Is the narcissism of RTE employees getting out of hand?

jimmycrackcorm · 28-11-2017 6:34pm

Kivaro wrote:

And we should find a way to thank them on election day. Sending them an appreciative email (click on name) may help them gauge our views on the matter:

Of say they would be happy to not fund RTE so that there is no prime time investigates that has exposed quite a lot of scandals.

Silentcorner · 28-11-2017 6:39pm

topper75 wrote: »

Nepotism I know of (there must be more):

Gerry/Lottie Ryan
Sean/Eileen Dunne
Mary/Lucy Kennedy

The absolute worst I've seen was on Primetime.

A few years ago, this Dublin Councillor kept popping up on Primetime chatting about different National issues, I saw him at least half a dozen times...I thought it was very odd that a lowly Councillor was getting this kind of priceless national exposure....

The councillor was Jim O'Callaghan, now front bench spokesman for FF....brother of Miriam....

And nobody in any media outlet batted an eyelid.....we have no standards in media...

Wanderer2010 · 28-11-2017 6:44pm

LewisR wrote: »

RTÉ as a whole is summed up by one person. Lottie Ryan. Talentless and gormless. Stealing a wage from the genuinely talented people looking to break into TV/radio.

I'd do 6 months in Mountjoy before I'd hand over money for the license fee.

Dont forget Blathnaid Treacy- she was the baby in Glenroe. Which apparently grants you full immunity from unemployment forever. Was she affected by the closure of TwoTube? In her hole. Shes sorted for life working for RTE while all her co stars were thrown on the scrapheap.

donegaLroad · 28-11-2017 6:44pm

I haven't had a tv since 2003, I only watch RTE in the pub for an international, soccer or rugby. Pat Rabitte was on our local radio station today, trying to defend the proposed increase to the TV license charge.. I don't know when they plan to implement it, but its on the cards.

In fairness to the program host, he put Pat Rabitte on the spot a couple of times with points made by callers to the program... he proceeded to list out the programs that were on today on RTE1 television.

9am - Casualty

9:50 - The Doctors

10:45 - Dr Phil

11:40 - Shortland Street

12:10 - Doctors

12:45 - Telly Bingo

13:00 - News

13:30 - Neighbours

13:55 - Eastenders

Eastenders is on again at 7:30 followed by Fair City followed by Desperate Housewives

One caller to the program said that there are so many repeats on RTE that they felt like photocopying their TV license and sending it in as payment.

seachto7 · 28-11-2017 6:55pm

topper75 wrote: »

Nepotism I know of (there must be more):

Gerry/Lottie Ryan
Sean/Eileen Dunne
Mary/Lucy Kennedy

You sure Maru Kennedy is related to Lucy?

jippo nolan · 28-11-2017 7:25pm

myshirt wrote: »

This Donal Skehan guy, who the f#ck is he?

For a long time before he was a celebrity chef, he was a man who would try his hand at anything and who RTE would readily give the platform.

Why?

Allegedly, he has relations working/employed There!

yosser hughes · 28-11-2017 7:49pm

topper75 wrote: »

Nepotism I know of (there must be more):

Gerry/Lottie Ryan
Sean/Eileen Dunne
Mary/Lucy Kennedy

I don't think those two Kennedys are related.
There are plenty of other examples though.
Niall Cogley, Samantha McCaughren are two I can think off at the top of my head.
There are loads more in background roles;producers,managers etc.
Six figure salaries are not restricted to presenters.
Although Nicky Byrne's €250,000 a year rankles.
Donal Skehan's relentless promotion is puzzling.

Purple Mountain · 28-11-2017 7:51pm

Hello Secret Producer Dude!!

Kivaro · 28-11-2017 8:02pm

Silentcorner wrote: »

And nobody in any media outlet batted an eyelid.....we have no standards in media...

There is major backscratching going on between RTE and the Irish political system.

RTE should be abolished. I'd say 90% of the population would agree.
I would support TG4 and other RTE programs that I like via a subscription service.

28-11-2017 8:39pm

Nothing against the guy but it seems strange that Nicky Byrne got a gig paying 200k a year at (unprofitable and more-unpopular-than-they-would-have-you-believe) 2fm, having not worked in radio before (as far as i know?). What a lifeline he was given there seeing as a huge proportion of former boyband members etc. sink into a unenviable "has-been" position when the band finishes or ends up with no purpose/status in life etc - instead he has a career in the media layed out for him on 4 grand a week, even for him that's a sweet deal.

Mena Mitty · 28-11-2017 10:09pm

yosser hughes wrote: »

I don't think those two Kennedys are related.
There are plenty of other examples though.
Niall Cogley, Samantha McCaughren are two I can think off at the top of my head.
There are loads more in background roles;producers,managers etc.
Six figure salaries are not restricted to presenters.
Although Nicky Byrne's €250,000 a year rankles.
Donal Skehan's relentless promotion is puzzling.

Did you mean Mick Dunne Sports commentater from many years ago.

WHIP IT! · 29-11-2017 7:48am

The "no standard media" have just this week brought down a corrupt tanaiste and they are far from finished yet.
Oh, that story, by the way was broke last week by Katie Hannon... of RTE

razorblunt · 29-11-2017 7:52am

Great call on Lottie Ryan, she'll have a job for life there too.

There was a poster before that highlighted how bad things were, he/she was saying that their parents had saved up for a trip of a lifetime for one of their 60ths barely scraping together the cost. Lo and behold Joe Duffy strolls on into 1st Class filming the "Who do you think are?" show. Some of these shows are often just excuses to get the folk out of Montrose for a while.

jmayo · 29-11-2017 4:29pm

donegaLroad wrote: »

...
In fairness to the program host, he put Pat Rabitte on the spot a couple of times with points made by callers to the program... he proceeded to list out the programs that were on today on RTE1 television.

9am - Casualty

9:50 - The Doctors

10:45 - Dr Phil

11:40 - Shortland Street

12:10 - Doctors

There's more doctors on RTE than there are in the local hospital.

I suppose people can see makey up ones on the TV rather than some of the makey up ones that have worked in the HSE for real. :rolleyes:

donegaLroad wrote: »

One caller to the program said that there are so many repeats on RTE that they felt like photocopying their TV license and sending it in as payment.

Brilliant.

Mena Mitty wrote: »

Did you mean Mick Dunne Sports commentater from many years ago.

Yep it's Mick Dunne of the sports department and Eileen of the newsroom.

Some others are ...
Phillip Boucher Hayes nephew of Myles Dungan
Ryan Tubridy and David McSavage, grandsons of former DG Todd Andrews
Whoever thought dave mcsavage was worth a tv program :eek:

The late Jonathan Philbin Bowman, son of John Bowman.
Richard Curran is brother of former DG Noel Curran.
Mirriam's hubbie Steve Carson was director of programming in RTE until move to BBC NI.
Her ex was Tom McGurk of the rugby fame.

ryan tubridy's grandfather Todd Andrews was a fianna fail TD and RTE Director General.
tubridy's brother ran for election, whilst he had been in ogra fianna fail as a young fellow and student.

Two of his uncles were Andrews TDs and two of his first cousings were also fianna fail TDs.
So it was a joke to see him supposedly objectively interview fine gael TDs and leader while at the same time give soft soap interviews to fianna fail leaders and TDs.

He went to school with craig doyle and "royal" nugent.

jmayo · 29-11-2017 4:33pm

WHIP IT! wrote: »

The "no standard media" have just this week brought down a corrupt tanaiste and they are far from finished yet.
Oh, that story, by the way was broke last week by Katie Hannon... of RTE

They didn't do much about a dodgy ex minister of finance and taoiseach where they gave him a soft soap interview on the news to give the poor mouth.
They didn't do much about cj haughey, ray burke, etc, etc, etc.

They only inadvertently did something about padraig flynn because he hung himself on national tv.

For Forks Sake · 29-11-2017 5:15pm

jmayo wrote: »

The late Jonathan Philbin Bowman, son of John Bowman.
.

Fairly sure Abie Philbin Bowman (younger brother of Jonathan) is hanging around the place as well.

by8auj6csd3ioq · 30-11-2017 10:28pm

Doltanian wrote: »

Kathryn Thomas who the hell does she think she is? She's not even remotely good looking. Not many of the high profile RTE names would survive if it was Privatised and they had to earn their keep.

pain in the arse

by8auj6csd3ioq · 30-11-2017 10:29pm

Vladimir Poontang wrote: »

Marty Whelan is a ****ing legend though.

in his own lunchtime

Ipso · 30-11-2017 10:35pm

jmayo wrote: »

There's more doctors on RTE than there are in the local hospital.

I suppose people can see makey up ones on the TV rather than some of the makey up ones that have worked in the HSE for real. :rolleyes:

Brilliant.

Yep it's Mick Dunne of the sports department and Eileen of the newsroom.

Some others are ...
Phillip Boucher Hayes nephew of Myles Dungan
Ryan Tubridy and David McSavage, grandsons of former DG Todd Andrews
Whoever thought dave mcsavage was worth a tv program :eek:

The late Jonathan Philbin Bowman, son of John Bowman.
Richard Curran is brother of former DG Noel Curran.
Mirriam's hubbie Steve Carson was director of programming in RTE until move to BBC NI.
Her ex was Tom McGurk of the rugby fame.

ryan tubridy's grandfather Todd Andrews was a fianna fail TD and RTE Director General.
tubridy's brother ran for election, whilst he had been in ogra fianna fail as a young fellow and student.

Two of his uncles were Andrews TDs and two of his first cousings were also fianna fail TDs.
So it was a joke to see him supposedly objectively interview fine gael TDs and leader while at the same time give soft soap interviews to fianna fail leaders and TDs.

He went to school with craig doyle and "royal" nugent.

Leave baby cakes alone.

ben.schlomo · 01-12-2017 12:16am

Lots of really good stuff on the news/culture/current affairs side of things between Radio 1 and Rte 1. 2fm is just noise, should be turned off. Rte 2 should be turned into a sports channel of some form, its the only thing worth a watch on it, their 'entertainment' side is non-existent and a complete waste of money.

liam7831 · 01-12-2017 12:19am

I'm sure Prime Time Investigates could get a show out of the goings on in there

Purple Mountain · 01-12-2017 12:27am

foxy farmer wrote: »

if we're lucky Marian herself on a good day.

...I'd consider that unlucky...

riemann · 01-12-2017 12:37am

Deleted User wrote: »

Nothing against the guy but it seems strange that Nicky Byrne got a gig paying 200k a year at (unprofitable and more-unpopular-than-they-would-have-you-believe) 2fm, having not worked in radio before (as far as i know?). What a lifeline he was given there seeing as a huge proportion of former boyband members etc. sink into a unenviable "has-been" position when the band finishes or ends up with no purpose/status in life etc - instead he has a career in the media layed out for him on 4 grand a week, even for him that's a sweet deal.

This sums it up for me. Isn't he the son in law of our former dear leader?

What I know for definite is he is probably one of the worst "DJ's" I have ever had the displeasure to listen to. Dan Healy or whatever his name is who runs 2fm now has completely ruined it. The few decent DJ's like Will Leahy kicked to the kerb replaced with hashtag queens like Louise McSharry who have no discernible talent whatsoever apart from the ability to talk without saying anything.

LewisR · 01-12-2017 12:46am

Will Leahy on DriveTime 2FM was the best show. They moved him to the weekends and now he's moved to RTÉ GOLD, whatever the hell that is. Absolutely outrageous decision to get rid of him.

BTW, who's that clown of a woman doing the lunchtime slot on 2FM? She's the worst I've heard.

Eoghan McDermot minus the Niall Horan obsession is decent.

holyhead · 01-12-2017 12:48am

On television Brian Farrell, Jonathan Bowman, Pat Kenny, and Gay Byrne were all excellent superb broadcasters. All four men had to my mind gravitas. They had depth. Mike Murphy also deserves an honourable mention. However no one has come through from the next generation remotely comparable to these guys. Now we have Brendan O'Connor, Ryan Tubridy, Joe Duffy and Ray D'Arcy. Very depressing.

The Rape of Lucretia · 01-12-2017 12:49am

Vladimir Poontang wrote: »

Marty Whelan is a ****ing legend though.

Thats the guy that sank Lyric FM. Got his toe in the door. Some producer thought Marts knew something about classical music and would make it accessible to the great unwashed. His show and station tanked as people switched off in droves. When no one at all was tuning into it anymore, they switched off the station itself. Shame. He has some crime to answer if I ever got my hands on him. Puccini expert mein arsch.

riemann · 01-12-2017 12:56am

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Thats the guy that sank Lyric FM. Got his toe in the door. Some producer thought Marts knew something about classical music and would make it accessible to the great unwashed. His show and station tanked as people switched off in droves. When no one at all was tuning into it anymore, they switched off the station itself. Shame. He has some crime to answer if I ever got my hands on him. Puccini expert mein arsch.

Marty in the Mornings is up 1,000 (b-o-b) and a growth of 2,000 (y-o-y) with 45,000 tuning on weekday mornings.
Marty in the Morning gains 5,000 b-on-b and 2,000 y-o-y to 49,000

He's not that bad. Always found him to be a welcome positive yet not annoying bouncing off the walls wacky in the morning.

There's far worse than him out there. I would agree he knows f all about classical music though, nor do I.

riemann · 01-12-2017 12:59am

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

When no one at all was tuning into it anymore, they switched off the station itself.

Would you mind explaining this? Lyric FM is still going... unless I'm terribly mistaken

The Rape of Lucretia · 01-12-2017 1:06am

riemann wrote: »

Would you mind explaining this? Lyric FM is still going... unless I'm terribly mistaken

Havent heard it in years. Since not long after El Marto got involved actually.
Possibly a wrong assumption on my part. If he is still there though it amounts to pretty much the same thing unfortunately.

riemann · 01-12-2017 1:11am

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Havent heard it in years. Since not long after El Marto got involved actually.
Possibly a wrong assumption on my part. If he is still there though it amounts to pretty much the same thing unfortunately.

Ah ok, so you stopped listening, hence it must have closed.

I do admire your hatred of Marty.

He has no time for hate, just positivity.

Second Yellow · 01-12-2017 1:11am

LewisR wrote: »

RTÉ as a whole is summed up by one person. Lottie Ryan. Talentless and gormless. Stealing a wage from the genuinely talented people looking to break into TV/radio.

I'd do 6 months in Mountjoy before I'd hand over money for the license fee.

Many in RTÉ seem to feel like they have some duty to babysit her. Expensive babysitting service...

Brendan Bendar · 01-12-2017 8:24am

jmayo wrote: »

There's more doctors on RTE than there are in the local hospital.

I suppose people can see makey up ones on the TV rather than some of the makey up ones that have worked in the HSE for real. :rolleyes:

Brilliant.

Yep it's Mick Dunne of the sports department and Eileen of the newsroom.

Some others are ...
Phillip Boucher Hayes nephew of Myles Dungan
Ryan Tubridy and David McSavage, grandsons of former DG Todd Andrews
Whoever thought dave mcsavage was worth a tv program :eek:

The late Jonathan Philbin Bowman, son of John Bowman.
Richard Curran is brother of former DG Noel Curran.
Mirriam's hubbie Steve Carson was director of programming in RTE until move to BBC NI.
Her ex was Tom McGurk of the rugby fame.

ryan tubridy's grandfather Todd Andrews was a fianna fail TD and RTE Director General.
tubridy's brother ran for election, whilst he had been in ogra fianna fail as a young fellow and student.

Two of his uncles were Andrews TDs and two of his first cousings were also fianna fail TDs.
So it was a joke to see him supposedly objectively interview fine gael TDs and leader while at the same time give soft soap interviews to fianna fail leaders and TDs.

He went to school with craig doyle and "royal" nugent.

I see Abi Philbin Bowman is some kind of a producer out there now

Isn’t one othe dudes who does the early morning radio related to the Late Colm Murray.

Sarah Caden... ..anything to John Caden?

Plenty more I’m sure.

Second Yellow · 01-12-2017 8:44am

holyhead wrote: »

On television Brian Farrell, Jonathan Bowman, Pat Kenny, and Gay Byrne were all excellent superb broadcasters. All four men had to my mind gravitas. They had depth. Mike Murphy also deserves an honourable mention. However no one has come through from the next generation remotely comparable to these guys.

It has been my opinion for a long time that these guys came through before nepotism had taken a stranglehold on RTE. Now people like that can't rise up through the ranks or get a chance in the first place.

suicide_circus · 01-12-2017 9:08am

holyhead wrote: »

On television Brian Farrell, Jonathan Bowman, Pat Kenny, and Gay Byrne were all excellent superb broadcasters. All four men had to my mind gravitas. They had depth. Mike Murphy also deserves an honourable mention. However no one has come through from the next generation remotely comparable to these guys. Now we have Brendan O'Connor, Ryan Tubridy, Joe Duffy and Ray D'Arcy. Very depressing.

The gentleman broadcaster is a thing of the past. With the exception of John Creedon and Pat Kenny.

splinter65 · 01-12-2017 9:13am

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Havent heard it in years. Since not long after El Marto got involved actually.
Possibly a wrong assumption on my part. If he is still there though it amounts to pretty much the same thing unfortunately.

No it’s still there. My car radio automatically tunes to LyricFM when I press Radio 1

twinytwo · 01-12-2017 9:35am

Only in Ireland would you be forced to pay for something the vast majority of people do not want/use and then because the government know that no one wants, lets have revenue deduct it from your income.

I for one hope there are protests 100 times worse than what was there for Water... been fat chance of that

kupus · 01-12-2017 10:12am

Second Yellow wrote: »

Many in RTÉ seem to feel like they have some duty to babysit her. Expensive babysitting service...

Question should be.....Why?

topper75 · 01-12-2017 10:59am

topper75 wrote: »

Nepotism I know of (there must be more):

...
Mary/Lucy Kennedy

seachto7 wrote: »

You sure Maru Kennedy is related to Lucy?

yosser hughes wrote: »

I don't think those two Kennedys are related.
...

Balls.

I absolutely screwed up with that one lads. Apologies - esp to the two Kennedy ladies! They are not related. Both their own women in broadcasting. I have a false memory of when Lucy appeared on the scene being Mary's daughter. Utterly incorrect. The nepotism levels are inordinately high in the state broadcaster yes, but this was not an instance of it. Hands up.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 01-12-2017 11:52am

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

I see Abi Philbin Bowman is some kind of a producer out there now

Isn’t one othe dudes who does the early morning radio related to the Late Colm Murray.

Sarah Caden... ..anything to John Caden?

Plenty more I’m sure.

She's John Caden's daughter and Brendan O'Connor's wife.

PeterParker957 · 01-12-2017 12:07pm

topper75 wrote: »

Balls.

I absolutely screwed up with that one lads. Apologies - esp to the two Kennedy ladies! They are not related. Both their own women in broadcasting. I have a false memory of when Lucy appeared on the scene being Mary's daughter. Utterly incorrect. The nepotism levels are inordinately high in the state broadcaster yes, but this was not an instance of it. Hands up.

So we still have no explanation for Lucy Kennedy having a career ????

Drat!

jmayo · 01-12-2017 12:17pm

ben.schlomo wrote: »

Lots of really good stuff on the news/culture/current affairs side of things between Radio 1 and Rte 1. 2fm is just noise, should be turned off. Rte 2 should be turned into a sports channel of some form, its the only thing worth a watch on it, their 'entertainment' side is non-existent and a complete waste of money.

I remember when RTE had Sports Stadium on a Saturday with such guys as Liam Nolan, Fred Cogley (Niall's daddy) Jim Sherwin, Brendan O'Reilly.
Actually some of those guys were pretty good.

They usually showed horse racing at first, at one stage late 80s/early 90s a First Division match from England, other sports like handball, motor racing, rugby, hockey, golf.
Lots of stuff that now never make it near RTE.

RTE also always showed Wimbledon and as kids we got to see the likes of Borg, McEnroe, Connors, Lendl, Becker, Graf, Evert, Navratilova.
Hell courtesy of RTE we got to see some of the best ever duels in tennis.

I got to see F1 races, albeit a week after the race, on RTE and thanks to them got to enjoy watching the likes of Villenuve battle the Renaults in a sh*tbox Ferrari and John Watson battle the likes of Lauda.
You got to watch the Circuit of Ireland when it was actually a damn fine Rally.
Hell at one stage they used to show autotests.

Now what sports do RTE cover?
I believe TG4 covers more sport than they do.

RTE just cover Irish rugby internationals, although they royally screwed up in not bothering to show the one single instance where Ireland beat NZ.

The sports department still partially cover soccer World Cups and Olympics but expect that to change.
And yes I know the whole televising of sport has changed, but hell they don't even cover Irish stuff at this stage.

Idbatterim · 01-12-2017 12:18pm

I agreed with water charges. If there is a protest against this total farce though. Sign me up! Let them f*ck off and stand in their Own feet. Their current affairs shows are laughable. Would they ever do one on the housing crisis and appalling infrastructure here and get the people responsible for it on? Or is it another surprise surprise scandal in the Catholic Church etc that doesn't effect the 99.9999999999999999% that will frame The national debate? Pathetic!

marieholmfan · 01-12-2017 12:20pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

Or is it another surprise surprise scandal in the Catholic Church etc that doesn't effect the 99.9999999999999999% that will frame a final debate?

The Church scandals only came to light after the Church was a weakened (not spent) force in Irish life and are in the main historical. They weren't reporting on this when it was happening.

KungPao · 01-12-2017 12:33pm

PeterParker957 wrote: »

So we still have no explanation for Lucy Kennedy having a career ????

Drat!

Wiki says her Da is a Eurovision song writer/entertainer kinda lad.

Who I suppose knew someone who pulled strings. The usual.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 01-12-2017 1:09pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

I agreed with water charges. If there is a protest against this total farce though. Sign me up! Let them f*ck off and stand in their Own feet. Their current affairs shows are laughable. Would they ever do one on the housing crisis and appalling infrastructure here and get the people responsible for it on? Or is it another surprise surprise scandal in the Catholic Church etc that doesn't effect the 99.9999999999999999% that will frame The national debate? Pathetic!

Their current affairs shows have brought to light abuse of the elderly, the mentally disabled and children in crèches; corruption amongst County Councillors; the appalling conditions that many renters are forced to lived in and many other serious social issues. There have also been numerous programmes on the housing crisis. What on earth are you on about?

foxy farmer · 01-12-2017 2:35pm

Sean o Rourke is married to Caroline Murphy. She reads the papers on Morning Ireland. I remember she used to cover tennis highlights in the past. She is some type of psychologist as well. Sean claimed last year that he wasn't worth the 290k he is paid. Wtf?

Idbatterim · 01-12-2017 2:56pm

Jeffrey Bumpy Horse wrote: »

Their current affairs shows have brought to light abuse of the elderly, the mentally disabled and children in crèches; corruption amongst County Councillors; the appalling conditions that many renters are forced to lived in and many other serious social issues. There have also been numerous programmes on the housing crisis. What on earth are you on about?

I stopped watching it after years of not actually having the people on, that they need to have on. Why dont they get on the likes of people with actual experience, to go head to head with the moron politicians and councillors?

What they need on is experienced people with solutions, then have the politicians and councillors there and ask them why they arent doing that, that is what it will take!

mordeith · 01-12-2017 3:07pm

lawred2 wrote: »

I don't mind Donal Skehan to be honest. He's definitely not the worst.

Just one slight error in your post. He is the worst.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 01-12-2017 3:08pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

I stopped watching it after years of not actually having the people on, that they need to have on. Why dont they get on the likes of people with actual experience, to go head to head with the moron politicians and councillors?

What they need on is experienced people with solutions, then have the politicians and councillors there and ask them why they arent doing that, that is what it will take!

Except the politicians and councillors will not usually agree to take part in debates where they know they will be asked really awkward questions by genuine experts. I am sure RTE do their best, but they're not a court of law. They can't force anyone to take part in their programmes. All they can do, a lot of the time, is expose the issues and the corrupt people behind them.

Idbatterim · 01-12-2017 3:15pm

Jeffrey Bumpy Horse wrote: »

Except the politicians and councillors will not usually agree to take part in debates where they know they will be asked really awkward questions by genuine experts. I am sure RTE do their best, but they're not a court of law. They can't force anyone to take part in their programmes. All they can do, a lot of the time, is expose the issues and the corrupt people behind them.

I agree with that. But the reason I would get the experts etc on and its perhaps even better not to get the politicians on, is to actually focus on how it is the politicians that are totally and utterly responsible Massively ramp up the pressure on them to do something. The politicians are taking the total and utter piss. But the media is failing the country too in my opinion...

Is the narcissism of RTE employees getting out of hand?

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