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How clean is electric car?

  • 19-02-2019 12:17pm
    #1
    mischascha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 65 ✭✭


    It annoys me when people say that electric cars are clean, and with that in mind they are charged way less for road tax and what not. Taxes supposed to be paid for real situations. Its shouldn't have been driven by media hype constantly trying to impose this way of thinking - ok you pay less because its a great idea that one day we wouldn't need to burn fossil fuels to produce electricity. In fact - electric cars are less efficient - as that 'clean' electricity is produced from fossil fuels mostly and in combination in losses via cables - its ridiculous that they are considered clean!


«13

Comments

  • #2
    markpb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,342 ✭✭✭markpb


    EVs definitely are cleaner, just cleaner in a very specific way. Diesel and petrol cars can only be powered by fossil fuels. EVs are powered by the electricity grid so that might be predominantly generated from fossil fuels today but it could change in a few years and the EV would take advantage of that. It's not entirely aspirational, last year about a third of all our electricity needs were met from renewable sources.

    ICE vehicles burn those fossil fuels in the middle of towns and cities, producing pollution in the very place where people live. Generating stations are typically located away from urban centres so the pollution affects fewer people.


  • #3
    Killed
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 113 ✭✭Killed


    Motor tax on an EV is not free, it's €120 a year.


  • #4
    mischascha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 65 ✭✭mischascha


    People have free will to move out from the polluted city. Yes but another 75% of electricity is produced by burning that stuff so not so clean, I didn't mention about production of those batteries and its short life span.... Why clean bioethanolE85 idea was dropped in Ireland? Hmm mostly its the same answer:>


  • #5
    Arthur Daley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,472 ✭✭✭Arthur Daley


    There could certainly be some counter balance to highlight that the UK for example gets nearly half it's electricity from Gas and Nuclear, so presenting electric as 'green' is not maybe being completely honest with the public. I'm sure there is a place for electric, but I immediately took an instinctive dislike to the way this agenda was suddenly pushed everywhere in 2016/2017, and most people have little insight into how slow the take up in electric actually is, and how wasteful it is for the environment to scrap perfectly serviceable old cars to replace them with shiny new metal.


  • #6
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    mischascha wrote: »
    People have free will to move out from the polluted city.

    This is a ridiculous statement. Your right to freely pollute a city is in no way greater than the right of people to live in an unpolluted city.

    Electric cars reduce pollution in towns and cities, improving the quality of life of the inhabitants there. Therefore they are cleaner and it makes sense to incentivise them.

    On an overall basis - ICE use all fossil fuels. EV will use a portion of fossil fuels within electricity generation, but also significant (and increasing) amounts of renewables. So on this metric they are cleaner too.

    I drive a petrol car personally, but trying to claim it's just as clean or cleaner is mind-bogglingly stupid.


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  • #7
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Some of electric cars greenery would depend on things like energy creation through braking.


  • #8
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,180 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    The only fully "clean" way to perambulate yourself is to run around the place bollock-naked like a caveman, assuming you don't pollute the little fishies by shitting all over the place like a bullock.

    Now that that's out of the way, more people living in cities is widely regarded as being a good thing, as it is much easier to deliver utilities, facilities and infrastructure to the vast majority when they live thus. Electric vehicles keep smog levels in cities down and centralize the power generation process such that, while fossil fuels are often used, it is at least considerably more efficient. You could argue that the process of manufacturing EVs is more environmentally harmful than that for conventional kit, but I'm not sufficiently familiar with the various data.


  • #9
    mischascha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 65 ✭✭mischascha


    My main problem is that there's a way to calculate amount of CO2 emissions - the main reason for taxation and all that.. a.and when one agrees that fossil fuel is main source for producing this fizzy power - it can be easily calculated - and truth will be revealed - that its all b...t


  • #10
    mischascha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 65 ✭✭mischascha


    rant about electricity as well;>


  • #11
    biko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,220 ✭✭✭✭biko


    As said above - electric cars runs on electricity that can be produced in a variety of ways - for instance by nuclear power or wind/wave/solar..

    Regular cars use fossil fuel directly so cannot switch.

    So electric cars might not be greener right now in Ireland, but the car itself is not to blame, it's the "fault" of the electricity provider.


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  • #12
    stimpson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,822 ✭✭✭stimpson


    I hate to refute a good rant with actual science, but here we go. Electric cars emit less CO2 over their lifetime than diesels even when powered with dirtiest electricity


  • #13
    mischascha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 65 ✭✭mischascha


    they can be switched, check mass produced bio-ethanol cars in Brasil and try not to be amazed, or petrol cars with LPG installation.


  • #14
    BIGT4464
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 191 ✭✭BIGT4464


    Got a Video worth watching on this subject.

    Are Electric Cars Worse For The Environment? Myth Busted

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhtiPefVzM

    1) Doesn't EV battery production cause a lot of emissions?
    2) Don't electric cars get their power from fossil fuels?
    3) Isn't lithium mining terrible for the environment?


  • #15
    Seweryn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,487 ✭✭✭Seweryn


    Not "clean" in one word.

    Manufacturing batteries for a single EV (just batteries) have similar impact on the environment to driving an internal combustion engine car for 3 - 7 years depending on battery type.

    And there is no such thing as renewable energy source - they only exist and will exist because of fossil fuels.


  • #16
    ELM327
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,217 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    My EV is not very clean.
    But I haven't washed it for a while.

    This post is more factual and relevant than the OP.


  • #17
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The fact remains that the ICE drivetrain is between 5 (petrol cold start in winter) and 30 (diesel driven at high load) pc and the electric one is over 70 pc efficient, power station to wheels.


    Burning gas on individual inefficient generators (car engine) is not an efficient way to do it, better to generate power to the grid with it.

    It's easy to calculate your actual CO2 emissions from wall/pump to wheels as both fuel and electricity have known CO2 emissions per unit. ESB publishes hourly values and for liquid fuel you can Google it and then figure out your individual numbers based on your driving.


  • #18
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    markpb wrote: »
    ICE vehicles burn those fossil fuels in the middle of towns and cities, producing pollution in the very place where people live. Generating stations are typically located away from urban centres so the pollution affects fewer people.

    So basically you are arguing that rural areas should be sacrificed so as urban dwellers can live more healthily? When I see giant industrial wind machines being constructed in Dublin Bay and the residents of Dalkey and Clontarf etc. happy to accept them, I might be more amenable to the argument re wind etc as renewable source.
    Arthur Daley wrote: »
    ...most people have little insight into how slow the take up in electric actually is, and how wasteful it is for the environment to scrap perfectly serviceable old cars to replace them with shiny new metal.

    This is a very valid argument. You get the distinct impression that the hype about electric cars is being generated by the desire to drive sales and churn the market.


  • #19
    Seweryn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,487 ✭✭✭Seweryn


    BarryD2 wrote: »
    You get the distinct impression that the hype about electric cars is being generated by the desire to drive sales and churn the market.
    Quite precisely, yeah... Which is obviously terrible for the environment, but it looks like we care more about the economy than the health of our planet.


  • #20
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Arthur Daley wrote: »
    ...and how wasteful it is for the environment to scrap perfectly serviceable old cars to replace them with shiny new metal.

    Thats not being proposed though.

    You drive your existing car as long as you like. Switch to EV when its time to switch.

    I dont see anyone forcing anyone out of their ICE cars and scrapping perfectly good cars ahead of their time.

    It will happen slowly and old ICE cars will just dwindle away over time.... no waste, as they would dwindle away anyway.


  • #21
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    One very suitable aspect of pure EVs in the Irish context is that not servicing them doesn't have much effect on them.

    I find the Irish registration system a real eco catastrophy. "It's only a '08" type of deal. There are many as good as new nice cars going down due to neglect. People think that a perfectly serviced car with 200k is a ticking time bomb, then don't check the oil for 2 years and then when the engine grenades, "told you so, was on its last legs". Every penny spent on regular maintenance is considered a rip off instead of an investment.


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  • #22
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    mischascha wrote: »
    It annoys me when people say that electric cars are clean, and with that in mind they are charged way less for road tax and what not. Taxes supposed to be paid for real situations. Its shouldn't have been driven by media hype constantly trying to impose this way of thinking - ok you pay less because its a great idea that one day we wouldn't need to burn fossil fuels to produce electricity. In fact - electric cars are less efficient - as that 'clean' electricity is produced from fossil fuels mostly and in combination in losses via cables - its ridiculous that they are considered clean!

    Any study or data to show that?

    tbh, you dont need a study to figure it out. The Irish grid data is publicly available and easy enough to calculate the CO2 emissions per km for an EV vs an ICE.


    It will clearly show you are talking rubbish but I get the impression its just a troll thread anyway.


    CO2 emissions isnt the only emissions issue either so dont just focus on that. Would you rather stand behind a diesel car or an EV and breathe its fumes?


    mischascha wrote: »
    My main problem is that there's a way to calculate amount of CO2 emissions...

    Exactly.... did you calculate it? Can you share your figures please and then we can have an informed debate rather than a rant/troll thread.


  • #23
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,597 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    Amirani wrote: »
    This is a ridiculous statement. Your right to freely pollute a city is in no way greater than the right of people to live in an unpolluted city.

    Electric cars reduce pollution in towns and cities, improving the quality of life of the inhabitants there. Therefore they are cleaner and it makes sense to incentivise them.

    On an overall basis - ICE use all fossil fuels. EV will use a portion of fossil fuels within electricity generation, but also significant (and increasing) amounts of renewables. So on this metric they are cleaner too.

    I drive a petrol car personally, but trying to claim it's just as clean or cleaner is mind-bogglingly stupid.

    Not quite true. Irish road diesel is a biodiesel blend, up to I think 7%, with future scope to increase to 10%. However most cars on the market cannot cope with 10% bio content, 7% is the limit.

    When we talk about clean cars, it's important to distinguish between what type of clean we are taking about, CO2 and PM. At first glance you might think that EVs are great on both fronts, but it's not that simple, and the benefits might not be as straight forward as you think.
    Looking at CO2 first, for one unit of forward motion, an EV produce between a half to a third less CO2. Great your say, obvious win. But if we are to move to reduce CO2 emissions, is it better to wait until existing cars reach end of life and phase in EV, or start scrapping good ICE cars in favour of EVs? Personally I don't think the environmental case is there for the latter tbh.

    As for urban pollution, while the tailpipe produces PM for an ICE so to does road dust, brakes and tyres. You will still have poor enough air quality in urban areas on a still warm day with EVs rattling around. Not as poor as with ICE granted, but not great.

    I don't think you can really say that cars in any form improve urban life. They create barriers and make private space out of public lands. The transition away from ICE should be making us look at our urban spaces to get rid of cars completely, not replacing bad with less worse.

    Just over final thing on air quality as an aside. The most polluted environments we tend to inhabit are indoors and we spend most of our time indoors too. A roast dinner produces indoor air quality several times worse than the streets of New Delhi, and a lovely timber open fire does the same. While we shouldn't lower our efforts to reduce outdoor urban emissions, if we don't change the way we live in other ways, the tangible gains to life expectancy may be inconsequential.


  • #24
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    Not quite true. Irish road diesel is a biodiesel blend, up to I think 7%, with future scope to increase to 10%. However most cars on the market cannot cope with 10% bio content, 7% is the limit.

    EV's are at 30% renewable in this country. Diesel will never get to that not to mind the continuing improvements in our grid so biodiesel is no argument for diesel.
    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    When we talk about clean cars, it's important to distinguish between what type of clean we are taking about, CO2 and PM. At first glance you might think that EVs are great on both fronts, but it's not that simple, and the benefits might not be as straight forward as you think.
    Looking at CO2 first, for one unit of forward motion, an EV produce between a half to a third less CO2. Great your say, obvious win. But if we are to move to reduce CO2 emissions, is it better to wait until existing cars reach end of life and phase in EV, or start scrapping good ICE cars in favour of EVs? Personally I don't think the environmental case is there for the latter tbh.

    But who is advocating or encouraging that?
    EV's are at <1% right now. There wont be a mass scrapping of perfectly good ICE cars. That would be ridiculous.

    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    As for urban pollution, while the tailpipe produces PM for an ICE so to does road dust, brakes and tyres. You will still have poor enough air quality in urban areas on a still warm day with EVs rattling around. Not as poor as with ICE granted, but not great.

    I don't think you can really say that cars in any form improve urban life. They create barriers and make private space out of public lands. The transition away from ICE should be making us look at our urban spaces to get rid of cars completely, not replacing bad with less worse.

    I agree with your general points. Not sure the brakes and tyre dust add up to that much but maybe they do.

    The reality is we still need Cars. Thats not going to change any time soon. Using a utopian ideal of perfect public transport to everywhere in the country just wont happen. We cant even build a hospital not to mind that utopian ideal.

    So, maybe the least worse option is a good direction to go in?


  • #25
    slave1
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 19,192 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    I think the point is cleaner


  • #26
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,597 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    KCross wrote: »
    EV's are at 30% renewable in this country. Diesel will never get to that not to mind the continuing improvements in our grid so biodiesel is no argument for diesel.



    But who is advocating or encouraging that?
    EV's are at <1% right now. There wont be a mass scrapping of perfectly good ICE cars. That would be ridiculous.




    I agree with your general points. Not sure the brakes and tyre dust add up to that much but maybe they do.

    The reality is we still need Cars. Thats not going to change any time soon. Using a utopian ideal of perfect public transport to everywhere in the country just wont happen. We cant even build a hospital not to mind that utopian ideal.

    So, maybe the least worse option is a good direction to go in?
    That's not the point in was making. I wasn't arguing biodiesel was the way forward, but pointing out a factual inaccuracy in the post I quoted, that diesel cars (in Ireland at least) are not 100% fossil fueled.


    While no one might be advocating mass scrappage in favour of EVs, manufacturers aided and abetted by policy makers may lead to that happening. While I don't have the numbers, I would bet my house that there are fewer pre 2008 cars still on Irish roads today than one might expect had the government not changed policy. Manufacturers are guilty of creating this waste too, with their promotional scrappage schemes, by insisting the cars that participate must have a valid NCT. My old car (only sold because it didn't fit our needs anymore) was bought by a couple who wanted it to qualify for some promotion. The same BS will happen again, but it's really just consumerism underneath a thin green veneer. Would that be cleaner? I wouldn't think so.

    A transition without market distorting incentives is the way forward. The better product will win the day anyway.


  • #27
    grogi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    mischascha wrote: »
    they can be switched, check mass produced bio-ethanol cars in Brasil and try not to be amazed, or petrol cars with LPG installation.

    And where do we get LPG from?! Bio-fuels are one of the biggest reason for cutting down forest and increased prices of food.


  • #28
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,180 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    grogi wrote: »
    And where do we get LPG from?! Bio-fuels are one of the biggest reason for cutting down forest and increased prices of food.

    Yes. Meanwhile, we're using oil to make packaging, 90% of which is unnecessary, for useless consumer crap 90% of which is unnecessary, and chucking it into the sea just in case we don't fuck that up too. Jesus Wept. :pac:


  • #29
    grogi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    jimgoose wrote: »
    Yes. Meanwhile, we're using oil to make packaging, 90% of which is unnecessary, for useless consumer crap 90% of which is unnecessary, and chucking it into the sea just in case we don't fuck that up too. Jesus Wept. :pac:

    90% of car travel is probably unnecessary as well. That's not the point.


  • #30
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    My car is clean

    I just got a full valet done on it....how dare you say it isn't


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  • #31
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    I think the biofuel content is now going to 11%. BTW you need to till land and spread fertiliser (oil) to grow the biofuel.

    Samih's ratio is right, ICE car is an open fire, compared to an EV which is a stove.
    If you're building a house nowadays which would you install, open fireplace or stove? BTW the regs won't allow you have the open fire place. Eventually the same will apply to cars.
    Cars will go almost totally EV. It's just a question of time. It's then up to the Govn't to encourage a very high % of renewable energy on the grid.


  • #32
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Water John wrote: »
    I think the biofuel content is now going to 11%.

    The overall mix is going to 10% but what you get at the pumps will still be 7%(B7) or less as the current crop of cars cant handle any more than that.

    There was a misleading thread on it a short while back...
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108671639&postcount=170


  • #33
    _Brian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,618 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    mischascha wrote: »
    It annoys me when people say that electric cars are clean, and with that in mind they are charged way less for road tax and what not. Taxes supposed to be paid for real situations. Its shouldn't have been driven by media hype constantly trying to impose this way of thinking - ok you pay less because its a great idea that one day we wouldn't need to burn fossil fuels to produce electricity. In fact - electric cars are less efficient - as that 'clean' electricity is produced from fossil fuels mostly and in combination in losses via cables - its ridiculous that they are considered clean!

    https://www.facebook.com/100006091632102/posts/2284786235067742?sfns=mo


  • #34
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,397 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Water John wrote: »
    I think the biofuel content is now going to 11%. BTW you need to till land and spread fertiliser (oil) to grow the biofuel.

    Samih's ratio is right, ICE car is an open fire, compared to an EV which is a stove.
    If you're building a house nowadays which would you install, open fireplace or stove? BTW the regs won't allow you have the open fire place. Eventually the same will apply to cars.
    Cars will go almost totally EV. It's just a question of time. It's then up to the Govn't to encourage a very high % of renewable energy on the grid.

    You can still have an open fire as long as you compensate for it elsewhere in the house through insulation/solar panels/whatever as far as I know. This has no bearing on your analogy of course :pac:


  • #35
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,717 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    mischascha wrote: »
    It annoys me when people say that electric cars are clean, and with that in mind they are charged way less for road tax

    Our motor tax is based on emissions. So an EV that has zero emissions should also pay zero motor tax. That annoys me ;)

    Of course electric cars are a lot cleaner than petrol / diesel cars. The air quality in Dublin is horrific because of the stinking diesels

    My ads on adverts.ie

    https://www.adverts.ie/member/5856/ads



  • #36
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,180 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    grogi wrote: »
    90% of car travel is probably unnecessary as well. That's not the point.

    I should say it rather is sort of the point, that what is often touted as part of the solution to the dirty ICE problem is itself rather problematic and damaging in at least a couple of ways.


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  • #37
    mischascha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 65 ✭✭mischascha


    KCross wrote: »
    Any study or data to show that?

    tbh, you dont need a study to figure it out. The Irish grid data is publicly available and easy enough to calculate the CO2 emissions per km for an EV vs an ICE.


    It will clearly show you are talking rubbish but I get the impression its just a troll thread anyway.


    CO2 emissions isnt the only emissions issue either so dont just focus on that. Would you rather stand behind a diesel car or an EV and breathe its fumes? Can you go to Thermal power station and breath some chimney fumes?:> That's exactly what I'm talking about saying we are narrow minded and media driven...
    At the moment we are scavenging for oil and other stuff not in the ground like pests





    Exactly.... did you calculate it? Can you share your figures please and then we can have an informed debate rather than a rant/troll thread.
    Ive read about it but not in English


  • #38
    zilog_jones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,638 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    It's much more effective to treat emissions at large scale production, e.g. a power plant, rather than many individual ICE cars. Also, the majority of fossil fuels used for power generation in Ireland is natural gas, which is a hell of a lot cleaner than diesel. Coal and peat power plants are on the way out and we have reduced our reliance on them substantially in the past 30 years.


  • #39
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    All this thread reminds me of why Ireland is the most backward country in the whole of Europe and probably in top 5 in the World in terms of climate change


  • #40
    mischascha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 65 ✭✭mischascha


    jimgoose wrote: »
    The only fully "clean" way to perambulate yourself is to run around the place bollock-naked like a caveman, assuming you don't pollute the little fishies by shitting all over the place like a bullock.

    Now that that's out of the way, more people living in cities is widely regarded as being a good thing, as it is much easier to deliver utilities, facilities and infrastructure to the vast majority when they live thus. Electric vehicles keep smog levels in cities down and centralize the power generation process such that, while fossil fuels are often used, it is at least considerably more efficient. You could argue that the process of manufacturing EVs is more environmentally harmful than that for conventional kit, but I'm not sufficiently familiar with the various data.
    You won't pollute fishies by shi..n on them, but spilling oil tank, or plastic waste could harm them.


  • #41
    mischascha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 65 ✭✭mischascha


    unkel wrote: »
    Our motor tax is based on emissions. So an EV that has zero emissions should also pay zero motor tax. That annoys me ;)

    Of course electric cars are a lot cleaner than petrol / diesel cars. The air quality in Dublin is horrific because of the stinking diesels
    Is it horrific? I disagree.


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  • #42
    The Enbalmer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭The Enbalmer


    unkel wrote: »
    . The air quality in Dublin is horrific because of the stinking diesels

    No it isn't.

    Dublin isn't Bangkok..we're at best a couple of miles from the sea and it's winds,we don't sit in a depression where pollution can build up and we don't experience daytime temperatures of +30c every day.

    The EV fraternity have an almost cult-like belief in electric cars as being the saviour of the earth and completely ignore their lack of versatilityfor example..what happens if there's a power failure for a day or two?),the sheer hassle of having to charge them and their enormous cost relative to ICE engines.

    I think it's mostly because they're so expensive people are resorting to telling fibs like the above to justify what amounts to buying into an expensive fad.


  • #43
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,397 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    mischascha wrote: »
    Is it horrific? I disagree.

    Have you got the metrics to show that? I can't say I notice it when I'm there or anything myself but it should be something that's measurable at least.


  • #44
    mischascha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 65 ✭✭mischascha


    markpb wrote: »
    EVs definitely are cleaner, just cleaner in a very specific way. Diesel and petrol cars can only be powered by fossil fuels. EVs are powered by the electricity grid so that might be predominantly generated from fossil fuels today but it could change in a few years and the EV would take advantage of that. It's not entirely aspirational, last year about a third of all our electricity needs were met from renewable sources.

    ICE vehicles burn those fossil fuels in the middle of towns and cities, producing pollution in the very place where people live. Generating stations are typically located away from urban centres so the pollution affects fewer people.

    There are mass produced switchable(petrol/LPG, petrol/ethanol, petrol/carrots(only messing:>)) cars in many countries around the world


  • #45
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    mischascha wrote: »
    Ive read about it but not in English

    Do some more research on the Irish grid then and it should change your opinion.

    All the data you need to calculate it is here:
    http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com

    mischascha wrote: »
    Can you go to Thermal power station and breath some chimney fumes?:> That's exactly what I'm talking about saying we are narrow minded and media driven...

    So, you equate the emissions from a highly regulated and controlled power station to that of a dieselgate car? You seriously think those two things are comparable?

    Forget about the media. Nearly all media around EV's is negative anyway. Do your own research on reliable data and not media reports.


  • #46
    The Enbalmer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭The Enbalmer


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    All this thread reminds me of why Ireland is the most backward country in the whole of Europe and probably in top 5 in the World in terms of climate change

    And in terms of "climate change" exactly what are we doing so wrongly to contribute to it?


  • #47
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,397 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    The Enbalmer wrote: »
    No it isn't.

    Dublin isn't Bangkok..we're at best a couple of miles from the sea and it's winds,we don't sit in a depression where pollution can build up and we don't experience daytime temperatures of +30c every day.

    The EV fraternity have an almost cult-like belief in electric cars as being the saviour of the earth and completely ignore their lack of versatilityfor example..what happens if there's a power failure for a day or two?),the sheer hassle of having to charge them and their enormous cost relative to ICE engines.

    I think it's mostly because they're so expensive people are resorting to telling fibs like the above to justify what amounts to buying into an expensive fad.

    Not sure about that, I wouldn't have been able to afford a brand new car if I didn't buy an electric. Environment wasn't my main motivation by a long shot either, I just find the technology really interesting and I love how it feels to drive compared to my old banger.


  • #48
    stimpson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,822 ✭✭✭stimpson


    mischascha wrote: »
    There are mass produced switchable(petrol/LPG, petrol/ethanol, petrol/carrots(only messing:>)) cars in many countries around the world

    LPG is produced almost exclusively by refining fossil fuels and emits 81% of the CO2 per kWh produced by oil. So a bit cleaner, but not much.


  • #49
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    Not sure about that, I wouldn't have been able to afford a brand new car if I didn't buy an electric. Environment wasn't my main motivation by a long shot either, I just find the technology really interesting and I love how it feels to drive compared to my old banger.

    That's a good point. Alot of the EV haters that jump into these debates think we are all tree huggers.

    EV's have more going for them other than environmental factors. Their own negativity and wish to stick with the status quo doesnt allow them to look beyond what they already know. Change is difficult! :)


  • #50
    ED E
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,169 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    slave1 wrote: »
    I think the point is cleaner

    The point is its cleaner outside our homes and schools. Less kids retarded by diesel fumes the better.


  • #51
    The Enbalmer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭The Enbalmer


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    Not sure about that, I wouldn't have been able to afford a brand new car if I didn't buy an electric. Environment wasn't my main motivation by a long shot either, I just find the technology really interesting and I love how it feels to drive compared to my old banger.

    Man I'd never buy a brand new car even if I could afford one..they start losing value the minute you drive them off the forecourt.

    I got a 06 reg Saab for 1200 quid two years ago and havnt had a peep of trouble out of it. I can travel the length and breath of the country in it using the petrol station system and when it eventually gives up the ghost i'll buy another car for the same money.

    My in-laws spent 9k on a secondhand Leaf and they're always moaning that chargers are taken by people and they end up hanging round for 30minutes waiting to use the charger.
    They have a place in cavan but wont drive there in case the car runs out of charge somewhere.
    What's the point?

    Then there's upside,they claim is the cost of electricity and how much they save on fuel relative to my car...the fact is I can get 7 cars that last 2+ years each for the money they spent on that thing..the cost of fuel is irrelevant.

    I have my own concerns about the concept of everybody driving around in a giant battery too. Can they be extinguished normally if they catch fire?

    Remember petrol can be extinguished rapidly by depriving it of oxygen..how do firefighters extinguish an electrical fire that doesn't require oxygen?

    Do EVs have to be scrapped completely in the event of a crash? Will there not be a hugely increased burden of toxic batteries in waste facilities and a complete lack of ability to recycle these vehicles when their life is up?


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