Self service tills and job losses

4068ac1elhodqr · 23-05-2019 3:06pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It will definitely cost money. No doubt about that. But people who slip out of employment and rely on social welfare and related social problems that come from poverty and unemployment and criminality are also expensive.

Completely worth investing in.

Agree, but 5/10yr plans along with UBI, 30hr flexi-weeks, free education, training benefits and so on, generally won't win elections (see France).

Indeed it would require massive wealth re-distribution, higher corp taxes, higher VAT, closing of avoidance loopholes, stopping tax havens, restricting inheritance trust funds and so on and on.

El_Duderino 09 · 23-05-2019 3:09pm

Drake Weak Waiter wrote: »

Agree, but 5/10yr plans along with UBI, 30hr flexi-weeks, free education, training benefits and so on, generally won't win elections (see France).

Indeed it would require massive wealth re-distribution, higher corp taxes, higher VAT, closing of avoidance loopholes, stopping tax havens, restricting inheritance trust funds and so on and on.

I wouldn't have a problem with any of the measures in your post but I know it's not fashionable to discuss wealth redistribution.

ToddyDoody · 23-05-2019 3:10pm

Where's the friendliness of them though? Can they not be programmed to say 'have a nice day'?

Feisar · 23-05-2019 3:11pm

We always seem to think it's jobs on the lower end of the spectrum that are at risk. I work in construction. I'd say a structural engineer is facing as much or possibly more risk of being replaced as a laborer.

El_Duderino 09 · 23-05-2019 3:17pm

Feisar wrote: »

We always seem to think it's jobs on the lower end of the spectrum that are at risk. I work in construction. I'd say a structural engineer is facing as much or possibly more risk of being replaced as a laborer.

I work with accountant auditors and they're going to be under severe pressure in the near future too. Lots of jobs are going to go automated. There will still need to be some to make judgements but lots more work will get done with fewer people employed.

The same principle applies to highly skilled people. They will need help to reskill too.

PandaPoo · 23-05-2019 3:22pm

grahambo wrote: »

Final thought.
Working on a Till for your career.... Really?
I know people that have done it, I've no idea how.
It's such a low paid job, with zero benefits.

I work in Tesco, my husband is the big earner in our house and I don't need to work but do it because I really enjoy it and like to make my own money. The people I work with that are there years are making a lot more than you would think, I know I was shocked when I was told. The benefits are ok, retirement savings plans, big discounts on gym memberships etc.

Jurgen Klopp · 23-05-2019 3:23pm

My favourite thing in regards to current automation talk is all this talk of only people working at tils, taxi drivers and other low skill jobs need worry and upskill

The funny part is automation will remove plenty of jobs from all levels, whether it's accountants, IT Professionals, etc

Are you a software developer or coder? Well looky here a new user friendly program that lets 10 coders do what it took 50 to do 5 years back

An accountant? Well we've a new piece of software that lets 1 account easily do what it took 3 to do last year

In fact there's plenty with masters and PHDs who could be applying for those "minimum wage jobs" along with some poor till worker that was let go

FTA69 · 23-05-2019 3:24pm

You're all mad if you think the only jobs that will be lost to automation will be low-skill, repetitive ones. Things like law, accountancy and financial trading as well as things like software development are all at massive risk as well. Automation is something that will affect all levels of the economy with the possible exception of education and care as someone has mentioned already.

We are looking at the mass replacement of well-payed, skilled jobs and the spread of low-paid precarious work that will leave people in the sh*t. There's a reason things like universal basic income and whatnot has become a big talking point. The way I see it, we'll all end up on some crap dole-type system and see the hypercommercialisation of everyday stuff; we can already see that now with paying people to paint nails and walk dogs etc.

Automation could have huge benefits for the majority, but it should come with wages staying the same and a decrease in the working week - not tossing people on the scrapheap while profits accumulate for the very few at the top.

road_high · 23-05-2019 3:24pm

One thing I can never figure it in various shops- you have a massive queue of people there wanting to spend their money but at the same time there are often lots of staff milling around not looking very busy, stacking shelves or what not. The no 1 priority should be to sell to and serve the customers. Super valu are brutal for this

MrMusician18 · 23-05-2019 3:25pm

my3cents wrote: »

I wonder how good are these Self Service Tills are at catching shop lifters. The ones that don't pay for anything.

A reduction in staff looks like an invitation to shop lift?

The shops obviously know about this. A bank of ten self service tills probably replaces about 5-6 members of staff. When you total the cost of a minimum wage employees, it comes to about €15/hr, so you'd have to be seeing stock loss through the tills of €75/hr, which is a lot of groceries.

By securing small, high value items, like batteries and razors, stock loss, or shrinkage as it's known in the trade, can be controlled to a level that it makes more profitable to have self service tills rather than staff

4068ac1elhodqr · 23-05-2019 3:52pm

Jurgen Klopp wrote: »

The funny part is automation will remove plenty of jobs from all levels, whether it's accountants, IT Professionals, etc

Yes and no, Accountants are highly skilled, but at the same time are at high risk (unlike some other professionals), simply because the abacus pusher's role revolves around 'logical linear processes' such as measurement, logging and compiling fiscal reports, with no room for error.

There is little room for human creativity, personality or innovation in bookeeping (unless they specalise in evasive systems), hence they are high on the list (whilst also currently well paid and highly trained).

LirW · 23-05-2019 3:58pm

FTA69 wrote: »

We are looking at the mass replacement of well-payed, skilled jobs and the spread of low-paid precarious work that will leave people in the sh*t. There's a reason things like universal basic income and whatnot has become a big talking point. The way I see it, we'll all end up on some crap dole-type system and see the hypercommercialisation of everyday stuff; we can already see that now with paying people to paint nails and walk dogs etc.

I'm wondering what we should tell our children now on what to focus, especially the generation that's due to leave school in the next decade. There are so many fields that aren't safe from automation, from low skilled to highly qualified. I know it's a big deal now to send kids off to do business, law and finance but is this really the way to go when there are so many jobs about to be replaced by AI?

I honestly think nobody really knows yet how this is going to turn out. But it's going to get very interesting when professionals that got knee deep into debt in the last few years will lose their jobs and struggle to find new employment since chances are there'll be a huge wave of redundancies and many people will be in the same boat.

selwyn froggitt · 23-05-2019 5:07pm

I much prefer the self service checkouts and tills now..............I really hate the judgmental glare of your average checkout operator. Just last week, I got a filthy look.I was only buying a litre of vodka, a roll of duct tape, some cable ties, refuse sacks and a carving knife

Ubbquittious · 23-05-2019 5:24pm

Normal checkouts were a great way to meet girls with the prospect of putting an unexpected item in their bagging area at some point down the line. I suppose that avenue will be gone with the bows and arrows as well soon. Instead people on both sides of the fence will instead be sitting in a corner of their room depressed on their phones complaining about incels and me toos on social media

The Rape of Lucretia · 23-05-2019 6:09pm

They will have to make a self service till that works with some reliability first.
By God, but they are appalling. Has any technology ever been rolled out that is so faulty and unfit for purpose (well, yes, automated passport gates of course. But most of is dont have a need to even try those too often)?
They just aren't worth the effort at the moment. Maybe chance one if you only have 2 or 3 items. Getting stuck one or more times if you have more than that is pretty much guaranteed. Sure, someone will come and scan a card to resolve the bug. When they are finished dealing with a bug on someone elses machine.

While they can be suffered, they have to be the worst performing machine/technology out there today.

"Take the last item out of the bagging area" ? Why ? I scanned it and bagged it.

"Unexpected item in the bagging area" ? Why is it unexpected? I just scanned it. And of course I am going to bag it.

"Unfamiliar item in the bagging area" ? I'm buying it in your shop, you should be familiar with it.

Dont have the right picture for the bread or pastry? Your problem for being a crap machine - I'm just pressing small breadroll now anyway and you wont know the difference - serves you right for being so crap.

"Assistance needed". Well, no, I dont want assistance actually - its you, you damn machine, that need the assistance. You arent fit to do your job.

Give me a check out guy/gal any day.

SEPT 23 1989 · 23-05-2019 6:14pm

Bit off topic but I was listening to a radio discussion a while back and some guy reckoned that human carers to the very wealthy elderly will be making serious money in the future

Robots will be for the poor

Edgware · 23-05-2019 6:18pm

selwyn froggitt wrote: »

I much prefer the self service checkouts and tills now..............I really hate the judgmental glare of your average checkout operator. Just last week, I got a filthy look.I was only buying a litre of vodka, a roll of duct tape, some cable ties, refuse sacks and a carving knife

Larry, I agree with you. Those women can be very condescending. Regards Graham

RobbingBandit · 23-05-2019 6:20pm

It's fun to obey the machine

Capt'n Midnight · 23-05-2019 8:16pm

degsie wrote: »

Look at how many farriers lost their jobs when the motor car came along

And all those labourers that lost their jobs when horses were domesticated

Del.Monte · 23-05-2019 9:07pm

kneemos wrote: »

Plenty of alternative work available at the moment.

I thought you lived in Co.Wexford - where are all of these jobs of which you speak? Enniscorthy Urban district with an unemployment rate of circa 30%.

Strumms · 23-05-2019 9:11pm

There will be jobs created in manufacturing these self service tills, servicing them, sales etc.... so ultimately it isn’t necessarily a bad thing, possibly increased efficiency for the shopper with less Qing... so all round positive.

4068ac1elhodqr · 23-05-2019 9:49pm

Strumms wrote: »

There will be jobs created in manufacturing* these self service tills, servicing them, sales etc.... so ultimately it isn’t necessarily a bad thing, possibly increased efficiency for the shopper with less Qing... so all round positive.

(*in China). Process efficency is indeed one of the main benefits of automation (phoning up a dozen car insurance brokers for quotes used to be a pain).

Facial recognition will be the next innovation after self-service tills, and if your face is not down, you ain't getting in.

Will only need to a quick wink on the way out, not bother with any machines or staff for transaction fulfilment.

riclad · 23-05-2019 10:46pm

The tesco i go to has 10 self service units ,theres always 2 people there ,to say next, or reset the tills, when they freeze up.
I don,t think there would be room for another 8 cash registers if the tills were gone.
We have almost full employment , so the retail workers let go will find another job.
IF you want to worry about automation ,
wait til self driving cars, trucks come into service.
About 1 million people in the usa work in the trucking ,van delivery industry .
The self service tills are faster , than waiting in a queue while someone
pays for 7 euros shopping with a credit card .

Stephen15 · 23-05-2019 11:08pm

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Stores perform "random" checks on the receipts versus grocery bag contents.
Although depending on how dodgy you look/dress, the randomness of the checking may be skewed against you.
Whether or not an item found in your bag but not scanned through could be considered shoplifting or not, who knows.

But if you've put a barcode of a bottle of water over the barcode of a bottle of whiskey I imagine you could fool the system, but not a cashier.

Amazon are trying out stores with no cashiers or checkouts at all.
They track what you pick up.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/2/18122772/amazon-testing-larger-cashier-less-stores-report

That would surely increase the potential of defamation cases against supermarkets given our compo culture and given that shops cannot acuse someone of shoplifting unless they have actually left the premises.

Stephen15 · 23-05-2019 11:14pm

selwyn froggitt wrote: »

I much prefer the self service checkouts and tills now..............I really hate the judgmental glare of your average checkout operator. Just last week, I got a filthy look.I was only buying a litre of vodka, a roll of duct tape, some cable ties, refuse sacks and a carving knife

Even though that shopping basket would require staff approval

sligojoek · 23-05-2019 11:59pm

There's a SV near me that got them in last year. They're the best thing since sliced bread. I can grab a few bits and pieces on the way home , scan them, tap card and out the door without having to talk sh1t to anyone stuck in a queue waiting for some auld one to check 5 lotto tickets , each one 12 inches long.

On the Job losses front. From what I can see all the full time staff are still there. Whether there's there's less of a turnover on part time staff I don't know.

My daughter spent a few months supervising them so they kept her in a job for a while. She found it very stressful at times. "Explaining simple things to simple people".

Staff are encouraged to send people to the self service. One morning I went to the unattended main till with a carton of milk. A staff member motioned me to go self service. I said I wanted cashback. She said to go to the ATM in the corner. I said I wanted a tenner and the ATM didn't do them. She sighed, hunched her shoulders and came to serve me.

YFlyer · 24-05-2019 12:07am

MrMusician18 wrote: »

The shops obviously know about this. A bank of ten self service tills probably replaces about 5-6 members of staff. When you total the cost of a minimum wage employees, it comes to about €15/hr, so you'd have to be seeing stock loss through the tills of €75/hr, which is a lot of groceries.

By securing small, high value items, like batteries and razors, stock loss, or shrinkage as it's known in the trade, can be controlled to a level that it makes more profitable to have self service tills rather than staff

I seen one of the scubs getting cans of lager at the till in Tesco, Limerick City. He put the food on the conveyor belt and left the cans on the floor next to him. Paid for the food and put them into the bag of cans and walked out.

Stephen15 · 24-05-2019 12:10am

I have to say I'm very surprised that Lidl or Aldi have yet to introduce them considering they both look to minimise staff as much as possible by keeping one or two checkouts open at a time and having few floor staff stacking shelves using mostly pallets or goods already in boxes to minimise labour involved in packing shelves.

Also Lidl and Aldi would be ideal for them as most people going there are only buy less than 20 items and don't buy a full trolley full of goods there either. I would find them very handy in Lidl or Aldi as the queues for the one checkout open can be very and off putting if your only buying one or two things.

sligojoek · 24-05-2019 12:25am

degsie wrote: »

Look at how many farriers lost their jobs when the motor car came along

A mate of mine is a farrier who trained in Tipperary and Newmarket. He's making a fortune in Germany. On Sundays alone he's getting around 300 quid plus expenses and grub for standing around for a few hours doing nothing at gymkanas and suchlike. Once every 2 or 3 months he might get called upon to sort out a shoe on a horse. .

24-05-2019 12:34am

sligojoek wrote: »

A mate of mine is a farrier who trained in Tipperary and Newmarket. He's making a fortune in Germany. On Sundays alone he's getting around 300 quid plus expenses and grub for standing around for a few hours doing nothing at gymkanas and suchlike. Once every 2 or 3 months he might get called upon to sort out a shoe on a horse. .

I suspect farriers have always had a decent income on a purchasing-power (PPP) basis: a bad farrier can almost literally destroy an animal.

Farriery is one of the few industries which I am pretty confident will be unchanged in my lifetime. Horse people are (sometimes correctly, sometimes stupidly) conservatives. The human variety of equine vets, dentists, grooms and (of course, thankfully) jockeys, will outlive us all

StupidLikeAFox · 24-05-2019 12:35am

Stephen15 wrote: »

I have to say I'm very surprised that Lidl or Aldi have yet to introduce them considering they both look to minimise staff as much as possible by keeping one or two checkouts open at a time and having few floor staff stacking shelves using mostly pallets or goods already in boxes to minimise labour involved in packing shelves.

Also Lidl and Aldi would be ideal for them as most people going there are only buy less than 20 items and don't buy a full trolley full of goods there either. I would find them very handy in Lidl or Aldi as the queues for the one checkout open can be very and off putting if your only buying one or two things.

They trialled them in my local Lidl recently and then got rid of them. I don't think the machines got the process of weighing fruit and veg right and things like pre packaged meat had variable weights etc so you would invariably need assistance on a regular basis. Also assistance was needed when buying alcohol. This meant a build up of customers waiting for a member of staff to call over but they are flat out all the time. To sort that out they would have to take on another member of staff to float around and keep an eye on them, but thats a luxury the german stores aren't really in to.

n!ghtmancometh · 24-05-2019 12:47am

Stephen15 wrote: »

I have to say I'm very surprised that Lidl or Aldi have yet to introduce them considering they both look to minimise staff as much as possible by keeping one or two checkouts open at a time and having few floor staff stacking shelves using mostly pallets or goods already in boxes to minimise labour involved in packing shelves.

Also Lidl and Aldi would be ideal for them as most people going there are only buy less than 20 items and don't buy a full trolley full of goods there either. I would find them very handy in Lidl or Aldi as the queues for the one checkout open can be very and off putting if your only buying one or two things.

Lidl on Moore Street have had about 30 self service checkouts for the last year or two, they work very well. They have a few checkouts still too, as well as an express check out.

Most people I see in my local Aldi/Lidl are doing full shops. would be the people using baskets buying small amounts being the rarity.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 24-05-2019 12:49am

Wichita Lineman wrote: »

I seriously doubt that any of the laid off workers are now in any of those jobs you mention.

I’ve been a till girl. It wasn’t the only goal I had for my life, you know. But I did notice that many customers seemed to assume that I was thick-as-mince. Which was nice.

El_Duderino 09 · 24-05-2019 8:29am

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

They will have to make a self service till that works with some reliability first.
By God, but they are appalling. Has any technology ever been rolled out that is so faulty and unfit for purpose (well, yes, automated passport gates of course. But most of is dont have a need to even try those too often)?
They just aren't worth the effort at the moment. Maybe chance one if you only have 2 or 3 items. Getting stuck one or more times if you have more than that is pretty much guaranteed. Sure, someone will come and scan a card to resolve the bug. When they are finished dealing with a bug on someone elses machine...

Give me a check out guy/gal any day.

I can't help thinking you're having more trouble with the machines than I am. Haven't you been able to learn to use them?

Apart from anything else, the machines are supposed to be lore convenient... For the shop owner, not for the shopper.

The best trick of self service check outs is selling them as convenient for the shopper. How is doing the work yourself more convenient? They are often quicker though as big shops have lots of self service check outs and fewer manned ones.

But they're not half as difficult to get your head around as the post above suggests.

CucaFace · 24-05-2019 8:40am

jester77 wrote: »

On the other side, lots of jobs created designing the system, writing the software, developing the hardware, installing it, maintaining it and running it.

For every job created to design the system, have no doubt 100 jobs will be lost. Businesses aren't creating these new systems to swap out a low paid job for a higher paid member of staff. This is being done to save money and increase profits.

This is the future however, and it will be the lower classes/lower educated who will lose out and the world will have a much bigger problem with inequality then it already has.

Technology will push the monetary system to its extreme and perhaps to its end.

inforfun · 24-05-2019 9:50am

I was over in Scotland and at a newly built Lidl they had the self check outs as well.
A few months later i was there again and the self check outs were gone.

Now at lidl you dont have jobs just checking out, you are restocking as well when the need is there so it was probably never meant to get rid of people.

Which means, i guess, that being robbed via the self check out wasnt worth the trouble for Lidl

my3cents · 24-05-2019 9:58am

inforfun wrote: »

I was over in Scotland and at a newly built Lidl they had the self check outs as well.
A few months later i was there again and the self check outs were gone.

Now at lidl you dont have jobs just checking out, you are restocking as well when the need is there so it was probably never meant to get rid of people.

Which means, i guess, that being robbed via the self check out wasnt worth the trouble for Lidl

Down in Cornwall one Lidl store I use when in the UK has had 8 self service tills for the last couple of years. Very busy store though that would have 3 or more tills running most of the time and most of the self service tills in use.

I can see that in that case it would improve the flow of customers through a limited checkout area.

24-05-2019 12:19pm

People seem to think that this is only impacting a few tills in supermarkets but its much more than that.

Ever call a customer service / sales phone line? Chances are, a pre recorded voice system will encourage you to do everything online and you will be a few minutes going through options before you'd get a chance to speak to somebody.
And most people will do things online.

I work as a line manager in a call centre, there is all kinds of automation coming in. We have a mailbox that is completely automated to log all emails into a ticket that goes straight to an off shore team. Thats just one example. Those emails would have previously been logged by people.

Its all aimed at cost saving. Of course there is going to be a big impact in the future.
We're only starting to really tip on the surface now.

gwalk · 24-05-2019 12:31pm

ToddyDoody wrote: »

Where's the friendliness of them though? Can they not be programmed to say 'have a nice day'?

the ones in deals that were programmed to be Elvis were bad enough

ohnonotgmail · 24-05-2019 12:32pm

gwalk wrote: »

the ones in deals that were programmed to be Elvis were bad enough

the seasonal variations they add are really annoying.

my3cents · 24-05-2019 12:48pm

gwalk wrote: »

the ones in deals that were programmed to be Elvis were bad enough

Of all the self service tills the Deals ones (and poundland in the UK) have to be the worst with any excuse for changing the voice and giving you "seasonal" greetings.

Really bugs me is that I can actually have paid and the receipt is coming out of the machine and still get asked as I'm walking away "how would you like to pay cash or card":rolleyes:

Self service tills and job losses

Comments