3 of the 10 Republican hopefuls dont believe in evolution

jonny72 · 04-05-2007 2:23pm #1

I swear if you plucked some warlord religious bigot from the Dark Ages in Europe and put him on a parapet today.. he'd spew exactly the same rhetoric that seems to come from the mouths of all Republicans.. blah blah sun rotates around the earth.. blah must smite muslim invaders blah.. blah execution, torture, state of war blah .. and guess what.. he'd have a big audience.

In finland people would think maybe he was a comedy act, but in the deep south of the US, wow he'd probably get a standing ovation, then some rich fat white guy would invaribly come up and give him a few pointers on how you can really exploit these people's fears and ignorance to make more than a few bucks.

Theres seems to me to be a unusally large core of well-meaning, but ignorant, unworldly, backwards people in America (much to the frustration and dismay of the other Americans).. and around this core, the vultures feed.. the evangelic leaders, the scam artists, the TV talking heads all whipping them up in a paranoid religious frenzy.. but none of these parasites can manipulate this core as well as the Republicans complete with their rightwing firebrand "git offa maw lawn' preaching..

And I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised, that despite all the scandal, all the failures, all the corruption that they can get this group of idiots to vote for them again.

They've had their way for nearly a decade now, and they've just screwed up, over and over and over, they've almost irreperably destroyed America's image abroad, they're turning the place into a police state, they've entered a neverending war, the list just goes on and on and on..

And to top it all off, they seem to think that they've somehow vindicated themselves entirely because we all know, that of course, it was all Donald Rumsfeld's fault..

/huge rant
//deep breaths, calm blue ocean

Zambia · 04-05-2007 2:30pm

jonny72 wrote:

I swear if you plucked some warlord religious bigot from the Dark Ages in Europe and put him on a parapet today.. he'd spew exactly the same rhetoric that seems to come from the mouths of all Republicans.. blah blah sun rotates around the earth.. blah must smite muslim invaders blah.. blah execution, torture, state of war blah .. and guess what.. he'd have a big audience.

In finland people would think maybe he was a comedy act, but in the deep south of the US, wow he'd probably get a standing ovation, then some rich fat white guy would invaribly come up and give him a few pointers on how you can really exploit these people's fears and ignorance to make more than a few bucks.

Theres seems to me to be a unusally large core of well-meaning, but ignorant, unworldly, backwards people in America (much to the frustration and dismay of the other Americans).. and around this core, the vultures feed.. the evangelic leaders, the scam artists, the TV talking heads all whipping them up in a paranoid religious frenzy.. but none of these parasites can manipulate this core as well as the Republicans complete with their rightwing firebrand "git offa maw lawn' preaching..

And I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised, that despite all the scandal, all the failures, all the corruption that they can get this group of idiots to vote for them again.

They've had their way for nearly a decade now, and they've just screwed up, over and over and over, they've almost irreperably destroyed America's image abroad, they're turning the place into a police state, they've entered a neverending war, the list just goes on and on and on..

And to top it all off, they seem to think that they've somehow vindicated themselves entirely because we all know, that of course, it was all Donald Rumsfeld's fault..

/huge rant
//deep breaths, calm blue ocean

All this and no link to anything even the names of the three ??

jonny72 · 04-05-2007 3:15pm

I think they've been identified as Sen. Sam Brownback, Gov. Mike Huckabee, and Rep. Tom Tancredo.

Aaand they aren't alone..

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17879317/site/newsweek/

"Nearly half (48 percent) of the public rejects the scientific theory of evolution; one-third (34 percent) of college graduates say they accept the Biblical account of creation as fact."

mike65 · 04-05-2007 4:31pm

That 3 US republican contenters think the earth is evolutionarily-speaking flat, is frankly only a suprise in terms of how small the number is.

Mike.

RalphCifaretto · 04-05-2007 5:19pm

jonny72 wrote:

I think they've been identified as Sen. Sam Brownback, Gov. Mike Huckabee, and Rep. Tom Tancredo.

Aaand they aren't alone..

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17879317/site/newsweek/

"Nearly half (48 percent) of the public rejects the scientific theory of evolution; one-third (34 percent) of college graduates say they accept the Biblical account of creation as fact."

They are the figures I've seen before. I'm sure if you looked at the Republican party membership the proportion who deny the theory of evolution would be much greater than 30%.

Scigaithris · 07-05-2007 1:24am

jonny72 wrote:

Theres seems to me to be a unusally large core of well-meaning, but ignorant, unworldly, backwards people in America (much to the frustration and dismay of the other Americans).. and around this core, the vultures feed.. the evangelic leaders, the scam artists, the TV talking heads all whipping them up in a paranoid religious frenzy..

Politics as usual? Media as usual? Opportunists as usual? Vested interests as usual? Could we substitute the word "America" with the names of other nations? (And please don't remind us of northern Ireland history or the position of the Church regarding evolution)

dave2pvd · 07-05-2007 2:58pm

It is quite amazing. I have met so many intelligent, articulate, accomplished people here that do not believe in evolution. Their faith tells them not to. So they don't.

I make a good effort to insert the word 'evolution' in a sentence at least once a day. People wince, just a little. Sometimes you can see pupils dilate ever so slightly. That means you've just been judged.

Oh, and don't think it's just the deep-South, it's just as bad in the mid-West, in a more waspish-protestant kind of way. And just about anywhere else away from the urban centers. The South is just more energetic about it all. We have revivals. And get saved. (You do know you're all going to hell, right?).

jonny72 · 07-05-2007 3:17pm

Scigaithris wrote:

Politics as usual? Media as usual? Opportunists as usual? Vested interests as usual? Could we substitute the word "America" with the names of other nations? (And please don't remind us of northern Ireland history or the position of the Church regarding evolution)

Eh, I'm talking about the Republican party here, if you wanna gripe about Fianna Fail be my guest..

Essey · 07-05-2007 9:57pm

Just because you :rolleyes: don't believe in God doesn't make that belief wrong. Everyone subscribes to something whether its a belief in God or a disbelief etc.. nobody lives in a vacuum. Peoples thought processes are shaped by those beliefs but that doesn't mean that they are prejudice against those that do not share their belief system. Your anger seems to be coming from some ill defined place - have you discussed this with someone?:cool:

jonny72 · 07-05-2007 11:54pm

Essey wrote:

Just because you :rolleyes: don't believe in God doesn't make that belief wrong. Everyone subscribes to something whether its a belief in God or a disbelief etc.. nobody lives in a vacuum. Peoples thought processes are shaped by those beliefs but that doesn't mean that they are prejudice against those that do not share their belief system. Your anger seems to be coming from some ill defined place - have you discussed this with someone?:cool:

God told the current president of the United States to invade Iraq.. or am I wrong? Religion and politics don't really mix very well, and the Republicans seem to be taking a step back in that respect. Any belief systems you don't agree with? lets start with fanatical Islam..

Scigaithris · 08-05-2007 4:15am

jonny72 wrote:

God told the current president of the United States to invade Iraq.. or am I wrong?

Depends on how you define the US Republican Party god? Texaco?

The Republican prophet? Former Texas oilman G.W. Bush?

The Republican apostles? The US oil lobby?

The choir? Oil stock investors?

The parishioners? Americans who drive gas-guzzling SUVs?

The holy sacrifice? Blood for oil?

.

Gobán Saor · 08-05-2007 3:37pm

jonny72 wrote:

one-third (34 percent) of college graduates say they accept the Biblical account of creation as fact."

This is the really scary bit IMHO.:eek:

FTA69 · 08-05-2007 3:49pm

Essey wrote:

Just because you :rolleyes: don't believe in God doesn't make that belief wrong.

No the fact that religion is based on lies and bullsh*t makes that belief wrong. At the end of the day the belief comes down to God making the world, a divine power nobody can see or contact, and the belief we go to some mystical plain when we die. How is that so fundamental belief much different to say the Davidians, or those who believe aliens were responsible for human civilisation? Come to think of it, aliens are probably a bigger likelihood.

Sand · 08-05-2007 6:42pm

Just because you don't believe in God doesn't make that belief wrong. Everyone subscribes to something whether its a belief in God or a disbelief etc.. nobody lives in a vacuum. Peoples thought processes are shaped by those beliefs but that doesn't mean that they are prejudice against those that do not share their belief system. Your anger seems to be coming from some ill defined place - have you discussed this with someone?

I kinda agree - dont have time for people who are out and out hostile to religion. Its like slagging off kids for believing in Santa. If someone wants to believe fairies live at the bottom of their garden or theres some invisible super being living high in the sky who created everything, hears their every thought and intervenes in their daily life and the lives of everyone else...well fine. I can see that organised religion offers a social binding and some sort of moral code for people who need to be given that.

Only bothers me when they try to spread their stupidity or enforce lip service to it, or attempt to sabotage genuine understanding of the world because it doesnt fit with their storybook. Thats when it stops being a harmless personal belief.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonny72
one-third (34 percent) of college graduates say they accept the Biblical account of creation as fact."

This is the really scary bit IMHO.

Agreed. Anyone who comes out of college claiming that needs to have their degree suspended, be sent to a proper college, and the college that they graduated from needs to be shut down and its teaching staff forbidden to teach again.

jonny72 · 08-05-2007 8:01pm

Sand wrote:

Agreed. Anyone who comes out of college claiming that needs to have their degree suspended, be sent to a proper college, and the college that they graduated from needs to be shut down and its teaching staff forbidden to teach again.

No, people over here are genuinely very surprised by it. I mean we in Europe have _already been through_ all this. Its just a natural progression.

I don't believe in witchcraft, witch burnings, female circumcision, human sacrifice, stonings, head-shavings, forced marriages, all these general by-products of the exploitation of religion and people's faith.

How after all the wars, scandals, lies, phoney anti-terror laws, secret prisons, slow economy, terrible this terrible that.. how is the Republican administration still in power?.. one reason.. Religion.. this giant chunk of religious America.. I believe the evangelicals have a voting block of nearly 50 million.. am I right?
This Republican administration has been so incompetent, its staggering, the administration of the world's only hyperpower, made up of these kind of people, neo-cons, the phoniest of politians and all because they were clever enough to yolk the power of them thar religious folk.

dave2pvd · 08-05-2007 8:04pm

Sand wrote:

Anyone who comes out of college claiming that (creation) needs to have their degree suspended, be sent to a proper college, and the college that they graduated from needs to be shut down and its teaching staff forbidden to teach again.

What on earth are you talking about? It's not a product of university. This is upbringing: family instilled and Sunday-school reinforced. It's not that different from the attempted Catholic upbringing I had no so long ago. The creation part is a mere detail in the whole fairy-tale. It's no weirder than the 'requirement' to confess sins or you'll go to hell. I'll bet you know some people who still believe that?

Essey · 08-05-2007 9:16pm

FTA69 wrote:

No the fact that religion is based on lies and bullsh*t makes that belief wrong. At the end of the day the belief comes down to God making the world, a divine power nobody can see or contact, and the belief we go to some mystical plain when we die. How is that so fundamental belief much different to say the Davidians, or those who believe aliens were responsible for human civilisation? Come to think of it, aliens are probably a bigger likelihood.

Lies and Bull**it is merely your Subjective opinion. There is an endless array of unexplained phenomenon that we can neither see, feel, taste or experience but nevertheless we acknowledge its existence. Science recognizes the existence of Black Holes - have you been in one lately – seen one – experienced one? Because Religion has been twisted by some doesn’t mean that it’s fundamentally “evil” and that there is no higher power than you. Because someone believes in the existence of a God being doesn’t make them an idiot. Rather for one to ridicule someone because their belief system in a divine power is different than yours is to expose yourself as unenlightened and dogmatic as you have accused them of being.

My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.
Albert Einstein

Dr_Teeth · 08-05-2007 9:49pm

"Lies and Bull****" is a fair comment to make on the silly, unproven, fantastical claims which are religion's bread and butter.

An astronomer will not tell you he knows 100% that there are black holes. He would show you what has been observed, and talk to you about what the most likely explanations are (given our present understanding based on the work of countless other scientists over many decades). He'd then invite you to join all the other astronomers out there who making even more observations in an attempt to replace the current understanding with an even better one! If you really wanted to, you could spend your whole life trying to disprove the concept of black holes using observations of the universe and scientific methods, and astronomers would cheer you for it!

A religious nut however, would tell you that the world is 6000 years old, and the reason he know's this is that it says so in a book that was beaten into him as a child. If you suggested a different idea based on observations of the real world, no doubt he'd tell you to go to hell.

Essey · 08-05-2007 10:12pm

Dr Teeth - the bread and butter of religions if love, compassion and kindness. If some choose to warp this concept then don't blame God. My point was that there are things that we "believe" exist yet can not prove - (at least yet). Many people embrace religion its not necessarily "Beaten" :eek: into them - but very dramatic analogy.:cool:

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 08-05-2007 10:48pm

the bread and butter of religions if love, compassion and kindness. If some choose to warp this concept then don't blame God.

what has burning forever in eternal hellfire got to do with love, compassion and kindness?

leninbenjamin · 08-05-2007 10:57pm

Essey wrote:

Just because you :rolleyes: don't believe in God doesn't make that belief wrong. Everyone subscribes to something whether its a belief in God or a disbelief etc.. nobody lives in a vacuum. Peoples thought processes are shaped by those beliefs but that doesn't mean that they are prejudice against those that do not share their belief system. Your anger seems to be coming from some ill defined place - have you discussed this with someone?:cool:

personal beliefs aren't necessarily the problem. it's when you inflict your views on someone else. haven't there been cases of schools refusing to teach evolution or something along those lines? now that's why a line has to be drawn.

on the universities issue: for the most part universities are supposed to teach scientific method and rigor etc. it's all part of the university philosophy really. I would agree that it is kind of worrying that more and more people are coming out of these institutions and rejecting the more "scientific" of the two theories. it just seems a rejection of the whole essence of what universities stand for (if that makes sense). I mean science and creationism can't really live side by side.

oscarBravo · 09-05-2007 10:50am

Stopped being a Politcs thread - if it ever was one - a looong time ago.

Dr_Teeth · 09-05-2007 11:49am

Essey wrote:

Dr Teeth - the bread and butter of religions if love, compassion and kindness. If some choose to warp this concept then don't blame God. My point was that there are things that we "believe" exist yet can not prove - (at least yet). Many people embrace religion its not necessarily "Beaten" :eek: into them - but very dramatic analogy.:cool:

Humans were moral entities, that loved their families and built societies LONG before Abraham supposedly talked a burning bush. The concepts of love, compassion, kindness.. morality in general have absolutely nothing to do with organised religion.

Look, if you limit your faith to saying "I believe God created the universe and that I should thank him for it every now and then" I don't think anyone would have a problem. You wouldn't be making any falsifiable predictions and your belief wouldn't have any negative impact on anyone else. But religious people simply can't leave it at that, and insist on adding in completely untrue and frankly crazy stuff.. and then try to force it onto others.

Zombrex · 09-05-2007 2:23pm

Essey wrote:

Dr Teeth - the bread and butter of religions if love, compassion and kindness.

No, the bread and butter of religion, at least western religion, is convincing someone that something is wrong with them and that they need the specific religion because of this.

There is a reason why you don't have the Pope, or L. Ron Hubbard, or Martian Luther, telling people that any religion will do, just try and be nice to each other.

Essey wrote:

My point was that there are things that we "believe" exist yet can not prove - (at least yet). Many people embrace religion its not necessarily "Beaten" :eek: into them - but very dramatic analogy.:cool:

How many people don't choose the religion they grow up with? Last time I checked more people become atheists than change from the religion of their parents.

bonkey · 09-05-2007 2:50pm

Essey wrote:

There is an endless array of unexplained phenomenon that we can neither see, feel, taste or experience but nevertheless we acknowledge its existence.

Perhaps, but not in the sense that I think you mean.

Science recognizes the existence of Black Holes - have you been in one lately – seen one – experienced one?

Science didn't just dream up the notion of black holes, decide they sounded like a good idea, and make them a canonical part of science as a result.

Science doesn't have a single holy book which has been decided to be infallible, wherein the existence of black holes is written, which is why science recognises their existence.

Rather, science has through progressively better models of the universe concluded that black holes should exist, then figured out what effects one would see if the do exist, then went and figured out where those effects should be seen, and found them. Over time, the theory has passed increasingly greater numbers of such falsifiable tests, which is why science "recognises" the existence of black holes.

This is true of all scientific theory.

Given the choice between words written thousands of years ago in a book said by some to be infallible and the best science has to offer, I know where I will put my money every time.

People are, of course, free to believe in whatever they choose.

I, for example, choose to believe that people who put faith in the literal truth of Genesis or the like are not people I would in turn put my faith in to occupy any position of secular authority.

My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.
Albert Einstein

It should be noted that Albert Einstein repeatedly went to pains to make it clear that he did not believe in a personal God, which is the type of "higher power" posited by the Jewish, Christian and Muslim religions.

if anything, he was dismayed at how often people choose to misinterpret or misrepresent comments that he had already clarified his stance on, to make it appear as though he did not reject the Jewish/Christian/Muslim/other notion of a personal God.

In terms of this thread, while he may not side with those who are expressing deep-seated anger at the mere concept of religion, he would certainly not have given any credence to Creationists of the type who believe in the literal truth of Genesis.

Sangre · 09-05-2007 3:11pm

Essey wrote:

Lies and Bull**it is merely your Subjective opinion. There is an endless array of unexplained phenomenon that we can neither see, feel, taste or experience but nevertheless we acknowledge its existence. Science recognizes the existence of Black Holes - have you been in one lately – seen one – experienced one?

Belief in black holes is based on an educated guess resulting from material observation and theory.
Religion (well most) is the opposite of an educated guess, going as far as rejecting established knowledge and science and instead accepting a higher belief.

Zombrex · 09-05-2007 4:24pm

Essey wrote:

There is an endless array of unexplained phenomenon that we can neither see, feel, taste or experience but nevertheless we acknowledge its existence.

True, but there is a difference between acknowledging their existence and assuming you know what it is was.

For example, a Christian might believe God is talking to them in their head. Now clearly something is happening, because the Christian will tell you straight out "God talks to me".

But it is in that jump from that something to God is talking to me that the problem lies.

Religion quickly makes up an answer that is pleasing to the people who want a pleasing answer. Whether or not it is actually true is rather beside the point. It is no more true than any other answer that someone can make up, but people will believe it is true because they want to believe it is true.

Science on the the other hands attempts to slowly find out what is actually going on, with little regard for whether the answer will be pleasing to anyone.

Essey wrote:

Because someone believes in the existence of a God being doesn’t make them an idiot.

No, but it does mean they are prone to accepting explanations for things because they are pleasing to them rather than because they are true or likely. I don't think this makes someone an idiot, but I do think that in doing so they abandon rationality and reason.

Say someone feels a presence in their head. The idea that this presence is God attempting to communicate with them is far more pleasing to them than the idea that it is a trick of the mind. They will accept the former explanation over the latter, despite the fact that the latter is a far more rational explanation.

Ultimately it is down to strength of judgment, willing to put the likely explanation over an unlikely but pleasing explanation.

A lot of people are not willing to do this because the comfort gained from the unlikely explanation is worth more to them than the sense of really understanding what is actually happening (ie the truth). The truth can often be very discomforting.

Essey · 09-05-2007 5:28pm

Mordeth wrote:

what has burning forever in eternal hellfire got to do with love, compassion and kindness?

I would have expected a more intelligent answer from a "moderator"

Sand · 09-05-2007 6:51pm

What on earth are you talking about? It's not a product of university. This is upbringing: family instilled and Sunday-school reinforced. It's not that different from the attempted Catholic upbringing I had no so long ago. The creation part is a mere detail in the whole fairy-tale. It's no weirder than the 'requirement' to confess sins or you'll go to hell. I'll bet you know some people who still believe that?

If a student comes out of an educational facility rejecting common sense, reason and all available evidence in favour of a story book then that educational facility has failed on two levels - they accepted the student, and then they failed to educate the student on even the most basic fundamental level of examining the evidence and reaching a reasonable conclusion.

It doesnt even have to be the conclusion theyre told to find - leave that to the church of socialism tbh - but it ought to be something that can at least be argued without saying "Well it says so right here in Ezekiel 13:48, right after the part where God commands them to slay all the women and children".

Oh and for the record, no I dont know anyone who still believes theyll go to hell if they dont confess their sins. Id find it very odd if someone came out with that tbh, though whatever floats their boat. I would have serious doubts about that persons cop on though.

dave2pvd · 09-05-2007 7:21pm

Sand wrote:

If a student comes out of an educational facility rejecting common sense, reason and all available evidence in favour of a story book then that educational facility has failed on two levels - they accepted the student, and then they failed to educate the student on even the most basic fundamental level of examining the evidence and reaching a reasonable conclusion.

I am trying to recall the part in my 3rd level education where religion was even discussed. You did use the words 'college' and 'degree', if I recall.

Are you confusing secondary school/high school with university? In university, unless you're studying in a somewhat related field, 'faith' will not be examined, thus the student is unlikely to question aspects of faith.

As for their failure in accepting the student for entry: again, what on earth are you talking about? How would an institute discern an individual's lack of sense and faulty reasoning in advance of entry?

Zombrex · 09-05-2007 9:16pm

dave2pvd wrote:

In university, unless you're studying in a somewhat related field, 'faith' will not be examined,

I don't think that is Sand's point.

In college students should be encouraged to reason and examine, not just in the subject of degree, but life in general. The fact that they don't directly tackle religion doesn't mean that a student will not gain the reasoning skills to tackle religion on their own.

3 of the 10 Republican hopefuls dont believe in evolution

Comments