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Abortion - Will It Ever Happen?

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  • 27-03-2008 1:06am
    #1
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users Posts: 5,777 ✭✭✭


    Since we all like to pretend we're this modern Celtc Tiger Ireland, free from the shackles of the Catholic Church, I'd like to hear everyone's opinions on why abortion is such a squeamish issue for Irish people, no matter their age. Why is no political parties really talking about this issue and how long do we have to wait to see a bill?

    Interestingly enough, have a look at this map. Personally I think its a disgrace

    AbortionLawsMap.png


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    #2
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,289 ✭✭✭dresden8


    This question is often posed as left vs right, church vs secular, old vs modern, young vs old and several different ways.

    I'm pretty much a lefty and totally non-religious, but I believe an embryo is a baby and alive and therefore entitled to life.

    I also have my own qualifications on this. In fertility treatment there may be a lot of frozen embryos that may never be implanted. I don't consider them alive and therefore think they can be disposed of.

    However, in disposing of those embryos they shouldn't be used to create human-animal hybrids or be "harvested" for whatever reason. They should be properly disposed of. As in gone.

    I realise my opinion may be individual and several people can pick holes and anomolies in all the above statements, but hey, screw you.


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    #3
    Tha Gopher
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭Tha Gopher


    speedboatchase wrote: »
    Since we all like to pretend we're this modern Celtc Tiger Ireland, free from the shackles of the Catholic Church....[/IMG]

    Oh jaysus, here we go.

    The church has not had a say in the running of the state since, at the very, very latest, the mid 80s, and even that is stretching it.


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    #4
    johnnyq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭johnnyq


    OP wrote:
    how long do we have to wait to see a bill?

    Until there is another referendum afaik?


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    #5
    daithicarr
    Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭daithicarr


    i think the approach that some other countrys like Poland take is the best, illegal except in the case of Rape, maternal life/health and or fetal defects. Dont see why anyone should be forced to bring a child in to the world under those circumstances.
    But in the case of where people just dont want it for personel or economic reasons, there shouldnt be abortion, in my opinion. should live with the consequences of your actions and not kill a child because it doenst suit you. should have kept your pants on.


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    #6
    Studoc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 70 ✭✭Studoc


    The immortal line,

    "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament"

    sums up best for me the claptrap that passes for informed debate on this subject.


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    #7
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Recognising that this is a topic that enflames people's passions, I'm going to lay down a marker at an early stage: if you want to participate in this discussion, you will do so calmly, rationally and dispassionately.

    Anyone who ignores this warning and goes off on one will be banned. Anyone who gets personally abusive towards another poster will be banned for quite a while. And if a lot of moderation is required on an ongoing basis, the thread will be closed.


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    #8
    Gurgle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭Gurgle


    dresden8 wrote: »
    I'm pretty much a lefty and totally non-religious, but I believe an embryo is a baby and alive and therefore entitled to life.
    ^^ Sums it up for me.


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    #9
    gordon_gekko
    Closed Accounts Posts: 412 ✭✭gordon_gekko


    why do so many people assume that being pro choice is progressive

    as far as im concerned , being pro choice for many is just another liberal sacred cow


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    #10
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    daithicarr wrote: »
    i think the approach that some other countrys like Poland take is the best, illegal except in the case of Rape, maternal life/health and or fetal defects. Dont see why anyone should be forced to bring a child in to the world under those circumstances.
    But in the case of where people just dont want it for personel or economic reasons, there shouldnt be abortion, in my opinion. should live with the consequences of your actions and not kill a child because it doenst suit you. should have kept your pants on.

    1. Does the "child" not deserve a life regardless of who spawned it, or what defects it has? You consider it a life, yet would kill it because it is defective and so an inconvenience for its parents.

    2. Is bearing a child whilst immersed in poverty such a good idea? Should they have to raise it too, or is the birth enough?

    3. Your post implies that women should be expected to give birth as a means of punishment ("live with the consequences of your actions") -- seems a bit harsh to me. And not exactly conducive to a positive parent-child relationship. Accidents happen, btw.


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    #11
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    I think that abortion should be legal, but the reasons should be right, not just abortion for the sake of it. I don't just mean disability, rape etc either.

    I think the real issue should be the number of young girls who travel to the UK for an abortion and get little or no post abortion counselling. There appears almost a head in the sand approach to the subject at the moment. Ireland can hold itself up as a beacon of light in the war against abortion, but ignore the fact thousand of girls a year are flying to England for terminations.


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    #12
    The Geraldine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7 ✭The Geraldine


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    I think that abortion should be legal, but the reasons should be right, not just abortion for the sake of it. I don't just mean disability, rape etc either.

    I think the real issue should be the number of young girls who travel to the UK for an abortion and get little or no post abortion counselling. There appears almost a head in the sand approach to the subject at the moment. Ireland can hold itself up as a beacon of light in the war against abortion, but ignore the fact thousand of girls a year are flying to England for terminations.

    Those who argue against abortion are total hyprocrites - where are they whe nthe baby is born - their argument is based on control not wanting to protect the life of the unborn. They are still of the mindset that a woman's body is to be controlled by a man ie The Church.

    Even though I'm adopted I am fully in favour of legal abortion in Ireland.

    There are far too many people with children they are utterly unable to be proper parents too either financially or emotionally and if you think hard on it this world is not such a great place to live. Sure in the west we are fine but even in the west there are poor people, abused people, broken people not to mention the horrors that go on in all sorts of other places.

    Why on earth bring a child into such a world?


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    #13
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,235 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    dresden8 wrote: »
    This question is often posed as left vs right, church vs secular, old vs modern, young vs old and several different ways.

    I'm pretty much a lefty and totally non-religious, but I believe an embryo is a baby and alive and therefore entitled to life.

    I also have my own qualifications on this. In fertility treatment there may be a lot of frozen embryos that may never be implanted. I don't consider them alive and therefore think they can be disposed of.

    However, in disposing of those embryos they shouldn't be used to create human-animal hybrids or be "harvested" for whatever reason. They should be properly disposed of. As in gone.

    I realise my opinion may be individual and several people can pick holes and anomolies in all the above statements, but hey, screw you.
    You recognise that your position is a 'belief'. Thats a first step.

    As a 'lefty' do you think other people who don't share your opinions should be forced by law to comply with your personal beliefs?

    Up to 80% of all implanted embryos fail to develop into a child for purely natural reasons. The vast majority of pregnancies end in natural termination.

    http://www.reason.com/news/show/34948.html

    We would be an awful lot better off caring properly for actual human children instead of forcing women to carry unwanted embryos to full term.


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    #14
    Mr. Presentable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    There are many reasons people have abortions, but the most common one is women/girls who cannot/will not use birth control. Why should they have a get out that consists the termination of another persons life?

    And don't give me this whole "it's my body" crap. It's not - you chose to host a developing human by consenting to procreation and opting not to take a precaution which costs 20c.

    This is my opinion. I trust it will be respected for what it is without being abused.


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    #15
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,235 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    gordon_gekko wrote: »
    why do so many people assume that being pro choice is progressive
    Because giving women control over their own reproduction is an essential aspect of womens liberation, and the hallmark of a civilised society.
    as far as im concerned , being pro choice for many is just another liberal sacred cow
    You don't have to agree with abortion to be pro choice. All you have to do is agree that you don't know what's best for other people, and that you have no right to impose your personal beliefs on others.


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    #16
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    nipplenuts wrote: »
    There are many reasons people have abortions, but the most common one is women/girls who cannot/will not use birth control. Why should they have a get out that consists the termination of another persons life?

    aahh yes, it's the girls fault isn't it. bloody harlets getting themselves knocked up:rolleyes:

    contraception is not 100% safe, there are accidents, drunken one night stands and dozens of other reasons.


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    #17
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,235 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    nipplenuts wrote: »
    There are many reasons people have abortions, but the most common one is women/girls who cannot/will not use birth control. Why should they have a get out that consists the termination of another persons life?
    An embryo isn't a person, nor is a foetus, any more than an acorn is an oak tree.
    And don't give me this whole "it's my body" crap. It's not - you chose to host a developing human by consenting to procreation and opting not to take a precaution which costs 20c.
    Contraception is not 100% effective. do you consider all human sexual activity to be a tacit consent to parenthood? If so, you are debasing what you are trying to protect. Our humanity. We are not animals who have sex just for procreation. We are people, and sex is a very important part of our lives and our relationships. Every sperm is not sacred, we do not consent to parenthood every time a couple makes love.
    This is my opinion. I trust it will be respected for what it is without being abused.
    It is your opinion, you're entitled to it, but do you feel you have a right to force it onto everyone else?


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    #18
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    The Geraldine wrote: »
    Those who argue against abortion are total hyprocrites
    Did I stutter?

    Final warning.


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    #19
    atlasman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7 ✭atlasman


    What makes the Irish people think they have a choice on this matter.

    You all seem to forget that the boys in Brussels call the tune nowadays. And they are singing from the United Nations hymn sheet.

    It will take a stand of monumental proportions to stop the introduction of abortion and euthanasia legislation.


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    #20
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    gordon_gekko wrote: »
    why do so many people assume that being pro choice is progressive
    Not necessarily progressive, but it's recognised as being the logical stance.

    Anti-abortionists' stance is largely based on the belief that the embryo is a living human being. The key word here being "belief". Pro-choice people recognise that regardless of what they believe, you cannot enforce your beliefs on someone else. It's illogical.

    Sure, people back up their beliefs with all sorts of scientific claims, but ultimately nothing has yet been proven, therefore the belief is still just a belief, it's not a truth.

    The contraception thing is quite similar - contraception in this country was illegal for a long time, based on the belief that it was wrong. Now if someone believes it to be wrong, they have the choice to not use it. Whereas the rest of us have the choice to use it.

    For me personally, when an embryo has greater than 50% viability outside of the womb (either in general or because of scientific intervention), then it shouldn't be aborted. Before that, there is insufficient evidence to consider the embryo to be a separate human organism.

    The cut-off point should be constantly re-examined as science progresses. A 20-week embryo may not have 50% viability now, but may have in 10 years time. At that time, you bring the cut-off back to twenty weeks.


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    #21
    atlasman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7 ✭atlasman


    seamus wrote: »
    Not necessarily progressive, but it's recognised as being the logical stance.

    .

    Here we have another of these moderately educated individuals pushing his logical/scientific view of the world.

    We are all so progressive. Have you ever considered why the scientific method was promoted in the first place, and why the religious method existed before?

    Both are methods of control. Respect for you fellow man should be the basis of all opinions, not new age liberalism.


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    #22
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    atlasman wrote: »
    Respect for you fellow man
    Respecting someone else implies respecting their right to choose. Shocker!

    The scientific method says nothing of control whatsoever. It's a method for asserting the correctness of theories, nothing more. It doesn't try to tell you what's completely wrong or incorrect, only tries to discover what is correct. By its very nature, the scientific method accepts that correctness is transitional and completely dependent on scientific factors in existence at the time the method was applied. Hence why it never says anything is incorrect, is just says that something cannot be verified.

    "Respect for your fellow man" is a lovely little rhetorical hippyish statement, but in reality it doesn't provide any answers, or methods for procuring answers.


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    #23
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    atlasman wrote: »
    Both are methods of control. Respect for you fellow man should be the basis of all opinions, not new age liberalism.
    In fairness now,one doesn't have to carry the weight of your Churches teachings or if you have none your own moral guidelines around on display to chastise other peoples choices.

    I don't like abortion at all,never did,never will.
    I certainly think that some use it as an ejector seat type of birth control.
    That in my view is horrendous and I'd have a dim view of anyone I knew who does that-I don't thankfully.

    There was an anology earlier in the thread comparing an embyro to an acorn.
    The day I give an embyro the same little respect that I'd give to an acorn (I have no problem standing on an acorn,I'd have big problems standing on an embyro) is the day I lose all respect for myself.
    In other words,that analogy is to me the most ridiculous I've ever hear.

    I have a simple philosophy with regard to abortion and it's availability.I'll never vote for it's availability because I don't agree with it.But if it's legally available,I'm not stopping anyone availing of it (except I'd make my view known to them if I knew them or if they were close to me or something or maybe I wouldn't it depends).
    As far as I'm concerned,if theres bad kharma associated with abortion either here or in some afterlife,the person having the abortion takes that risk.
    If there isn't well they are away in a hack.
    Thats up to them,they are either cool with it or not.
    I certainly ain't.


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    #24
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,235 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    atlasman wrote: »
    Here we have another of these moderately educated individuals pushing his logical/scientific view of the world.

    We are all so progressive. Have you ever considered why the scientific method was promoted in the first place, and why the religious method existed before?

    Both are methods of control. Respect for you fellow man should be the basis of all opinions, not new age liberalism.

    throw away your computer so.

    The scientific method is responsible for all the technology in the world.


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    #25
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,235 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Deleted User wrote: »
    There was an anology earlier in the thread comparing an embyro to an acorn.
    The day I give an embyro the same little respect that I'd give to an acorn (I have no problem standing on an acorn,I'd have big problems standing on an embyro) is the day I lose all respect for myself.
    Its not about respect. That's a personal belief. An embryo is a seed, All life starts from a seed. The vast vast vast majority of seeds in this world never develop into maturity. That's the way nature works. The vast majority of human seeds never develop into people. It is no less damaging to the embryo itself if it dies of natural causes, or if it is aborted.
    People value life because we have empathy. We don't kill or harm other people because we can imagine what it would feel like to be killed, bereaved or harmed ourselves and we don't want to inflict that pain on others. We invest in medicine and health care because we empathise with the sick and we want to help ourselves.
    An embryo has none of these feelings or relationships. We are projecting our own hopes and emotions onto something that is yet to exist.
    There is a strong emotional argument about the 'potential life' of an embryo.
    Potential life is not the same as actual life. Every time I decide not to have unprotected sex, I am destroying potential for life. The overwhelming majority of potential outcomes are never realised. It is totally illogical to lock a woman down to a life time committment just to protect one potential outcome over the billions of other outcomes she would be sacrificing.

    People often think 'I wouldn't have liked to have been aborted, cause then I wouldn't be here. Well, there are countless reasons why you wouldn't be here. An awful lot of us wouldn't be here if contraception hadn't been banned in Ireland (perhaps your parents would not have been born) does that mean we should ban contaception?

    If it was an equal tragedy every time a human embryo failed to develop as it is every time a human child or adult dies, then we would be totally demeaning the true value of human life.
    In other words,that analogy is to me the most ridiculous I've ever hear.
    An acorn is a potential oak tree. It is not an oak tree. An embryo is a potential person, it is not a person.

    I have a simple philosophy with regard to abortion and it's availability.I'll never vote for it's availability because I don't agree with it.But if it's legally available,I'm not stopping anyone availing of it (except I'd make my view known to them if I knew them or if they were close to me or something or maybe I wouldn't it depends).
    Would you vote against it? because that is stopping people availing of it.
    As far as I'm concerned,if theres bad kharma associated with abortion either here or in some afterlife,the person having the abortion takes that risk.
    If there isn't well they are away in a hack.
    Thats up to them,they are either cool with it or not.
    I certainly ain't.
    But you do agree that it is a choice based on personal beliefs right?


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    #26
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Well in fairness to 'pro-lifers', of course they would not want other people to have abortions, if they believe it involves killing a human. I'm against murder, but that doesn't mean I believe others should be allowed to murder. I think murder is wrong, and nobody should do it, and it should be illegal.


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    #27
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Its not about respect.
    Of course it's about respect.
    An acorn is a potential oak tree. It is not an oak tree. An embryo is a potential person, it is not a person.
    Therein lies the nub.In common with most people I'd say,I've more respect for a potential person than a potential tree.
    You don't fine for you.
    Would you vote against it? because that is stopping people availing of it.
    I'd vote against it because I'd be asked by virtue of my vote to facilitate it.I wouldn't build an abortion clinic either if directly asked to do that for example.
    But you do agree that it is a choice based on personal beliefs right?
    Why are you asking me that when I'd already answered that?
    If it was an equal tragedy every time a human embryo failed to develop as it is every time a human child or adult dies, then we would be totally demeaning the true value of human life.
    That boils down to a difference between what nature allows to happen without human intervention and what happens with deliberate human intervention.The difference is marked.
    It's also a question of line drawing.
    Different people of course have different lines depending on what they are comfortable with.
    I'm sure there are people who would like to abort at almost birth,just as there are people who would subscribe to the every sperm is sacred rule.


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    #28
    daithicarr
    Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭daithicarr


    i read that after 5 weeks there are signs that a fetus begins to show self awareness. after this period i think it is morally questionable to abort the baby.
    if it is aware, it has a right to life, should i be allowed terminate the life of a infant becuase i dont want it?
    I understand that in the case of sever physical or mental handicap, where the child will be totaly dependant on others its entire life, there might be some case for an abortion .

    But i really dont see why if they dont want the child they dont put it up for adoption ? you still get tid of it, you dont end a life.


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    #29
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    At this point I'm beginning to wonder about the relevance of this thread to Politics.

    If it's going to become the usual rights-and-wrongs debate, it will be heading to Humanities very shortly.


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    #30
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    daithicarr wrote: »
    i read that after 5 weeks there are signs that a fetus begins to show self awareness. after this period i think it is morally questionable to abort the baby.
    Links? How do you define self-awareness, how did this thing you read define self-awareness, and how were these tests carried out?
    But i really dont see why if they dont want the child they dont put it up for adoption ? you still get tid of it, you dont end a life.
    A number of reasons really. The strongest argument being that pregnancy releases a whole batch of hormones, designed to interfere with your ability to make rational decisions and to create a strong emotional bond between mother and child. Before the pregnancy properly sets in, a woman should be more rational and more able to look impartially at the decision, than after the birth.

    Or to take the extreme view (not mine) - a foetus is a parasite growing inside the body which causes physical, mental and emotional changes to the body which are often irreversible. If this parasite wasn't the result of copulation, would you prevent someone from having it removed to prevent this damage to their body and their mind?


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    #31
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    I think this thread demonstrates nicely what an emotice subject this is. To answer the OPs question, I think it will one day, but not under this government.

    Why rock the boat when you can ship people off to a neighbouring country and sweep the issue under the carpet.


This discussion has been closed.
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