Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

phog · 19-01-2021 4:01pm

Festive Life wrote: »

How many refs do you actually not have a problem with?
You never dont have a gripe and its primarily when your side loses.
You think you know what poor refereeing is so what would you like done to change/improve refereeing performances?

We had this conversation a few weeks ago on Twitter and once again like you did over there you're making false claims.

You might be better off ignoring me rather than how you currently react to my posts here or my tweets.

aloooof · 19-01-2021 4:05pm

phog wrote: »

Some things never change

That's not entirely true, phog. The username, with a new re-reg date changes.

Lost Ormond · 19-01-2021 4:06pm

phog wrote: »

We had this conversation a few weeks ago on Twitter and once again like you did over there you're making false claims.

You might be better off ignoring me rather than how you currently react to my posts here or my tweets.

I didnt make any false claims. I gave examples of your whining and where you were incorrect.
Refs always are making mistakes. Never cannot. You complain all the time saying refs are poor. if you know so much on what theyre doing wrong(which you dont) then surely you have the solution to improve officials.
Officials are easy targets for the game’s cowards looking to shift the blame onto someone else
What would you change to improve officiating?

theVersatile · 19-01-2021 4:14pm

aloooof wrote: »

That's not entirely true, phog. The username, with a new re-reg date changes.

Don't forget the generic Simpsons avatar

phog · 19-01-2021 5:22pm

Festive Life wrote: »

I didnt make any false claims. I gave examples of your whining and where you were incorrect.
Refs always are making mistakes. Never cannot. You complain all the time saying refs are poor. if you know so much on what theyre doing wrong(which you dont) then surely you have the solution to improve officials.
Officials are easy targets for the game’s cowards looking to shift the blame onto someone else
What would you change to improve officiating?

For my sanity and the sanity of others who want to enjoy this thread, I'll give you the last word.

molloyjh · 19-01-2021 5:25pm

phog wrote: »

For my sanity and the sanity of others who want to enjoy this thread, I'll give you the last word.

giphy.gif?cid=6c09b952kvhlvnekxyv85nss7hj50e9rtd15u8xg2zzfgh2j&rid=giphy.gif

thomond2006 · 19-01-2021 5:33pm

I mean, I was joking...

molloyjh · 19-01-2021 7:11pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

I mean, I was joking...

I hope this serves as a reminder of what jokes can do and you think long and hard about your actions.

Positiveways · 19-01-2021 7:47pm

Lots of the discussion in today's Munster presser with JVG, about what many perceive as Munster's blunt and abrasive style of rugby. JVG not surprisingly defending his methods and had a go at Leinster too, suggesting that Leinster use some of Munster's tactics.

I have lost a lot of love for Munster in the last number of years. I distaste our brute force game and over use of the one out runners, and box kicks. Its not fun watching Munster play like this. We have had enough of this narrow and insipid gameplan that is just plain boring to watch under the latter years of Schmidtball re Ireland.

I know that the results suggest that Munster are doing things right. I just think that if the southern province are to take the next step in progressing their game forward, IMO Larkham needs to have more influence on the team and I just feel that JVG underappreciates the Australian. I personally believe that Larkham is the real deal and has improved the handling skills of the team in general. But once again we see for far too often, very little involvement of our wingers and very few powerplays because they are not getting enough ball. TBH it will be a great day if JVG leaves the Munster head coach role, don't think he is offering much otherwise.

I might be very pessimistic, but as we saw with Erasmus, admittedly for one season, that we're fine in reaching semi-finals in Europe and finals domestically, but always seem to fall at the final hurdle. There is no problem playing direct rugby at times, especially in poor weather. But when we see Murray box kicking in the opposition 22 and constantly relying on our "power-game", then that's a real problem. That will work against cannon fodder. But as we saw in the pro14 semi final against Leinster, that's constant trying to bulldoze and play attritional rugby will simply not work.

Time will tell, but I really think that we will come unstuck against the bigger clubs and I can guarantee that we will not beat Leinster this Saturday, unless we decide that we abandon this negative game plan. Very disappointing press conference from JVG, no sign that Munster are going to change to a more positive and creative way of playing, certainly until JVG leaves his coaching role with the southern province.

theVersatile · 19-01-2021 7:57pm

*Heavy eye roll*

Positiveways · 19-01-2021 8:01pm

theVersatile wrote: »

*Heavy eye roll*

Question I ask for you theVersatile, do you think that Munster are playing an attractive brand of rugby at present?? I guess with your 3 word post that you and I know the answer to that question.

The Inbetween is mine · 19-01-2021 8:11pm

Positiveways wrote: »

Question I ask for you theVersatile, do you think that Munster are playing an attractive brand of rugby at present?? I guess with your 3 word post that you and I know the answer to that question.

You could have hung around long enough for him to answer ffs

Lost Ormond · 19-01-2021 8:16pm

Positiveways wrote: »

Lots of the discussion in today's Munster presser with JVG, about what many perceive as Munster's blunt and abrasive style of rugby. JVG not surprisingly defending his methods and had a go at Leinster too, suggesting that Leinster use some of Munster's tactics.

I have lost a lot of love for Munster in the last number of years. I distaste our brute force game and over use of the one out runners, and box kicks. Its not fun watching Munster play like this. We have had enough of this narrow and insipid gameplan that is just plain boring to watch under the latter years of Schmidtball re Ireland.

I know that the results suggest that Munster are doing things right. I just think that if the southern province are to take the next step in progressing their game forward, IMO Larkham needs to have more influence on the team and I just feel that JVG underappreciates the Australian. I personally believe that Larkham is the real deal and has improved the handling skills of the team in general. But once again we see for far too often, very little involvement of our wingers and very few powerplays because they are not getting enough ball. TBH it will be a great day if JVG leaves the Munster head coach role, don't think he is offering much otherwise.

I might be very pessimistic, but as we saw with Erasmus, admittedly for one season, that we're fine in reaching semi-finals in Europe and finals domestically, but always seem to fall at the final hurdle. There is no problem playing direct rugby at times, especially in poor weather. But when we see Murray box kicking in the opposition 22 and constantly relying on our "power-game", then that's a real problem. That will work against cannon fodder. But as we saw in the pro14 semi final against Leinster, that's constant trying to bulldoze and play attritional rugby will simply not work.

Time will tell, but I really think that we will come unstuck against the bigger clubs and I can guarantee that we will not beat Leinster this Saturday, unless we decide that we abandon this negative game plan. Very disappointing press conference from JVG, no sign that Munster are going to change to a more positive and creative way of playing, certainly until JVG leaves his coaching role with the southern province.

I wouldnt say Munster will definitely not win against Leinster at the weekend.
I think its clear that Larkhams coaching is much more evident now than it had been so either Van Grann is giving him more responsilbility/letting him do more or the players are getting what he is doing far more than they were.
There was plenty of times when Munster were successful that the rugby was far from pretty. It was very effective but wasnt easy on eye at times.
You say give Larkham more influence but what would you change other than getting wingers more involved,
What is this more positive, creative way of playing that would be more suited to the player pool Munster have?

theVersatile wrote: »

*Heavy eye roll*

Whats wrong with what was posted? Can you address any of the points made?

aloooof · 19-01-2021 9:08pm

Festive Life wrote: »

Whats wrong with what was posted? Can you address any of the points made?

I'd say the main thing is that it's just largely inaccurate.

He mentioned no power plays; we scored 2 tries that were straight off the training ground against Clermont.

He mentioned not getting wingers involved. In the Connacht game, we had a powerplay that nearly put Earls clean thru, for example. In regular phase play, on about the 8th phase, Stander passed to KOB, who pulled it back to JJH who got it to Earls beyond the edge.

Check out the last try against Cardiff; it's as a good a try as you're likely to see this season and I don't think we'd have scored a try like that last season. We've even had a pop pass from Archer off the deck this season. There's been clear and obvious evolution towards a more expansive and creative direction this season, imo.

Lost Ormond · 19-01-2021 9:35pm

aloooof wrote: »

I'd say the main thing is that it's just largely inaccurate.

He mentioned no power plays; we scored 2 tries that were straight off the training ground against Clermont.

He mentioned not getting wingers involved. In the Connacht game, we had a powerplay that nearly put Earls clean thru, for example. In regular phase play, on about the 8th phase, Stander passed to KOB, who pulled it back to JJH who got it to Earls beyond the edge.

Check out the last try against Cardiff; it's as a good a try as you're likely to see this season and I don't think we'd have scored a try like that last season. We've even had a pop pass from Archer off the deck this season. There's been clear and obvious evolution towards a more expansive and creative direction this season, imo.

Thanks. That at least goes into some detail of what youre on about

I totally agree with you that there has been a clear evolution in how Munster shape themselves up and think about how they will attack the space.

theVersatile · 20-01-2021 12:04am

Festive Life wrote: »

Whats wrong with what was posted? Can you address any of the points made?

Positiveways wrote: »

Question I ask for you theVersatile, do you think that Munster are playing an attractive brand of rugby at present?? I guess with your 3 word post that you and I know the answer to that question.

A few others have touched in with points, but I'll give my view given it's request and in the interest of furthering conversation. Apologies as well Festive about that dig earlier.

Obviously rugby is fairly subjective as to what is considered attractive. There are those out there who find enjoyment in even scrums (mind I haven't quite reached that level yet). However, the general things people look for in attractive rugby would be offloading, backline moves, strike plays, and tempo. I believe that since the start of this season, we have been steadily improving the quality of our rugby in implementing these aspects of our game. I think we are a far cry from the ten man up-the-jumper rugby associated with "traditional" Munster rugby, and while forward play and grit remain core elements of our game (as it does with many teams - a forwards game is not an exclusively Munster characteristic, see Exeter), we have made much advances in the way of "attractiveness".

Comparing Munster's style of play to Schmidtball is a bit insulting. Sure there have been times such as the Benetton playoff game where things seemed fairly dire, but this season we have seemed only to revert to "brute force" when the conditions require us to do so. Even then, it's not 10 man rugby. Our centres and full-back (albeit as a by-product of a kick-focused game) get heavily involved in plays. Games which saw the emergence of Coombes and Casey as potential senior starters among others was thanks to our ability to play the ball expansively with offloads, tip-ons, strike plays, and so on. A quick look at the Pro14 stats page shows Mike Haley as having fifth most offloads in the league, ahead of Sweetnam (yes surprising) and Coombes. If scenes of Coombes and Aherne making linebreaks earlier in the season aren't indicitive of a wider gameplan, I don't know what to say.

JJ is 24th in the league for kicks in play, with Casey in tied 19th (alongside Harry Byrne). Cooney and Carty are first and third respectively. Munster as a team are 9th in kicks from hand and 10th in kick metres. Any suggestion of a conservative gameplan this season is media bs as far as I'm concerned - and I find it a bit worrying that people are going against what's in front of their eyes on the screen to follow on with this media narrative. People love to peddle on about how we aren't making enough of our wingers, but we certainly seem to have gotten a lot more out of Andrew Conway in the past two years than Ireland have (going back to Schmidtball comparisons.)

Considering the progress we've made, I'd be insulted to hear someone say that it will be a "great day" when JVG leaves. It's also annoying to hear someone saying that a targeted game-plan of kicking and playing upfront against the likes of Leinster simply "doesn't work", using the semi-final as evidence. The closest we got to beating Leinster was two weeks prior to that, in a game we should've won, using them exact tactics. Saracens also dismantled Leinster with the same tactics not long afterwards.

That said, the one thing I would agree on is seeing this combined with the more progressive style we've been working on up until now. We don't want a repeat of that Benetton match in Thomond. But there's no point in being in denial to the development which has occurred over the last number of weeks. Take a review of the Munster's Pro14 So Far Video if you need a refresher. A solid mix of our core DNA forward dominance with the flash shown in the likes of Cardiff, Zebre, and Dragons to name a few.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p06tcvGCaZE&ab_channel=MunsterRugby

Here's the Pro14 stats page if you want to cross examine anything I've said.

https://www.pro14.rugby/statistics

Of course, as I said at the start, enjoyment of rugby attractiveness is subjective. So Positiveways (slightly ironic username but we'll move past that - you did mention yourself that maybe you're just pessimistic), if you honestly believe we don't play great rugby and that JVG be shown the door, that's fair. But take a look at the way our game has changed, have a look at the stats, and take media narratives with a pinch of salt. I think the progress is obvious, but alas if you think it's boring schlock we will just have to agree to disagree.

theVersatile · 20-01-2021 12:10am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9azdGD8nh0&ab_channel=MunsterRugby

I'm also including the link to the Zebre game as that review video leaves out two great tries - Sweetnam before halftime off a lineout strike and French in the corner after a Coombes offload out the back door (yes, I know the context of the game was that have of Zebre's team was basically Italian AIL players, but you can only play what's infront of you and it shows increased ambition to play with flair compared to the aforementioned Benetton playoff game in Thomond).

One thing I forgot to add was that all of this is with our second and third choice outhalves, who in my opinion anyways are far more systematic than the missing first choice, Joey (not to say that Healy and Hanrahan lack flair, but looking back at Joey's Munster highlights and he really was the real deal when he was fit). Imagine the further strides we can make with the potential future Irish 10 at the wheels.

Caranica · 20-01-2021 12:41am

Conway in training gallery pics today, no bib.

https://www.munsterrugby.ie/gallery/leinster-preparations-19-01-21/#nanogallery/my_nanogallery/0/18

theVersatile · 20-01-2021 12:46am

Cian Hurley, sub academy backrow, also with the squad.

leakyboots · 20-01-2021 1:25am

Super posts theVersatile

phog · 22-01-2021 12:57pm

Munster team for tomorrow night

Munster: Mike Haley; Keith Earls, Chris Farrell, Damian de Allende, Shane Daly; JJ Hanrahan, Conor Murray; James Cronin, Rhys Marshall, John Ryan; Jean Kleyn, Tadhg Beirne; Gavin Coombes, Peter O’Mahony (C), CJ Stander.

Replacements: Niall Scannell, Dave Kilcoyne, Stephen Archer, Fineen Wycherley, Jack O’Donoghue, Craig Casey, Ben Healy, Rory Scannell.

Dubinusa · 22-01-2021 3:56pm

Should be a great match. Great opportunity for Munster as I think Leinster have been a little off this season.
Disappointing for KOB, he must be a little pissed off. But Scannell has a chance to get into the national team.
Interesting to see that Daly is back in! I had though he had fallen down the pecking order as Haley has been prominent lately.

costacorta · 22-01-2021 4:05pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

Should be a great match. Great opportunity for Munster as I think Leinster have been a little off this season.
Disappointing for KOB, he must be a little pissed off. But Scannell has a chance to get into the national team.
Interesting to see that Daly is back in! I had though he had fallen down the pecking order as Haley has been prominent lately.

I’d love to see Daly at FB as think he would be better than Haley .

phog · 22-01-2021 4:34pm

costacorta wrote: »

I’d love to see Daly at FB as think he would be better than Haley .

Where do you see Daly being better than Haley? I'm thinking Daly wouldn't be in the 23 if Conway was selected.

case885 · 22-01-2021 4:58pm

phog wrote: »

Where do you see Daly being better than Haley? I'm thinking Daly wouldn't be in the 23 if Conway was selected.

Daly would surely get ahead of scannell as he covers wing, centre fullback. Scannell is too limited a player to be in our first choice 23 imo.

Kirk Van Houten · 22-01-2021 5:18pm

case885 wrote: »

Daly would surely get ahead of scannell as he covers wing, centre fullback. Scannell is too limited a player to be in our first choice 23 imo.

Despite what most fans think Larkham seems to hold Rory Scannell in high regard.

aloooof · 22-01-2021 5:18pm

CJ's 150th cap 2moro. He's been some player for us, in fairness...

schmoo2k · 22-01-2021 6:13pm

aloooof wrote: »

CJ's 150th cap 2moro. He's been some player for us, in fairness...

Anyone tally how many MOMs he has?

The Inbetween is mine · 22-01-2021 6:21pm

schmoo2k wrote: »

Anyone tally how many MOMs he has?

162

costacorta · 22-01-2021 6:22pm

phog wrote: »

Where do you see Daly being better than Haley? I'm thinking Daly wouldn't be in the 23 if Conway was selected.

I just think Daly would be better suited to FB , He has strength, speed can tackle and played and toured with Ireland 7s but has been unlucky with injury. He needs to get a few runs to show this of course and you are right in saying he is probably 23 if Conway is available but I think his future is as a FB .

Richie_Rich89 · 22-01-2021 6:28pm

costacorta wrote: »

I just think Daly would be better suited to FB , He has strength, speed can tackle and played and toured with Ireland 7s but has been unlucky with injury. He needs to get a few runs to show this of course and you are right in saying he is probably 23 if Conway is available but I think his future is as a FB .

He was ahead of Haley for the last Ireland squad.

Cookiemunster · 22-01-2021 6:31pm

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

He was ahead of Haley for the last Ireland squad.

Was he picked ahead of Haley for the Ireland squad? He's played most of his rugby on the wing for Munster and made his Ireland cameo on the wing. At FB he's behind Haley at Munster.

aloooof · 22-01-2021 6:34pm

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

He was ahead of Haley for the last Ireland squad.

Doesn't necessarily mean he's ahead of Haley at FB for Munster tho; he's far more versatile than Haley who just covers FB. He made his Ireland debut coming on for Earls on the wing, for example.

EDIT: What cookiemunster said.

Richie_Rich89 · 22-01-2021 6:43pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Was he picked ahead of Haley for the Ireland squad? He's played most of his rugby on the wing for Munster and made his Ireland cameo on the wing. At FB he's behind Haley at Munster.

His selection for Ireland came off the back of appearances at 15 after the return.

Haley might have been injured at the time, admittedly.

Think I'd go for Stockdale, Larmour, Keenan, Earls, Jimmy O'Brien and Daly as back three players in the upcoming international squad selection.

Sabre0001 · 22-01-2021 6:53pm

Haley can be a little frustrating with his consistency, sometimes within the one break. Definitely flashes of what he can do though. Looking forward to seeing more of Daly too. He was a little off with his kick-chases in a recent game, just mistimed things. Might get plenty of practice this weekend though! Hopefully all OK with Conway.

Would have liked to see KOB in the 23; think he has really embraced this new style of play that Munster has gone for. Might not be a night for his flashy hands though

Unsure about Scannell at 23 at this stage. Has the potential to act as second playmaker, but see him used as a crash ball option far too often (with a bigger option on his outside). When his kicks are on point, they're great for pinning teams back, but puts a few astray as well.

Should be an interesting game...that I'll be watching between my fingers!

shootermacg · 22-01-2021 7:10pm

Scannell is a terrible sub. Scannell came on against Connacht and almost gave them the game, that type of pissfoolary should be punished.

aloooof · 22-01-2021 7:26pm

shootermacg wrote: »

Scannell is a terrible sub. Scannell came on against Connacht and almost gave them the game, that type of pissfoolary should be punished.

I think that's slightly harsh tbh. He was carded for multiple infringements. He was borderline for turning it over, which if he had done, Munster may have seen the game out fairly comfortably.

It was also 77 mins and 16-3 when he got the yellow. We still should have seen it out more comfortably than we did.

Caranica · 22-01-2021 7:54pm

I would prefer to see Conway on the wing and Daly at 23. We've got cover for 10 on the bench so Scannell is poor value for a bench spot.

theVersatile · 23-01-2021 10:42pm

Better team lost that. Murray, POM, Beirne, Coombes excellent. Cronin and Marshall penalties costly, not to mention John Joe's boot. DDA very busy again - hope the drop ball isn't held against him too much (same with Tadhg). JOD looked lovely when he came on too - added a bit of pace to the back row. Daly and Haley did well in what they did. Dropping O'Byrne probably wrong in hindsight.

cantwbr1 · 23-01-2021 10:44pm

theVersatile wrote: »

Better team lost that. Murray, POM, Beirne, Coombes excellent. Cronin and Marshall penalties costly, not to mention John Joe's boot. DDA very busy again - hope the drop ball isn't held against him too much (same with Tadhg). JOD looked lovely when he came on too - added a bit of pace to the back row. Daly and Haley did well in what they did. Dropping O'Byrne probably wrong in hindsight.

The best team is always the one ahead at the final whistle.

Not being able to score for 70 minutes win very few games

The Inbetween is mine · 23-01-2021 10:46pm

cantwbr1 wrote: »

The best team is always the one ahead at the final whistle.

Not being able to score for 70 minutes win very few games

Eh?

budhabob · 23-01-2021 11:01pm

I think KoB is comfortably our best 2on form & consistency for some time now. he needs to be starting the big games

letowski · 23-01-2021 11:04pm

budhabob wrote: »

I think KoB is comfortably our best 2on form & consistency for some. he needs to be starting the big games

There has to be questions why Munster's best hooker, probably of the last 2 years being honest, was left out of this game. It was costly.

aloooof · 23-01-2021 11:37pm

cantwbr1 wrote: »

The best team is always the one ahead at the final whistle.

Well that’s just not true. In any sport. And is, in a large sense, the beauty of sport.

thomond2006 · 23-01-2021 11:47pm

letowski wrote: »

There has to be questions why Munster's best hooker, probably of the last 2 years being honest, was left out of this game. It was costly.

KOB had a knock in training apparently, he was unavailable.

theVersatile · 24-01-2021 12:11am

thomond2006 wrote: »

KOB had a knock in training apparently, he was unavailable.

Ah I see - team selectors blameless so. Couldn't have happened at a worse time for him.

Sabre0001 · 24-01-2021 11:23am

Frustrating is the only way to sum that one up.

Did some of the hard work well, but lineout misfiring at crucial times and a poor pen miss made life very difficult for ourselves. Maul was looking good, but wasn't given the opportunity to shine close to the line. Considering how Leinster's lineout has creaked at times, I don't know why we didn't contest more, especially close to their line.

Leinster showed why they're champs - could have settled for kicking ball out at HT, but changed mind with the pen awarded and were rewarded with 3 points. The cliche of a game of inches rang true there. Took try well and it's one where you make your own luck - lineout could have been straighter, ball bobbled up nicely despite half blocked, and finished well.

Murray and Beirne looked good. Wingers not given the ball again (unless it was O'Mahony on the wing) - not a night for it, even though we did try to play at times. Would have liked Healy to grab the game by the scruff of the neck when he came on, but it's a learning experience. Casey's box kicking not as pinpoint as Murray's, but at that stage, we should have been trying something different, which Casey typically brings.

Defence was aggressive, although some silly pens and missed tackles let them make easy ground, and can be very happy with holding Leinster out on the line - doesn't happen often.

At the end of the day though, it's another loss. Learning experiences and showing that we can hang with Leinster are well and good, but we need a win and not just when they send their (admittedly talented) childers to Thomond.

yerrahbah · 24-01-2021 12:41pm

Familiar feeling of losing to Leinster.

But normally we get played off the park, this one has a feeling of we left it behind us.

Lineout malfunctioned badly.

JJ's kick on halftime was a tricky one, if that goes wide instead of hitting the post then HT is 10-3 rather than 10-6. Small margins

Murray was really good and the box-kick is still an important weapon to us, Caseys box kicks were off when he came on

DDA is a class act

Healy seemed to spend a lot of time in rucks when he came on when we could have used in running the backline.

A bit devoid of ideas in the 2nd half, Leinster just stood off us and waited for us to make a mistake

Anyway, Benneton next week who have been having an awful season

Caranica · 24-01-2021 3:12pm

Discipline was also an issue again. We gave away some idiotic penalties.

Clegg · 24-01-2021 4:17pm

Caranica wrote: »

Discipline was also an issue again. We gave away some idiotic penalties.

James Cronin had a shocker last night on that front. Think he gave away three pens out of your overall nine conceded

Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

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