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Air Corps SAR

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12467…25

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    #92
    Psychlops
    Registered Users Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    Blackhawks are a no no, as Don Lavery on Twitter said when he asked about them the response he got was along the lines of "They are too warlike".


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    #93
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,797 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Somebody should respond with a video of a Javelin missile in the Glen of Imaal and really give them something to cry about.

    For the record though, I think its unlikely that Ireland would buy a non-European aircraft, for all the usual reasons.


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    #94
    jonnybigwallet
    Registered Users Posts: 1,073 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    A few of them Apatches would come in a bit handy and all out in Syria Lebanon etc.


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    #95
    Dohvolle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,283 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Psychlops wrote: »
    Blackhawks are a no no, as Don Lavery on Twitter said when he asked about them the response he got was along the lines of "They are too warlike".

    They should have gone for the Sikorsky S70i so. It shares gearbox and drivetrain with the S92, and is assembled in Poland by PZL.


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    #96
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,226 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    jonnybigwallet wrote: »
    A few of them Apatches would come in a bit handy and all out in Syria Lebanon etc.

    [Mod]What is it with you and your non-constructive comments on this board?

    You are hereby directed to desist upon pain of banishment.[/Mod]


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    #97
    jonnybigwallet
    Registered Users Posts: 1,073 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    No offence meant old chap. I just have the simple view that the best way to improve the army navy and air corps is to acquire more lethal kit to bring the forces up to the standard of other European nations. For example a couple of frigates with VLS cells etc and some decent jet aircraft.


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    #98
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,797 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Some of us are trying to address this stuff seriously.


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    #99
    Psychlops
    Registered Users Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    jonnybigwallet wrote: »
    A few of them Apatches would come in a bit handy and all out in Syria Lebanon etc.


    Go back to bed lad.


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    #100
    Psychlops
    Registered Users Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    jonnybigwallet wrote: »
    No offence meant old chap. I just have the simple view




    Thats a fact, glad you know this.


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    #101
    MAULBROOK
    Registered Users Posts: 1,470 ✭✭✭MAULBROOK


    As i was reading through all of these posts R117 was flying over my house, IMO leave it as it is.


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    #102
    Heraldoffreeent
    Registered Users Posts: 1,467 ✭✭✭Heraldoffreeent


    Yiz are all being very harsh on jonney, where would Ireland be without it's Poets and Dreamers?

    Personally I welcome his contributions.
































































    Ah, I'm only messin!!


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    #103
    Psychlops
    Registered Users Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    MAULBROOK wrote: »
    As i was reading through all of these posts R117 was flying over my house, IMO leave it as it is.


    Training flight to Wicklow.


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    #104
    Dohvolle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,283 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    The Shannon and Waterford based heli both overfly my place on regular occasions, sometimed on training missions near the Gas rigs, sometimes to assist RNLI or Coast guard units searching the river. One thing they are not is stealthy. Can usually hear them when they are about 5 miles off.


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    #105
    jonnybigwallet
    Registered Users Posts: 1,073 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    May love and laughter light your days,

    and warm your heart and home.

    May good and faithful friends be yours,

    wherever you may roam.

    May peace and plenty bless your world

    with joy that long ensures.

    May all life's passing seasons bring the

    best to you and yours!

    ☘️
    JBW


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    #106
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,797 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Thats well said Jonny.

    We wish the very same to all our service personnel working hard at home and abroad. May they get the support they deserve.


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    #107
    Psychlops
    Registered Users Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    Air Corps goes from weakness to weakness..


    https://flyinginireland.com/2021/03/cae-to-train-irish-air-corps-pilots-in-the-usa/


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    #108
    Dohvolle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,283 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Maybe they can stay on and learn to fly a few surplus F16 while they are there?


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    #109
    Fritzbox
    Registered Users Posts: 488 ✭✭Fritzbox


    Psychlops wrote: »
    Air Corps goes from weakness to weakness..


    https://flyinginireland.com/2021/03/cae-to-train-irish-air-corps-pilots-in-the-usa/
    The decision to send Irish Air Corps Cadet Pilots overseas is due to a shortfall of instructors and maintenance personnel to support the Pilatus PC-9.


    But why is there a shortfall of instructors and fixers for just half a dozen PC-9s?

    The British, French and Germans can probably each keep a thousand aircraft flying each year: fast jets, transport, helicopters etc. People can be found and recruited, and the pay and conditions are usually deemed good enough.

    Why does the Air Corps have such a problem recruiting and retaining staff?


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    #110
    Stovepipe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    Money and bull****. Not enough, compared to what a civvy B1 or B2 can make and too much of the latter. When you go out into civvy work, after having been in the Military, you realise how much bull**** is involved in everyday life in the Military. Why would you bother?


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    #111
    Fritzbox
    Registered Users Posts: 488 ✭✭Fritzbox


    Stovepipe wrote: »
    Money and bull****. Not enough, compared to what a civvy B1 or B2 can make and too much of the latter. When you go out into civvy work, after having been in the Military, you realise how much bull**** is involved in everyday life in the Military. Why would you bother?

    But why is it such bull**** being a mechanic or a pilot in the IAC , but not so much in most other European countries? Is it the salary?


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    #112
    Stovepipe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    Fritzbox wrote: »
    But why is it such bull**** being a mechanic or a pilot in the IAC , but not so much in most other European countries? Is it the salary?

    The military has a million ways to annoy you. Life is much more flexible as a civvy mech or pilot. You can vote with your feet any time. You can advance your career by work, skill and merit. In the military hierarchy, its dependent on military promotion courses and of course, military office politics. Civvy firms are not immune to the same but you have much more flexibility.


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    #113
    Negative_G
    Registered Users Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    Fritzbox wrote: »
    Why does the Air Corps have such a problem recruiting and retaining staff?

    There is genuinely not enough hours in the day to get into the weeds with this.

    Pay, pensions and conditions is the primary reason, particularly amongst enlisted personnel who makes up almost all personnel involved in maintenance.

    It is not a problem unique to Ireland. Air Forces/Corps all over the world struggle to retain personnel, primarily due to pay.

    The largest, most powerful air force in the world (the USAF) has issues retaining personnel. Same with the UK armed forces.


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    #114
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,596 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Negative_G wrote: »
    There is genuinely not enough hours in the day to get into the weeds with this.

    Pay, pensions and conditions is the primary reason, particularly amongst enlisted personnel who makes up almost all personnel involved in maintenance.

    It is not a problem unique to Ireland. Air Forces/Corps all over the world struggle to retain personnel, primarily due to pay.


    The largest, most powerful air force in the world (the USAF) has issues retaining personnel. Same with the UK armed forces.

    Going on your past posts you seam to be a member of the air corps or very close to it. If there where 3 things that could be done to sort personnel issues what would they be? Or is solely pay and hours worked as mentioned in your last post?


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    #115
    Stovepipe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    my three: aircraft mechs are for servicing, overhauling and maintaining of complex devices called aircraft, in the hangar or on the line;not guard duties, going to the range, going on parades, sent on guards of honour for alleged dignitaries, day labourers, cleaners of rooms and buildings, security at airshows, cleaners of dining room pots and pans, scrubbers of floors, etc,etc and subject to the scrutiny of everyone not concerned with their jobs. They do not need to be constantly checked for the condition of their uniforms. I have one uniform and I never have any problem getting bits of it replaced. In the Military, it was always a problem and going to Stores for replacement was always a teeth-grinding experience........They do not need to be subject to the whims of storemen and clerks,who think that they should not be issued with kit or equipment essential to their job. They should have enough tools to do the job and the Company will move heaven and earth to keep the tools and kit available because aircraft on the ground are expensive beasts. They should get compensated for shifts/unsocial hours/absence from home and family properly. They are highly
    and expensively trained,highly educated skilled people and should not be treated as if they are day labourers standing outside a pub in Kilburn.

    Historical note: the RAF took aircraft techs off guard duties and other non-relevant tasks in 1954,as the loss rate of skilled people was draining the force dry and the exit interviews concluded that constantly being taken off the job for guards and cleaning and polishing and parades was eating away at morale. It annoyed techs no end and drove up the unserviceability rate as aircraft grew more complex and needed greater attention to detail.
    They also do not need 16 week courses in the Glen of Imaal or the Curragh to qualify them for promotion. Quite how learning to fire an anti tank rocket or conduct a platoon in attack is relevant to aircraft maintenance escapes me. The RAF have had technical courses for promotion since the day they were founded.

    This does not mean to say, by a long shot, that airlines and civvy maintenance firms are shining examples of places to work in. A lot of them are awful but none of them would interfere with the working day of aircraft techs the way the military does.


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    #116
    Dohvolle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,283 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Stovepipe wrote: »
    my three: aircraft mechs are for servicing, overhauling and maintaining of complex devices called aircraft, in the hangar or on the line;not guard duties, going to the range, going on parades, sent on guards of honour for alleged dignitaries, day labourers, cleaners of rooms and buildings, security at airshows, cleaners of dining room pots and pans, scrubbers of floors, etc,etc and subject to the scrutiny of everyone not concerned with their jobs. They do not need to be constantly checked for the condition of their uniforms. I have one uniform and I never have any problem getting bits of it replaced. In the Military, it was always a problem and going to Stores for replacement was always a teeth-grinding experience........They do not need to be subject to the whims of storemen and clerks,who think that they should not be issued with kit or equipment essential to their job. They should have enough tools to do the job and the Company will move heaven and earth to keep the tools and kit available because aircraft on the ground are expensive beasts. They should get compensated for shifts/unsocial hours/absence from home and family properly. They are highly
    and expensively trained,highly educated skilled people and should not be treated as if they are day labourers standing outside a pub in Kilburn.

    Historical note: the RAF took aircraft techs off guard duties and other non-relevant tasks in 1954,as the loss rate of skilled people was draining the force dry and the exit interviews concluded that constantly being taken off the job for guards and cleaning and polishing and parades was eating away at morale. It annoyed techs no end and drove up the unserviceability rate as aircraft grew more complex and needed greater attention to detail.
    They also do not need 16 week courses in the Glen of Imaal or the Curragh to qualify them for promotion. Quite how learning to fire an anti tank rocket or conduct a platoon in attack is relevant to aircraft maintenance escapes me. The RAF have had technical courses for promotion since the day they were founded.

    This does not mean to say, by a long shot, that airlines and civvy maintenance firms are shining examples of places to work in. A lot of them are awful but none of them would interfere with the working day of aircraft techs the way the military does.

    There is a lot to be said for moving (or creating) an infantry Bn to Bal and let them deal with security and other regimental duties. A Mate of mine in NS had similar problem. He was a spark. On qualification after 3 years in Naas instead of moving him to an appointment for his trade (as was promised in all the recruitment literature) he was sent to sea as a mech, which didn't earn the same pay as a spark. He was however doing the all duties of a spark. At sea there was him and the PO/EA, who was usually also the Boarding NCO. His weekends ashore usually involved him doing guard duties at the main gate.
    When he was finally appointed to the A/EA appointment, he spent most of his spare time doing "favours" for numerous officers. i.e nixers without pay. Later on he was offered a Potential NCO course which was being held in Ballincollig. (For those not from Cork, Ballincollig may be near a river, but is nowhere near the sea) He declined the opportunity to spend a few months doing drill and tactics that he would never use in the NS. When he went on his ticket, 2 weeks into his new civvy job he got a call from the base telling him he was on a GoH for the president in Dublin the following week. There was silence on the other end when he answered by saying he would have to check with his boss first to see if he was available.
    It took a few minutes to explain to whoever rang that now he was no longer in the Naval service he would not be available for GoH, no matter who it was for.

    I'm told this bull**** has got worse since. Not only are people not doing work appropriate to their own trade, they are also doing work appropriate to those in trades they were never trained to do.
    Can you imagine if you needed electrical work done at home, and the guy sent to fix it normally worked as a tyre fitter?


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    #117
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,596 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Dohvolle wrote: »
    There is a lot to be said for moving (or creating) an infantry Bn to Bal and let them deal with security and other regimental duties. A Mate of mine in NS had similar problem. He was a spark. On qualification after 3 years in Naas instead of moving him to an appointment for his trade (as was promised in all the recruitment literature) he was sent to sea as a mech, which didn't earn the same pay as a spark. He was however doing the all duties of a spark. At sea there was him and the PO/EA, who was usually also the Boarding NCO. His weekends ashore usually involved him doing guard duties at the main gate.
    When he was finally appointed to the A/EA appointment, he spent most of his spare time doing "favours" for numerous officers. i.e nixers without pay. Later on he was offered a Potential NCO course which was being held in Ballincollig. (For those not from Cork, Ballincollig may be near a river, but is nowhere near the sea) He declined the opportunity to spend a few months doing drill and tactics that he would never use in the NS. When he went on his ticket, 2 weeks into his new civvy job he got a call from the base telling him he was on a GoH for the president in Dublin the following week. There was silence on the other end when he answered by saying he would have to check with his boss first to see if he was available.
    It took a few minutes to explain to whoever rang that now he was no longer in the Naval service he would not be available for GoH, no matter who it was for.

    I'm told this bull**** has got worse since. Not only are people not doing work appropriate to their own trade, they are also doing work appropriate to those in trades they were never trained to do.
    Can you imagine if you needed electrical work done at home, and the guy sent to fix it normally worked as a tyre fitter?

    He should have told them no problem see you there!


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    #118
    Stovepipe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    In this day of drone surveillance and first class camera technology, not to mind good fences and other types of barriers,every Mil installation in the country could be guarded by CCTV, remote sensors and the occasional mobile patrol. Every decent airport operates that way. The DF in general could do that quite easily.
    As for the story of that sailor doing mech and elec,well, that's the nature of aircraft engineering and I've no doubt marine engineering is the same. He'd certainly be expected to do both in civvy life. Unless a job requires a very dedicated skill set, any mech or elec should be able to cross-task. As for failing to get his promised appointment, that would need a chat with a senior officer to fix, on the basis that he'd tool up a solicitor if he didn't get what was promised. None of that "if you can't take a joke..." crap. If it's what he was contracted for, the NS haven't a leg to stand on, if he didnt get what was due.


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    #119
    Negative_G
    Registered Users Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Going on your past posts you seam to be a member of the air corps or very close to it. If there where 3 things that could be done to sort personnel issues what would they be? Or is solely pay and hours worked as mentioned in your last post?

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://assets.gov.ie/24192/c276cb4ffe0445a398adac3f2b9826f8.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi09e7hiMnvAhUxtHEKHZK-C8sQFjACegQIBBAC&usg=AOvVaw3y03W4XJGIEFtiTb1RTDVG

    This survey tells you all you need to know.

    Action taken = zero.


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    #120
    Dohvolle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,283 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Stovepipe wrote: »
    In this day of drone surveillance and first class camera technology, not to mind good fences and other types of barriers,every Mil installation in the country could be guarded by CCTV, remote sensors and the occasional mobile patrol. Every decent airport operates that way. The DF in general could do that quite easily.
    As for the story of that sailor doing mech and elec,well, that's the nature of aircraft engineering and I've no doubt marine engineering is the same. He'd certainly be expected to do both in civvy life. Unless a job requires a very dedicated skill set, any mech or elec should be able to cross-task. As for failing to get his promised appointment, that would need a chat with a senior officer to fix, on the basis that he'd tool up a solicitor if he didn't get what was promised. None of that "if you can't take a joke..." crap. If it's what he was contracted for, the NS haven't a leg to stand on, if he didnt get what was due.
    It's not the same. Mech isn't a trade, but it is an appointment. A mech at sea is the below deck version of a seaman a mech is not an artificer. Seamen clean decks up top, mechs clean decks down below. Making a spark a mech was the Navy's way of paying less people the tech pay they were entitled to. He was still doing the sparks job. To put it in Air Corps terms, the guy who drives the minibus isn't expected to fly the casa, but the guy who flies the casa could probably drive a minibus. ( I don't know what skills the ground crew have in the Air Corps, but in civvy street, you don't leave the luggage handlers marshal airliners, though the guy driving the aircraft tug has the skills to assist the luggage handlers).
    He did go down the route open to him, and got appointed, knowing he would face the retribution from on high for the forseeable. He got the last laugh though, upskilled and changed branch. Carried both his new skill and his old trade into civvy st.


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    #121
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,596 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Negative_G wrote: »
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://assets.gov.ie/24192/c276cb4ffe0445a398adac3f2b9826f8.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi09e7hiMnvAhUxtHEKHZK-C8sQFjACegQIBBAC&usg=AOvVaw3y03W4XJGIEFtiTb1RTDVG

    This survey tells you all you need to know.

    Action taken = zero.

    Briefly reading that report the safety issues in Air Corps are worrying. Over all it maybe best to disband the defence forces in its current form and start a fresh as according to that report it is very dysfunctional organisation


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