Going Forward with Covid19

Eugene Donohoe · 18-08-2020 10:51pm #1

I thought it might be useful to have a new thread?

Like everyone else I was disappointed and concerned with the Govt Announcement this evening but not entirely surprised by it. In terms of chess it was obvious the Major would be cancelled this weekend for good reason, which again was disappointing as so many of us were looking forward to playing OTB in the safe environment as in the Irish Chp. A word of thanks to John McMorrow and Dave Grant and all the others who worked so hard to put on tournaments recently. Much appreciated and here's hoping for better days ahead.

sodacat11 · 19-08-2020 9:18am

Years ago when I used to have to work weekends I used organize 8 or 10 player midweek round robins. Perhaps during this Covid crisis we could organize four player double round robins? All we would need are two boards with the dividing screens and somewhere to play.

Pintman Paddy Losty · 19-08-2020 9:19am

Can chess not just be played online?

sodacat11 · 19-08-2020 9:20am

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Can chess not just be played online?

It is nothing like a "real" game and online games aren't rated by the ICU or FIDE.

cdeb · 19-08-2020 9:37am

The unfortunate reality as well is that online chess is more prone to people cheating using computer engines to help them.

Plus part of chess is the social aspect (surprising as it may sound). We've a WhatsApp group for discussing the club's 4NCL Online games. But it doesn't begin to compare to analysing a game over a pint afterwards.

Joedryan · 24-08-2020 8:59am

It seems like chess is in limbo in many countries now, here in Spain the whole summer circuit was abandoned, and the leagues fro last year have not even been finished, plans to do that in November but I wouldnt hold my breath,

It looks like 2021 is where its at, hope to god we can get back to normal then!

sodacat11 · 24-08-2020 9:31am

Joedryan wrote: »

It seems like chess is in limbo in many countries now, here in Spain the whole summer circuit was abandoned, and the leagues fro last year have not even been finished, plans to do that in November but I wouldnt hold my breath,

It looks like 2021 is where its at, hope to god we can get back to normal then!

I am beginning to wonder if we will ever get back to "normal". I was just listening to an item on the radio discussing the effects that Covid is having on the brain and how anyone who contracts it could have long term problems. They are also saying that the virus might stay dormant in the brain or body and emerge again at any time in the future.
On a chess level, how many players will disappear forever because of Covid? Not just people who die or are afraid to play but maybe some will get so used to playing online that they won't want to play in real tournaments.
How many tournaments will never come back? Will the year of missing chess coaching in schools have an effect on kids coming through?
If we do get back to playing tournaments it will be interesting to see if players are more booked up than they were before the lockdown and whether many have changed the openings that they play. Will attendance numbers at tournaments suffer for a while or , like me, will people be champing at the bit to get back? It is a pity that we don't have a crystal ball to see just what things will be like in twelve months time.

sodacat11 · 01-09-2020 8:10am

If a venue like Colaiste Eanna is available on a long term basis would it be possible for the ICU to run some regular events during the Covid crisis? Perhaps a number of small six player round robins for players of similar ratings played over a weekend? If there were six groups of six we would be well within safety limits.

RooksPawn · 01-09-2020 5:05pm

sodacat11 wrote: »

If a venue like Colaiste Eanna is available on a long term basis would it be possible for the ICU to run some regular events during the Covid crisis? Perhaps a number of small six player round robins for players of similar ratings played over a weekend? If there were six groups of six we would be well within safety limits.

Not, under present regulations in a private house, if you are from six different households?

As I understand it, a six=player tournament with two Kanyamaralas, two Melaughs and two Putars or two O'Gormans would be OK. If they played in the home of one of those families then maybe you can have an 8-player tournament:
"Social visits to homes, both indoors and outdoors, should be limited to a maximum of 6 visitors from no more than 3 households."

So far as larger events like the City of Dublin, maybe 50 max including organisers/arbiters might be allowed later if the ICU could make a case to NPHET, but at present it depends on the interpretation of:
"Some cultural venues, like theatres, cinemas and galleries can also have up to 50 people in attendance, but must make sure that physical distance measures are in place."

I don't see how a chess tournament can come within this clause because chess is not recognised as a sport here, so it is the venue performing its main function that matters.
Therefore I think ICU were right to cancel the Major.

MODIFYING what I wrote above, the regulation abouT SOCIAL VISITS implies that you can have six visitors to your house from max 3 other households. But the next clause is perhaps the one that would apply to a chess tournament, certainly in any public venue:
"Other indoor gatherings and events are now limited to 6 people from no more than 3 households."

Maybe things will improve in a week or two - though of course it could get worse.
So it's probably a good idea to start organising those 6-player events, 5 games over a weekend.
But at present you couldn't have more than one going on at the same time at the same venue.

If none of the players are related, you can have four-player all-play-alls. Three games one weekend and reverse colours next weekend.

cdeb · 01-09-2020 5:27pm

RooksPawn wrote: »

Maybe things will improve in a week or two - though of course it could get worse.

The schools going back is the next thing to keep an eye on.

I don't see how there can't be a spike in cases by the end of the month to be honest. Or how general restrictions (as opposed to KE-OY-LS lockdown) could be significantly eased before the schools impact is seen.

sodacat11 · 01-09-2020 5:46pm

I just got this from the HSE website
"Up to 50 people can attend a wedding, including the staff of the venue. Some cultural venues, like theatres, cinemas and galleries can also have up to 50 people in attendance, but must make sure that physical distance measures are in place."

Chess is a cultural event. I think if permission was asked from the local Gardai/ HSE and they were shown the safety measures that were in place for the Irish Championships then they would probably allow a tournament of 30 or so people without any objection.

sodacat11 · 01-09-2020 6:02pm

RooksPawn wrote: »

Not, under present regulations in a private house, if you are from six different households?

So it's probably a good idea to start organising those 6-player events, 5 games over a weekend.
But at present you couldn't have more than one going on at the same time at the same venue.

If none of the players are related, you can have four-player all-play-alls. Three games one weekend and reverse colours next weekend.

What about if the venue was a school and a number of classrooms were used? Could we not have four or six people in each classroom? Technically they would all be taking part in different events and it wouldn't be a mass gathering.

Eugene Donohoe · 02-09-2020 11:46pm

Like everyone else I'm itching to play OTB chess in as safe as circumstances will allow, and especially keen to test my work this year in the lockdown. However I'm inclined to think that OTB chess may be some way off yet. In the meantime I wonder if there is any interest or appetite for a form of online chess such as was organised in the Hibernian League this summer and located on Lichess?

Having played in it I found it quite a good experience and it helped to provide a sense of continuity with chess players here in Ireland. It was certainly well organised.

I know that cheating is an issue but I also hear that Lichess is quite good at picking up cheaters in action and I am wondering would that be enough to put some safeguards in action if say something was organised along similar lines? Would the fear of being exposed in front of the whole Irish Chess community be enough to put anyone who contemplated cheating be enough to prevent it? I can't see the leagues coming back anytime soon. In the meantime it could be good to have some kind of interim alternative to the leagues by perhaps re-jigging the Hibernian League?

cdeb · 03-09-2020 9:34am

There's a fair few teams in the 4NCL online at the moment (Gonzaga, St Benildus, Blanch, Cork and Cavan), so that may take away from the Hibernian League to an extent

There was a fair few complaints about lichess during the first season of the 4NCL, in particular the complete lack of transparency around cheating bans. There is basically no appeals process (it was suggested that a player should be prepared to demonstrate prior knowledge of certain middlegame ideas, either from having played them before or having covered them in prep, but it was also said that lichess wouldn't indicate which games were the ones suspected of cheating because that might hint at their algorithms - so you were now being asked to demonstrate prior knowledge of complex middlegame ideas without being told anything about which middlegame that was) That's an obvious concern - it rather undermines the site even if they're correct. Several teams withdrew from the 4NCL in protest for example (albeit that numbers have grown for the second season)

But there'd be no harm in canvassing interest in a second season of the HOCL - the Leinster Leagues can't resume any time soon unfortunately. One thing I would change from the first season is to try have all divisions on the same day - there were enough teams for 2/3 divisions last time, but by putting them across three different days, the groups ended up being very lopsided.

Eugene Donohoe · 03-09-2020 9:52am

cdeb wrote: »

There's a fair few teams in the 4NCL online at the moment (Gonzaga, St Benildus, Blanch, Cork and Cavan), so that may take away from the Hibernian League to an extent

There was a fair few complaints about lichess during the first season of the 4NCL, in particular the complete lack of transparency around cheating bans. There is basically no appeals process (it was suggested that a player should be prepared to demonstrate prior knowledge of certain middlegame ideas, either from having played them before or having covered them in prep, but it was also said that lichess wouldn't indicate which games were the ones suspected of cheating because that might hint at their algorithms - so you were now being asked to demonstrate prior knowledge of complex middlegame ideas without being told anything about which middlegame that was) That's an obvious concern - it rather undermines the site even if they're correct. Several teams withdrew from the 4NCL in protest for example (albeit that numbers have grown for the second season)

But there'd be no harm in canvassing interest in a second season of the HOCL - the Leinster Leagues can't resume any time soon unfortunately. One thing I would change from the first season is to try have all divisions on the same day - there were enough teams for 2/3 divisions last time, but by putting them across three different days, the groups ended up being very lopsided.

Thanks. Thats interesting. Lets hope that the feedback from players may help refine things at Lichess.

sodacat11 · 03-09-2020 10:00am

Online chess is all very well, as far as it goes, but we need to get back playing over the board chess. The Irish Ch proved that tournaments can be held perfectly safely so we need to demonstrate this to the powers that be so that we can get an exemption from the crowd limits in the same way that theatres and galleries etc have done. The risk of Covid 19 being spread at a tournament like the Irish Ch are negligible so if we go along and show the safety videos and make our case I am quite sure that we could resume proper tournaments with restricted numbers. The chess community are well known to be a studious and peaceful lot who are likely to follow the rules and unlikely to turn a tournament into a rave or an orgy so I am sure that we would get a sympathetic hearing. All we need is for the authorities to turn a blind eye to our activities safe in the knowledge that we would act responsibly. There is nothing to be lost by making a case and asking permission.

Eugene Donohoe · 03-09-2020 10:21am

sodacat11 wrote: »

Online chess is all very well, as far as it goes, but we need to get back playing over the board chess. The Irish Ch proved that tournaments can be held perfectly safely so we need to demonstrate this to the powers that be so that we can get an exemption from the crowd limits in the same way that theatres and galleries etc have done. The risk of Covid 19 being spread at a tournament like the Irish Ch are negligible so if we go along and show the safety videos and make our case I am quite sure that we could resume proper tournaments with restricted numbers. The chess community are well known to be a studious and peaceful lot who are likely to follow the rules and unlikely to turn a tournament into a rave or an orgy so I am sure that we would get a sympathetic hearing. All we need is for the authorities to turn a blind eye to our activities safe in the knowledge that we would act responsibly. There is nothing to be lost by making a case and asking permission.

Thanks and yes I agree with you as far as tournaments are concerned although covid conditions and public health advice have a recent track record of changing and predictability has gone out the window for the moment. Certainly your Colaiste Eanna suggestion is an excellent idea. I was thinking of an alternative interim arrangement as far as the leagues are concerned. Maybe we could try for both?!

RooksPawn · 03-09-2020 11:10am

The Cork Congress is going to be played on Lichess next month but there are almost no entries showing on the ICU website yet. I wonder why not?

As I never played on Lichess, I guess I might sign up and get used to the platform first. Does anyone have tips or advice?

cdeb · 03-09-2020 11:22am

Weekenders typically have slow uptake until the fortnight before anyway. The 4NCL ran a couple of online weekenders and the numbers were relatively small (given England's population) - maybe they're generally not that popular? But fair dues to Cork for giving it a go; hope the numbers do increase.

Lichess is fairly straightforward; no real tips. I find it a little bit ugly and social-media-ey - so you can follow players and you've a profile which says "Solved 2 of 3 puzzles today" and useless stuff like that. The variants (horde, suicide, etc) are a bit silly but harmless. The hourly tournaments are good; smaller ones are good for club events, though the pairing algorithm is weird.

You are creating an online database of your games too. I much prefer gameknot to be honest, though I'm in a minority in that it seems! Gameknot of course doesn't really have the option of blitz or real-time play (it's correspondence only)

RooksPawn · 03-09-2020 10:46pm

How will the pairings for the tournament work if people are registered on Lichess under anonymous nicknames but paying entry fees under their real names? Sorry if it's a stupid question but I'm new to all this online stuff.

Eugene Donohoe · 03-09-2020 10:52pm

RooksPawn wrote: »

How will the pairings for the tournament work if people are registered on Lichess under anonymous nicknames but paying entry fees under their real names? Sorry if it's a stupid question but I'm new to all this online stuff.

Peter Scott worked out a very good system to deal with that and once people got familiar with it, it worked well. Takes a bit of adjustment but no problem. I looked to attach a link fir you but I think he’s moving the chess league domain to a different server so doesn’t appear to be available at the moment. It’s very manageable.

sodacat11 · 04-09-2020 9:12am

I'm getting emails from Czech Tour http://www.czechtour.net/ , it seems that their tournaments are going ahead as normal. I wouldn't be overly keen about getting on a plane at the moment but if this chess starvation goes on much longer I might risk it.

mikhail · 04-09-2020 11:39am

RooksPawn wrote: »

How will the pairings for the tournament work if people are registered on Lichess under anonymous nicknames but paying entry fees under their real names? Sorry if it's a stupid question but I'm new to all this online stuff.

The 4NCL is on lichess at the moment. Players provide a username to the organiser, and this is listed under their name in the pairings.

Going Forward with Covid19

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