Work asking about side projects

TippCashel · 15-01-2021 8:01pm #1

Hi all

Just wondering - I'm working from home at the moment and got a call from a colleague today (I think is a good work friend but I haven't spoken to them much over the last 10 months due to WFH) asking me about something he sees me tweeting about a lot which is a Start-Up Business (no income yet) in a very similar field but not remotely near the scale of the company we work with.

He asked a few questions that I was wary to answer because I was certain it would be fed back to the person over our office location but I made sure to emphasise I haven't made any money from it and I'm just helping out with spare time etc. It definitely hasn't impacted my normal work as I'm doing quite well in my normal role.

Sure enough I had a missed call this eve on my personal phone from someone high up in the company (who I'd know well) asking me to call them back when I get a chance.

Little hesitant to go on a call and say something I might regret/say something wrong/say something to get me impeded.

I might be a little light on info there, but any ideas how I should approach the next step? Just to emphasise again - It isn't something I'm making money from etc and the company itself isn't making any revenue.

Thing I will note from my contract:

Termination without notice:

gross misconduct, gross default or wilful neglect in the discharge of your duties under this contract or in connection with or affecting the business of the Company or an associated Company

I will say I don't see anywhere which mentions helping out elsewhere in particular with what would be a 'tiny' company

Thank you

Mrs OBumble · 16-01-2021 2:14am

Could this tiny company cause your company to lose some business?

TBH, I would not go near my company's main line of business in any side-project.

Lenar3556 · 16-01-2021 2:59am

The full facts would need to be known, and the nature of the type of business you are in may be relevant in terms of what are accepted customs and practices.

But if what you are doing tends to compete in any way with the business of your employer, you are likely on shaky ground. It is an implied term of every contract of employment that an employee owes a duty of loyalty to their employer - usually engaging in a competing interest, however small at present would be at odds with this.

I would suggest taking immediate advice from a solicitor, HR consultant or union if you are a member of one, to inform your next steps.

PommieBast · 16-01-2021 3:00am

TippCashel wrote: »

Just wondering - I'm working from home at the moment and got a call from a colleague today (I think is a good work friend but I haven't spoken to them much over the last 10 months due to WFH) asking me about something he sees me tweeting about a lot which is a Start-Up Business (no income yet) in a very similar field but not remotely near the scale of the company we work with.

To me it sounds like you are sailing very close to the territory of Conflict of Interest, so you need to ask yourself this question: Would this startup be in competition with your company? If the answer is yes this may well fall under "affecting the business" and you being asked to either discontinue involvement or resign. If 'no' make sure you have a good explaination of why there is no conflict (e.g different market/items).

Something you also need to be careful of is misuse of company resources, as typically this includes using company time and/or computers for non-company business, and aside from an allowance for some personal stuff is something companies come down very hard on. However a few tweets sent within company hours in itself should not be grounds for anything worse than an informal warning, but it may well invite questions trying to ascertain whether your level of involvement is plausably spare-time only.

beauf · 16-01-2021 3:22am

TippCashel wrote: »

... me tweeting about a lot which is a Start-Up Business.... in a very similar field .......

I can't believe you did this.

punisher5112 · 16-01-2021 3:26am

Cut out social media.

Contact the person back but don't answer any personal questions, if you are setting up and is basically the same thing then they may well be worrying you will rob clients.

Be very careful what you do and say from this period onwards.

No comment is basically the best advice a solicitor will ever give you.

Lenar3556 · 16-01-2021 3:38am

punisher5112 wrote: »

Cut out social media.

Contact the person back but don't answer any personal questions, if you are setting up and is basically the same thing then they may well be worrying you will rob clients.

Be very careful what you do and say from this period onwards.

No comment is basically the best advice a solicitor will ever give you.

No comment isn’t going to resolve this - in the first instance he needs independent assistance in appraising how inappropriate or incompatible the moonlighting is with the day job. Then plan on how to approach what is potentially a delicate issue with his employer.

punisher5112 · 16-01-2021 3:39am

Lenar3556 wrote: »

No comment isn’t going to resolve this - in the first instance he needs independent assistance in appraising how inappropriate or incompatible the moonlighting is with the day job. Then plan on how to approach what is potentially a delicate issue with his employer.

Well it won't help his cause if he blabs about it.

TippCashel · 16-01-2021 9:33am

Thanks all for the replies

- Would the start-up be a threat to the company’s income/business?

No (I don’t believe so). And by the time I’m finished helping out the answer would still be no there.

In very simple hypothetical terms - It’s akin to working for a Sports Data company (who don’t do GAA and don’t intend on doing it) but helping out a small GAA Data company (who don’t have any revenue etc)

Even if there was clients, they can’t be robbed because there’s no conflicting/rival data etc

tomwaits48 · 16-01-2021 9:40am

I’m aware of similar situation; the employee was reminded of her non compete/related activity contractual obligations, having seemingly set up an “unrelated” consulting business. Some tweets were deleted.

Soon enough, they started up again, and she was swiftly sidelined off any sensitive project and has now left of her own accord.

If management think your doing something wrong, even a tad, you’d need to be pretty strong in refuting any claims, if you want a long term career in the company.

Good luck.

TippCashel · 16-01-2021 9:47am

tomwaits48 wrote: »

I’m aware of similar situation; the employee was reminded of her non compete/related activity contractual obligations, having seemingly set up an “unrelated” consulting business. Some tweets were deleted.

Soon enough, they started up again, and she was swiftly sidelined off any sensitive project and has now left of her own accord.

If management think your doing something wrong, even a tad, you’d need to be pretty strong in refuting any claims, if you want a long term career in the company.

Good luck.

Thank you

That makes sense - With Tweets etc in my eyes it was completely harmless. It wasn’t a case of ‘this is the company that everyone needs to use’. It was more a case of ‘there’s some pretty cool data here’ and all that kinda stuff. - Very, very harmless stuff (in my eyes)

The main reason for the thread was kinda for what you said there in the end - if management think I’m doing something wrong, I need to refute claims strongly. - I wasn’t sure about how to go about my wording was what I was worried about really.

duffman13 · 16-01-2021 9:54am

tomwaits48 wrote: »

I’m aware of similar situation; the employee was reminded of her non compete/related activity contractual obligations, having seemingly set up an “unrelated” consulting business. Some tweets were deleted.

Soon enough, they started up again, and she was swiftly sidelined off any sensitive project and has now left of her own accord.

If management think your doing something wrong, even a tad, you’d need to be pretty strong in refuting any claims, if you want a long term career in the company.

Good luck.

I'd echo what Tom said here.

I've had to have a conversation with an employee in the past who also maintained there was no conflict of interest in what they were doing. There very much was, and even though the person in question was doing pretty much free, a small changed to what the other organisation was doing would have made them a direct albeit small competitor.

Id walk away from the side project and remove and relevant social media posts. At the very least remove the social media posts and say you've moved away from the other crowd

TippCashel · 16-01-2021 10:04am

Interesting - Thank you

Makes sense I suppose; disassociating myself from them online (not promoting/showing they have a presence) kinda removes me from it in that sense.

CelticRambler · 16-01-2021 10:42am

TippCashel wrote: »

In very simple hypothetical terms - It’s akin to working for a Sports Data company (who don’t do GAA and don’t intend on doing it) but helping out a small GAA Data company (who don’t have any revenue etc)

Even if there was clients, they can’t be robbed because there’s no conflicting/rival data etc

Unless you're at the company's top table, you're not really in a position to know what they may or may not intend to do. However unlikely it might seem to you, they could be interviewing someone right now to see how they can expand their model, and in your analogy, that could conceivably be a former GAA all-star who's spotted the very same gap in the market that your small company colleagues are fillng.

The fact that they're not making any money from the niche right now doesn't mean that there isn't money to be made from it by a bigger, more commercially motivated company. Furthermore, your employers could argue that you are providing a consultancy service to the smaller venture on the back of the training and industry access that they have provided to you. That's where your potential conflict of interest comes in. It doesn't matter what is, it's what might be that counts.

Shelflife · 16-01-2021 10:47am

There is also the fact that while you may not be making any money on this sideline the company may suspect that you are working on it during "their" time and that they are paying for it.

3DataModem · 16-01-2021 11:02am

TippCashel wrote: »

In very simple hypothetical terms - It’s akin to working for a Sports Data company (who don’t do GAA and don’t intend on doing it) but helping out a small GAA Data company (who don’t have any revenue etc)

The example you give would be very problematic. Even if there is no *lost business* you have expertise, contacts, and inside information that might benefit the startup. Even the fact "they are not doing GAA and don't intend to" is inside info that may be - and seems to be - useful to the startup. Also, they will share customers, and suppliers, and probably technology.

I strongly suggest you consider making a conflict of interest declaration to your employer. They may have no problem with it.

I've made 3 of these declarations in the past.
- Once I was a 'silent' director of a small consulting company who was working with a bank (and I worked in insurance) so I made a declaration. There was literally no chance of conflict, but I made the declaration just to be safe.
- Another time I proposed hiring a former colleague / friend to do some content work. I declared the friendship, and asked another senior person to negotiate the rates. Again, just for the optics.
- More recently a podcaster who talks about my employer specifically in their podcast reached out about producing a book I'd written. Nothing to do with my job etc, but again a conflict of interest declaration should be made.

It's not just the reality, but the perception that's important. Get in front of it.

tomwaits48 · 16-01-2021 11:04am

3DataModem wrote: »

The example you give would be very problematic. Even if there is no *lost business* you have expertise, contacts, and inside information that might benefit the startup. Even the fact "they are not doing GAA and don't intend to" is inside info that may be - and seems to be - useful to the startup. Also, they will share customers, and suppliers, and probably technology.

I strongly suggest you consider making a conflict of interest declaration to your employer. They may have no problem with it.

I've made 3 of these declarations in the past.
- Once I was a 'silent' director of a small consulting company who was working with a bank (and I worked in insurance) so I made a declaration. There was literally no chance of conflict, but I made the declaration just to be safe.
- Another time I proposed hiring a former colleague / friend to do some content work. I declared the friendship, and asked another senior person to negotiate the rates. Again, just for the optics.
- More recently a podcaster who talks about my employer specifically in their podcast reached out about producing a book I'd written. Nothing to do with my job etc, but again a conflict of interest declaration should be made.

It's not just the reality, but the perception that's important. Get in front of it.

OP- You’d pay good money for that quality of advice; heed it!

16-01-2021 11:11am

Some very good answers here. Nothing much to add.

If any of the tweets were done during WFH hours you'll be in trouble. Confidence in you will be shot. It's damaged for sure as of now. Whether you can fix that is your next goal.

TheBoyConor · 16-01-2021 11:21am

I'd say if they give you any grief just give them your notice. Let them beast the cost of finding and training someone new.

TippCashel · 16-01-2021 11:22am

This is all very helpful - thank you

In regards to in-work hours. Nothing was done on normal work time and I’ll make sure to emphasise that too with how strong my work normal work has been and the quality of it etc.

The advice has been very helpful.

Declaration of conflict of interest seems like a good play.

Del2005 · 16-01-2021 11:30am

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I'd say if they give you any grief just give them your notice. Let them beast the cost of finding and training someone new.

Burning your bridges for a non paying job isn't a good idea.

iwillhtfu · 16-01-2021 11:45am

So far nothing has been directly mentioned to you other than a few questions from a colleague so you're working from assumptions. This senior person that called you could be asking about something entirely different and if it was something serious I assume he wouldn't be making a call to your personal phone and would've called you into the office. All correspondence with regard to disciplinary matters is usually done through email or in person particularly in a large company.

Based on your OP I'd agree with others in that you're sailing very close to the wind and that you think you may have stepped over the line, otherwise why the post?

No point sticking your head in the sand and no doubt someone will be along to tell you to delete your twitter but rest assured if this is a disciplinary matter they will already have screen shot everything they're concerned about. They would also have restricted your access to certain files etc.

The area you're moonlighting in may not be of interest to your employer now but could possibly be a tangent they take later on and as mentioned working on it on company time.

Call the man and you'll have all of your answers, could be a case of marking your card.

not yet · 16-01-2021 11:51am

If you have used any of your companies software, hardware, or tools of any kind during this project you are crossing the line.

TippCashel · 16-01-2021 11:56am

not yet wrote: »

If you have used any of your companies software, hardware, or tools of any kind during this project you are crossing the line.

Don't believe I have used anything.

Just to the person above with the question on starting the thread. Started it because I was asked by a person at work about it.

Wouldn't have started it otherwise

Thanks again for all of the advice

Thread can be closed!

Appreciated

AndrewJRenko · 16-01-2021 11:59am

Many employers will require you to declare any side work to ensure that there is no conflict of interest and to ensure that you're not breaching Working Time regulations by spending too much time at work and not getting proper breaks and holidays.

TheBoyConor · 16-01-2021 1:31pm

And this colleague and so called "friend" that ratted you out to the senior guy..... I'd be having a word with him over ratting you out too . That was a dick move of the worst type

TippCashel · 16-01-2021 1:45pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

And this colleague and so called "friend" that ratted you out to the senior guy..... I'd be having a word with him over ratting you out too . That was a dick move of the worst type

I know - It feels like pure and utter Corporate arse-kissing 'oh LOOK LOOK LOOK!'

However, if I'm barking up the wrong tree it might do me well anyway to nip it in the bud now before it escalates.

But yes it did upset me that somebody I know well and likely get on with well did bring it up.

If the day comes that I do ever leave I'll just ask him what happened there.

16-01-2021 1:49pm

TippCashel wrote: »

I know - It feels like pure and utter Corporate arse-kissing 'oh LOOK LOOK LOOK!'

However, if I'm barking up the wrong tree it might do me well anyway to nip it in the bud now before it escalates.

But yes it did upset me that somebody I know well and likely get on with well did bring it up.

If the day comes that I do ever leave I'll just ask him what happened there.

Why do you think it was your friend that brought it up. Could have been plenty others including the senior manager directly.

Sonic the Shaghog · 16-01-2021 1:50pm

It could also be the case that this colleague felt you might have left them or coworkers carrying the load on a project while you concentrated on the side gig given what the OPs been saying it's not exactly as clear cut as the colleague is a rat tbh

TippCashel · 16-01-2021 2:03pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Why do you think it was your friend that brought it up. Could have been plenty others including the senior manager directly.

Could've been - But my initial assumption would be Senior Management don't go out of their way to check my Twitter etc unless they do random spot checks

Sonic the Shaghog wrote: »

It could also be the case that this colleague felt you might have left them or coworkers carrying the load on a project while you concentrated on the side gig given what the OPs been saying it's not exactly as clear cut as the colleague is a rat tbh

Wouldn't be the case - I'm a team by myself (working from home). Any colleagues on my team are based elsewhere worldwide and I'd likely be considered the strongest on the team.

Didn't say someone was a rat but it's obviously something that would come into your head if you were in this situation I'm sure

16-01-2021 2:14pm

TippCashel wrote: »

Could've been - But my initial assumption would be Senior Management don't go out of their way to check my Twitter etc unless they do random spot checks

Depends on how widespread your twitter is. If there's anyone else work related connected to you or your project then accusing your friend is premature.

beauf · 16-01-2021 2:21pm

Might be someone sees it as a business opportunity within the current company. Maybe they want to discuss some ideas.

Though even where its a completely different business area companies can be funny about it, due to the person being distracted.

hobochris · 16-01-2021 3:34pm

As well as the competition aspect, I would read the wording of the Interlectual property clauses very carefully, depedng on how it is worded the company could own any work you have done on this project.
Some just stipulate the company owns anything on company time and/or using company resources whie others may stipulate works, discoveries and inventions while employed are the companies.. always check the IP terms before signing a new contract.

Also size of work or ammount charged has no factor, if it is something someone otherwise could have potentially engaged the company to purchase goods or services for, it could be deemed direct competition.

TippCashel · 16-01-2021 5:00pm

Thank you all for the great help

If the thread could be closed that would be perfect!

CelticRambler · 16-01-2021 5:03pm

Are you not going to tell us what happens? :pac:

TippCashel · 16-01-2021 5:41pm

CelticRambler wrote: »

Are you not going to tell us what happens? :pac:

Not sure what's so funny or why you've asked this.

I was looking for help on what to say/do in communicating internally on Monday when I'm inevitably contacted again.

I've decided what I'll do from the advice and just personally would prefer if the thread could be closed now.

Thanks all again for the help.

iwillhtfu · 16-01-2021 6:45pm

CelticRambler wrote: »

Are you not going to tell us what happens? :pac:

Probably concerned that this thread will be discovered by his "friend"

TippCashel · 16-01-2021 7:42pm

iwillhtfu wrote: »

Probably concerned that this thread will be discovered by his "friend"

Sorry - I'm not quite sure what's so funny here.

I asked for advice and I got it. Why bother with comments like the above?

iwillhtfu · 16-01-2021 7:48pm

TippCashel wrote: »

Sorry - I'm not quite sure what's so funny here.

I asked for advice and I got it. Why bother with comments like the above?

Ah now stop, it was a joke nothing more. Have you called your boss yet?

16-01-2021 7:50pm

TippCashel wrote: »

Sorry - I'm not quite sure what's so funny here.

I asked for advice and I got it. Why bother with comments like the above?

What happens if you're put through a disciplinary process, will you update then looking for help?

LawBoy2018 · 16-01-2021 7:51pm

Spill the beans!!

con___manx1 · 17-01-2021 12:28am

Download a phone call recorder app and record the phone call. Just incase your boss slips up in the call.
You should never add someone from work on social media. Unless you get along really well and hang out outside of work.
Just tell them what they want to hear in the phone call so you don't get in trouble.
Your colleague is a dirty rat by the way by the looks of it.
Don't no how scum like that look at themselves in the mirror. Hope karma catches up with him.

GerardKeating · 17-01-2021 3:38am

TippCashel wrote: »

he sees me tweeting about a lot which is a Start-Up Business (no income yet) in a very similar field but not remotely near the scale of the company we work with.

TippCashel wrote: »

Declaration of conflict of interest seems like a good play.

Could you have been researching a new business idea that you wanted to propose to your managers, but couched it as a startup to hide what you were doing until you were ready to present it to them...

qwerty13 · 17-01-2021 4:26am

You’ve been really incredibly naive, but it sounds like you’ve done nothing terribly wrong yet.

My instinct would be to be totally up front about this, delete all social media engagement with your other work, and stop working on other projects!

You may well be subject to a disciplinary, but if your reputation is as good as you feel that it is, then I’d hope it would go your way. But do take this as a lesson. And an excellent point raised earlier re IP rights. You’ve left yourself utterly wide open here.

Del2005 · 17-01-2021 4:53am

TheBoyConor wrote: »

And this colleague and so called "friend" that ratted you out to the senior guy..... I'd be having a word with him over ratting you out too . That was a dick move of the worst type

When you post something on social media you rat yourself out.

My company does ethics training and if you know that someone has a conflict of interest then you have to report it. The OP posted in public and the friend could have got in trouble for not reporting it.

Lucifer · 17-01-2021 5:24am

It is also possible that the friend was put up to it by management and wasn't the one who brought it to their attention. They may have pressured the friend into finding out further information before confronting you. They may not be a rat as everyone is concluding. Could be, but may not be.

qwerty13 · 17-01-2021 6:15am

Sorry, but the ‘rat’ thing is ridiculous. The OP has been posting stuff on social media. And guess what, shock horror, it was seen!

The ‘outing’ of the OP was done themselves. The lack of forethought was on the OP. They’re in a pickle now, and they might not have done anything that cost their employer anything yet, but they're on quite wobbly ground IMO.

Big Bag of Chips · 17-01-2021 1:50pm

Thread locked at OP's request.

Work asking about side projects

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