Proposals to reform Property Tax Thread

cornet wrote: »

We were told to expect improved local services. In rural Ireland this is certainly not the case. I see little or no transparency in how this tax is collected or spent.

The Household Charge- and the Local Property tax- were never capable of supporting local services in rural Ireland- massive subvention from Dublin payers of this tax were (and continue to be) necessary. The cost of providing some services is vastly inflated in a non-urban area- and then the lower population density means means there are simply fewer people to pay for the service (hence the aforementioned library closures in Sligo).

Yes- accountability is necessary- certainly it is- but so to must be some measure of acceptance that people are being directly subsidised by taxpayers in Dublin- who akin to rural dwellers- should demand accountability for the taxes they pay.

If local property tax is to fund services in the local authority areas for which it is functionally collected- this infers a massive fall in expenditure in all but 9 local authority areas- which correspond with our major urban areas and their commuter feeder areas.

This is partially acknowledged by the Minister- where he is saying there is an inequity in basing the LPT purely on the raw value of residential property units- as a residential property unit in rural Galway could have vast non-financial benefit to its residents- that simply doesn't exist for someone living in a two bed high density apartment in a dodgy area of Dublin. There has to be some cognisance of the non-financial value of property- which would include a flatrate site value- and a lifestyle value (accorded by the size of the property)- alongside the value. So- the absolute value of a property might represent say 1/3 of the LPT owed, the site tax another third, and the utility or amenity value (represented by the square footage of the property)- the final third. In addition- those who live in leasehold property which incur management charges- would be allowed offset their LPT obligations towards their management charges...........

If something like this was implemented- which would account for some of the higher quality of living someone in a nice bungalow in rural Ireland- over and above the crap no-garden existence a family living in a 2-3 bed highrise unit in Lucan (or where-ever) might have- you would have a much higher LPT in rural Ireland- which would pay a much higher proportion of the actual cost of supplying amenities and services in the functional area- and a much lower LPT in (example used- Lucan) representing the fact that its lots cheaper to provide the same services, facilities and amenities in Lucan (and the irrefutable fact that the residents there have a much crapper existence than do the people living in Connemara (or where-ever)).

The simple fact of the matter is- the headline 'value' of a property- is not just financial in nature- and someone living a pitiful existence in a crap apartment in commuterville- could have a lovely well spec'ed dwelling with plenty of room- in a more rural dwelling. Should you punish the fool who kills themselves to work in Dublin- and lives in inappropriate accommodation (because its all they can afford)- versus someone who makes a conscious decision not to partake in the ratrace- and lives in a nice property in Connemara- that doesn't cost nearly as much as the crap apartment in Lucan- but is so much better in every possible manner?

Its all well and good divy'ing out income tax nationally- but a person should see the benefit of their LPT in their locality- it is called the 'Local' Property tax after all. The current system- actively punishes Dublin residents- by sending a large chunk of their LPT to god only knows where- all the while the residents of Ballymote (random nice little town in Sligo picked)- have no idea where their LPT is going- or what the actual cost of supplying the facilities, amenities and services they enjoy- actually is- or indeed, just who is paying for it............

The bigger issue- in common with the fool in Lucan- and the skeptic in Ballymote- is a complete and utter lack of accountability. If the local authorities (Sligo Co. Co. and SDCC respectively)- were run as going concerns- the CRO would have both delisted within days and their directors in court on a string of malfeasance suits- with a reasonable expectation the lot of them would be proscribed (banned from being directors for a set period of time- as punishment for failing their shareholders- in this instance- everyone who pays their LPT).

Yet- no-one is uttering a peep.

thereality wrote: »

IMO we need to hike LPT. It could be a cost effective, although controversial way of addressing the housing crisis. Shane Ross was talking about the poor asset rich, income poor OAPs who are struggling to pay the LPT....

The Old Age Pensioners- don't have mortgages, young children- or massive outgoings that young families have. The idea that just because you're younger you'll have gotten pay rises- doesn't cut mustard. The average payrises IBEC are suggesting for 2018 is 1.9% and they are bitching about it. In the public sector- which accounts for over 400,000 in the workforce- the paycuts from the downturn- have simply been formalised as higher pension contributions- so while headline salaries might be increasing- net salaries are not.

People do not have the money to pay yet more taxes- it might sound like a great idea for some sort of socialist equalisation in society- however, if the money isn't there to begin with- its quite simply not there.

It suits Shane Ross to pay platitudes to the poor OAPs- because they are the people who will actually go out and vote- the workers who are getting screwed every which way- don't have the time- that the OAPs have- to vote..........

If you add impending interest rate increases into the equation (fixed rate products from all the lenders on the Irish market are already increasing- variable rates will do too, before long)- you'll rapidly see just who the cash poor segment of society are.

The Irish- are going to be almost uniquely- crucified by increasing interest rates- and the ECB has already put the brakes on quantitative easing- it halved in volume on the 1st of January.

Shane Ross is trying to appeal to OAPs in the knowledge it'll make them think of him when the election comes round- not because there is any particular meat in the argument he is expounding.

thereality wrote: »

IMO the LPT should be hiked up, that an OAP sitting in a massive empty house is nudged to downsize. I know there is the whole 'well, they should be forced to move from their area'. Why doesn't the same apply to a family forced to commute from Kildare or Cavan, as they were priced from the area they were raised in as a people are living in a massive, empty homes? How many large family homes in well serviced mature areas with semi-empty schools could come on the market within a few years, if the likes of Mary sitting in her empty €1m house in Clontarf had to pay a proper LPT? .

Playing devils advocate here. The OAP can already defer their LPT (and their Fair Deal payment etc). In addition- and despite much debate in recent years- we do not have the sheltered housing, retirement villages etc- which most other countries with aging populations are developing. Its all well or good telling the OAPs to downsize- but downsize to where and what? We are already discriminating in favour of FTBs for any new builds coming on stream. If we expand this discrimination- all its going to do- is increment prices by a commensurate amount.

With respect of the families commuting from Kildare (or Cavan or where-ever)- hell, getting to Lucan from Dublin city centre can take over 2 hours most evenings- I'd classify abnormal commutes- as 'strange and unusual punishments'. If this was any other country- you'd be paid a premium to work in our cities- in recognition of the fact that its so damn difficult to get in and out of our cities. Hell- Dublin City Council have now narrowed the quays to a single lane for traffic- who in their right mind thinks that is a good idea? If we had a good public transport system- there might be some argument to support all of this- but we don't.

thereality wrote: »

LPT should only go to the local authority that it is raised in. Are rural local authorities underfunded? Likely. But giving a McMansion on the end of a massive private driveway aka a regional road a notional LPT bill is not helping. We expect Dubliners living in modest homes in a city where it is quite efficient and cheap to provide services to pay a massive LPT bill. Let we let people live in massive homes that are a drain on society and let them away with a modest LPT bill. It makes zero sense.

Agree 100% with you.
In other countries- once you leave the defined urban area- you are expected to pay a portion of the cost of any new infrastructure in the area- and a set portion of the maintenance cost of the infrastructure (updated as the population density changes etc).
If you want to live in a mansion in the middle of nowhere- certainly you should be expected to pay an enhanced reasonable contribution towards provision of any facilities, amenities and services in the area. It is not fair that John and Siobhan living in an apartment in Maynooth- are supporting someone living in a mansion in the back end of Connemara.

There is a distinct lack of accountability going on here- and when people are being asked to hand over large lumps of money- the very least they deserve is a report detailing the amount of money collected, and how it is being expended- on an annual basis- in the form of an annual report- akin to an annual report that any private company is legally obligated to publish, within 6 months of the end of a financial year- alongside the budget for the coming year. Its simple accountability- and there is no reason that local authorities should be treated any differently from any private company- which includes sanctions on county managers etc- who do not perform in an acceptable manner.

thereality wrote: »

The LPT around the Luas extension should have been revised when it opened to take into account the appreciation in house prices there. In the likes of NYC, infastructure is justified as property values will increase, therefore the tax is revised and hiked. Brooklyn is planning on building a new tramline and a lot of it will be paid for the appreciation in property taxes. Dublin should get more infastructure projects if LPT can be used to fund part of it.

Once you start to try and delineate a zone around the Luas, or the DART, you'll have people point at the likes of the motorway between X and Y which isn't tolled, or the nonsensical dual carriageway between Naas and Newbridge- or the underused roads that were used as a bribe to the Healy Rae clan down in Kerry- or some other infrastructure somewhere else. Its hard to point at the Luas- and ignore everything else- and then is it within 500m of the Luas- or what criteria do you use- and there are going to be exceptions- and there will be people making deputations to their local TDs and councillors- and parish politics is going to rise to the fore..........

Parochial politics- is the worst thing that ever happened to this country- our political system is creaking at the seams because of it- and we have so many damn layers of bureaucracy replicating functions- and no-one responsible for anything. Its nutty. Its staggering that we manage to achieve anything- when you have TDs asking stupid questions in the Dáil- just so they can show a report to a constituent- that they did ask a question in the Dáil- and doubtless there is some civil servant somewhere composing responses to stupid questions- who knows damn well, their time would be far better spent doing something worthwhile.

We do pay an artificially low property tax in Ireland- but we pay artificially high tax rates which kick in at artificially low levels. Our higher rate of tax kicks in at 34k- that's remarkable for an advanced economy. This comes up time and time again- esp. from our multinationals based here- who highlight it as a factor- it is incredibly difficult for them to offer a financial incentive to employees- when marginal tax rates- including USC and PRSI- is now 52% at the higher rate- on income over 34k...........

If you hike LPT- you have to give folk some sort of a break somewhere else- and then you the nonsensical manner in which the local authorities pay the LPT for social welfare recipients- including those who live in high demand areas...........

Hike LPT by all means- but there is a commensurate cost associated with doing this- which is you'll have to cut tax in other areas- and that's simply something Revenue can't afford to do.

We're balancing the books at the moment- but we're spending 16 billion a year on the HSE- and just to standstill, cognisant of population demographics- this will increase to 25 billion within 5 years.

The finances of this country are shot- we have a temporary lull- by virtue of our low unemployment rate- but we are projected to double our number of retirees by 2026- which will put significant pressure on our dependency ratios.
Someone has to pay for all of this- and the productively employed of this country- are at breaking point.

One way or the other- if there is not reform of the current manner in which Property Tax is calculated- its quite likely that most people's LPT could double come the 31st of October.

Its not kite-flying to try to reform the LPT- its a necessity- it has to happen.

We already booted the re-appraisal down the road- unfortunately 'down the road' has a habit of creeping up on you.

If we leave things as they are- we have a revaluation due for all property- which will most probably boot every single property in the country up at least two categories (with the ironic exception of the more expensive houses- some of which have actually fallen in value).

The current system- is not fair, obfusciates where LPT actually goes, suffers from a lack of accountability- and in the case of all the local authorities who are the recipients of funds paid by Dublin/Kildare/Meath/Wicklow LPT payers- there is zero gratitude- or even recognition of the fact.

If its a LOCAL Property Tax- spend the money in the areas in which its collected.
If its not a LOCAL property tax- change the name of the tax- and stop trying to take the piss out of tax payers.