Was I scammed?

Trekky77 · 20-02-2019 1:04pm #1

I recently had a break down in my 2008 scenic. The car wouldn’t restart and it was towed to the nearest garage. I was in contact with the garage for a few days and they said they couldn’t find the problem. Eventually the owner said the cost of fixing the engine would be close to 1 grand after labor and parts etc.
I took this in good faith and said I would have the car towed to be scrapped. The owner however offered me €150 for parts and then he would recycle. I was happy enough to take that as it would cost the same to be scrapped. I dropped in the log book (garage owner said it was needed for recycling) and that was that.

However, today I recieved an email confirming the car for an NCT appt. I called the garage and didn’t let on about the Nct. He said that the car hadn’t been moved or stripped yet so he didn’t have the recycling cert. When I asked about the Nct appt he spoke to a colleague who had decided he was going to take it on for a ‘project’, he may replace the engine etc.

Have I been duped? Is this common practice? Do I have any fall back? Coming from someone no knowledge of cars whatsoever. TIA

David73 · 20-02-2019 2:00pm

The car probably only needed a new fuel filter costing 80 euro.

Demand your car back unless you get a cert of destruction.

Shefwedfan · 20-02-2019 2:30pm

Yes, very common at the moment....

Also all these scrap companies who have suddenly popped up, they are taking cars, fixing them and sticking them back on the road.....

bazz26 · 20-02-2019 2:38pm

Surely a working 2008 Scenic would still be worth more than the cost of spending 1k on repairing it? Just accepting scrap value of €150 for it without even getting a second opinion on the fault or paying the 1k to repair it just sounds crazy to me. We don't know how much the garage spent on fixing the issue. They could well have been hoodwinking you around the repairs or they could have genuinely diagnosed the problem and cost correctly but fixed it up and still made a profit from selling it on to someone else. We don't know though.

I think there is a costly lesson to learn here OP, it seemed that you rushed into scrapping the car and accepting their offer without fully looking at the car's value versus the cost of repairing or even getting a second opinion on the fault.

I'm not sure what you can do now, you technically accepted their offer of €150 and we happy to sell the car to them at that price.

banana_bear · 20-02-2019 2:44pm

bazz26 wrote: »

I'm not sure what you can do now, you technically accepted their offer of €150 and we happy to sell the car to them at that price.

Actually from what I read in the OP, he didn't sell the the car, he handed it in to be scrapped. Which would result in a certificate of destruction, which he'll be able to use to claim tax back, and which he won't get if the car isn't scrapped in the first place.

So unless that is wrong and the garage just said "here's 150 quid, we'll take it off you", the garage owes the OP the certificate of destruction. If they can't provide that, it means there is no deal.

Shefwedfan · 20-02-2019 2:50pm

banana_bear wrote: »

Actually from what I read in the OP, he didn't sell the the car, he handed it in to be scrapped. Which would result in a certificate of destruction, which he'll be able to use to claim tax back, and which he won't get if the car isn't scrapped in the first place.

So unless that is wrong and the garage just said "here's 150 quid, we'll take it off you", the garage owes the OP the certificate of destruction. If they can't provide that, it means there is no deal.

Does he/she have that in writing? I bet they don't

They probably dont even have a receipt but if they do it won't mention scrapping.....

Before handing over any car you should insist on a certificate of destruction, loads of people getting tax/NCT letters now because the car is still on the road

Doctors room ghost · 20-02-2019 2:53pm

He’s talking sh1te. If he was taking it on as a “project” why has he it booked in for an nct.amazing they told you it was fcuked but by magic he has it fixed and ready for an nct.he wants the log book so when it’s tested he can sell it on done deal and hel tell the buyer,he’s selling it for you if they ask about the log book.
Give him back the sweets money he gave you and get the car back off him or else watch it getting crushed and get the cert

Optimus Prime · 20-02-2019 2:57pm

I traded in my car to be scrapped last year when buying a new one (it was a name car dealership not a small car dealer) and i asked them if they needed the log book and they said it wasnt needed for scrapping if you hand it into a garage, I still have it at home somewhere.

Confused now reading this, if the OP signed the log book over to the garage, does that mean he basically sold it to them for 150 euro?

and if thats not the case and i didnt give the garage in my case the log book how did they scrap it ?

bazz26 · 20-02-2019 3:01pm

banana_bear wrote: »

Actually from what I read in the OP, he didn't sell the the car, he handed it in to be scrapped. Which would result in a certificate of destruction, which he'll be able to use to claim tax back, and which he won't get if the car isn't scrapped in the first place.

So unless that is wrong and the garage just said "here's 150 quid, we'll take it off you", the garage owes the OP the certificate of destruction. If they can't provide that, it means there is no deal.

Good luck with that.

punisher5112 · 20-02-2019 3:04pm

This has to be a wind up

David73 · 20-02-2019 3:17pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

This has to be a wind up

Everthing is a wind up to you!

Doctors room ghost · 20-02-2019 3:30pm

He fcukin fleeced the op and then came back for the mutton.
Offer him the money back and if he refused it report it stolen although your fcukd when he has log book

Toyotafanboi · 20-02-2019 3:44pm

Doctors room ghost wrote: »

He’s talking sh1te. If he was taking it on as a “project” why has he it booked in for an nct.amazing they told you it was fcuked but by magic he has it fixed and ready for an nct.he wants the log book so when it’s tested he can sell it on done deal and hel tell the buyer,he’s selling it for you if they ask about the log book.
Give him back the sweets money he gave you and get the car back off him or else watch it getting crushed and get the cert

I have to agree. Sounds like the OP was duped.

"A project" me bollix.

Ethics and nice thoughts aside it's very difficult to picture a happy ending for the OP at this point without going through major pain and effort.

What kind of garage are we talking here OP? Are they legit, long term operators or is it fly by night etc? Don't name names but give us an idea of the establishment.

Lord Nikon · 20-02-2019 4:02pm

If you hadn't signed the logbook, I would get in touch with Dept. of Transport(Shannon), and request replacement logbook. At least this way the car is still in your name, go to the garage and ask for the car back, that's in your name.
You can refute any allegation that you sold it, because you didn't sell it, it was to be scrapped.

punisher5112 · 20-02-2019 4:03pm

David73 wrote: »

Everthing is a wind up to you!

What?

Shefwedfan · 20-02-2019 4:10pm

Lord Nikon wrote: »

If you hadn't signed the logbook, I would get in touch with Dept. of Transport(Shannon), and request replacement logbook. At least this way the car is still in your name, go to the garage and ask for the car back, that's in your name.
You can refute any allegation that you sold it, because you didn't sell it, it was to be scrapped.

Some issues here
Have they provided anything to the owner to say they are scrapping the car?
If not then when you go back and demand the car they could charge you 10k for repairs to the car, if the car was not working and the OP had no idea what was wrong they can hardly argue what has been repaired and what has not
In regards to refuting, how exactly can they? if they have taken money then they have sold the car.....

The big piece of information missing, did the OP get anything from the garage in writing saying the car was to be scrapped?

Lord Nikon · 20-02-2019 4:21pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

In regards to refuting, how exactly can they? if they have taken money then they have sold the car.....

OP didn't sell it, the garage took the payment to scrap it.

Shefwedfan · 20-02-2019 5:55pm

OmegaGene wrote: »

op go and get the car back and pay them back the 150

If they have carried out repairs then he/she owes for them

7znbd9xmoiupye · 20-02-2019 6:10pm

OmegaGene wrote: »

the garage paid 150 to the owner of the car :-

The owner however offered me €150 for parts and then he would recycle.

but if he did it up is that not recyclling it. OP you can check on the nct site if it has passed nct

selectamatic · 20-02-2019 6:27pm

OmegaGene wrote: »

Feck that the mechanic has tried to scam the car owner here, demand the car back and tell them you will speak the the cops if need be

If the op dropped the log book into the garage then he has most likely been scammed(past tense) the chances of righting this now are few and far between. He in essence sold the car to the garage for €150.

The only hope would be if the op never signed the book and just gave it to the garage blank however I'm unsure as to the actual legalities around that sort of scenario.

It's unfortunate but I really can't see a garage that was supposedly willing to do someone being too cooperative now.

Shefwedfan · 20-02-2019 6:30pm

OmegaGene wrote: »

Feck that the mechanic has tried to scam the car owner here, demand the car back and tell them you will speak the the cops if need be

Yes ranting and raving will work

If the OP doesn't have any paperwork to say the car was going to be destroyed they haven't a leg to stand on

They got paid for the car, they willingly handed the car over to the garage...

What are the "cops" going to do?

Shefwedfan · 20-02-2019 6:42pm

OmegaGene wrote: »

The mention of them being involved might persuade the mechanic to give the car back if he isn’t inclined to do so at first, who said anything about ranting and raving.
Op was naive giving them the car for 150 without getting a second opinion but we all make mistakes

Read your last few posts for ranting and raving

Why would mention of the Garda persuade them to give the car back? They paid for the car, as I have said numerous times...unless the OP has a document saying the car will be destroyed they are wasting their time....

All the garage has to say to the Garda was the person sold the car to them, fair deal and now he has realized the car is worth more and wants it back....not the garages fault they didn't realize how much the car was worth

If the Garda get involved in this then every second hand sale in Ireland could be open for discussion.....

the_syco · 20-02-2019 6:42pm

Trekky77 wrote: »

However, today I recieved an email confirming the car for an NCT appt.

If you gave the car to them in the last 3 months, goto https://www.motortax.ie/OMT/changeVehicleDetails.do and see if your car has been changed ownership. If it hasn't, ask Shannon for a replacement logbook.

Once you get it, pop into the garage, and ask how the repairs are coming along, that you paid €150 for. Lack of agreement for destruction will go against them.

Trekky77 · 20-02-2019 6:43pm

In response to a few of the questions raised.

1) The garage is a small enough type one located in an industrial estate in Dublin 15. It has a Facebook page but not updated in a long time and has 4 stars when you Google them.

2) I handed over the logbook and key however I did not sign the logbook.

3) I received no receipt or any document from the garage.

I know in hindsight I made quite a few errors along the way but I thought the garage was acting in good faith. It's also quite a stressful time when the car breaks down all of a sudden. The owner did lie to me and say it was waiting to be scrapped when in fact it must be repaired in order to get to the NCT centre in Finglas.

I'm kind of worried about the fact that the car is still in my name. I haven't signed the logbook so I presume to change ownership they will have to sign my signature?

It might be a case of a lesson learned.

As an aside, I cancelled the NCT appt and didn't let the owner of the garage know. It may be the case that this is all satisfaction I can get from the whole thing.

7znbd9xmoiupye · 20-02-2019 7:10pm

Trekky77 wrote: »

In response to a few of the questions raised.

1) The garage is a small enough type one located in an industrial estate in Dublin 15. It has a Facebook page but not updated in a long time and has 4 stars when you Google them.

2) I handed over the logbook and key however I did not sign the logbook.

3) I received no receipt or any document from the garage.

I know in hindsight I made quite a few errors along the way but I thought the garage was acting in good faith. It's also quite a stressful time when the car breaks down all of a sudden. The owner did lie to me and say it was waiting to be scrapped when in fact it must be repaired in order to get to the NCT centre in Finglas.

I'm kind of worried about the fact that the car is still in my name. I haven't signed the logbook so I presume to change ownership they will have to sign my signature?

It might be a case of a lesson learned.

As an aside, I cancelled the NCT appt and didn't let the owner of the garage know. It may be the case that this is all satisfaction I can get from the whole thing.

How can the car be still in your name? If you did not sign the log book, how was ownership transferred? if anyone else signed your name surely it is a garda matter

I don't know this for sure and its not advice but if the garagetook it knowing they were givingan unfair price and with intent to put in back on the road while claiming to scrap it it may be a form of fraud

Ask a solicitor in one of the free flac centre maybe?

selectamatic · 20-02-2019 7:53pm

Since you haven't signed the logbook you may have some hope. Although proving you haven't signed it will be tricky if the garage forge your signature and send it to Shannon. You should maybe try asking in the legal forum about the legalities surrounding an unsigned logbook that is no longer in your possession. Then maybe seek the advice of a solicitor.

If the garage have the car fixed and decide to return it, you will be liable for the costs of the repairs.

7znbd9xmoiupye · 20-02-2019 8:14pm

selectamatic wrote: »

Since you haven't signed the logbook you may have some hope. Although proving you haven't signed it will be tricky if the garage forge your signature and send it to Shannon. You should maybe try asking in the legal forum about the legalities surrounding an unsigned logbook that is no longer in your possession. Then maybe seek the advice of a solicitor.

If the garage have the car fixed and decide to return it, you will be liable for the costs of the repairs.

if they did the gardai will be involved.

unless they have the ops signature to copy it will be unlikley to be anything similar

golondrinas · 20-02-2019 8:20pm

Doctors room ghost wrote: »

He fcukin fleeced the op and then came back for the mutton.
Offer him the money back and if he refused it report it stolen although your fcukd when he has log book

the log book was in the glove box (silly me ) when it was stolen sir.
Hope they don't have cctv in the spiders web, sorry garage .:eek:

selectamatic · 20-02-2019 8:21pm

Reagan Slow Terminology wrote: »

if they did the gardai will be involved.

unless they have the ops signature to copy it will be unlikley to be anything similar

True but will they go into such detail. Many of these kinda situations are put off as civil matters.

If the garage do give in they have the op on the hook for the costs of the repairs. Which judging by their initial quote will be dear too. It's hard seeing any outcome being easy on the op unfortunately.

Atlantic Dawn · 20-02-2019 8:23pm

Get them to sign the car over to themselves, give them 5 working days to do this, you can check Motortax.ie to see if ownership has transferred. After 5 days if they havn't, go to a Garda Station and then sign form for replacement logbook, when that arrives sign that over to the owner of the dealership and let them stick the car up their hole.

At the moment you are liable as registered owner for anything dodgy the car is caught doing, not a good place to be.

robtri · 20-02-2019 8:33pm

the Op was paid 150 for his car....

the garage while probably might have pulled the wool over his eyes, didnt do anything wrong.

they offered 150 for the car, according to the OP statement the garage did not say they where end of lifing it, so they can do whatever they want with it, it is their car now.

while no likes to be overcharged or underpaid, its not illegal, they made an offer the OP accepted... buying a car for less than its worth is not a crime

khaldrogo · 20-02-2019 8:55pm

David73 wrote:

The car probably only needed a new fuel filter costing 80 euro.

Bit of a baseless leap no?

mgbgt1978 · 20-02-2019 8:56pm

bazz26 wrote: »

Surely a working 2008 Scenic would still be worth more than the cost of spending 1k on repairing it?

You would think so Bazz. There's 15 '08 Scenics on DD right now. Only a small few asking more than €2k. Probably 50% of them are asking under €1.6k. Hard to justify spending a Grand on one when something else on it could go tits-up next week.
Obviously the €1k repair figure was pulled out of the Garage Owners ar$e, but if the OP believed that was the cost to repair it then getting rid of it doesn't seem like a totally crazy option.

BTW, lets hope he goes for something less Renaultish next time.:)

bfa1509 · 20-02-2019 9:58pm

Were you duped? Yes
Is this common practice? Yes
Do I have any fallback? No
Should I have brought it to a reputable garage/dealer? No, the more "reputable" they are, the more you would have been duped.

If you think about why dealers give you a deal on a new car if you trade in your old one "for scrappage", they are only just reducing the massive mark-up they have on the new car, taking your second hand car, dusting it off and selling it back into the used car market. They are making two profits off you and laughing their way to the bank "See ya in 12 months for your yearly service, hahaha

My advice for anyone is to import a second hand car (while you still can) and try and find a greasy independent mechanic in the sticks who knows what he's doing and has connections for cheap parts.

the_syco · 20-02-2019 10:21pm

Trekky77 wrote: »

garage owner said it was needed for recycling

Trekky77 wrote: »

However, today I recieved an email confirming the car for an NCT appt.

Well, technically, it IS being recycled. Just not the way you thought :pac:

Toyotafanboi · 20-02-2019 10:28pm

bfa1509 wrote: »

If you think about why dealers give you a deal on a new car if you trade in your old one "for scrappage", they are only just reducing the massive mark-up they have on the new car, taking your second hand car, dusting it off and selling it back into the used car market. They are making two profits off you and laughing their way to the bank "See ya in 12 months for your yearly service, hahaha

Jaysis, imagine that, you're not serious are you? A business looking to make money and not operate for cost! People can shop around and buy where they want, nobody has a gun to their head.

To aliken that to what happened to the OP here is totally wrong.

A garage selling cars at a profit is a business, it's not deceitful. The OP was told their car wasn't worth fixing, conned out of it for very little money when the later actions of the garage show that the car is very much repairable. They went to a garage for profession opinion in good faith and they were lied to, to better line the garages pockets.

bfa1509 · 20-02-2019 11:01pm

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Jaysis, imagine that, you're not serious are you? A business looking to make money and not operate for cost! People can shop around and buy where they want, nobody has a gun to their head.

Exactly. Why does this not apply here? The garage is a business too. He didn't have to take their money.

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

To aliken that to what happened to the OP here is totally wrong.

A garage selling cars at a profit is a business, it's not deceitful. The OP was told their car wasn't worth fixing, conned out of it for very little money when the later actions of the garage show that the car is very much repairable. They went to a garage for profession opinion in good faith and they were lied to, to better line the garages pockets.

The garage in the OPs case was no more decietful than a dealer would be. They are both playing on the ignorance of the customer for the sake of a profit. Nobody held a gun to anyone's head.

7znbd9xmoiupye · 20-02-2019 11:38pm

selectamatic wrote: »

True but will they go into such detail. Many of these kinda situations are put off as civil matters.

If the garage do give in they have the op on the hook for the costs of the repairs. Which judging by their initial quote will be dear too. It's hard seeing any outcome being easy on the op unfortunately.

all i can say is the garage would not rip me off like that and the gardai would not refuse to investigate

If the garage do give in they have the op on the hook for the costs of the repairs.

i doubt you can charge someone for work carried out during a an action of fraud. OP should see solicitor

Shefwedfan · 21-02-2019 10:28am

Reagan Slow Terminology wrote: »

all i can say is the garage would not rip me off like that and the gardai would not refuse to investigate

i doubt you can charge someone for work carried out during a an action of fraud. OP should see solicitor

Why would garda not refuse? are you Superman? or batman? maybe Spiderman!!! :P:P:P:P:P

7znbd9xmoiupye · 21-02-2019 1:14pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Why would garda not refuse? are you Superman? or batman? maybe Spiderman!!! :P:P:P:P:P

i would write to the super in the first instance. Ever done that?
I am not the one ripped off. i have been in a somewhat similar situation but the garage did not get away with it

Toyotafanboi · 21-02-2019 1:21pm

bfa1509 wrote: »

Exactly. Why does this not apply here? The garage is a business too. He didn't have to take their money.

The garage in the OPs case was no more decietful than a dealer would be. They are both playing on the ignorance of the customer for the sake of a profit. Nobody held a gun to anyone's head.

Generally when trading in to a dealer, you are trading in an operational car that you can drive away in and you can take your business where you wish.

The OP's car was a non runner, recovered to this garage who told them the car was an un-viable repair and offered to scrap the car for them, only to put it back on the road. Their options were far more limited and as a layperson they were easy pickings for a less than honest garage.

I'm probably worse for arguing the point, but how you can't see how this is different to driving your working car to a garage and looking for a trade in quote is beyond me.

OP wrote:

I recently had a break down in my 2008 scenic. The car wouldn’t restart and it was towed to the nearest garage. I was in contact with the garage for a few days and they said they couldn’t find the problem. Eventually the owner said the cost of fixing the engine would be close to 1 grand after labor and parts etc.
I took this in good faith and said I would have the car towed to be scrapped. The owner however offered me €150 for parts and then he would recycle. I was happy enough to take that as it would cost the same to be scrapped. I dropped in the log book (garage owner said it was needed for recycling) and that was that.

However, today I recieved an email confirming the car for an NCT appt. I called the garage ... he spoke to a colleague who had decided he was going to take it on for a ‘project’.

Have I been duped?

elperello · 22-02-2019 12:58am

I see little hope for the OP in this case.

I expect it's best to move on and get another car on the road. All the best with it.

One piece of advice for the future - if you get a breakdown have your car recovered to a garage/mechanic that you know and trust.

bfa1509 · 22-02-2019 1:22am

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Generally when trading in to a dealer, you are trading in an operational car that you can drive away in and you can take your business where you wish.

The OP's car was a non runner, recovered to this garage who told them the car was an un-viable repair and offered to scrap the car for them, only to put it back on the road. Their options were far more limited and as a layperson they were easy pickings for a less than honest garage.

I'm probably worse for arguing the point, but how you can't see how this is different to driving your working car to a garage and looking for a trade in quote is beyond me.

So you disagree that dealers play on the ignorance of customers for the sake of a profit? That would be a bold disagreement.

Raisins · 22-02-2019 2:52pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Yes ranting and raving will work

If the OP doesn't have any paperwork to say the car was going to be destroyed they haven't a leg to stand on

They got paid for the car, they willingly handed the car over to the garage...

What are the "cops" going to do?

I wouldn't take that as legal advice. I completely disagree. I doesn't look like a simple sale to me.

You could argue you had an agreement with the garage that in exchange for X they would scrap your car. Paperwork would only go towards proving the agreement but to say you don't "have a leg to stand on" without paperwork is nonsense. Loads of cases are won and / or lost on straight swearing matches between witnesses, including cases every day regarding the scope and meaning of contracts / agreements.

I don't think you'd struggle to prove what the agreement and understanding was between you and the garage unless you have reason to think it was a straight sale.

If I paid a company to take paperwork away for shredding I wouldn't expect to see it used in a national school for paper maché.

If a person, for any reason including environmental reasons, agrees with a car garage that for x sum they will turn your car into a cube then that's what they've contracted to do. They can't put it back on donedeal or paint it in Mayo colours and drive it to Croker.

Trekky77 · 22-02-2019 3:19pm

I was in touch with the garage again today. Long story short, the owner said I could buy the car back for €700 plus the €150 back.

At this stage I am probably go any further as it could develop into a he said she said situation and I have no faith in the garage to actually fix the vehicle.

Thanks for all your replies, I'll put it down as a lesson learned and always get a second opinion.

cruizer101 · 22-02-2019 3:44pm

Where is the 700 figure coming from, is he claiming they have done that amount of work on it?

Trekky77 · 22-02-2019 5:26pm

cruizer101 wrote: »

Where is the 700 figure coming from, is he claiming they have done that amount of work on it?

Yes that is the amount he is saying they have done on it.

selectamatic · 22-02-2019 5:34pm

Trekky77 wrote: »

Yes that is the amount he is saying they have done on it.

Did he outline what they did?

You should look for an itemized bill before payment.

Trekky77 · 22-02-2019 5:41pm

selectamatic wrote: »

Did he outline what they did?

You should look for an itemized bill before payment.

To be honest he just threw the figure out there and said I was trouble making after I asked was he going to forge my signature on the log book.

Tired to make me out to be the one in the wrong. I have the use of an avensis for a while so I may just keep that until I buy another.

selectamatic · 22-02-2019 6:06pm

Trekky77 wrote: »

To be honest he just threw the figure out there and said I was trouble making after I asked was he going to forge my signature on the log book.

Tired to make me out to be the one in the wrong. I have the use of an avensis for a while so I may just keep that until I buy another.

Well if the Renault is actually fixed and if they did do work on the engine then 700 mightn't be the worst of prices but no one knows unless you can find out exactly what they did.

That said they sound to be a right shower, so all of this is easier said than done.

Flippyfloppy · 22-02-2019 6:13pm

https://www.ccpc.ie Contact these guys for advice. Hope it goes well for you

Was I scammed?

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