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The V&V Feedback Thread part II

2»

Comments

  • #52
    ganmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    Unearthly wrote: »
    100% no to a private forum.

    A suggestion wanted by people who do not have the best interests of the forum but not by the people who want to use the forum

    A sub forum is not a private forum


  • #53
    Tilikum17
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Tilikum17


    ganmo wrote: »
    A sub forum is not a private forum

    Your buddy above was asking for it to be made private.

    “For the couple of posters who want to discuss animal welfare have a sub forum off the vegan forum and make it by invite only and private”


  • #54
    Nekarsulm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,219 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Well this isn’t relevant at all.

    It’s not ‘obvious’ how people are educating themselves at all. So that’s a nonsense comment.

    Well, the habit of posting videos from poor countries with poor animal welfare conditions, and starring Irish farmers by association makes it 'obvious'.

    I don’t care where it’s happening so you’re obsession with ‘foreign’ is also irrelevant. Animals don’t have nationalities. I first became a vegetarian while I was living in Ireland.

    If you think animals don't have nationalities, you know very little about farming.


    It’s nice you recognise that some countries are ‘countries with often deplorable or non-existent standards of animal cruelty regulations’ because Irish people are eating animals from those countries too. But in general borders or flags don’t come in to my consideration as to what is or isn’t animal cruelty. You need to understand that.

    I deplore the practice of importing chicken from Vietnam, prawns and tiger prawns from Malaysia, beef from South America and the USA etc.
    Often raised without the welfare standards Irish farmers adhere to, and almost always using chemicals banned in the EU since the late 1980's    .

    My beliefs aren’t fragile and to suggest that is insincere imo. I don’t like defending my choices, daily, to people who have ZERO interest in my choices other than to feel threatened by them. It’s a complete waste of my time and ruins the readability of the forum for those that want to use it for genuine interest reasons.

    I believe the moderation has improved and hope it continues to tighten on those that only want to disagree with the choices made by V&V’s and their reasons for it.

    I too believe moderation has improved, and it's nice to see some of the inflammatory generalisations about Irish farmers have been reigned in.

    I have no problems with vegans choices, more than 3/4's of the food I, ( and probably 99% of all farmers) eat is vegan.


  • #55
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,478 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    You seem like a nice bloke and you listen to posters here and respect them, but I don't see how you can deplore meat being imported here if Irish farmers send their beef and dairy products worldwide. Live animal exports to countries with terrible animal welfare standards too. 13,000 cattle send to libya in 2019 ffs. You were even agreeing with the latest venture of flying cows from Ireland to other countries, it just sounds a bit contradictory.


  • #56
    Nekarsulm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,219 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    TMy contention would be that there is a major difference in sending chilled or frozen beef and lamb to consumers in the EU, when their origin and the care and husbandry they received here during their life is to the highest of standards.
    And traceable and provable.

    Dairy products being exported?
    How does than impact on the quality of life of the cow?
    If the cheese is eaten in Bantry, Bruges or Beiruth makes no difference.
    Our local milk Co OP sends Caesin ( by product extracted after butter is churned) to Mexico and world wide.
    It's used in the Pharma industry.
    The Panadol tablet you take for a headache is largely constituted from Caesin with a tiny amount of the active chemical that affects your system in the way the drug is designed to do.

    Compare that to the typical South Americian beef animal which is either straight from a feed lot where it's been administered growth promotes, or rounded up from vast branches on the pampas where many notifiable ( by European standards) diseases are endemic.
    Or of tiger prawns, grown in tanks in the far east and mutilated to cause them to grow larger than nature intended.

    I disagree with live export of cattle to middle eastern countries, and vehemently disagree with their slaughter practices.

    As to flying calves to European farms, the reason I think it is worth trying is that transport time is greatly reduced, and by effect, stress on the animal is minimised.


  • #57
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,478 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Oh I know exports and imports aren't going anywhere soon, but one of the arguments we often face here is how we import our food from all over as if that's purely a v&v thing - sorry if you weren't one of them but it seems to be a standard argument on boards.


  • #58
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    Oh I know exports and imports aren't going anywhere soon, but one of the arguments we often face here is how we import our food from all over as if that's purely a v&v thing - sorry if you weren't one of them but it seems to be a standard argument on boards.

    Yeah.

    A bizarre question often asked in this forum.

    Another example of having to spend time defending our choices.

    Not everyone has gone V or V because of the environment.

    And yes a lot of foods are imported/exported so why the focus on where V or V food comes from ?

    It’s simply an effort to wind-up or derail.


  • #59
    Unearthly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,047 ✭✭✭Unearthly


    ganmo wrote: »
    A sub forum is not a private forum

    See above for the suggestion

    A sub forum makes no sense either. There is no need for any sub forum. The activity is limited as it is


  • #60
    Ten of Swords
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,063 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    Thank you to everyone who has participated in the thread so far. From reading the last thread in detail it's clear that this one is running more smoothly and being used for it's intended purpose instead of just arguing It's also encouraging to read people's feedback and there is a genuine appetite for improving the forum. I want to collate some of the feedback so far and respond to a couple of points
    Deleted User wrote: »
    I have asked 3 direct questions to mods but never received any reply which was disappointing. Each question was to try and understand the moderating system better so I would not waste anyone’s time.

    Fair point - communication from the mods could be better, me in particular!
    ganmo wrote: »
    stuck my nose in yesterday to find something contrary to the charter in the first line of the first post that had been there for a week.

    I don't want to derail the thread dealing with specific incidents in other threads but since this was brought up as feedback - the item in question had been dealt with by way of a mod note later in the thread but once it had been reported the post was snipped within hours
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Seems to me the punishments that are handed out are worth accepting, by some, because they are so lenient.

    Infractions, warnings and bans are handed out for breaches of the rules, this is done across the board by all moderators on the site in their various fora. Is there a perception that the moderation here is light touch or hands off? I'm keen to explore this further.
    NcdJd wrote: »
    The vegan and vegetarian forum should be no different to any other forum with regard to moderating and regulars in here should not be above the ban hammer

    It isn't, and they're not.
    eviltwin wrote: »
    I think there could be a sub forum or mega thread for issues relating to farmers vs vegans. I don't have a problem with the debate but the main page isn't the appropriate place for it and is very off putting. However some people want to discuss that and they should be able - I don't think its fair that it be dumped in the farmers forum either, I'm sure some of the members there are equally fed up with it all.

    No topic is off limits (within site rules) but a thread dedicated to farmers vs vegans will not end well. If posters wish to discuss aspects of veganism or aspects of farming that's fine but the problems begin when threads get adversarial and it will be moderated accordingly.
    Bigbooty wrote: »
    What is really stiffling discussion here is those that are offended because we talk about animal rights

    Once the discussion is respectful and within the rules it's not a problem. Animal welfare is specifically mentioned in point 2 of the charter, including not shouting down people espousing their perspective
    Bigbooty wrote: »
    I wouldnt dare dream of policing their language like they want to do here.

    Good point, but it's important to report all posts that you want mods to review. It takes just a moment and if the content is objectionable or trolling then it can be dealt with.
    Mac Taylor wrote: »
    What I take issue with is the incendiary language used as has been mentioned before to make a point. If similar language was used to describe vegans then I would fully expect them to stand up for their beliefs and respond regardless of what forum it was posted in.

    A quick search of the word vegan on the site throws up some interesting results from various fora. How people react to such posts is up to them and if they wish to challenge such posts, or stand up for their beliefs as you say, then that is up to them but it's abundantly clear that incendiary terms for vegans and veganism are very prevalent in other fora. The V&V forum, at the very least, should not be another one of them.
    Bigbooty wrote: »
    You're free to post here but we shouldn't have to explain ourselves or have someone try and initiate a heated discussion about deforestation in the Amazon over a vegan burger or eating tofu just because they said "cruelty free".

    This is a major problem in the forum. Vegetarians and Vegans constantly having to defend ethos and beliefs in the V&V forum. There's healthy debate and there is brigading, and observing the threads in the forum has shown that one becomes the other very quickly - and that is stopping.
    Bigbooty wrote: »
    we should still be allowed to discuss it without having to be held to a tribunal.

    Same point as above, constantly defending veganism in the V&V forum
    White Clover wrote: »
    there is quite a dossier of evidence, of this blatant and corrupt one sided moderation.

    It is telling, to note that every Vegan contributor to this thread has praised the moderating over the last number of weeks. That in itself tells quite alot.

    OK - what exactly does this tell you?
    eviltwin wrote: »
    Where are all the vegetarians? Why aren’t they posting? Let’s face it, it’s a very acrimonious forum at times. Why would anyone visit?

    Agreed, and I hope some of the outcomes of this feedback thread can start to address this
    Deleted User wrote: »
    I don’t want to be part of a forum where you have to defend your choices. I want to be part of a forum where I can share my experiences, ideas and, mostly importantly, good recipes.

    Same point again, constantly defending veganism in the V&V forum
    NcdJd wrote: »
    For the couple of posters who want to discuss animal welfare have a sub forum off the vegan forum and make it by invite only and private.

    I'm not in favor of this to be honest, but if there is enough interest it can be brought to the site admins for consideration
    NcdJd wrote: »
    But some of it is very insulting and there has been occasions where farmers have been called rapists and murderers and I don't think anyone should accept commentary like that.

    This has not happened in the forum in recent times, if it has please report such post(s). We are trying to improve moderation and such terms are not acceptable.
    Nekarsulm wrote: »
    I too believe moderation has improved, and it's nice to see some of the inflammatory generalisations about Irish farmers have been reigned in.

    Inflammatory generalisations are not permitted, this applies equally to everyone
    Deleted User wrote: »
    And yes a lot of foods are imported/exported so why the focus on where V or V food comes from ?

    It's a valid topic for discussion, if someone wishes to talk about it they can as long as they are mindful of the charter


    Keep the feedback coming :)

    Moderator: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender, Vegan & Vegetarian

    Category Moderator: Social & Fun



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  • #61
    White Clover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,665 ✭✭✭White Clover


    Ten of Swords wrote: »
    Thank you to everyone who has participated in the thread so far. From reading the last thread in detail it's clear that this one is running more smoothly and being used for it's intended purpose instead of just arguing It's also encouraging to read people's feedback and there is a genuine appetite for improving the forum. I want to collate some of the feedback so far and respond to a couple of points



    Fair point - communication from the mods could be better, me in particular!



    I don't want to derail the thread dealing with specific incidents in other threads but since this was brought up as feedback - the item in question had been dealt with by way of a mod note later in the thread but once it had been reported the post was snipped within hours



    Infractions, warnings and bans are handed out for breaches of the rules, this is done across the board by all moderators on the site in their various fora. Is there a perception that the moderation here is light touch or hands off? I'm keen to explore this further.



    It isn't, and they're not.



    No topic is off limits (within site rules) but a thread dedicated to farmers vs vegans will not end well. If posters wish to discuss aspects of veganism or aspects of farming that's fine but the problems begin when threads get adversarial and it will be moderated accordingly.



    Once the discussion is respectful and within the rules it's not a problem. Animal welfare is specifically mentioned in point 2 of the charter, including not shouting down people espousing their perspective



    Good point, but it's important to report all posts that you want mods to review. It takes just a moment and if the content is objectionable or trolling then it can be dealt with.



    A quick search of the word vegan on the site throws up some interesting results from various fora. How people react to such posts is up to them and if they wish to challenge such posts, or stand up for their beliefs as you say, then that is up to them but it's abundantly clear that incendiary terms for vegans and veganism are very prevalent in other fora. The V&V forum, at the very least, should not be another one of them.



    This is a major problem in the forum. Vegetarians and Vegans constantly having to defend ethos and beliefs in the V&V forum. There's healthy debate and there is brigading, and observing the threads in the forum has shown that one becomes the other very quickly - and that is stopping.



    Same point as above, constantly defending veganism in the V&V forum



    OK - what exactly does this tell you?



    Agreed, and I hope some of the outcomes of this feedback thread can start to address this



    Same point again, constantly defending veganism in the V&V forum



    I'm not in favor of this to be honest, but if there is enough interest it can be brought to the site admins for consideration



    This has not happened in the forum in recent times, if it has please report such post(s). We are trying to improve moderation and such terms are not acceptable.



    Inflammatory generalisations are not permitted, this applies equally to everyone



    It's a valid topic for discussion, if someone wishes to talk about it they can as long as they are mindful of the charter


    Keep the feedback coming :)


    You have deliberately not quoted my full post so that it will be taken out of context.
    Will you put up a list from the last 2 months of reported posts and actions taken on the forum, so that we can see if there is light touch moderation prevalent on one side and heavy handed ignorant Moderation on the other side?


  • #62
    Ten of Swords
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,063 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    White Clover wrote: »
    Please don't be fooled by some of your fellow Vegans, some of whom are most vocal and aggressive on this forum, and who are clearly trouble makers and Sh1t stirrers of the highest calibre

    <Snip> Not feedback, attacking posters

    <Snip> Not feedback, attacking posters

    <Snip> Attacking Moderation

    At this stage, there is quite a dossier of evidence, of this blatant and corrupt one sided moderation.

    It is telling, to note that every Vegan contributor to this thread has praised the moderating over the last number of weeks. That in itself tells quite alot.

    It is time that boards.ie has a thorough examination of this forum and start handing out forum bans to those who constantly break the charter and to those who are so disingenuous as to call themselves Vegans.

    ^^ This is the only actual feedback that I can salvage from your post

    White Clover your full post is there for anyone to see, it was edited yesterday for the reasons marked in bold text and I am not going to restore the edited text as it was an attack on two posters in the forum.
    White Clover wrote: »
    Will you put up a list from the last 2 months of reported posts and actions taken on the forum, so that we can see if there is light touch moderation prevalent on one side and heavy handed ignorant Moderation on the other side?

    No - this is not something you will get from any moderator in any forum. Reports are confidential and we do not discuss mod actions. Some mod actions are visible on thread, such as cards or mod edits, and some are not. That's really all there is to say about that.

    Are you asking me if there is one sided moderation or telling me that in your opinion there is?

    As above, if you have constructive feedback about the forum I'd love to read it. If you have an issue with how the forum is being moderated you can take that up in the help desk forum.

    Moderator: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender, Vegan & Vegetarian

    Category Moderator: Social & Fun



  • #63
    henryporter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,089 ✭✭✭henryporter


    In general I'm happy with the direction that the forum has taken - I was avoiding it for some time as it had been invaded by people who had no interest in Veganism or Vegetarianism other than for the purpose of being contrarian - I've made my decision a long time ago not to have living my life harmful to any animal and the fact that there is a forum for like minded people to discuss any aspect of their adopted lifestyle is great.

    I grew up on a dairy farm in the west of Ireland back in the 70s and 80s, and my wife's family business was intensive poultry farming, so both of us have an understanding that farming is by it's very nature not cruelty free - I'm glad that the forum has been overhauled to afford me better protection for that stance, rather than having to accept abuse, preaching, belittlement or sarcasm from people with vested interests in lifestyles and careers contrary to my own.


  • #64
    Tilikum17
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Tilikum17


    henryporter wrote: »
    In general I'm happy with the direction that the forum has taken - I was avoiding it for some time as it had been invaded by people who had no interest in Veganism or Vegetarianism other than for the purpose of being contrarian - I've made my decision a long time ago not to have living my life harmful to any animal and the fact that there is a forum for like minded people to discuss any aspect of their adopted lifestyle is great.

    I grew up on a dairy farm in the west of Ireland back in the 70s and 80s, and my wife's family business was intensive poultry farming, so both of us have an understanding that farming is by it's very nature not cruelty free - I'm glad that the forum has been overhauled to afford me better protection for that stance, rather than having to accept abuse, preaching, belittlement or sarcasm from people with vested interests in lifestyles and careers contrary to my own.

    Excellent post.


  • #65
    Ten of Swords
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,063 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    White Clover do not post in this thread again

    Your latest post, which I have just deleted, was not feedback. It was petty point scoring and having another dig at moderation.

    Moderator: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender, Vegan & Vegetarian

    Category Moderator: Social & Fun



  • #66
    NcdJd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 994 ✭✭✭NcdJd


    What's the story of videos being posted showing graphic scenes of violence against animals ? Will they be removed or left with a NSFW warning as in the one posted in the off topic chat thread ? Do videos that have graphic scenes of violence against either animals or humans for that matter, just get the NSFW treatment and left on the Boards.ie website ?

    What's boards general policy on the posting of videos depicting violent acts ? Should the poster not get at least a warning for it ?


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  • #67
    Ten of Swords
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,063 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    The clip you are referring to advertised a documentary on the slaughterhouse trade, it did not show gratuitous violence for the sake of it or cruelty for the amusement of others and the individual sections depicting animals amounted to barely a couple of seconds across the 4.30 minute video.

    Per the V&V forum charter. Videos containing any animal cruelty or similar must be labelled NSFW
    NcdJd wrote: »
    Should the poster not get at least a warning for it ?

    NSFW tags have been added to the post containing the video and a mod note was added to the thread. Beyond that I am not discussing anything further regarding that post.
    NcdJd wrote: »
    What's boards general policy on...

    Help Desk Forum

    Moderator: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender, Vegan & Vegetarian

    Category Moderator: Social & Fun



  • #68
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Well if there is one thing we should take from that video, it's to buy the next butcher you meet a pint.
    Best if you hold it for them too.


  • #69
    Lady Haywire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,181 ✭✭✭Lady Haywire


    I have had issues with moderation in the past, posts which should have been carded or actually banned for, mysteriously just disappeared :rolleyes:
    Current moderation, better than before. Harsher than other forums though.


  • #70
    Ten of Swords
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,063 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    I'm conscious that the thread has been quiet for nearly 2 weeks until the posts today.

    With that in mind is there any more constructive feedback about the forum that anyone would like to give? We never planned for the thread to be left open indefinitely so we will wrap it up fairly soon I think :)

    Moderator: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender, Vegan & Vegetarian

    Category Moderator: Social & Fun



  • #71
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Hi all..

    There are a number of topics rsised here I like to add to if I may.

    I've noticed that some here have asked why farmers would be bothered posting in v&v. Coming from a farming background - the simple answer is that farming and food production threads are extremely common on the forum. It's perhaps therefore not surprising that farmers with knowledge and experience on these subjects should contribute. I've also seen a suggestion that because there's no common ground or wtte - that those farmers should simply be banned. Not really sure how that works on a what is a public forum tbh. Certainly there is no prohibition on posters here commenting on threads in f&f. Nor should there be imo.

    I've also note there are a couple of references to discussion and "constantly defending veganism" or wtte.

    In my time on the forum and as a long term contributor - I've yet to see any poster constantly posting that veganism or vegetarianism shouldn't be allowed etc. Those taking that pov or taking the proverbial were quickly headed off by Tar from doing so.

    It is however notable from this thread that even everyday type discussion now seems to have become a major bone of contention and bizarrely seems to be conflated with the notion that any alternative point of view on any subject on just about anything else is 'antivegan, an attack or 'wasting everyone's time' or wtte.

    Those who genuinely contribute to a discussion and have relevant experience and knowledge are certainly not being 'antivegan' or attacking anyone by simply engaging in an existing discussion. Especially where other posters have first hand knowledge and experience of a topic.

    Some examples
    eg - where a claim is made that farming in Ireland leads to deforestation in the Amazon - another poster pointing out that in fact farming in Ireland does not contribute to deforestation in the Amazon is by no means an attack and certainly not 'antivegan'

    Ditto. A thread on the topic 'are meat free burgers healthy?' - a poster adding there own knowledge on the topic or pov is not an attack on veganism.

    I've noticed the issue of 'cruelty' has once again arisen. The topic was subject to an extensive discussion in a fairly recent help desk thread. A thread which involved contributions from all sides and none resulted in a change of the v&v charter - where that charter protected certain opinions - namely references to opinions on cruelty being sacrosanct

    To quote Panch18 from that thread.
    The topic in hand is NOT banning the word cruel. The topic on hand is removing it from the charter. Having it in the charter allows people to use the word cruel as they want, when they want, and to do it without others having the option to challenge them on the statements demonised, abused and insulted on a public forum because a minority group make up a definition of something themselves and are then allowed to use it against farmers on a public forum?

    I know that issue was dealt with by Admin and the charter duly amended. Yet it would still appear that posters are still being attacked for simply commenting on these issues when they are raised - and that even after the help desk thread was closed and the agreed changes made.

    That said overall and imho - it's certainly not regular discussion which cause some notable issues. Rather it's name calling, trolling other boards users and the deliberate flaming of threads with personal comments. Even in this thread I've noticed a number of derogatory terms being used to refer to other posters which have crept in. Certainly no need of that imo.

    Overall and imo the forum has become a much more negative place for discussion compared to a number of years ago. Posting on just about any topic has become antagonistic and guessing game as to what is allowed and what isn't.

    Btw I certainly don't advocate for a private forum btw but if other posters are going to be constantly attacked for simply contributing to topical threads - then perhaps the only practical solution which remains is that comments in these threads are pre-approved. Something like this in pets


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  • #72
    Ten of Swords
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,063 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    OK as I mentioned yesterday I think the thread has run it's course at this stage and ample opportunity has been given to allow everyone to give their feedback.

    Thanks to all who participated in the thread, it is genuinely appreciated. The mod team will discuss the main themes arising in this thread and go from there.

    :)

    Moderator: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender, Vegan & Vegetarian

    Category Moderator: Social & Fun



This discussion has been closed.
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