Dog breeding

CarolineBee · 17-02-2019 8:38pm #1

https://commercialsaleofpuppies.wordpress.com/2017/01/01/republic-of-ireland/

I couldn’t believe the amount of legal breeders in a country that regularly has to send rescue dogs to UK for rehoming (and they’re the lucky ones!).
What can possibly be the justification for allowing dog breeding on such a scale?
One site listed near my family home is authorised for 200 breeding bitches!!
I’d love to know what the criteria is for these licences and how animal welfare is regulated at these sites... this really feels instricinly wrong.

em_cat · 17-02-2019 10:28pm

CarolineBee wrote: »

https://commercialsaleofpuppies.wordpress.com/2017/01/01/republic-of-ireland/

I couldn’t believe the amount of legal breeders in a country that regularly has to send rescue dogs to UK for rehoming (and they’re the lucky ones!).
What can possibly be the justification for allowing dog breeding on such a scale?
One site listed near my family home is authorised for 200 breeding bitches!!
I’d love to know what the criteria is for these licences and how animal welfare is regulated at these sites... this really feels instricinly wrong.

Very little I’d suspect. We have some of the worst animal breeding & welfare laws I’ve ever come across.

As for for needing 200 breeding bitches it’s supply & demand. I don’t agree with it, but unfortunately people seem to think fueling tea cup, micro, poodle cross, teddy bear cute is perfectly acceptable.

Bells21 · 17-02-2019 11:04pm

I remember looking a few years ago and a couple of places in my local area had licences for 200 breeding bitches. And in what I'm sure is an absolute pure coincidence, another person with the same last name but with an address just up the road also has a licence for 200 breeding bitches.

CarolineBee · 17-02-2019 11:15pm

Bells21 wrote: »

And in what I'm sure is an absolute pure coincidence, another person with the same last name but with an address just up the road also has a licence for 200 breeding bitches.

Coincidence I’m sure

I just can’t imagine 200 dogs living in a commercial breeding environment with any sort of love, joy or comfort. We domesticated this species and to treat them like livestock is inhumane surely?

Bells21 · 18-02-2019 11:14am

CarolineBee wrote:

I just canâ€™t imagine 200 dogs living in a commercial breeding environment with any sort of love, joy or comfort. We domesticated this species and to treat them like livestock is inhumane surely?

There's definitely no love, joy or comfort. They are seen as money making objects by the people who keep that many.
Bringing any of that to the dogs would eat into their profits.

sillysmiles · 18-02-2019 5:53pm

A quick tally - and not saying that it is not without mistakes, but that is a list of over 5,000 breeding bitches in the country. Depending on the breed the litter size could be anywhere up to what, 8, 10? Even if you take a conservative average of 4 pups per litter - if each bitch only has one litter per year (which I suspect is not the case) that is 20,000 pups per year.

WTAF
:eek::eek::eek::eek::mad::mad::mad:

CarolineBee · 18-02-2019 8:58pm

That is a terrifying figure! I’m going to write to a few media outlets over the weekend to see if any will pick up the story.... I know it’s only a start but I can’t believe this. Be interesting to cross reference that number against the total number of new dog licences issued each year

sillysmiles · 18-02-2019 11:28pm

I also don't understand - seeing as all pups are meant to be micro chipped by law before leaving the breeders establishment, how full traceability isn't used. This is very possible - similar to what happens with cattle.

*Actually I do understand - there is no will to enforce it and no economic driver to make it happen.

Abba987 · 18-02-2019 11:35pm

That's very sad. And that's just the licensed ones. Poor creatures can't be looked after.

Sheepdish1 · 18-02-2019 11:59pm

I would imagine there are far more than 200 breeding bitches on the farms. Strange as this thread was posted as I was only looking at that list today and noticed how many large scale farms there are particularly in Cavan.

It is incredibly wrong to treat dogs as ''agricultural'' animals. The welfare of these dogs is really poor but people are lining the breeders pockets as they are buying these puppies as they want particular breeds.

Panorama did a documentary and whelping boxes, which are illegal, where in use on these farms but people still buy them as they ''want to know what they are getting''. This was aired and many people saw it but still buy these puppies. Also other people are not aware they are buying these puppies. The documentary was extremely upsetting and it is shameful that this is happening in Ireland.

The breeding mothers have *horrendous* lives and the puppies are more prone to genetic and behavioural issues due to the stress during pregnancy and early weeks. Many of them are not chipped, worms and can carry parvovirus which is a particularly horrible and fatal disease. IMO these large scale breeders don't care and are in it for the money.

There are strict laws on agricultural animals and they are regulated as the meat is for human consumption but there seems to be little or no regulations for dog breeding. For example, cows and pigs can't be stressed as the stress hormone released isn't good for the meat. So effort is made to reduce stress levels in agricultural animals and disease control is very thorough. This isn't the case for puppy farms.Even from a socialisation point of view it is just not possible to look after and socialise that many puppies.

I don't know why live exports of animals isn't being massively clamped down on. Even from a disease control perspective it is shocking that so many dogs are being exported out of Ireland. That is only one aspect of dog exports. Greyhounds are exported to breed and be ran in countries that have zero animal welfare laws

Of course there are some responsible but the large scale farms you refer is not responsible breeding imo. The puppies are lucky as they get out of there but the mothers are overbred and kept in appalling conditions:(

Knine · 19-02-2019 9:11am

Sheepdish1 wrote: »

I don't know why live exports of animals isn't being massively clamped down on. Even from a disease control perspective it is shocking that so many dogs are being exported out of Ireland. That is only one aspect of dog exports. Greyhounds are exported to breed and be ran in countries that have zero animal welfare laws:(

It is clamped down. Each puppy needs to have a pet passport & be a certain age to travel and they do catch some being smuggled out but the majority probably get through. The litter sizes are actually smaller though maybe an average of 4 or 5 for these small cross breeds.

If there was no market then there would be no puppy farmers. People are buying them. Every second dog you see is one of these crosses. It is an insult to reputable hobby breeders. I put so much time & effort into my puppies so they are bombproof going to their new homes!

People also have no patience. They want a puppy & they want it now. I get so many inquiries about getting a puppy " next month" I'm not Tesco & so can't meet the demand so off they go to the popular websites.

Don't get me started on the Adopt don't Shop brigade. If these same people had the cop on to realise that it is not Reputable Breeders filling up rescues then we would not need to be adopting & some lovely breeds would not be in danger of dying out. I cringe when I see this slogan

CarolineBee · 19-02-2019 1:25pm

Knine wrote: »

It is clamped down. Each puppy needs to have a pet passport & be a certain age to travel and they do catch some being smuggled out but the majority probably get through. The litter sizes are actually smaller though maybe an average of 4 or 5 for these small cross breeds.

If there was no market then there would be no puppy farmers. People are buying them. Every second dog you see is one of these crosses. It is an insult to reputable hobby breeders. I put so much time & effort into my puppies so they are bombproof going to their new homes!

People also have no patience. They want a puppy & they want it now. I get so many inquiries about getting a puppy " next month" I'm not Tesco & so can't meet the demand so off they go to the popular websites.

Don't get me started on the Adopt don't Shop brigade. If these same people had the cop on to realise that it is not Reputable Breeders filling up rescues then we would not need to be adopting & some lovely breeds would not be in danger of dying out. I cringe when I see this slogan

I get the cringe when this statement is brought to the extreme. I’m one of the Adopt don’t Shop brigrade but that doesn’t mean I see any issue with reputable breeders like you’ve described yourself. I think the message is important for the average person wanting a dog to ask them to consider adoption as a first idea. It may not be suitable for them, or they are really keen on starting a new puppies life with them to experience that - and they are perfectly entitled to do so. However breed specific rescues exist, rescues with puppies exist so I would always encourage people to research those options first. We should be in a world where responsible breeders can’t meet demand and have waiting lists.

loveisdivine · 19-02-2019 1:53pm

Knine wrote: »

Don't get me started on the Adopt don't Shop brigade. If these same people had the cop on to realise that it is not Reputable Breeders filling up rescues then we would not need to be adopting & some lovely breeds would not be in danger of dying out. I cringe when I see this slogan

So what should we do with the thousands of dogs in rescues then? If we shouldn't be promoting adoption over buying.

Knine · 19-02-2019 3:48pm

loveisdivine wrote: »

So what should we do with the thousands of dogs in rescues then? If we shouldn't be promoting adoption over buying.

How many would be in rescue if people did their research before getting a dog or were a bit more responsible with the dogs they do own?

How many rescues make quite a few quid out of rescuing? There are great rescues, then there are some where the dogs should be rescued from them!

Sheepdish1 · 19-02-2019 3:49pm

Knine wrote: »

It is clamped down. Each puppy needs to have a pet passport & be a certain age to travel and they do catch some being smuggled out but the majority probably get through. The litter sizes are actually smaller though maybe an average of 4 or 5 for these small cross breeds.

If there was no market then there would be no puppy farmers. People are buying them. Every second dog you see is one of these crosses. It is an insult to reputable hobby breeders. I put so much time & effort into my puppies so they are bombproof going to their new homes!

People also have no patience. They want a puppy & they want it now. I get so many inquiries about getting a puppy " next month" I'm not Tesco & so can't meet the demand so off they go to the popular websites.

Don't get me started on the Adopt don't Shop brigade. If these same people had the cop on to realise that it is not Reputable Breeders filling up rescues then we would not need to be adopting & some lovely breeds would not be in danger of dying out. I cringe when I see this slogan

It is not clamped down in my opinion. Many puppies seized in the back of vans in ports are taken of the breeder but there is not sufficient penalties imposed to act as a deterrent, they just take the hit on the 20/30/50 pups seized and carry on.
I would imagine the amount caught is very small compared to what gets through.Many puppies seized have no passports, chips or adequate veterinary care.

In terms of dogs being exported Ireland is far more lenient on dogs compared to agricultural livestock for example. The penalties are enormous if farmers don't adhere to strict regulations, traceability, correct submission of documentation and proof of disease free stock. If farmers breach these regulations they will face huge fines but I have yet to see a case where a dog breeder has been prosecuted to the extent a farmer would be.

It sounds like you are a responsible breeder but these thread is taking about puppy mills that have 200 breeding bitches. Of course people want certain breeds
but many aren't even aware of these massive scale farms. A family member of mine goy her dogs from reputable breeder and that is ok. They had to wait a few months and visited the breeder on numerous occasions. The breeder actually visited family members home to screen it. It wasn't a puppy farm as being discussed in this thread.

Sheepdish1 · 19-02-2019 3:51pm

Knine wrote: »

How many would be in rescue if people did their research before getting a dog or were a bit more responsible with the dogs they do own?

How many rescues make quite a few quid out of rescuing? There are great rescues, then there are some where the dogs should be rescued from them!

Far many people decide on a whim, ''I want a puppy, now now now''. Or a want ''x'' breed without doing any research into breed needs or grooming demands

_Brian · 19-02-2019 3:55pm

Surely a FOI request from the licensing body will tell exactly how many pups are being chipped by these places.

Knine · 19-02-2019 5:09pm

_Brian wrote: »

Surely a FOI request from the licensing body will tell exactly how many pups are being chipped by these places.

Most are not chipped though or registered. I get the Breed Registration figures every year through my hobby.

Sheepdish1 I said the majority of puppies probably get through the rather random checks. The problem is there is no punishment if caught with these unfortunate dogs.

Sheepdish1 · 19-02-2019 7:02pm

Knine wrote: »

Most are not chipped though or registered. I get the Breed Registration figures every year through my hobby.

Sheepdish1 I said the majority of puppies probably get through the rather random checks. The problem is there is no punishment if caught with these unfortunate dogs.

Yes, because they aren't livestock there is little to no regulation imo. Even from a disease control point of view a farmer would not get away with loading animals onto a ferry a distributing them as he / she pleases. Ireland has become the puppy farm capital of Europe.

Many of these dogs on puppy farms are bred far more than recommended over short periods. They are kept similarly to the way battery cage hens are kept. That is also another appalling example of animal welfare law in Ireland:( Some of these are bought by rescues and it is shocking the state that they are in...Ireland's laws are not tough enough imo

CarolineBee · 19-02-2019 7:32pm

_Brian wrote: »

Surely a FOI request from the licensing body will tell exactly how many pups are being chipped by these places.

I’m planning on submitting several FOI requests on this subject over the weekend.... this can’t continue to be accepted

CarolineBee · 19-02-2019 7:54pm

So I am a fully paid up member of the Adopt don’t Shop brigade

.... that doesn’t mean I have issues with small scale responsible breeders. I know several and see that for some people it is the best solution. Also very valid point made re the effective conservation of some breeds through people dedicated to this.
I do believe that adoption should also be the first point of call though... many breed specific rescue organisations exist if people are really keen on a specific breed, equally puppies can be rescued if someone really wants the experience of a dog growing with them. In the ideal world reputable breeders would be sat with long waiting lists as people wait for a suitable time for the pups to arrive - like the poster who is a breeder said, responsible breeders are not Tesco with supply on demand.
Sadly the government happily endorses the mass production by licensing and that is abhorrent to me. Like many have said livestock welfare is better endorsed.

As for document checks at ports I travel back from England every 8 weeks with my dog, very large mastiff/staffy x, I paid £90 for his passport and vacs - it has never been checked at either side! (Running joke with my Dad who thinks I’m mad for having one and I swear I’m getting close to pulling up at the Garda checkpoint at the dock road to get them to at least look at it)

Sheepdish1 · 22-02-2019 8:15pm

I would imagine if it was livestock animal you’d have to have every box ticked. Unfortunately this is why so many greyhounds are shipped to other countries, some of which have no animal welfare laws.

I couldn’t believe the news I heard today about a Carlow breeder being sentenced to three years in jail and fined €35,000. €35,000 really is not enough imo as this was a large scale farm but it is a step in the right direction which is great to see.

I could be mistaken in saying this but I think these type of large scale farms usually get notice that they are due to be inspected so I would guess there is plenty of adjustments made before the inspection takes place.

Ireland also farms mink on this large scale for fur which is incredibly cruel. We have awful animal welfare laws. If one just looks at the horses wandering around housing estates and wasteland in appalling conditions. They should be confiscated and this should be against the law. Again, if this was livestock the farmer would be held accountable

CarolineBee · 22-02-2019 9:11pm

Sheepdish1 wrote: »

I would imagine if it was livestock animal you’d have to have every box ticked. Unfortunately this is why so many greyhounds are shipped to other countries, some of which have no animal welfare laws.

I couldn’t believe the news I heard today about a Carlow breeder being sentenced to three years in jail and fined €35,000. €35,000 really is not enough imo as this was a large scale farm but it is a step in the right direction which is great to see.

I could be mistaken in saying this but I think these type of large scale farms usually get notice that they are due to be inspected so I would guess there is plenty of adjustments made before the inspection takes place.

Ireland also farms mink on this large scale for fur which is incredibly cruel. We have awful animal welfare laws. If one just looks at the horses wandering around housing estates and wasteland in appalling conditions. They should be confiscated and this should be against the law. Again, if this was livestock the farmer would be held accountable

Yes - pre arranged visits only. Unbelievable.

I did some very quick maths based on 2017 census data v number of licenced breeding bitches at the farms. Assuming 10 pups/bitch/year and it came out as 10% more than the likely demand for dogs in Ireland each year. That doesn’t account for the many other ways people acquire dogs. How the hell the licensing process works, apart from creating revenue for the CoCo, I don’t understand. It doesn’t limit the licences, it doesn’t enforce regulation of welfare....

Sheepdish1 · 24-02-2019 10:39am

Hi, I read in the independent that the farmer who has been jailed had been granted his license 6 months earlier by the country council after an inspection that he had two weeks warning in advance.

This farm was particularly deplorable and had two and a half tonnes of dead animals removed from it. I’m shocked by this as this farm couldn’t have gotten to that state in 6 months

muddypaws · 24-02-2019 11:14am

Sheepdish1 wrote: »

Hi, I read in the independent that the farmer who has been jailed had been granted his license 6 months earlier by the country council after an inspection that he had two weeks warning in advance.

This farm was particularly deplorable and had two and a half tonnes of dead animals removed from it. I’m shocked by this as this farm couldn’t have gotten to that state in 6 months

Of course it didn't. The brown envelope culture is still alive and well, look at all of the puppy farms in Cavan that continue to get licensed

mymo · 24-02-2019 2:59pm

muddypaws wrote: »

Of course it didn't. The brown envelope culture is still alive and well, look at all of the puppy farms in Cavan that continue to get licensed

There's 3 more in the same area as the guy convicted, and that's just the registered ones, I believe there's a couple of others too, I'm about half hour from there, and daughter has friends near there, it's a joke what's going on, everyone knows, they've been reported, but nothing is being done.

CarolineBee · 24-02-2019 9:02pm

Sheepdish1 wrote: »

Hi, I read in the independent that the farmer who has been jailed had been granted his license 6 months earlier by the country council after an inspection that he had two weeks warning in advance.

This farm was particularly deplorable and had two and a half tonnes of dead animals removed from it. I’m shocked by this as this farm couldn’t have gotten to that state in 6 months

The inspection was carried out by 2 ISPCA staff and local dog warden.

24-02-2019 9:22pm

CarolineBee wrote: »

The inspection was carried out by 2 ISPCA staff and local dog warden.

Local dog warden doesn't work directly for the council in this case I believe. Country Councils who don't outsource warden and pounds tend to have a better record.
Given some of the comments/statements over new years eve by the heard of a particular organisation regarding their plans to destroy animal rescue in Ireland, I'm not surprised that the situation in the news occurred.

Cherry Blossom · 24-02-2019 10:12pm

DubInMeath you have already been infracted for persisting with this conversation when asked not to. I told you if you persisted with this you would be permanently banned from the forum. I'm going to take into account the fact that you have not named anyone on this occasion but you are still going against a mod instruction and I am therefore issuing you with a one week ban. This is your final warning on this. Once more and you are gone permanently.

Laois_Man · 25-02-2019 12:03am

Sheepdish1 wrote: »

I couldn’t believe the news I heard today about a Carlow breeder being sentenced to three years in jail and fined €35,000. €35,000 really is not enough imo as this was a large scale farm but it is a step in the right direction which is great to see.

Well his 16-year-old son was killed in that car crash in Carlow early this morning - So he is paying!

RIP to the young fella all the same!

MintyMagnum · 25-02-2019 12:52am

Laois_Man wrote: »

Well his 16-year-old son was killed in that car crash in Carlow early this morning - So he is paying!

RIP to the young fella all the same!

Read the kids were targeted with online abuse/computer hacking since 2015. It was brought up in court. I don't condone the animal abuse but probably best to not go after the children.

Dog breeding

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