Competence required to be executed in Indiana

...Ghost... · 12-01-2021 12:21pm #1

Article

Saw this on RTE news. So, if on death row, you need to be competent in order to be executed? WTF!

I don't agree with capital punishment, but that's not the argument here. The woman in this case killed an 8 month pregnant woman and cut the baby from her womb. Apparently the baby survived. I wouldn't expect anyone on death row has good mental health, so why is this case different? The murder itself sound really gruesome.

Birneybau · 12-01-2021 12:28pm

In no way defending Lisa Montgomery but she had one of the worst lives I've ever read, failed by the authorities every step of her life.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/05/lisa-montgomery-death-row-execution-history

Pythagorean · 12-01-2021 12:45pm

After reading the Guardian piece on Montgomery, I believe execution is an unwarranted punishment.

suicide_circus · 12-01-2021 12:50pm

If she's profoundly mentally ill and was unaware of the gravity of her actions at the time, she shouldn't even be in regular prison

seamus · 12-01-2021 1:09pm

Execution itself is barbaric enough, surely you see how executing someone who is incapable of understanding what's happening, is another step down again?

Eric Cartman · 12-01-2021 1:12pm

Birneybau wrote: »

In no way defending Lisa Montgomery but she had one of the worst lives I've ever read, failed by the authorities every step of her life.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/05/lisa-montgomery-death-row-execution-history

An absolutely harrowing story , but in no way excuses the absolute horror she committed against that woman and her baby.

If she did in any of her family or her dads friends id say she deserves a medal but this was a completely innocent woman who suffered.

mental health might explain heinous crimes, it doesn't excuse them though, and this idea that people should serve less of a sentence for mental health is abhorrent.

Lumen · 12-01-2021 1:24pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

An absolutely harrowing story , but in no way excuses the absolute horror she committed against that woman and her baby.

If she did in any of her family or her dads friends id say she deserves a medal but this was a completely innocent woman who suffered.

mental health might explain heinous crimes, it doesn't excuse them though, and this idea that people should serve less of a sentence for mental health is abhorrent.

It's amazing to me that someone could read that story and go, "ah sure, it's bad and all, but go ahead and kill her anyway".

randd1 · 12-01-2021 1:31pm

Lumen wrote: »

It's amazing to me that someone could read that story and go, "ah sure, it's bad and all, but go ahead and kill her anyway".

Given her life and her crimes, the absolute cynic might suggest that perhaps it might put and end to both her suffering and the risk she poses to others.

osarusan · 12-01-2021 1:36pm

...Ghost... wrote: »

Article

Saw this on RTE news. So, if on death row, you need to be competent in order to be executed? WTF!

More to the point is that you need to be considered competent to even stand trial in the first place.

I don't see where the WTF comes into it, the concept of being considered not responsible/guilty due to mental defect or insanity is pretty common knowledge I would have thought.

Whether it applies in this particular case is another question.

Eric Cartman · 12-01-2021 1:37pm

Lumen wrote: »

It's amazing to me that someone could read that story and go, "ah sure, it's bad and all, but go ahead and kill her anyway".

I don't think theres any reasoning in the world you could give me to justify somebody violently cutting a baby out of a heavily pregnant woman that wouldn't have me wishing death upon them.

Lumen · 12-01-2021 1:42pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I don't think theres any reasoning in the world you could give me to justify somebody violently cutting a baby out of a heavily pregnant woman that wouldn't have me wishing death upon them.

Maybe you should spend less time fantasising about death.

listermint · 12-01-2021 1:44pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I don't think theres any reasoning in the world you could give me to justify somebody violently cutting a baby out of a heavily pregnant woman that wouldn't have me wishing death upon them.

Have you considered you hold on to alot of anger and very little humanity or reasoning.

Although I've found this very prevalent in much of your contributions.

There's a case for prison for life meaning exactly that and permanently that.

12-01-2021 1:46pm

What a tragic story.
Has she expressed any remorse? Capable? Is she still a risk?
Jasis. The poor woman.

Execution is an unnecessary punishment in this case, but depending on her mental condition, is there an argument that its more euthanasia to end her suffering.

If anyone should be executed its the public officers and doctor who failed her:

Then there was the doctor in Oklahoma who examined her as a child, learnt about the regular rapes – but did nothing about it. The child welfare office whom Montgomery’s mother, Judy, informed about the sexual abuse – but did nothing about it. And the family court judge who presided at the parents’ divorce who actually scolded Judy for failing to report the rape of her daughter to police – but then himself did absolutely nothing about it.

Wesekn. · 12-01-2021 1:49pm

listermint wrote: »

Have you considered you hold on to alot of anger and very little humanity or reasoning.

Although I've found this very prevalent in much of your contributions.

There's a case for prison for life meaning exactly that and permanently that.

Cheaper too than the death penalty LWP

Death penalty is an outdated practice to my mind, harks to the days of the mob and mob justice

hynesie08 · 12-01-2021 1:50pm

It's a heartbreaking story, from every level, that poor woman's life was ****ed from an early age, she really never had a chance.

But what she did is so inhumane that I really struggle with any sort of sympathy.....

I would need to see a more detailed breakdown, does she have a history of violence, did the baby's father call for the death sentence among other things, but I'm really not seeing what the point of the death sentence is in this case. It's not a deterrent, it's not a punishment...... I don't know.

seamus · 12-01-2021 1:53pm

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Execution is an unnecessary punishment in this case, but depending on her mental condition, is there an argument that its more euthanasia to end her suffering.

I don't in principle have any issue with euthanasia as a thing, but it shouldn't be used just because it's convenient in this case to kill two birds with one stone.

Euthanising incompetent individuals is really grey ground, for obvious reasons.

I would much rather she is treated (in a maximum security facility) as much as possible to bring her to a point where she may be competent. And then to be assessed on an ongoing basis to determine whether she continues to be a grave public risk.
Before ultimately deciding if she should be conditionally released or retried.

Nermal · 12-01-2021 1:57pm

We cannot reliably tell who is insane and who is not.

It's not a term or concept that should have a place within the criminal justice system.

Our society only functions properly when we are held responsible for our actions, regardless of our mental state or upbringing.

Wesekn. · 12-01-2021 1:58pm

Nermal wrote: »

We cannot reliably tell who is insane and who is not.

It's not a term or concept that should have a place within the criminal justice system.

Our society only functions properly when we are held responsible for our actions, regardless of our mental state or upbringing.

That would be incorrect

Lumen · 12-01-2021 1:59pm

hynesie08 wrote: »

It's a heartbreaking story, from every level, that poor woman's life was ****ed from an early age, she really never had a chance.

But what she did is so inhumane that I really struggle with any sort of sympathy.....

I would need to see a more detailed breakdown, does she have a history of violence, did the baby's father call for the death sentence among other things, but I'm really not seeing what the point of the death sentence is in this case. It's not a deterrent, it's not a punishment...... I don't know.

The key is to hold two things in one's head at the same time:

- Very bad things were done to her
- She did very bad things to other people

...and not force oneself to minimize one in order to fully embrace the other.

And then consider the available options:

- Execute her
- Keep her in jail where she poses little risk to others
- ...rehabilitation/treatment?

...and decide which results in a less bad outcome.

I don't know enough about the case over and above that Guardian article, but I generally find it uplifting to read about cases of rehabilitation of serious offenders, including where that person dies in jail but is able to have some kind of positive effect on those around them. We don't have to celebrate those outcomes, just recognise that some goodness can come out of a life filled with horror.

But even if no treatment or rehabilitation is possible, it is still better to keep people in jail than kill them, because killing people is always bad.

Strumms · 12-01-2021 2:07pm

I believe life is a right. I also believe you abdicate or should abdicate your right to life if you conclusively remove somebody else’s ability to be alive.

If it can be proven beyond all conclusive and reasonable doubt that you are of sound mental capacity when committing the act, but you had an argument with the wife / husband, drove to the supermarket, you clipped another car while parking, an argument ensued.... you in the heat of the moment produced a knife, stabbed the other person....

Why should you be permitted to remain living ?

You get 25 years, do 20 ? It costs approximately 68,000 per year to incarcerate somebody.

It will cost the state up to 1.36 million, in total to incarcerate them. To incarcerate one person for 20 years.

By virtue of the person committing a heinous crime... 1.36 million for incarceration...

Kraftwerk · 12-01-2021 2:08pm

The death penalty shouldn't be an option.

But according to the guardian article the back story about the abuse and torture came from interviews with the woman herself. I see there was a report by the mother that she was raped and it was ignored.

Just out of curiosity. If she's described as seriously mentally ill and capable of incredibly disturbing actions due to her illness then can a history based mostly on her own statements be credible as evidence? Even backed up by the report, the details and scale of the abuse is her story.

Does going down the road of pleading insanity etc render the defendants own testimony less credible? Seems a bit of a contradiction in a legal sense that you're arguing your client is not competent due to mental illness and using their own testimony as evidence of that lack of competence.

Wesekn. · 12-01-2021 2:08pm

Strumms wrote: »

I believe life is a right. I also believe you abdicate or should abdicate your right to life if you conclusively remove somebody else’s ability to be alive.

If it can be proven beyond all conclusive and reasonable doubt that you are of sound mental capacity, but you had an argument with the wife / husband, drove to the supermarket, you clipped another car while parking, an argument ensued.... you in the heat of the moment produced a knife, stabbed the other person....

Why should you be permitted to remain living ?

You get 25 years, do 20 ? It costs approximately 68,000 per year to incarcerate somebody.

It will cost the state up to 1.36 million, in total to incarcerate them. To incarcerate one person for 20 years.

By virtue of the person committing a heinous crime... 1.36 million for incarceration...

LWP is cheaper than death penalty in the US anyhow

Birneybau · 12-01-2021 2:12pm

If she is put to death, it's a profoundly desperate end to a profoundly desperate life.

CtevenSrowder · 12-01-2021 2:21pm

Birneybau wrote: »

In no way defending Lisa Montgomery but she had one of the worst lives I've ever read, failed by the authorities every step of her life.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/05/lisa-montgomery-death-row-execution-history

This is the bleeding heart Guardian/left-wingism at it's worse. No matter her up bringing murdering a women and cutting her baby from her womb makes her the 'worst of the worst', not the most 'broken of broken', like is suggested in the article.

I'm sorry, but I can't help get the feeling that if it was a male who did this he'd have ben executed by now.

Eric Cartman · 12-01-2021 2:25pm

Lumen wrote: »

Maybe you should spend less time fantasising about death.

There are bad people in this world, be it by birth or through traumatic incidents.

murderers of innocent people, serial killers, paedophiles, violent rapists, those who lunge at police with weapons. There is no other fair way to atone than death.

I dont spend any time fantasising about death, I just think the world has gone far too soft on violent criminals.

Lumen · 12-01-2021 2:27pm

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

This is the bleeding heart Guardian/left-wingism at it's worse. No matter her up bringing murdering a women and cutting her baby from her womb makes her the 'worst of the worst', not the most 'broken of broken', like is suggested in the article.

I'm sorry, but I can't help get the feeling that if it was a male who did this he'd have ben executed by now.

So she should be executed because...sexism?

Blazer · 12-01-2021 2:28pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

There are bad people in this world, be it by birth or through traumatic incidents.

murderers of innocent people, serial killers, paedophiles, violent rapists, those who lunge at police with weapons. There is no other fair way to atone than death.

I dont spend any time fantasising about death, I just think the world has gone far too soft on violent criminals.

There's a huge difference between a violent murdering criminal and someone like her.
A violent murdering criminal kills someone knowing full well what they are doing and still goes ahead and does it.
Someone who's been traumatized like she has been is probably fairly doubtful.
Generally I am for the death penalty..but not in this case.

CtevenSrowder · 12-01-2021 2:30pm

Lumen wrote: »

So she should be executed because...sexism?

Because that is the law there and sentence handed down. I'm personally opposed to the death penalty myself, and would like to see it overturned, but it hasn't been yet.

Birneybau · 12-01-2021 2:32pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

There are bad people in this world, be it by birth or through traumatic incidents.

murderers of innocent people, serial killers, paedophiles, violent rapists, those who lunge at police with weapons. There is no other fair way to atone than death.

I dont spend any time fantasising about death, I just think the world has gone far too soft on violent criminals.

Christ almighty

Beasty · 12-01-2021 2:34pm

Thread title updated to reflect the story

emmalynn19 · 12-01-2021 2:36pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I don't think theres any reasoning in the world you could give me to justify somebody violently cutting a baby out of a heavily pregnant woman that wouldn't have me wishing death upon them.

You really are an appalling human being

banie01 · 12-01-2021 2:37pm

What is the purpose of a death sentence?
Other than killing the convicted of course.

It does not deter.
It is expensive and it throttles court systems.
It also is debatable as to whether it is actually a punishment.

I do believe that imprisonment should be a reformatory process.
That doesn't mean that every person convicted of a heinous crime is eventually released.
Not at all, some people are too dangerous to be released, some are also too ill.
But that doesn't mean that we can impose a death sentence and then enter the rinse and repeat appeal cycle, it should mean we endeavour to convict and jail those guilty.
That where treatment is more appropriate than imprisonment that we ensure that happens.

Every time the debate arises, we seem to split along the same lines.
We have international obligations that preclude Ireland from reinstitution of the Death penalty here.
But..
And I say this as someone currently immersed in studying the criminal justice system and recidivism in particular.
It has absolutely zero tangible benefits to society that isn't totalitarian.

ELM327 · 12-01-2021 2:38pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

An absolutely harrowing story , but in no way excuses the absolute horror she committed against that woman and her baby.

If she did in any of her family or her dads friends id say she deserves a medal but this was a completely innocent woman who suffered.

mental health might explain heinous crimes, it doesn't excuse them though, and this idea that people should serve less of a sentence for mental health is abhorrent.

I agree.
Her acts deserve the death penalty and we should have similar here.

ELM327 · 12-01-2021 2:39pm

banie01 wrote: »

What is the purpose of a death sentence?
Other than killing the convicted of course.

It does not deter.
It is expensive and it throttles court systems.
It also is debatable as to whether it is actually a punishment.

I do believe that imprisonment should be a reformatory process.
That doesn't mean that every person convicted of a heinous crime is eventually released.
Not at all, some people are too dangerous to be released, some are also too ill.
But that doesn't mean that we can impose a death sentence and then enter the rinse and repeat appeal cycle, it should mean we endeavour to convict and jail those guilty.
That where treatment is more appropriate than imprisonment that we ensure that happens.

Every time the debate arises, we seem to split along the same lines.
We have international obligations that preclude Ireland from reinstitution of the Death penalty here.
But..
And I say this as someone currently immersed in studying the criminal justice system and recidivism in particular.
It has absolutely zero tangible benefits to society that isn't totalitarian.

It's a punishment. It costs less than life without parole (the sentence one step down), and I do think it is a deterrent.

I don't subscribe to the belief that prison is for reform. It's not. It's to pay the cost for what you have done. A punishment. And the harshest punishment is death.

Zookey123 · 12-01-2021 2:41pm

ELM327 wrote: »

I agree.
Her acts deserve the death penalty and we should have similar here.

And everyone here is shocked that you of all people share this opinion!

RWCNT · 12-01-2021 2:42pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

There are bad people in this world, be it by birth or through traumatic incidents.

murderers of innocent people, serial killers, paedophiles, violent rapists, those who lunge at police with weapons. There is no other fair way to atone than death.

I dont spend any time fantasising about death, I just think the world has gone far too soft on violent criminals.

You sound like you've read too many Punisher comics tbh. Just because you have a strange preoccupation with brutal revenge doesn't mean death is the only suitable punishment for the crimes you list. It doesn't reverse any of the damage done.

Thankfully, most people do not agree and view the death penalty is rightly as abominable. Outlawed in all but one country in Europe as far as I know, I really hope the Americans get around to binning it off at some stage as well.

ELM327 · 12-01-2021 2:45pm

Zookey123 wrote: »

And everyone here is shocked that you of all people share this opinion!

I don't know you from adam so I don't appreciate your perceived notions as to what I would think.

Regardless of your ideas, this is the only logical decision to take.

Parabellum9 · 12-01-2021 2:52pm

Lumen wrote: »

It's amazing to me that someone could read that story and go, "ah sure, it's bad and all, but go ahead and kill her anyway".

I'm sure you'd have totally the same opinion if you were the husband of the woman she did that to...

No sympathy for her in the slightest, what she did was heinous and her mental faculties or lack of them are no excuse.

Zookey123 · 12-01-2021 2:53pm

ELM327 wrote: »

I don't know you from adam so I don't appreciate your perceived notions as to what I would think.

Regardless of your ideas, this is the only logical decision to take.

Oh It's not much a challenge to figure out what you think.

banie01 · 12-01-2021 2:54pm

ELM327 wrote: »

It's a punishment. It costs less than life without parole (the sentence one step down), and I do think it is a deterrent.

While you may think it's a deterrent, there is an overwhelming scientific consensus that it isn't.
https://www.law.ox.ac.uk/centres-institutes/centre-criminology/blog/2015/04/theres-no-evidence-death-penalty-acts-deterrent
That's an overview that will lead to further reading.

The most imprisoned nation per capita, is the US.
How is the death sentence working out for them?
The murder rate there per 100k is @5 with death penalty in many jurisdictions.
If the death penalty works?
Why is the comparable rate in Ireland 0.85 per 100k?
Or just 1.2 per 100k in the UK and Wales?
https://dataunodc.un.org/crime/intentional-homicide-victims

The deprivation of a convicts liberty is punishment.
The penal service can choose to ensure a path towards education and reform is available.
Or it can choose to dehumanise inmates, feed them, lock them, let them out an hour a day and otherwise throw away the key.

Dehumanisation is from the US example, clearly not working.
It's a broken penal system that operates on a huge degree of reoffending.
Don't hold it up as an example as anything other than what not to do.

Nermal · 12-01-2021 2:54pm

Blazer wrote: »

There's a huge difference between a violent murdering criminal and someone like her.
A violent murdering criminal kills someone knowing full well what they are doing and still goes ahead and does it.
Someone who's been traumatized like she has been is probably fairly doubtful.
Generally I am for the death penalty..but not in this case.

Everyone convicted of a crime warranting the death penalty has an excuse, a back story, a notion that they weren't 'in their right mind' at the time.

Are we responsible for our actions, or aren't we? It's a simple, binary choice.

banie01 wrote: »

It is expensive and it throttles court systems.

Whose fault is that?

Nermal · 12-01-2021 2:55pm

banie01 wrote: »

What is the purpose of a death sentence?

Justice.

hynesie08 · 12-01-2021 2:58pm

Nermal wrote: »

Justice.

For who?

banie01 · 12-01-2021 2:59pm

Nermal wrote: »

Whose fault is that?

Really? I suppose it would be Dev and McQuaid, but the original Constitutional committee of 1921 would carry a bit of the blame too.
As would the electorate that accepted the 1937 constitution and the guarantee of due process.

Is the convicted then to be denied any right of appeal?
Just take them to the CCC, convict them and shoot?

Due process is a cornerstone of fair and free society.
Juries aren't infallible, relying on a group of random citizens to come to a cogent and rational decision?
What if someone is convicted in error?
But your rush to deny due process to free up appeals courts means that just within the acceptable margin of error?

Nermal · 12-01-2021 3:01pm

hynesie08 wrote: »

For who?

Society.

listermint · 12-01-2021 3:04pm

ELM327 wrote: »

I don't know you from adam so I don't appreciate your perceived notions as to what I would think.

Regardless of your ideas, this is the only logical decision to take.

Ya ya and just like Eric , someone else can pull the trigger for you . Right.

Nermal · 12-01-2021 3:04pm

banie01 wrote: »

Is the convicted then to be denied any right of appeal?
Just take them to the CCC, convict them and shoot?

Due process is a cornerstone of fair and free society.
Juries aren't infallible, relying on a group of random citizens to come to a cogent and rational decision?
What if someone is convicted in error?
But your rush to deny due process to free up appeals courts means that just within the acceptable margin of error?

To call the circus that surrounds the death penalty in the US 'due process' is laughable. There's an entire industry designed to frustrate it's application. Of course it's expensive in those circumstances. Regardless: a price worth paying for justice.

Ashbourne hoop · 12-01-2021 3:07pm

The death penalty is abomination, should not be used anywhere in the year 2021. It is not about justice, purely about revenge. This woman's story is horrendous and it's clear that she should not have received the death penalty.

There hasn't been a federal execution in America since 2003, the fact that Trump is trying to push through a number of them before he leaves office says everything about him, particularly as he's pushing them though because Biden is opposed to the death penalty.

ELM327 · 12-01-2021 3:08pm

banie01 wrote: »

While you may think it's a deterrent, there is an overwhelming scientific consensus that it isn't.
https://www.law.ox.ac.uk/centres-institutes/centre-criminology/blog/2015/04/theres-no-evidence-death-penalty-acts-deterrent
That's an overview that will lead to further reading.

The most imprisoned nation per capita, is the US.
How is the death sentence working out for them?
The murder rate there per 100k is @5 with death penalty in many jurisdictions.
If the death penalty works?
Why is the comparable rate in Ireland 0.85 per 100k?
Or just 1.2 per 100k in the UK and Wales?
https://dataunodc.un.org/crime/intentional-homicide-victims

The deprivation of a convicts liberty is punishment.
The penal service can choose to ensure a path towards education and reform is available.
Or it can choose to dehumanise inmates, feed them, lock them, let them out an hour a day and otherwise throw away the key.

Dehumanisation is from the US example, clearly not working.
It's a broken penal system that operates on a huge degree of reoffending.
Don't hold it up as an example as anything other than what not to do.

No comment on the cost?

listermint wrote: »

Ya ya and just like Eric , someone else can pull the trigger for you . Right.

:rolleyes:

Do you take your trash to the tip yourself? Clean your own sewers? People are employed to do these things. I'd have no problem morally being an executioner, but such a profession is not available here and I can't really uproot my family to move to be one. I can't imagine the pay is great either

Nermal · 12-01-2021 3:08pm

listermint wrote: »

Ya ya and just like Eric , someone else can pull the trigger for you . Right.

Just because capital punishment has sometimes been carried out in the name revenge or bloodlust doesn't mean it always must be so.

CtevenSrowder · 12-01-2021 3:17pm

banie01 wrote: »

While you may think it's a deterrent, there is an overwhelming scientific consensus that it isn't.
https://www.law.ox.ac.uk/centres-institutes/centre-criminology/blog/2015/04/theres-no-evidence-death-penalty-acts-deterrent
That's an overview that will lead to further reading.

The most imprisoned nation per capita, is the US.
How is the death sentence working out for them?
The murder rate there per 100k is @5 with death penalty in many jurisdictions.
If the death penalty works?
Why is the comparable rate in Ireland 0.85 per 100k?
Or just 1.2 per 100k in the UK and Wales?
https://dataunodc.un.org/crime/intentional-homicide-victims

The deprivation of a convicts liberty is punishment.
The penal service can choose to ensure a path towards education and reform is available.
Or it can choose to dehumanise inmates, feed them, lock them, let them out an hour a day and otherwise throw away the key.

Dehumanisation is from the US example, clearly not working.
It's a broken penal system that operates on a huge degree of reoffending.
Don't hold it up as an example as anything other than what not to do.

There is also the problem with wrongful conviction that doesn't get realised in time.

Competence required to be executed in Indiana

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