvaging where I can. Already picked up 12 roof trusses for €180)

    On the 24x9 size – I want an offshoot for an observatory. It will be a geodesic dome sitting on a approximately 8ftx8ft base that is 8 ft tall. The dome is partly made as in I have a few of the shapes cut out from plans I bought. It needs to be motorised to rotate with the scope – I’m still working on that part of the design.

    The timeline for this is not short. If I have it complete by the end of the year it will be an achievement, I’m doing 99% of the work myself. I’ll post progress as I go along but there won’t be much happening for the next few weeks unless I get a burst of madness.
    I read with great interest the brilliant thread by Lumen about his project. I can’t afford that sort of an outlay, however with the right planning, I will get this in on budget with a decent finish.

    What do I want from you guys? Advice. I’m an amateur. Pick holes in my design plans, tell me a better way to do it that will hopefully keep me in budget. Pick out any flaws in the design itself based on your own experience.

    I’m still very much in the planning stage so it’s all open to change (bar the 9ft roof span and 4k budget)


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    #2
    Shedmanstyle
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭Shedmanstyle


    Doing a little more research here and have a conundrum.

    I'd planned a concrete base and to sit the shed on it. But when I read into it more, airflow is important underneath to prevent damp and rot. So an alternative is to sit the base on patio slabs of which I have loads and forget the concrete altogether. I was considering using maybe three 4 (3)x4 treated skids sitting on the slabs. Any thoughts?


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    #3
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,016 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Shedmanstyle wrote: »
    I'd planned a concrete base and to sit the shed on it. But when I read into it more, airflow is important underneath to prevent damp and rot. So an alternative is to sit the base on patio slabs of which I have loads and forget the concrete altogether. I was considering using maybe three 4 (3)x4 treated skids sitting on the slabs. Any thoughts?

    Airflow is important underneath the suspended wooden floor of a heated space, but I don't think that's really what you're proposing.

    If you have reasonably level ground, I would start with an insulated slab, raised from ground level so that you have no timber in ground contact, possibly with a rebate (if that's the right word) around the edge on to which you lay the sole plate, with a sheet of DPC between the two. Sort out drainage around the perimeter, finished with gravel, with a fall to a proper drain or soak pit, so that there's no possible issue with water ingress. Then from a water perspective you only have to think about splashing off the gravel on to your external finish.

    Alternatively, build a knee wall around the outside with a conventional DPC and then timber frame on top of that.

    Thresholds are hard, except you aren't aiming for a habitable space so don't need them to be level, so can have a step up and over, which makes the water ingress much easier to prevent.

    Think about windows and door early! People say that your stud walls should be conventional dimensions (e.g. 600mm centres) to make the racking (OSB) easier, but IMO that's questionable. Stud walls are super easy to make, so better to just get some secondhand windows and doors and build the walls around them.

    In a house build you'd want services (e.g. electrics, plumbing) to go through the slab, but you don't mention plumbing and electrics can just go up and through the stud wall instead of complicating the stab.

    Think about external finish.


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    #4
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Lumen wrote: »
    Airflow is important underneath the suspended wooden floor of a heated space, but I don't think that's really what you're proposing.

    If you have reasonably level ground, I would start with an insulated slab, raised from ground level so that you have no timber in ground contact, possibly with a rebate (if that's the right word) around the edge on to which you lay the sole plate, with a sheet of DPC between the two. Sort out drainage around the perimeter, finished with gravel, with a fall to a proper drain or soak pit, so that there's no possible issue with water ingress. Then from a water perspective you only have to think about splashing off the gravel on to your external finish.

    Alternatively, build a knee wall around the outside with a conventional DPC and then timber frame on top of that.

    Thresholds are hard, except you aren't aiming for a habitable space so don't need them to be level, so can have a step up and over, which makes the water ingress much easier to prevent.

    Think about windows and door early! People say that your stud walls should be conventional dimensions (e.g. 600mm centres) to make the racking (OSB) easier, but IMO that's questionable. Stud walls are super easy to make, so better to just get some secondhand windows and doors and build the walls around them.

    In a house build you'd want services (e.g. electrics, plumbing) to go through the slab, but you don't mention plumbing and electrics can just go up and through the stud wall instead of complicating the stab.

    Think about external finish.

    Was this about you this week. How's your shed going?


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    #5
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    How tall is this item. Does it need planning permission?


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    #6
    Wabbit Ears
    Registered Users Posts: 3,043 ✭✭✭Wabbit Ears


    I was gonna do the same after being shocked by the price of what I wanted ( to build a photostudio) from the likes of steel tech etc.

    Ended up talking to a lad in malone sheds who was brilliant. Fully insulated kingspan shed built to my specs of a higher roof etc for half of the price of a steeltech one. I had to put in a concrete base and he did the rest. Re-used old laminate flooring.

    Shed was 4.5k. 4mx5m with PVC door, a steel door and pvc window. probably spent 500 on the concrete floor ( in hindsight should have gotten one big roro skip and hired a man with a digger for the day as well as a truck of pre done concrete instead of 3 smaller skips and a lot of digging with a spade and hire of a mixer over 3 weekends). Electrics run from the house via armoured cable, new fuse box and outlets were another 350 parts and labour.


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    #7
    Shedmanstyle
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭Shedmanstyle


    pwurple wrote: »
    How tall is this item. Does it need planning permission?

    No, it's approx 3 metres tall and complies with all regulations for a shed/garage.


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    #8
    Shedmanstyle
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭Shedmanstyle


    Lumen wrote: »
    Airflow is important underneath the suspended wooden floor of a heated space, but I don't think that's really what you're proposing.

    If you have reasonably level ground, I would start with an insulated slab, raised from ground level so that you have no timber in ground contact, possibly with a rebate (if that's the right word) around the edge on to which you lay the sole plate, with a sheet of DPC between the two. Sort out drainage around the perimeter, finished with gravel, with a fall to a proper drain or soak pit, so that there's no possible issue with water ingress. Then from a water perspective you only have to think about splashing off the gravel on to your external finish.

    Alternatively, build a knee wall around the outside with a conventional DPC and then timber frame on top of that.

    Thresholds are hard, except you aren't aiming for a habitable space so don't need them to be level, so can have a step up and over, which makes the water ingress much easier to prevent.

    Think about windows and door early! People say that your stud walls should be conventional dimensions (e.g. 600mm centres) to make the racking (OSB) easier, but IMO that's questionable. Stud walls are super easy to make, so better to just get some secondhand windows and doors and build the walls around them.

    In a house build you'd want services (e.g. electrics, plumbing) to go through the slab, but you don't mention plumbing and electrics can just go up and through the stud wall instead of complicating the stab.

    Think about external finish.

    Thanks Lumen, when you say insulated slab what do you mean? Do you mean insulate like you would the floor of a house?
    On the windows and doors I plan to salvage for free what I can ! Adverts is great for free stuff once it's somewhat local. I have no plans for plumbing and yes I plan the electrics through the stud. I'm going to run the power supply from the house and still seeking guidance on that element.


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    #9
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,016 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Shedmanstyle wrote: »
    Thanks Lumen, when you say insulated slab what do you mean? Do you mean insulate like you would the floor of a house?
    On the windows and doors I plan to salvage for free what I can ! Adverts is great for free stuff once it's somewhat local. I have no plans for plumbing and yes I plan the electrics through the stud. I'm going to run the power supply from the house and still seeking guidance on that element.

    I mean rigid insulation between the slab and the aggregate underneath. You end up with energy efficiency and thermal mass to even out temperature changes, like external insulation over block but for your floor, and you don't lose head height.


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    #10
    Shedmanstyle
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭Shedmanstyle


    Lumen wrote: »
    I mean rigid insulation between the slab and the aggregate underneath. You end up with energy efficiency and thermal mass to even out temperature changes, like external insulation over block but for your floor, and you don't lose head height.

    I understand now thanks.

    I'm going to consider a knee height block base with DPC.
    So I'd need to put in a foundation and footings with DPC before I lay probably two rows?

    This would bring me an extra advantage in that I could used the same 8ft studded walls but have a little extra height for loft access, if that makes sense. I need to check the regs to see if that's allowed as I'm close to the 3metre limit already and don't plan on slating or tiling to get the extra metre allowed.

    It's at the back of my garden in the middle of nowhere and nobody can or will see it from the road, and I guess I could always tile or slate in the future.


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    #11
    Tow
    Registered Users Posts: 6,605 ✭✭✭Tow


    Sounds like your roof is pitched, if so the height limit is 4m.

    5. The height of any such structure shall not exceed, in the case of a building with a tiled or slated pitched roof, 4 metres or, in any other case, 3 meters.

    When is the money (including lost growth) Michael Noonan took in the Pension Levy going to be paid back?



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    #12
    Shedmanstyle
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭Shedmanstyle


    Tow wrote: »
    Sounds like your roof is pitched, if so the height limit is 4m.

    5. The height of any such structure shall not exceed, in the case of a building with a tiled or slated pitched roof, 4 metres or, in any other case, 3 meters.

    Yes, but I had not planned on tiling or slating, at this point. So strictly speaking I'm restricted to 3 metres?

    Edit: I've just done the first drafts of a CAD drawing and height is 3.9 metres.


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    #13
    Shedmanstyle
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭Shedmanstyle


    First draft in CAD of the skeleton. No windows or provision for doors. I'm just trying to get a feel for the amount of material involved and how I can best utilise it, so many changes to be made still.


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    #14
    Shedmanstyle
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭Shedmanstyle


    Went to look at the roof trusses today and when there managed to pick up a door frame that was made to the wrong size plus a mountain of insulation offcuts to insulate the slab should I go that route. All free.


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    #15
    Tow
    Registered Users Posts: 6,605 ✭✭✭Tow


    Shedmanstyle wrote: »
    Yes, but I had not planned on tiling or slating, at this point. So strictly speaking I'm restricted to 3 metres?

    Edit: I've just doe the first drafts of a CAD drawing and height is 3.9 metres.

    I wonder if they count those strips of felt tiles as 'tiles'. It all depends on the neighbors complaining.

    My next door neighbors built the same style shed across the end of their back garden. Problem was it exceeded the 25sqm. I did not worry as it set a precedent, when/if I come to build my own. Their other neighbors complained, so the planning inspector arrived when it was half built. 'She' claimed the 25Sqm was total exterior area, in contradiction to internal area as per all other planning exempt regulation :confused: Left them with the options of applying for planning or reducing the size. They ended up chopping of about 25% of the length. Builder was not happy, as far as he was concerned the limit was 25 sqm. internal. It then also ended up the slate tiles, which the builder had left over from another job.

    When is the money (including lost growth) Michael Noonan took in the Pension Levy going to be paid back?



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    #16
    Shedmanstyle
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭Shedmanstyle


    Tow wrote: »
    I wonder if they count those strips of felt tiles as 'tiles'. It all depends on the neighbors complaining.

    My next door neighbors built the same style shed across the end of their back garden. Problem was it exceeded the 25sqm. I did not worry as it set a precedent, when/if I come to build my own. Their other neighbors complained, so the planning inspector arrived when it was half built. 'She' claimed the 25Sqm was total exterior area, in contradiction to internal area as per all other planning exempt regulation :confused: Left them with the options of applying for planning or reducing the size. They ended up chopping of about 25% of the length. Builder was not happy, as far as he was concerned the limit was 25 sqm. internal. It then also ended up the slate tiles, which the builder had left over from another job.


    Thankfully I only have one great neighbour and I cleared this with him weeks ago. His words were "one of the advantages of living in the country is you can build stuff like that with no problems" That said, as much as I can I will stick to the rules!


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    #17
    Shedmanstyle
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭Shedmanstyle


    Roof trusses arrived today. 6 of the 12 I got are shown in the picture.

    Unfortunately I'm still a bit away from a completed design, and the width of the shed will be controlled by the trusses. Hopefully by the end of May I will be ready to start. I definitely need to draw up a project plan to make sure this gets finished by the end of the year!


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    #18
    pnecilcaser
    Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭pnecilcaser


    Any more updates for us? Hope the work is going well


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    #19
    Shedmanstyle
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭Shedmanstyle


    pnecilcaser wrote: »
    Any more updates for us? Hope the work is going well

    All quiet at the moment. I have exams at the moment and a few assignments due at the end of the month so it's been hectic on that front and no time for nice to haves. After the June weekend I have a mostly free month with only one assignment due so it will give me time to catch up on a few things around here - the shed being my priority but not the real bosses!

    Still undecided whether to put a slab down or just raise the frame off the ground. If I decide to go with a slab I will hire a mini digger and prepare the ground around week 25 - but I need time to focus on if this is what I want.


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    #20
    Shedmanstyle
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭Shedmanstyle


    Finally exams are over for a few months and I can invest a little effort into this project. As the last 6 weeks have been so hectic I just want to work on something enjoyable so I’m going to make a start on the astronomical dome.

    More reasons for this sequence is that I’m still unsure about the base of the shed and the dome itself is quite tricky as it’s a geodesic design so I’d be glad to take my time at it, making some progress while taking my time deciding on the main construction.


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    #21
    HarshOstrich
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭HarshOstrich


    Why not go for a flat roof with a small pitch using galvanized steel cladding, its not that expensive and quick and easy to install.


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    #22
    Shedmanstyle
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭Shedmanstyle


    HarshOstrich wrote: »
    Why not go for a flat roof with a small pitch using galvanized steel cladding, its not that expensive and quick and easy to install.

    Too late for that now, roof trusses are bought.:o


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    #23
    Shedmanstyle
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭Shedmanstyle


    I done a lot of thinking over the weekend as I wasn't overly happy with the plans for the dome. I originally planned to construct from 2x2 geodesic design. I was looking at some plans and spotted the geodesic hub as another option, so I 3d printed a scaled down version, yet to be assembled as I don't have connecting rods to hand. I love the sturdy look of the one scaled part I printed. This is going to be a long journey I'm afraid.


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    #24
    pnecilcaser
    Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭pnecilcaser


    Nice! would love to see more of your drawings and plans


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    #25
    Shedmanstyle
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭Shedmanstyle


    pnecilcaser wrote: »
    Nice! would love to see more of your drawings and plans

    My plans are changing daily, or were anyway. I've a little more time to focus on it this week and by the end of it I'll hopefully have a fairly concrete plan.


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    #26
    Shedmanstyle
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭Shedmanstyle


    Shedmanstyle wrote: »
    My plans are changing daily, or were anyway. I've a little more time to focus on it this week and by the end of it I'll hopefully have a fairly concrete plan.

    And I forgot I was in college tomorrow and Saturday. Done a lot of drafting on the dome part the last few days, was almost set on the geodesic design using hubs until researching led me to look at another geodesic option.

    I'll link the prototypes below - They need work for the opening but ease of assembly I like. The diameter should be around 2.2metres.

    It's hard to see from the picture as it's a scaled down version, but there are triangular recesses in the hubs that will accommodate 3mm ply to close the dome.


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    #27
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,016 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    What do you plan to make the dome from?

    Do some rough calculations of weight and then think about the rotation mechanism/bearings.

    Colin Furze's retractable roof springs to mind.

    How about a fibreglass skin?


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    #28
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,016 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    http://www.domerama.com/calculators/3v-geodesic-dome-calculator/


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    #29
    Shedmanstyle
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭Shedmanstyle


    Lumen wrote: »
    What do you plan to make the dome from?

    Do some rough calculations of weight and then think about the rotation mechanism/bearings.

    Colin Furze's retractable roof springs to mind.

    How about a fibreglass skin?

    If I go with the design posted above I'll 3D print the hubs from ABS and use conduit as the spokes. Covered in 3mm ply the weight is about 40 kg including some support materials. So not heavy at all. I considered fibreglass but prefer an epoxy resin - more research to do there.


    I have a draft of the rotary system drawn up but it's still mid design so I won't post anything on that just yet. I'll be home tomorrow evening and will be able to do a little more work on it.


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    #30
    Shedmanstyle
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭Shedmanstyle


    Small update and a decision made. No concrete base. The boss has put too much work into the lawn and doesn't want it destroyed with mini digger dumper etc so I'm going to raise it off the ground on blocks. On the plus side I can get into some work at the weekend.

    In my head I'm thinking of closing off the floor with thin ply (marine) underneath and filling between joists with insulation roll before putting down the flooring. Any reason why that would be a bad idea?


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    #31
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,113 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    It would be a great idea, I had a shed that I had isulation put into the base of like that and it was good 18/20 years later. The shed was just standing on blocks too.


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