Does Owen Keegan have a point re homeless?

mariaalice · 19-02-2019 3:48pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Vulnerable people need be classified differently to unemployed families with 5, 6, or 7 children claiming homelessness, though some of those families might fall into the same category. Genuine vulnerable people should have access to all available services. Some of the multi millions given to homeless “charities” could be better spent funding this support.

But that is exactly what the homeless charities and NGO do that is why they should be re classified, people have got stuck on the homeless bit and I would say a lot not just some of the families with 5, 6, or 7 children claiming homelessness would be in need of some sort of support.

There are chancers in every situation but they are not the biggest issue.

I would have an issue with the employment of policy advisors and the like by charities/NGO and with the narratives a lot of the homeless charities/NGO use.

corner of hells · 19-02-2019 3:55pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Having been the recipient of welfare on a couple of occasions, I’m only too aware of its benefits. It was a crutch when I needed it. I did not view it as a lifestyle choice.
I sourced my own home, in an area I could afford, not an area I wished to live in and funded it from my own wages.
The homeless crisis seems to be centered mostly in Dublin, where most of the homeless “Charities” are based. Stop paying millions to groups who duplicate services and put it into one central government agency and build homes.
If people are genuinely homeless and unemployed, then they cannot be fussy about where they live-within reason.
I’m sorry if my being an advocate of one being self reliant and willing to pay ones way offends you. It’s just the way I am. My culture, if you like.

The state is providing a lot of housing/accommodation for homeless people .
They just won't provide staff, it's left to charities to employ staff for day to day running.

It's too expensive for the state to employ social care teams directly.

This duplicity of service people talk , there's about eight homeless/housing charities.

What some of them are doing is providing services the state simply will not do.

corner of hells · 19-02-2019 3:59pm

mariaalice wrote: »

But that is exactly what the homeless charities and NGO do that is why they should be re classified, people have got stuck on the homeless bit and I would say a lot not just some of the families with 5, 6, or 7 children claiming homelessness would be in need of some sort of support.

There are chancers in every situation but they are not the biggest issue.

I would have an issue with the employment of policy advisors and the like by charities/NGO and with the narratives a lot of the homeless charities/NGO use.

No charity decides who's homeless.

mariaalice · 19-02-2019 4:04pm

corner of hells wrote: »

No charity decides who's homeless.

No of course not, but if the reality of the clients is an addiction, chaotic lives etc why does the donate narrative not reflect this instead it's usually about some down on his luck alcoholic.

corner of hells · 19-02-2019 4:06pm

mariaalice wrote: »

No of course not, but if the reality of the clients is an addiction, chaotic lives etc why does the donate narrative not reflect this instead it's usually about some down on his luck alcoholic.

I think I'm missing what you're saying , is the donate narrative the request for support off the public.

mariaalice · 19-02-2019 4:09pm

corner of hells wrote: »

I think I'm missing what you're saying , is the donate narrative the request for support off the public.

Yes, its form of dishonesty. I can see both sides of this argument but a lot of the charities/NGO do not help themselves either.

padd b1975 · 19-02-2019 4:10pm

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

We’re not allowed question this and if anyone does Sinn Féin ask them to resign.

It suits Sinn Fein and the left to have this “homeless” crisis.

Solving it would be detrimental to their campaign.

I'd love to meet the accountant who signed off on such vague numbers.

corner of hells · 19-02-2019 4:14pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Yes.

I have no idea , I'd guess the homeless down and out us a more viable option that asking somebody to donate to an IV using heroin addict.

gctest50 · 19-02-2019 4:14pm

About a dozen homeless chancers charidees receiving many millions every year in wages

The shower of parasites & wasters don't seem to
be very effective - still loads of people homeless

Not in their interest to even half fix it

corner of hells · 19-02-2019 4:17pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Vulnerable people need be classified differently to unemployed families with 5, 6, or 7 children claiming homelessness, though some of those families might fall into the same category. Genuine vulnerable people should have access to all available services. Some of the multi millions given to homeless “charities” could be better spent funding this support.

They're are being supported differently , it's called SLI.
Depending in you're needs , you are categorised accordingly.

mariaalice · 19-02-2019 4:18pm

corner of hells wrote: »

They're are being supported differently , it's called SLI.
Depending in you're needs , you are categorised accordingly.

It still going to cost money and a lot of the posters have an issue with public money being used that way.

corner of hells · 19-02-2019 4:19pm

gctest50 wrote: »

About a dozen homeless chancers charidees receiving many millions every year in wages

The shower of parasites & wasters don't seem to
be very effective - still loads of people homeless

Not in their interest to even half fix it

Eight working in accommodation support , have a look at the multitude of services provided by PMVT .

corner of hells · 19-02-2019 4:23pm

mariaalice wrote: »

It still going to cost money and a lot of the posters have an issue with public money being used that way.

I agree , but the state simply won't provide the staff to work in these services.

I'm a homeless service social care worker .
I'd love if the state would employ me directly , instead I'm employed by contract by a charity.

The state doesn't want to provide these services directly.

gctest50 · 19-02-2019 4:24pm

Conor Skehan : “We appear to have over 70 homeless charities – every single one needs to have an auditor. Every one needs a premises, a company secretary, a pension scheme.”

corner of hells · 19-02-2019 4:25pm

gctest50 wrote: »

Conor Skehan : “We appear to have over 70 homeless charities – every single one needs to have an auditor. Every one needs a premises, a company secretary, a pension scheme.”

So what would you suggest ?

mariaalice · 19-02-2019 4:28pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Vulnerable people need be classified differently to unemployed families with 5, 6, or 7 children claiming homelessness, though some of those families might fall into the same category. Genuine vulnerable people should have access to all available services. Some of the multi millions given to homeless “charities” could be better spent funding this support.

This is where the magical thinking comes in the services to vulnerable people will have to be provided by some organisation and that organisation will employ professional people to provide the support and should be professionally managed which will cost money.

I have visited a homeless service that is completely volunteer-run but its a religious organisation and rightly or wrongly Irish society has an issue with religious involvement in civic society.

gctest50 · 19-02-2019 4:29pm

Come up with something that actually works and may cost less than 20,000 per person

"On the basis of a crude analysis, this equates to an average State spend by person experiencing homelessness in

2013 of €18,577 and

2014 of €19,179"

DEFTLEFTHAND · 19-02-2019 4:34pm

gctest50 wrote: »

Conor Skehan : “We appear to have over 70 homeless charities – every single one needs to have an auditor. Every one needs a premises, a company secretary, a pension scheme.”

70?

Christ I didn't realise it was that high.

Has this become some sort of racket/scam

gctest50 · 19-02-2019 4:51pm

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

..........

Has this become some sort of racket/scam

If you found a "pair" that were homeless it adds up to about :

€ 3100 per month

Kivaro · 19-02-2019 4:53pm

corner of hells wrote: »

So what would you suggest ?

Not 70 homeless charities for a start.

gctest50 · 19-02-2019 4:58pm

"The Dublin Homeless Network represents the 23 charities across Dublin

- that's one charity for almost every seven rough sleepers in Dublin"

- J.Corcoran

Edgware · 19-02-2019 4:59pm

gctest50 wrote: »

Conor Skehan : “We appear to have over 70 homeless charities – every single one needs to have an auditor. Every one needs a premises, a company secretary, a pension scheme.”

And usually a do gooder C.E.O on a big whack. A careerist charity scam.
Same as the Third World crews

corner of hells · 19-02-2019 5:05pm

gctest50 wrote: »

"The Dublin Homeless Network represents the 23 charities across Dublin

- that's one charity for almost every seven rough sleepers in Dublin"

- J.Corcoran

70 or 23 ?

corner of hells · 19-02-2019 5:06pm

Kivaro wrote: »

Not 70 homeless charities for a start.

23 or 70 ?

nice_guy80 · 19-02-2019 5:07pm

downtheroad wrote: »

The McVerry accounts are an eye opener. I cannot believe the gall of this man to constantly be in the media bemoaning the lack of accommodation for homeless people in Dublin, when his Trust receives €14.5m in state funding, of which €8m is paid by the Dublin Regional Homeless Executive specifically for Homeless Services (per page 19 of the report), and the Trust then spent only €2.3m on Property Running Costs and €2.8m to purchase and refurbish homes (page 23).

I'm not defending them but...
food costs?
clothing?
staff?
vehicles? running costs?

gctest50 · 19-02-2019 5:11pm

corner of hells wrote: »

70 or 23 ?

corner of hells wrote: »

23 or 70 ?

Dunno, tell us all - you said you are the contracted professional

corner of hells wrote: »

............

I'm a homeless service social care worker .

I'm employed by contract by a charity

.

mariaalice · 19-02-2019 5:12pm

So when the charities/NGO are rechristened as...'bland name services for vulnerable something or other' and it costs millions to run and they employ professional staff to run the service, will there still be objections to the cost.

corner of hells · 19-02-2019 5:30pm

gctest50 wrote: »

Dunno, tell us all - you said you are the contracted professional

.

I dunno either , eight or so working with low threshold providing accommodation.
Coner Skehan couldn't elaborate or wouldn't.

corner of hells · 19-02-2019 5:31pm

mariaalice wrote: »

So when the charities/NGO are rechristened as...'bland name services for vulnerable something or other' and it costs millions to run and they employ professional staff to run the service, will there still be objections to the cost.

Professionals employed by the state ?

gctest50 · 19-02-2019 5:38pm

corner of hells wrote: »

gctest50 wrote: »

Dunno, tell us all - you said you are the contracted professional

.

I dunno either , eight or so working with low threshold providing accommodation.
Coner Skehan couldn't elaborate or wouldn't.

Accounting firm Mazars found in excess of 75 housing and homeless service providers

"every single one needs to have an auditor. Every one needs a premises, a company secretary, a pension scheme.”

mariaalice · 19-02-2019 5:39pm

corner of hells wrote: »

Professionals employed by the state ?

No it would be a NGO that morphed out of charity and have service agreements with the state to provide the supports required, the state can't employ everyone.

mariaalice · 19-02-2019 5:48pm

There is a couple of strands to this thread that is getting mixed up.

Are the services needed, who should provide them.

Duplication of services.

What exactly is homelessness and how is it defined.

What is the responsibility of the state and society?

Competing narratives based on political ideology.

corner of hells · 19-02-2019 5:49pm

gctest50 wrote: »

Accounting firm Mazars found in excess of 75 housing and homeless service providers

That's correct .
There's a lot providing housing and support for homeless .
They vary from MQI providing crash mats on a one night only basis right up to the housing Associations providing secure supported accommodation like Circle or Sophia housing.
Some of these do no fundraising and would rarely be in the public eye.

Others support vulnerable individuals who's needs are very broad.

The much maligned PMVT provides for example under 18 support , homeless services , drop in support , stabilisation and detox along with housing as well as advice.

There's also specialised homeless accommodation for individuals with entreched chronic mental I'll health , accommodation for homeless with HIV etc .

The reason all these exist is out of necessity .

corner of hells · 19-02-2019 5:50pm

mariaalice wrote: »

No it would be a NGO that morphed out of charity and have service agreements with the state to provide the supports required, the state can't employ everyone.

That's spot on.

19-02-2019 6:07pm

corner of hells wrote: »

They're are being supported differently , it's called SLI.
Depending in you're needs , you are categorised accordingly.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is SLI?

corner of hells · 19-02-2019 6:08pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Pardon my ignorance, but what is SLI?

Support to Live Independently.

touts · 19-02-2019 6:17pm

corner of hells wrote: »

70 or 23 ?

Either way it is at least 22 too many. The government should force these "charities" to merge into one and that would quickly shake the many scam artists loose.

corner of hells · 19-02-2019 6:22pm

touts wrote: »

Either way it is at least 22 too many. The government should force these "charities" to merge into one and that would quickly shake the many scam artists loose.

A megacharity.

James Brown · 19-02-2019 6:45pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Owen Keegan ‘jokingly’ said that the only way to solve the homeless crisis is to stop providing beds. Does he have a point? Are people so reliant on the nanny state that they’re unable or unwilling to help themselves?
It can be frustrating to read some cases and you wonder why some homeless, especially if they’re unemployed, cannot move to an area where accommodation is more readily available. After all, we hear of nurses and teachers etc., moving to other countries to source employment and lifestyles they desire.
There will always be genuine cases that need support, but I cannot help feeling that some are just taking the p***.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/fury-after-dublin-city-council-14012757

No. It's the conservative view that people can simply help themselves. There's an element take advantage but we can't tar everyone with the same brush. It's hard to help yourself beyond a certain point depending on your circumstances. It's the height of ignorance on his part.
But hey, another hate the poor thread, why not?

James Brown · 19-02-2019 6:46pm

touts wrote: »

Either way it is at least 22 too many. The government should force these "charities" to merge into one and that would quickly shake the many scam artists loose.

The developers and vulture funds are making more from these crises than any charity you care to write off.

Whirl_wolle · 19-02-2019 11:07pm

Owen Keegan is a c*nt who should probably consider taking up permanent residency in a coffin for coming out with something like that.

There will always be a certain demographic like druggies and down and outs who don't want to help themselves but you can't tar everyone with the same brush. There's a load of reasons why someone would face helessness.

I know a woman who has to be out from her rental house in a few weeks time. Something about the owner taking it back. It certainly wasn't down to being a bad tenant. She had a partner for a long time and they had a child together. They split and she finds herself parenting alone now. She's finding it impossible to find a place to rent because no one will take in a single mother. She works and she's confident she can pay rent.

We had a severe recession for a long time with many effects for many people. People losing jobs, stuck with celtic tiger mortgages. Young people coming out from school or college with poor job prospects. Facing zero hour contracts, recruitment freezes in some sectors or jobsbridge programs. These people are the next generation for a home. A home is out of reach for so many people.

Leo talked about representing those who get up early in the morning.
I'm one of these 1000's of people Leo was talking about. Getting up early in the morning and for fcuking what? To bring in a wage that doesn't pay a rent never mind a mortgage. If it wasn't for my mother, I'd be on the street.

touts · 19-02-2019 11:43pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The developers and vulture funds are making more from these crises than any charity you care to write off.

We should tackle them and there seems to be some moves in that direction. But to say we'll let charities off with scamming the public because the developers and culture funds are "making more" money is missing the point. At least we expect to be scammed by developers and vulture funds. But when some ego goes on TV and lectures us on how we're not giving his charity enough money when it turns out he and hundreds of his mates are dividing up 2/3rds of the money between them in "wages" and "pensions" is morally far worse than the developer who at least never hides the fact that they are only in it for the money.

hatrickpatrick · 20-02-2019 12:21am

Whirl_wolle wrote: »

Owen Keegan is a c*nt who should probably consider taking up permanent residency in a coffin for coming out with something like that.

There will always be a certain demographic like druggies and down and outs who don't want to help themselves but you can't tar everyone with the same brush. There's a load of reasons why someone would face helessness.

I know a woman who has to be out from her rental house in a few weeks time. Something about the owner taking it back. It certainly wasn't down to being a bad tenant. She had a partner for a long time and they had a child together. They split and she finds herself parenting alone now. She's finding it impossible to find a place to rent because no one will take in a single mother. She works and she's confident she can pay rent.

We had a severe recession for a long time with many effects for many people. People losing jobs, stuck with celtic tiger mortgages. Young people coming out from school or college with poor job prospects. Facing zero hour contracts, recruitment freezes in some sectors or jobsbridge programs. These people are the next generation for a home. A home is out of reach for so many people.

Leo talked about representing those who get up early in the morning.
I'm one of these 1000's of people Leo was talking about. Getting up early in the morning and for fcuking what? To bring in a wage that doesn't pay a rent never mind a mortgage. If it wasn't for my mother, I'd be on the street.

Move away from your entire social and support network if your lifelong hometown has become too expensive for you -- right wingers

Idbatterim · 20-02-2019 12:29am

“Leo talked about representing those who get up early in the morning.
I'm one of these 1000's of people Leo was talking about. Getting up early in the morning and for fcuking what? To bring in a wage that doesn't pay a rent never mind a mortgage. If it wasn't for my mother, I'd be on the street.” You’re doing it wrong. Get up earlier, like 2am,take on another job. Pay fifty percent marginal tax rate over the e35,000. You’ll be able to rent somewhere that isn’t a kip on your own for e1600+ for a one bed in Dublin. Live the dream!!!

Karl dieter was on rte talking unbelievable sense earlier,hard to believe rte would have him on! The rip off housing costs greatly benefits many , but it f*cks the rest of us and it’s gone way too far!

mariaalice · 20-02-2019 10:38am

Idbatterim wrote: »

“Leo talked about representing those who get up early in the morning.
I'm one of these 1000's of people Leo was talking about. Getting up early in the morning and for fcuking what? To bring in a wage that doesn't pay a rent never mind a mortgage. If it wasn't for my mother, I'd be on the street.” You’re doing it wrong. Get up earlier, like 2am,take on another job. Pay fifty percent marginal tax rate over the e35,000. You’ll be able to rent somewhere that isn’t a kip on your own for e1600+ for a one bed in Dublin. Live the dream!!!

Karl dieter was on rte talking unbelievable sense earlier,hard to believe rte would have him on! The rip off housing costs greatly benefits many , but it f*cks the rest of us and it’s gone way too far!

The homeless service is not there to help people like you, you need some sort of advocacy group that represents those who are working have no issues but are above the threshold limit for social housing but do not earn enough to get and sustain a mortgage. The government needs to bring back subsidies affordable housing with very tight regulation so it cannot be profited from and is viewed as a home, not an asset.

touts · 20-02-2019 11:23am

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Move away from your entire social and support network if your lifelong hometown has become too expensive for you -- right wingers

It's what people who actually work for a living have to do. Most of us live in different towns and cities or even countries from where we grew up. Dublin, Limerick, Cork London, Sydney etc are full of people from rural Ireland who have moved there for work. But apparently if you are on welfare then it is some sort of a human right to be housed on the same street as you grew up on. That is unsustainable. If the working class can be expected to make new social and support networks hundreds of miles from their hometowns then the welfare class should at least be expected to do the same especially if it is just a 15 minute Dublin Bus ride away.

hatrickpatrick · 20-02-2019 2:16pm

touts wrote: »

It's what people who actually work for a living have to do. Most of us live in different towns and cities or even countries from where we grew up. Dublin, Limerick, Cork London, Sydney etc are full of people from rural Ireland who have moved there for work. But apparently if you are on welfare then it is some sort of a human right to be housed on the same street as you grew up on. That is unsustainable. If the working class can be expected to make new social and support networks hundreds of miles from their hometowns then the welfare class should at least be expected to do the same especially if it is just a 15 minute Dublin Bus ride away.

It is, but it shouldn't have to be, and in a democratic society we should be able to choose as a matter of policy not to make it necessary anymore. By not treating housing as a passive commodity.

Amirani · 20-02-2019 2:39pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It is, but it shouldn't have to be, and in a democratic society we should be able to choose as a matter of policy not to make it necessary anymore. By not treating housing as a passive commodity.

When you have a couple of million people wanting to live in Dublin, some of those people won't be able to live within the canals, regardless of any matter of policy. It's just simple geometry, unless you propose densifying Dublin from among the least dense capitals in Europe to one of the most dense overnight.

Rodin · 20-02-2019 2:41pm

Those who work forced to commute from long distance to pay for those living off the states in the city centre.
Something wrong there.

touts · 20-02-2019 2:44pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It is, but it shouldn't have to be, and in a democratic society we should be able to choose as a matter of policy not to make it necessary anymore. By not treating housing as a passive commodity.

We can talk all day about what "should be". It's what idealistic fantasies like socialism are based on. But in the real world we can't afford to have the people who contribute the least to society (the welfare class) getting better treatment than the people who contribute the most (the working and middle classes). That utterly undermines the foundation of society where everyone contributes and gets rewarded for that contribution. Basic housing is a human right. Having a forever house, with a garden large enough for a trampoline and a couple of extra bedrooms "just in case", on the street you grew up on, and all free for life, isn't. If you want to fix it so people shouldn't have to move for a house then I would suggest the people who should get first priority in their preferred location are the people who contribute to society and not the other way around.

Does Owen Keegan have a point re homeless?

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