Should we be wary of celebrating the moon landings given it was white and male?

ToddyDoody · 21-07-2019 5:24pm

I'm all for a black woman walking on the moon.

whisky_galore · 21-07-2019 5:38pm

igCorcaigh wrote: »

That was also going on of course.
But compared to the rest of the world, which would not be so democratic to our standards today, they made amazing improvements.

If I had a choice of living in 1960s USA or 1960s USSR I know what I'd pick.

suicide_circus · 21-07-2019 6:33pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

If I had a choice of living in 1960s USA or 1960s USSR I know what I'd pick.

and if we take it that the USA still hold the balance of power militarily in the world today, what country would we prefer? China? Russia?

Outlaw Pete · 21-07-2019 6:52pm

This crap is getting more and more common and while I understand people getting frustrated at it being called out all the time, it has to be, as if it is not, it will just increase.

astrofool · 21-07-2019 7:06pm

To be fair, all that needs to happen is for Buzz Aldrin to self-identify as female, problem solved.

is_that_so · 21-07-2019 8:13pm

seamus wrote: »

Nonsense tbh. Rose tinted glasses.

I bet your father believed your generation were pansies with no life skills.

I bet the parents of those who died in Normandy all believed their kids were being brought up soft and with no life skills.

Every generation thinks the next one is ridiculous, aimless and ruining society. Then they become the 50+ generation, realise they've been left behind and that they're the ones lacking critical modern life skills, not the other way around.

This is as much of a sweeping generalisation as the post you replied to. Life skills allow you to function in society. Some of them are innate. Successive generations may whinge about some elements of the newest one but it doesn't mean they are wholly wrong. Some fundamental skills are absent in some recent generations.

AllForIt · 22-07-2019 3:06am

What if we put all women on the moon. Would that solve the problem?

gozunda · 22-07-2019 3:22am

Should we be wary of celebrating the moon landings given it was white and male?

Tbh - that reads that the moon is 'white and Male'. Now I always heard tell there was a man in the moon and at night the moon does have a definitive look of whiteness about it - so the problem is?

blinding · 22-07-2019 3:41am

gozunda wrote: »

Tbh - that reads that the moon is 'white and Male'. Now I always heard tell there was a man in the moon and at night the moon does have a definitive look of whiteness about it - so the problem is?

Now . we’ll have to colour the moon black just to keep the peace .

johnmcdnl · 22-07-2019 4:09am

Has anyone actually read the articles? The title of this thread is very far of the mark of what the articles talks about.

Washington times article just talks about how the culture was at the time, which it does seem to be white, male and horrible for family life.

The other article simply points out that at the time, all of the equipment was designed for men (which it was) and how the system at the time ended up resulting in a system where women couldn't enter the program. Some of the equipment is actually still in use today, which is actually still a hindrance on more women joining the space program, which is a valid point to make perhaps in the context of the article.

There's times when generation snowflake are an embarrassment to look at, but likewise there's plenty of times when generation 'I go straight to the comments section on the online forum before reading the article' look for issues that don't exist.

Neither article attacked how it was then, simply acknowledged that the environment at the time was how it was then, and instead of talking about rewriting history, or saying we shouldn't celebrate the past (neither article talk about celebrating or lack of celebration) suggest that looking to the future we learn from the past, and just gives us an opinion about the social status of the world at the time.

As we look back at the Apollo mission and forward to Artemis, it is important to examine the gender biases of the early space program for lessons learned. If we want to land the first woman on the moon, let’s make sure she has tools designed with her in mind. Eliminating the legacy of gender bias is just one small step.

With work all-encompassing, “it took a real toll on the family environment. A lot of families just didn’t survive,” Sieck says. “It was long hours. You finally got a Saturday off, you played golf or went fishing or had an afternoon poker party with fellow worker friends.” Sunday, it was often back to work. Divorce was rampant. Especially in Florida. Cape Canaveral became the capital of kaput unions. The court was overwhelmed. In Brevard County, 1,600 divorce cases were filed each year in the late 1960s, and 1,200 granted, Judge Volie Williams told a local publication.

Manic Moran · 22-07-2019 6:51am

igCorcaigh wrote: »

The Soviet Union had this very controversial idea, that no matter what your background, identify or heritage, you can work towards the future of your society. Incendiary stuff.

It also helped, if you were female, to be willing to put out for the superiors. Women in the WW2 Red Army, for example, are well known, what is less well known were the conditions under which they had to operate. Look up “Polevaya Pokhodnaya Zhena”, it means “mobile field wife”. Even Zhukov had one.

Not that the US Army at the time was idyllic either, it was still racially segregated. Which I guess means we’re supposed to object to the US Army in WW2 or some such.

Tony EH · 22-07-2019 10:34am

Manic Moran wrote: »

It also helped, if you were female, to be willing to put out for the superiors. Women in the WW2 Red Army, for example, are well known, what is less well known were the conditions under which they had to operate. Look up “Polevaya Pokhodnaya Zhena”, it means “mobile field wife”. Even Zhukov had one.

This implies that there was some kind of rapey scenario going on. There wasn't. Most relationships between the men and women of the Red Army happened organically, in the same way that they do under most other circumstances. A so called PPSh, generally, wasn't under any duress in a relationship with another Soviet soldier and it was entirely her own decision if she wanted to enter into it or not. "Mobile field wife" sounds rather dodgy, but it's not unlike most army slang terms in that respect.

That doesn't mean that rapes or other forms of sexual harassment didn't happen to some women in the Red Army from other Red Army personnel. But, documented cases are very hard to find and even harder to verify. And it's true that some women found themselves the subject of canteen whispers if they suddenly got a promotion, because they were sleeping with a ranking officer. But, scuttlebutt in an army is rife in any case and, to be frank, it would have been odd if such "behind the back" talk didn't happen.

However, the more nefarious members of the Red Army tended to keep rape as a "tool" for dealing with the women of their enemies instead and that's been rather well documented over the years.

blinding · 22-07-2019 10:44am

White Men have done Great stuff .

Hopefully everyone else will soon catch up .

astrofool · 22-07-2019 1:31pm

blinding wrote: »

Now . we’ll have to colour the moon black just to keep the peace .

There is a reason that the confederacy has a great fear of lunar eclipses.

Mad_maxx · 22-07-2019 3:35pm

Danzy wrote: »

The modern Left and progressive movements are also self obsessed and a bit lazy. Liking a cause but not difficult hours activism

Identity politics was a way of making oneself the focus of the struggle, rather than those scabbie proles in their terraced houses with their wrong views, **** em.

There are a lot of people in the Left who dislike the working-class, vehemently.

Or in the case of travellers, view them as helpless exotic pets who's cause it's trendy to support.

James Brown · 22-07-2019 3:39pm

An amazing achievement.

This is the best commentary on the moon landing:

Whitey on the Moon
Gil Scott-Heron

A rat done bit my sister Nell.
(with Whitey on the moon)
Her face and arms began to swell.
(and Whitey's on the moon)
I can't pay no doctor bill.
(but Whitey's on the moon)
Ten years from now I'll be payin' still.
(while Whitey's on the moon)
The man jus' upped my rent las' night.
('cause Whitey's on the moon)
No hot water, no toilets, no lights.
(but Whitey's on the moon)
I wonder why he's uppin' me?
('cause Whitey's on the moon?)
I was already payin' 'im fifty a week.
(with Whitey on the moon)
Taxes takin' my whole damn check,
Junkies makin' me a nervous wreck,
The price of food is goin' up,
An' as if all that s*** wasn't enough
A rat done bit my sister Nell.
(with Whitey on the moon)
Her face an' arm began to swell.
(but Whitey's on the moon)
Was all that money I made las' year
(for Whitey on the moon?)
How come there ain't no money here?
(Hmm, Whitey's on the moon)
Y'know I jus' 'bout had my fill
(of Whitey on the moon)
I think I'll sen' these doctor bills,
Airmail special
(to Whitey on the moon)

Capt'n Midnight · 22-07-2019 7:36pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

An amazing achievement.

This is the best commentary on the moon landing:

The space race was part of the cold war arms race.

Jim Hacker: "Math has become politicized: If it costs 5 billion pounds a year to maintain Britain's nuclear defences and 75 pounds a year to feed a starving African child, how many African children can be saved from starvation if the Ministry of Defence abandoned nuclear weapons?"

Sir Humphrey: "That's easy: none. They'd spend it all on conventional weapons."

- Yes Minister

statesaver · 22-07-2019 8:47pm

Steyr 556 wrote: »

No women on D-Day either, shocking lack of representation.

Aye, the sheer toxic masculinity of that day. #YesEquality

Poor Uncle Tom · 22-07-2019 9:33pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

An amazing achievement.

This is the best commentary on the moon landing:

Played to the music from the finger violin....

ILoveYourVibes · 22-07-2019 9:34pm

Do little girls deserve dreams?

AH says NO.

Wibbs · 22-07-2019 9:52pm

The Dalai Lama wrote: »

Don't forget, many of the scientists and engineers were Nazis.

#celebratediversity

Indeed DL and for all the talk of "moon landing conspiracies" for the hard of thinking and the plain moronic, that was an actual government conspiracy that didn't come to light until much later on, like fully into the wider public consciousness in the 90's. Operation Paperclip where the US grabbed as many nazi scientists and their gear as they could after the war, brought them to the US, buried their originally very damning war crime reports and falsified "good German" backgrounds and even granted them American citizenship and paraded guys like Von Braun around in front of TV and cinema audiences and dinner with the president.

The Russians grabbed a few too, though to be fair to them they worked the ex nazis like slaves and when done with them off to the gulags they tended to go, where they were worked, starved or plain shot to death. Few enough survived that. Proper order. No dinners with the Soviet premier in the Kremlin.

riclad · 22-07-2019 10:00pm

it,s not fair to judge america in the 60,s by the rules of society in 2019 .If there was a new moon landing in 2019 there would very likely be a
woman or a black astronaut in the crew .
on the shuttle columbia there was one black and one female astronaut .

ILoveYourVibes · 22-07-2019 10:07pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed DL and for all the talk of "moon landing conspiracies" for the hard of thinking and the plain moronic, that was an actual government conspiracy that didn't come to light until much later on, like fully into the wider public consciousness in the 90's. Operation Paperclip where the US grabbed as many nazi scientists and their gear as they could after the war, brought them to the US, buried their originally very damning war crime reports and falsified "good German" backgrounds and even granted them American citizenship and paraded guys like Von Braun around in front of TV and cinema audiences and dinner with the president.

The Russians grabbed a few too, though to be fair to them they worked the ex nazis like slaves and when done with them off to the gulags they tended to go, where they were worked, starved or plain shot to death. Few enough survived that. Proper order. No dinners with the Soviet premier in the Kremlin.

Actually the culture of scientific discovery in the former USSR was really disturbed by that influence. Several immoral programs with zero real scientific value.

A lot of those people were simply mad hatters.

Dr. Bre · 22-07-2019 10:10pm

If it was white and male then it was defo a hoax ! We can’t be trusted ..

ILoveYourVibes · 22-07-2019 10:18pm

Dr. Bre wrote: »

If it was white and male then it was defo a hoax ! We can’t be trusted ..

Nazis can definitely not be trusted. https://www.nationalgeographic.com.au/history/nasas-secret-nazis.aspx

Tony EH · 22-07-2019 10:20pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed DL and for all the talk of "moon landing conspiracies" for the hard of thinking and the plain moronic, that was an actual government conspiracy that didn't come to light until much later on, like fully into the wider public consciousness in the 90's. Operation Paperclip where the US grabbed as many nazi scientists and their gear as they could after the war, brought them to the US, buried their originally very damning war crime reports and falsified "good German" backgrounds and even granted them American citizenship and paraded guys like Von Braun around in front of TV and cinema audiences and dinner with the president.

The Russians grabbed a few too, though to be fair to them they worked the ex nazis like slaves and when done with them off to the gulags they tended to go, where they were worked, starved or plain shot to death. Few enough survived that. Proper order. No dinners with the Soviet premier in the Kremlin.

How much of a "Nazi" those scientists were is very much up for debate. An awful lot of them were merely lip service Nazis and didn't care what type of government was involved, hence there easy transition after the war.

Later, Von Braun was tasked with informing Hollywood about "science stuff" for a number of classic sci fi movies in the 50's. But he said that they were only interested in what he said when he agreed with what the production wanted to hear. Any caveats (or actual science) he offered was met with deaf ears.

ILoveYourVibes · 22-07-2019 10:25pm

Tony EH wrote: »

How much of a "Nazi" those scientists were is very much up for debate. An awful lot of them were merely lip service Nazis and didn't care what type of government was involved, hence there easy transition after the war.

I doubt that.

Secondly why were they allowed to be safe in the US when thousands of refugees who also could contribute to society were not during this time?

Could it be that people in the US sympathized with them?

Its not for nothing the thinking changed in the US in the scientific community all those NAZI rocket scientists suddenly deciding a super aggressive attitude is necessary then we have the cold war.

branie2 · 22-07-2019 10:32pm

This is silly

Tony EH · 22-07-2019 10:35pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I doubt that.

Doesn't matter what you doubt, to be honest. Many people in scientific professions and others paid lip service to the Nazis because it was prudent to do so at the time.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Secondly why were they allowed to be safe in the US when thousands of refugees who also could contribute to society were not during this time?

Could it be that people in the US sympathized with them?

Or maybe the they offered the US something the US wanted? I.E. an edge on rocketry?

In other words, when the USSR were reverted back to the "bad guy" status the had before 1941, the US poached a number of "top minds" to get an edge. In the world of realpolitik, a lot of what we consider "politics" goes out the window and a practical edge supersedes any other notion.

Infini · 22-07-2019 10:43pm

Gimme A Pound wrote: »

People in the West really seem to strive to find problems.

First World Problems as usual.

ILoveYourVibes · 22-07-2019 10:44pm

branie2 wrote: »

This is silly

It is. But those are my feelings on the topic and I am not turning them around now.

kikilarue2 · 22-07-2019 10:49pm

Are you guys reading the articles linked or just the tweet?

The NYT article doesn't say anything like we shouldn't celebrate the moon landing. It's an examination of the challenges facing women astronauts in 2019, viewed through the lense of history.

The most recent lesson emerged in April, when NASA had scheduled a spacewalk that was, quite by accident, staffed by two female astronauts. The agency had to restaff the spacewalk because it had only one spacesuit that was the correct size for both women.

This is not an indictment of NASA in 2019. But it does demonstrate a causal chain that begins with the Apollo program and leads through to present-day staffing choices.

The suits, known as extravehicular mobility units, were designed more than 40 years ago, based on the designs of the Apollo missions, at a time when all astronauts were men. Only four of the original 18 suits are still rated for spaceflight, and all of those are on the space station.

ILoveYourVibes · 22-07-2019 11:07pm

Tony EH wrote: »

Doesn't matter what you doubt, to be honest. Many people in scientific professions and others paid lip service to the Nazis because it was prudent to do so at the time.

I am calling b.s on this one.
Many others offered their serviced to the allies and defected.

Klaus Fuchs. Major Karl Plagge. the Nazi Party member who employed and protected and saved the lives of 1240 Jews.

Albert Goering. (Herman's Brother). He betrayed his family his part and his country and fled Germany and rescued many Jews. He secured exit permits for Jews, protected their assets, and even physically removed people from stormtroopers' grips. He used his connections and name to escape.

Heinz Heidrich whose brother Reinhard Heidrich basically engineered and thought up the whole final solution also rescued many jews. Heinz Heidrich's story is really sad though because he was afraid to be captured by Gestapo and so he committed suicide.

In his book about SS physicians of Auschwitz, Robert Jay Lifton mentions Hans Münch as a doctor whose commitment to the Hippocratic Oath was stronger than his loyalty to the SS.

The vichy Navy sank their own ships rather than let Nazis have them. I know they are French but still they were ruled by the Nazis at that time.

Kurt Gurstein who tried to alert the world to the holocaust. And his 'Gerstein Reports' helped to convict war criminals. Sadly he too committed suicide.

The US didnt help any of these people.

Many Germans opposed the Nazis and fled Germany. In every walk of life from science to the military to the arts. Conrad Veidt. Lotte Lehman. (Goering sent her the weirdest abusive letters for ages) Lotte lenya so many more. These people couldn't even go home after the war.

US intelligence however helped many escaping fascist in what were poetically called the 'Ratlines'.

Many of these Rats did end up in NASA and Russian space programs.

Edgware · 22-07-2019 11:12pm

riclad wrote: »

it,s not fair to judge america in the 60,s by the rules of society in 2019 .If there was a new moon landing in 2019 there would very likely be a
woman or a black astronaut in the crew .
on the shuttle columbia there was one black and one female astronaut .

And remember the bigger the crew the more females as there will be a lot of extra cleaning and cooking to do

kikilarue2 · 22-07-2019 11:13pm

Edgware wrote: »

And remember the bigger the crew the more females as there will be a lot of extra cleaning and cooking to do

That's a very witty joke.

Edgware · 22-07-2019 11:25pm

kikilarue2 wrote: »

That's a very witty joke.

Thanks
I do try

ILoveYourVibes · 22-07-2019 11:29pm

Edgware wrote: »

And remember the bigger the crew the more females as there will be a lot of extra cleaning and cooking to do

There will be robots. :cool:

ILoveYourVibes · 22-07-2019 11:35pm

kikilarue2 wrote: »

Are you guys reading the articles linked or just the tweet?

The NYT article doesn't say anything like we shouldn't celebrate the moon landing. It's an examination of the challenges facing women astronauts in 2019, viewed through the lense of history.

Yeah but OP wanted to express some non logical stuff ...we all gotta do that sometimes.

Falling down moment.

I have my falling down moments too! You dont wanna be around me at those times! :mad:

Edgware · 22-07-2019 11:38pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

There will be robots. :cool:

And who will poish and shine the robots outfits I ask? You can't escape it
Women are necessary on these space ships

utyh2ikcq9z76b · 22-07-2019 11:43pm

What about having a white pride parade?

ILoveYourVibes · 22-07-2019 11:44pm

Edgware wrote: »

And who will poish and shine the robots outfits I ask? You can't escape it
Women are necessary on these space ships

ILoveYourVibes · 22-07-2019 11:49pm

Maeve Gentle Savings wrote: »

What about having a white pride parade?

I knew it would come to this.

Tony EH · 22-07-2019 11:55pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I am calling b.s on this one.

It doesn't matter.

And there's nothing in your post I don't already know.

ILoveYourVibes · 22-07-2019 11:56pm

Tony EH wrote: »

It doesn't matter.

To you.

Tony EH · 22-07-2019 11:59pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

To you.

If that makes you feel better.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

ILoveYourVibes · 23-07-2019 12:00am

Tony EH wrote: »

If that makes you feel better.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It really doesn't. It just disappoints me.

mad muffin · 23-07-2019 12:01am

Maeve Gentle Savings wrote: »

What about having a white pride parade?

That’s on the 17th of March

ILoveYourVibes · 23-07-2019 12:02am

The mirror is not pretty to some people.

Of course no one in Nasa was a Nazi.

Tony EH · 23-07-2019 12:04am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

It really doesn't. It just disappoints me.

Never be disappointed if someone has a different point of view to yours.

ILoveYourVibes · 23-07-2019 12:04am

mad muffin wrote: »

That’s on the 17th of March

Hey that is green pride!

Should we be wary of celebrating the moon landings given it was white and male?

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