Putting in an offer - how can you suss if counter bids are genuine?

Hello Lady! · 20-09-2014 8:15pm #1

Folks, grateful for your advice and expertise please

We are hoping to buy a house soon, mortgage approved, confirmation of same in our hand, not in a chain. There is really very little suitable in the area we want to buy (need actually as we need to be close to family and work due to childcare).

We found a house in a very settled estate that ww already know some of the neighbours. It's in good nick but to be the house we need, it needs an extension and heating upgrade.

We put in an offer. Then there was a counter offer, back to us, we went up €1k, they went up €1k. We were then told another bidder entered. In the space of 2 weeks the house has gone up almost €20k to what it was first on at.

Both hubby and I are very keen on the house and we see it as being a long term home, particularly once tge extra work is done. We don't see that we would get anything like what we want at the moment and this is tge best alternative - buy and improve exactly the way we want.

So we are very keen on the house.

But something is itching at my instincts. I dunno why but the way the prices have suddenly raced up has me uncomfortable. The lack of property in our area seems to have created a mini property bubble. Much as I love the house I don't want to get stung either.

How do you - or can you - check if counter offers are genuine?. We had to provide proof of mortgage but how can we trust the EA that the others did? Can we ask to see the traffic on the offers? For all we know the vendor could have someone pushing up the price.

Lenny · 20-09-2014 8:18pm

Aparantly I had read that estate agents have to have a budding book, so maybe call into them and ask to see it?

Wabbit Ears · 20-09-2014 8:37pm

How long has the property been on the market?

If it was on it for a while and there's been no sale and all of a sudden there's a bidding war, Its fake as fcuk.

But you already know this, When your gut tell's you you're being fcuked, its usually because you are. That's why estate agents usually have a big smile on their face.

Hello Lady! · 20-09-2014 8:39pm

Lenny wrote: »

Aparantly I had read that estate agents have to have a budding book, so maybe call into them and ask to see it?

Thanks. We have been asked yo confirm each bid in writing so I'm fairly sure that its all 'above board' in the book, but that still wouldn't prove that those bidding against us are genuine???

Part of the reason I'm nervous is because this house was on the market for about a month before we were fully mortgage approved. Suddenly as soon as we make an offer within the space of a fortnight there are two other bidders clamouring against us to secure the house and we're looking at €20+ on the asking price. I wouldn't have said it was that undervalued to begin with.

Hello Lady! · 20-09-2014 8:54pm

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

How long has the property been on the market?

If it was on it for a while and there's been no sale and all of a sudden there's a bidding war, Its fake as fcuk.

But you already know this, When your gut tell's you you're being fcuked, its usually because you are. That's why estate agents usually a big smile on their face.

You're probably right but I'm raging....so would love this house. Not for what it is now but what it could be. It was on for a month and got an offer €3k over the asking price. Stayed there for a while. All viewings have been open viewings with multiple people viewing. Our first viewing there seemed to be a few people taking an interest but the second time we viewed most people briefly looked and left. And yet it was after the second one that the stakes got higher.

markpb · 20-09-2014 8:54pm

As far as I know, there's no requirement for the agents to record bids or share any information with you. Remember, you're not paying them, the seller is so you're the product, not the client. Pick a price you're happy to pay and if/when you reach that price, say no and walk away. If the other bidders are fake, they'll disappear and the agent will come back to you. If they're real, at least you won't make an expensive mistake.

Edit: I was was wrong, the regulations act changes this.

61.— Without prejudice to the generality of regulations made under section 46 , where land is offered for sale, other than by auction, by a licensee who is a property services employer or an independent contractor (including, in the case of a property services employer, the provision of such offer by a principal officer or employee of the property services employer) the licensee shall retain a record in the specified form for a period of not less than 6 years, of all offers received by the licensee, including conditional acceptances, in respect of the sale.

I can't see anything that indicates who the data should be made available to though.

kippy · 20-09-2014 8:58pm

It amazes me that there isnt a requirement of somesort on the EA to at the very least maintain a record that can be checked by a third party of bids taken on a property. Estate agents than engage in the behaviour that is bein talked about here are essentially defrauding the buyers involved.

markpb · 20-09-2014 9:01pm

kippy wrote: »

It amazes me that there isnt a requirement of somesort on the EA to at the very least maintain a record that can be checked by a third party of bids taken on a property. Estate agents than engage in the behaviour that is bein talked about here are essentially defrauding the buyers involved.

Remember that the agents job is to get the best price for the seller, not to help the buyer.

Wabbit Ears · 20-09-2014 9:08pm

Exactly, they are working on commission and it would be incredibly hard to prove that the other bids were fake. There really is nothing to stop them doing this and its not a conspiracy theory, this is a completely standard modus operandi. For them its a win win win, they get higher commission, The seller gets a better price and the market inflates, meaning other sales in the area go up in price for them also.

brianwalshcork · 20-09-2014 9:43pm

Is it really worth it to the agent? If he is on a flat %, then why risk x% of the asking price just to gain a little bit more? His time would be better spent closing the sale, sticking his Sold sign up and getting more houses on his books.

If the commission is 2% then he gets €20 for every 1000 the fake bidder ups the price at the risk of the real buyer walking away, along with his 4k commission ( assuming the house is 200k)

kippy · 20-09-2014 10:30pm

markpb wrote: »

Remember that the agents job is to get the best price for the seller, not to help the buyer.

One would assume that the caveat of 'within the confines of the law' would apply. One also has to remember it could be in the sellers best interests to have a log of bids from bidders as well.....

kippy · 20-09-2014 10:31pm

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

Exactly, they are working on commission and it would be incredibly hard to prove that the other bids were fake. There really is nothing to stop them doing this and its not a conspiracy theory, this is a completely standard modus operandi. For them its a win win win, they get higher commission, The seller gets a better price and the market inflates, meaning other sales in the area go up in price for them also.

It wouldnt be that difficult to to stop them doing this were the will there.

Balmed Out · 20-09-2014 10:40pm

brianwalshcork wrote: »

Is it really worth it to the agent? If he is on a flat %, then why risk x% of the asking price just to gain a little bit more? His time would be better spent closing the sale, sticking his Sold sign up and getting more houses on his books.

If the commission is 2% then he gets €20 for every 1000 the fake bidder ups the price at the risk of the real buyer walking away, along with his 4k commission ( assuming the house is 200k)

There's the reputation gained from achieving a good price for other potential vendors.
That said, anytime I've dropped out because I've been suspicious it has ended up on the price register as the last known bid or above it. I'm sure it does happen but perhaps not as often as we suspect.

Ortiz · 21-09-2014 2:42am

Guys agents have to keep a record of bids and we are allowed to request to see the log of,offers - but surely that is a breach of data protection? The agents surely record bids with each bidders name and there is no way they can release that data to anyone. Possibly on request of a solicitor I suppose.

OP it sounds to me like there are genuine bidders in your situation. Maybe I'm wrong but the fact that they are requesting your offer in writing and that there have been multiple viewers makes me think there are other genuine bidders.

From my experience agents making up offers is a bit of a myth. Every time I've suspected it I've been wrong. I'm sure it happens with some bad apples but not half as much as we think.

Hello Lady! · 21-09-2014 6:14am

Ortiz wrote: »

Guys agents have to keep a record of bids and we are allowed to request to see the log of,offers - but surely that is a breach of data protection? The agents surely record bids with each bidders name and there is no way they can release that data to anyone. Possibly on request of a solicitor I suppose.

OP it sounds to me like there are genuine bidders in your situation. Maybe I'm wrong but the fact that they are requesting your offer in writing and that there have been multiple viewers makes me think there are other genuine bidders.

From my experience agents making up offers is a bit of a myth. Every time I've suspected it I've been wrong. I'm sure it happens with some bad apples but not half as much as we think.

TBH it's not that the EA is being so much as knowing if the other bidders are. My bro-in-law has a property rented out and was considering selling, so he chatting to someone who buys and sells property very regularly. My BIL was concerned about the price he would get and the other person basically said straight out to him 'do you not know anyone who can put in offers?' BIL looked at him confused and he winked and said see if you can get someone with a different surname to get in on the bids. BIL couldn't believe it and on the back of it advised us to check out that the bidders are genuinely interested in the property.

But sure how can we do that? Other than trust the EA that they too have supplied proof of ability to complete the sale.

And I'm assuming that if one bidder makes a final bid too rich for the rest of us but then doesn't complete the sale it will come back to whoever has the next highest offer. But if they were not genuine in the first place, then the price is still inflated!

Sirry to be a ditz about this, all new to us. And unless Phil Spencer volunteers to help any day soon we'll remain a bit clueless! In our naivete we thought we were 'strong' buyers (good deposit, no chain, looking to complete quickly) and might stand a chance of getting something with minimal hassle because of that.

Its a sickener really cos this mini bubble that has emerged has prices zooming up. For eg less than 3 months ago a 4 bed, 2 reception, 3 bath house in a very desirable estate was on at €195 and went sale agreed at €205. Now houses much smaller,3 bed, bog standard sitting room kitchen diner lay out are on for €195 and in our case getting a frenzy of interest. We're not really in a position to hold out and see if the bubble bursts (or at least deflates!). I'm terrified of making further bids on this house and in 6 months time prices go back down!

davo10 · 21-09-2014 7:22am

OP the scenario you are describing would appear to suggest there are multiple bidders.

• there is a housing shortage in the area so you said there is a "mini bubble"
• it's a nice house.
• it is only in the market for 4 weeks which is a short period of time.
• bidding only starts when 2 people want the same house so going up in €1k is common where you have 2 people who have mortgage approval and want it for themselves.
• a €20k bump is a sign of an experienced bidder entering the fray, he/she has been watching the bidding going up by small increments and is probably hoping to knock at least one of you out of the bidding by increasing the offer by this much.

You now have to decide if you want this house and what you are willing to pay for it. The EA does not work for you, his/her job is to sell the house for as much as possible and if you ever sell your house, you would want it's selling price maximised as well. We get emotionally attached to property in Ireland, but often when we lose out on one, something better comes along later.

It is more important that you don't pay more than you can afford than it is to pay more than the house is worth.

Hello Lady! · 21-09-2014 8:19am

davo10 wrote: »

OP the scenario you are describing would appear to suggest there are multiple bidders.

• there is a housing shortage in the area so you said there is a "mini bubble"
• it's a nice house.
• it is only in the market for 4 weeks which is a short period of time.
• bidding only starts when 2 people want the same house so going up in €1k is common where you have 2 people who have mortgage approval and want it for themselves.
• a €20k bump is a sign of an experienced bidder entering the fray, he/she has been watching the bidding going up by small increments and is probably hoping to knock at least one of you out of the bidding by increasing the offer by this much.

You now have to decide if you want this house and what you are willing to pay for it. The EA does not work for you, his/her job is to sell the house for as much as possible and if you ever sell your house, you would want it's selling price maximised as well. We get emotionally attached to property in Ireland, but often when we lose out on one, something better comes along later.

It is more important that you don't pay more than you can afford than it is to pay more than the house is worth.

Just to clarify it has gone up a total of €25k on the starting price, in €1k increments. Its not that a third bidder came in and offered €20k above the last offer. It was on for a month with little movement other than €3k over the asking. Since we started offering 2 weeks ago its gone up a further €21k. If we decide to offer again that will be €25k. Its been on the market for just over 6 weeks.

We can afford (mortgage wise) a lot more than this house is. But this house needs a bit of work as it currently stands (new windows, boiler, kitchen and redecoration of the bathroom and general sprucing up). To get it to where WE want it to be a better family home than we are currently in it needs an extension and heating upgrade. If we got it, further down the libe we would be looking at external insulation and an attic conversion. So lots of potential in the long term. The appeal to me is that after the extension, size wise we will have the type of house we want with about €40k less of a mortgage. The extension will be funded by savings and a small loan. I would hope that in a year or two with the value we have added we might be able to renegotiate the mortgage with a lower LTV.

However if we buy using our full mortgage approval we will only get slightly more house - not as much as this house with the extension.

We feel very torn....do we keep going or walk away? Even if it goes up another €10k thats only €1k extra deposit and not a huge amount more mortgage each month. I just feel like we are getting sucked in and carried away. I dunno why but my spidey senses are tingling. But I do love the house (would love it more the less we have to pay!

)

I'm guessing that the other bidders must also be planning on buying to improve and live there or rent out as at the current price there is little profit to be made in flipping it.

ted1 · 21-09-2014 10:14am

kippy wrote: »

It amazes me that there isnt a requirement of somesort on the EA to at the very least maintain a record that can be checked by a third party of bids taken on a property. Estate agents than engage in the behaviour that is bein talked about here are essentially defrauding the buyers involved.

Their salespeople their job is to get the highest price possible fit their client, no one is forced to buy a house, a much as it sucks they should be free to achieve the highest price

davo10 · 21-09-2014 12:22pm

Hello Lady! wrote: »

Just to clarify it has gone up a total of €25k on the starting price, in €1k increments. Its not that a third bidder came in and offered €20k above the last offer. It was on for a month with little movement other than €3k over the asking. Since we started offering 2 weeks ago its gone up a further €21k. If we decide to offer again that will be €25k. Its been on the market for just over 6 weeks.

We can afford (mortgage wise) a lot more than this house is. But this house needs a bit of work as it currently stands (new windows, boiler, kitchen and redecoration of the bathroom and general sprucing up). To get it to where WE want it to be a better family home than we are currently in it needs an extension and heating upgrade. If we got it, further down the libe we would be looking at external insulation and an attic conversion. So lots of potential in the long term. The appeal to me is that after the extension, size wise we will have the type of house we want with about €40k less of a mortgage. The extension will be funded by savings and a small loan. I would hope that in a year or two with the value we have added we might be able to renegotiate the mortgage with a lower LTV.

However if we buy using our full mortgage approval we will only get slightly more house - not as much as this house with the extension.

We feel very torn....do we keep going or walk away? Even if it goes up another €10k thats only €1k extra deposit and not a huge amount more mortgage each month. I just feel like we are getting sucked in and carried away. I dunno why but my spidey senses are tingling. But I do love the house (would love it more the less we have to pay! )

I'm guessing that the other bidders must also be planning on buying to improve and live there or rent out as at the current price there is little profit to be made in flipping it.

OP, €25k above guide is not unusual, particularly if there are three bidders. Always assume that if you want it, why wouldn't someone else? particularly if there is a shortage of houses in the area. There is another thread on here where an apartment in leitrim has gone up by €40k. You should only bid what you can afford, every buyer goes through the same emotions you are going through but at the end of the day it makes absolutely no difference. Either there are three bidders, there are no other bidders or the owner has told the EA the property will not be sold at a lower price.

If you want to call their bluff, tell them the next offer is your final one (don't say it's on the table for a week, they won't give a damn about time frames especially if the market is on the way up), but brace yourself that you will be "showing your hand" that you are at the limit of what you can afford and the other bidder will just up it by €5k to finish you off.

JustAddWater · 21-09-2014 12:34pm

ted1 wrote: »

Their salespeople their job is to get the highest price possible fit their client, no one is forced to buy a house, a much as it sucks they should be free to achieve the highest price

The are free to do it. What they're not free to do is gouge people by using fake bidders

davo10 · 21-09-2014 1:26pm

JustAddWater wrote: »

The are free to do it. What they're not free to do is gouge people by using fake bidders

Yes they are, you are entitled to ask the identity of the other bidder, you are not entitled to be told, so how do you prove who is fake and who isn't.

As s**tty as you think an EA is when you are buying, you will love their tactics when you are selling.

rubberdiddies · 21-09-2014 1:33pm

If it were me, but if course I wouldn't advocate doing this or anything, I'd get a friend or relative to bid on another house on the same agents books and see if similar happens.

Then when that house also goes up 20k or so tell them your pulling out but offer your original offer. See what happens

There's a good chance that the agent is completely above board and doing everything correctly but when I'm spending that much money id be inclined to do the above

davo10 · 21-09-2014 1:41pm

rubberdiddies wrote: »

If it were me, but if course I wouldn't advocate doing this or anything, I'd get a friend or relative to bid on another house on the same agents books and see if similar happens.

Ah come on, if the friend does that, it just pushes the price up for another bidder on that property. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Ortiz · 21-09-2014 1:51pm

rubberdiddies wrote: »

If it were me, but if course I wouldn't advocate doing this or anything, I'd get a friend or relative to bid on another house on the same agents books and see if similar happens.

Then when that house also goes up 20k or so tell them your pulling out but offer your original offer. See what happens

There's a good chance that the agent is completely above board and doing everything correctly but when I'm spending that much money id be inclined to do the above

That is ridiculous and unfair. You are either pushing the price up for someone else or giving the owner on that house false expectations.

rubberdiddies · 21-09-2014 2:04pm

Ortiz wrote: »

That is ridiculous and unfair. You are either pushing the price up for someone else or giving the owner on that house false expectations.

You're right. I wasn't thinking along those lines.

Having been stung a few times I'm generally a cynic these days. And wen spending that amount of money it's good to be thorough.

Not sure how to go about checking though without giving the agent a final figure. But of course if the other bids are real and chances are they are then you are at risk of losing out

kippy · 21-09-2014 4:10pm

ted1 wrote: »

Their salespeople their job is to get the highest price possible fit their client, no one is forced to buy a house, a much as it sucks they should be free to achieve the highest price

So they can do this outsode of consumer protection and trading law?

kippy · 21-09-2014 4:13pm

davo10 wrote: »

Yes they are, you are entitled to ask the identity of the other bidder, you are not entitled to be told, so how do you prove who is fake and who isn't.

As s**tty as you think an EA is when you are buying, you will love their tactics when you are selling.

Would you really? There are stories from the otherside of the spectrum of EAs screwing over their own clients. Personally anyone with the scruples to make up fake bids shouldnt be trusted by either party.

davo10 · 21-09-2014 4:34pm

kippy wrote: »

So they can do this outsode of consumer protection and trading law?

Which articles of consumer protection and trading law are you referring to?

davo10 · 21-09-2014 4:38pm

kippy wrote: »

Would you really? There are stories from the otherside of the spectrum of EAs screwing over their own clients. Personally anyone with the scruples to make up fake bids shouldnt be trusted by either party.

The seller employs the EA, if they feel the EA is screwing you as the seller, and you have proof, then you can sue the EA for misrepresentation and breach of contract. On the other hand, if EA maximises the price you receive for your property, well, happy days, that is exactly what you paid them to do.

Chris_5339762 · 21-09-2014 5:40pm

If you feel it is fake bidding, drop your bid by €10k and tell them it expires at the end of the week. That'll force their hand, or lose you the house.

Depends how brave you are

davo10 · 21-09-2014 5:47pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

If you feel it is fake bidding, drop your bid by €10k and tell them it expires at the end of the week. That'll force their hand, or lose you the house.

Depends how brave you are

EAs and sellers couldn't care less about a buyer who puts a time limit on an offer, in this case OP said there is a "mini bubble" in the area where the house is, with high demand and low supply. Drop the price and put a time limit will signal their exit from the bidding and the EA will think OP is not a serious bidder.

ted1 · 21-09-2014 6:14pm

kippy wrote: »

So they can do this outsode of consumer protection and trading law?

Please reference the trading law you are talking about.

Hello Lady! · 21-09-2014 7:54pm

To reiterates folks I am not assuming fraud or shifty practice from the EA...but my worry is how can I be sure the others bidding are actually in a position to bid? I can hope the EA asked them for proof in the same way he did us,but I only have his word for it. And since hearing that someone who I would have in the past believed to be an ethical and fair human being in fact engages in sharp practices when selling property this has led me to be very cynical.

Yes we really want the house, why wouldn't someone else? Good point. But it just seems strange that after a month of little interest in the property as soon as we offer things get frantic!

For reference another house is sale agreed about a week before this one hit the market. Sane house but it had an extension and attic conversion already (albeit late 80's style so not fully maximising the property but done nonetheless). That house went sale agreed for €2k less than the current bid on this property.

Really head wrecked trying to decide how far dowe go on this.... Are we being sucked into a falsely inflated market?

Any negotiating skills anyone cares to pass on? How would you go about shutting this down in your favour without spending too much???

davo10 · 21-09-2014 8:21pm

Hello Lady! wrote: »

To reiterates folks I am not assuming fraud or shifty practice from the EA...but my worry is how can I be sure the others bidding are actually in a position to bid? I can hope the EA asked them for proof in the same way he did us,but I only have his word for it. And since hearing that someone who I would have in the past believed to be an ethical and fair human being in fact engages in sharp practices when selling property this has led me to be very cynical.

Yes we really want the house, why wouldn't someone else? Good point. But it just seems strange that after a month of little interest in the property as soon as we offer things get frantic!

For reference another house is sale agreed about a week before this one hit the market. Sane house but it had an extension and attic conversion already (albeit late 80's style so not fully maximising the property but done nonetheless). That house went sale agreed for €2k less than the current bid on this property.

Really head wrecked trying to decide how far dowe go on this.... Are we being sucked into a falsely inflated market?

Any negotiating skills anyone cares to pass on? How would you go about shutting this down in your favour without spending too much???

I can only give you advice based on my own experience of buying and selling properties. You have no control over the process beyond bidding what you can afford to. There are ways of "shutting down bids in your favour" but you are now beyond that point. Yes you are being sucked in, but that is what happens when you invest emotionally in a property, this usually happens when you are buying a property that you plan to live in for the test if your life. At this stage, all you can do now is sit down with your partner, decide on a maximum figure you can afford to pay and do not bid over that figure, that is how you can get really sucked in.

Do not focus on whether the other bidders are "in a position to bid", that is the concern of the other bidder and the seller.

The fact that another house was sold previously makes no difference, then there was two of this type of house, now there is only one. It's also possible that one of the under bidders on that house is now bidding on your one.

What you are going through is the same as we have all gone through, I bought/sold houses before I bought my current home and have bought/sold since, but the house I am on is the only property I paid more than it was worth, because I wanted it. That unfortunately is the emotional investment you make when buying a "home" rather than a "house".

Not2Good · 21-09-2014 8:48pm

That happened to us last year and three years ago. When we pulled out the phantom bidder disappeared and the estate agent came back to us and wanted us to continue where we left off! We did our ar#e!

Hello Lady! wrote: »

Folks, grateful for your advice and expertise please

We are hoping to buy a house soon, mortgage approved, confirmation of same in our hand, not in a chain. There is really very little suitable in the area we want to buy (need actually as we need to be close to family and work due to childcare).

We found a house in a very settled estate that ww already know some of the neighbours. It's in good nick but to be the house we need, it needs an extension and heating upgrade.

We put in an offer. Then there was a counter offer, back to us, we went up €1k, they went up €1k. We were then told another bidder entered. In the space of 2 weeks the house has gone up almost €20k to what it was first on at.

Both hubby and I are very keen on the house and we see it as being a long term home, particularly once tge extra work is done. We don't see that we would get anything like what we want at the moment and this is tge best alternative - buy and improve exactly the way we want.

So we are very keen on the house.

But something is itching at my instincts. I dunno why but the way the prices have suddenly raced up has me uncomfortable. The lack of property in our area seems to have created a mini property bubble. Much as I love the house I don't want to get stung either.

How do you - or can you - check if counter offers are genuine?. We had to provide proof of mortgage but how can we trust the EA that the others did? Can we ask to see the traffic on the offers? For all we know the vendor could have someone pushing up the price.

kippy · 21-09-2014 11:23pm

davo10 wrote: »

Which articles of consumer protection and trading law are you referring to?

ted1 wrote: »

Please reference the trading law you are talking about.

Okay,
I realise that the OP doesn't believe this to be going how however just to answer what I have been asked.

Here is the main piece of legislation that I believe the EA would be breaking were they engaging in such behaviour and it could be proven:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0050/sec0006.html#sec6
(Making a gain or causing a loss by deception)
It's under the general "Fraud" category.

Now, there is a "Code of practice here"
http://www.npsra.ie/website/npsra/npsraweb.nsf/0/B86586662416AA6380257CDF004322A2/$File/Code%20of%20Practice.pdf
While not a legal instrument I believe it is important.
I'd draw attention to 1.9 (record of offers) and 3.1 (information provided to the public) as well as other areas.

I've no idea how widespread the practice is or if it happens at all but it's just another area that could be tidied up on.

The other side of the coin is the EA's services being engaged buy a seller - the EA deciding himself or another of his clients might be able to pick the property up on the cheap. They advise the client that there are no/low offers and only advise of the offers from EA's associate - thereby picking up the property at a price lower than that required by the seller.

Not sure how widespread that is either.

The main issue is, the lack of trust.
The EA is getting a truck load of money, is responsible for brokering a major financial transaction and a lot of what goes on is essentially hearsay. That is not, in my opinion, a good way to do business.

kippy · 21-09-2014 11:26pm

davo10 wrote: »

The seller employs the EA, if they feel the EA is screwing you as the seller, and you have proof, then you can sue the EA for misrepresentation and breach of contract. On the other hand, if EA maximises the price you receive for your property, well, happy days, that is exactly what you paid them to do.

Look,
I know how it works. In my opinion however if the EA maximises the price you receive for your property via fraudulent means, not happy days for the EA.

davo10 · 22-09-2014 2:53am

kippy wrote: »

Look,
I know how it works. In my opinion however if the EA maximises the price you receive for your property via fraudulent means, not happy days for the EA.

The purchase of a house falls outside the remit of legislation laid down in the sale of goods and services act, your solicitor and surveyor are there to advise you on the purchase and it is a case of caveat emptor. If you feel the EA is untrustworthy, discuss it with your solicitor.

The code of practice you refer to is voluntary, but binding on those parties that subscribe to it. It is not a statutory instrument and an EA cannot be prosecuted under its provisions.

When you consider that an EAs job is to bring a property to the market and invite interested parties to bid on it, accusing him/her of fraud when that very thing happens just because you don't like the fact that the property you want is going up in price, seems well, misguided.

Unless you can prove fraud, then yes, happy days for EA and seller.

I suspect this attitude is going to become more prevalent because prices are now going up. Two years ago the OP might have been the only bidder and the guide price cheaper but I still don't get why you are on your high horse about this kippy, it's a property with potential to extend, in an area with demand and low supply and where prices are rising. The shock would be if there weren't other bidders and the price wasn't going up, not what's actually happening.

Hello Lady! · 22-09-2014 9:50am

I agree with kippys point that EAs should be more regulated and not just if they choose to be. I have personally seen some pretty sharp practice from EAs acting as letting agents. I also know of a few buyers and sellers who were stung but can do little about it. Given the sheer expense of buying a house they should be held to more stringent codes of conduct and they should be obligatory not voluntary. It's a pretty lame system to be fair.

kippy · 22-09-2014 12:30pm

davo10 wrote: »

The purchase of a house falls outside the remit of legislation laid down in the sale of goods and services act, your solicitor and surveyor are there to advise you on the purchase and it is a case of caveat emptor. If you feel the EA is untrustworthy, discuss it with your solicitor.

The code of practice you refer to is voluntary, but binding on those parties that subscribe to it. It is not a statutory instrument and an EA cannot be prosecuted under its provisions.

When you consider that an EAs job is to bring a property to the market and invite interested parties to bid on it, accusing him/her of fraud when that very thing happens just because you don't like the fact that the property you want is going up in price, seems well, misguided.

Unless you can prove fraud, then yes, happy days for EA and seller.

I suspect this attitude is going to become more prevalent because prices are now going up. Two years ago the OP might have been the only bidder and the guide price cheaper but I still don't get why you are on your high horse about this kippy, it's a property with potential to extend, in an area with demand and low supply and where prices are rising. The shock would be if there weren't other bidders and the price wasn't going up, not what's actually happening.

The fraud regulations/laws oversee everything and has a direct implication for consumer protection. You've stated exactly what the EA's job is, if however they break the law in doing their job it's the same as you or me breaking the law in doing our job.

I've already stated that the code wasn't legally binding.

I'm not getting on any high horse. I'm just pointing out that the EA is breaking the law IF there are no other bidders pushing up the price. Simple as that. Do you disagree with that statement?
Again, I am not suggesting the the EA is behaving like this in this particular instance just pointing out that it does happen, I have seen it happen, and others appear to have seen it happen as well. EA's get away with it because they are not well enough regulated despite the area they are involved in being a multimillion euro "industry". It is very difficult to prove any such allegation because it is so unregulated. As I've stated sellers can and in my experience have lost out also from this lack of regulation in certain cases.

I dont care either way if property goes up or down. I care that we've not learned a thing from the last bubble we had and haven't taken any steps to protect buyers and sellers from dodgy agents.

Derek Zoolander · 22-09-2014 12:35pm

Hello Lady! wrote: »

To reiterates folks I am not assuming fraud or shifty practice from the EA...but my worry is how can I be sure the others bidding are actually in a position to bid? I can hope the EA asked them for proof in the same way he did us,but I only have his word for it. And since hearing that someone who I would have in the past believed to be an ethical and fair human being in fact engages in sharp practices when selling property this has led me to be very cynical.

Yes we really want the house, why wouldn't someone else? Good point. But it just seems strange that after a month of little interest in the property as soon as we offer things get frantic!

For reference another house is sale agreed about a week before this one hit the market. Sane house but it had an extension and attic conversion already (albeit late 80's style so not fully maximising the property but done nonetheless). That house went sale agreed for €2k less than the current bid on this property.

Really head wrecked trying to decide how far dowe go on this.... Are we being sucked into a falsely inflated market?

Any negotiating skills anyone cares to pass on? How would you go about shutting this down in your favour without spending too much???

The bit in bold shouldn't matter - it seems that you a buying a house to live in long term. The relative value of the house shouldn't make any difference whatsoever - you shouldn't care if its worth 100k or 1million in 10 years time. You need to pick a figure that you can afford and then work on that basis.

The one thing that is worth avoiding is going up in small increments - I would guess if you'd initially upped your offer by 15k you would have been accepted rather than each party increasing 1K at a time

davo10 · 22-09-2014 1:29pm

Hello Lady! wrote: »

I agree with kippys point that EAs should be more regulated and not just if they choose to be. I have personally seen some pretty sharp practice from EAs acting as letting agents. I also know of a few buyers and sellers who were stung but can do little about it. Given the sheer expense of buying a house they should be held to more stringent codes of conduct and they should be obligatory not voluntary. It's a pretty lame system to be fair.

OP, short of giving you the other bidders details and financial records, which will never happen, I don't see how the EA can be more transparent in his/her dealings with you. They have informed the seller of your bids and informed you of the other bids, what more do you expect?

You seem to be focusing "on the man rather than the ball", venting at the EA rather than considering what you could have done better. As Derek Zoolander posted above, increasing a bid by €1k is a waste of time, it shows the other bidders you are short on finance and nearing your limit. Also, an extra €2k each time is a no brainer to an under bidder, what difference does it make if the property final cost is €200k, it's 1% increase. If you bump it up by €5k or €10k, now the under bidders have to consider their position a lot more carefully before they bid. But it may be too late for that now, again at best all you can do now is consider how much you are willing to pay and give it one last punt.

Hello Lady! · 22-09-2014 4:43pm

Derek Zoolonder wrote:

The one thing that is worth avoiding is going up in small increments - I would guess if you'd initially upped your offer by 15k you would have been accepted rather than each party increasing 1K at a time

davo10 wrote: »

OP, short of giving you the other bidders details and financial records, which will never happen, I don't see how the EA can be more transparent in his/her dealings with you. They have informed the seller of your bids and informed you of the other bids, what more do you expect?

You seem to be focusing "on the man rather than the ball", venting at the EA rather than considering what you could have done better. As Derek Zoolander posted above, increasing a bid by €1k is a waste of time, it shows the other bidders you are short on finance and nearing your limit. Also, an extra €2k each time is a no brainer to an under bidder, what difference does it make if the property final cost is €200k, it's 1% increase. If you bump it up by €5k or €10k, now the under bidders have to consider their position a lot more carefully before they bid. But it may be too late for that now, again at best all you can do now is consider how much you are willing to pay and give it one last punt.

Surely it's all relative to the price of the property? I mean if the house is on at €130k you wpuld be very foolish to go in with €15k over that the quickly secure the house? Why would you go straight in at more than 10% over the price? That could well result in you paying €10k or more than you need to. If the objective of the seller is to get as much as possible then equally the aim of the buyer is to get it at the best price they can. Maybe going in at €15k over would be a reasonable strategy for a more expensive property doing so for anything unfer €250k could be a bit reckless. And we don't have a thousand here or there to pay more than we need to. So by going up €1k at a time we are less likely to end up paying more than we absolutely have to to secure it. Of course regardless of €1k/5k/500k it all means nothing unless you are thr last bidder in it.

Crusades · 22-09-2014 4:52pm

davo10 wrote: »

As s**tty as you think an EA is when you are buying, you will love their tactics when you are selling.

There's a different set of tactics they use for prising property from vulnerable, naive and/or stupid sellers at as low a price as possible.

These properties can be offloaded to their mates and/or "flipped" to vulnerable, naive and/or stupid buyers who think the EA is "really sound".

An EA is not your mate. They are only interested in your money.

kippy · 22-09-2014 4:53pm

Crusades wrote: »

There's a different set of tactics they use for prising property from vulnerable, naive and/or stupid sellers at as low a price as possible.

These properties can be offloaded to their mates and/or "flipped" to vulnerable, naive and/or stupid buyers.

I've already mentioned that but the posters here don't seem to care at all.

Crusades · 22-09-2014 4:57pm

Externally, EAs are well dressed, say all the right things, are "matey" and want to look trust-worthy by hiding behind accreditations and qualifications.

Underneath it all, they are ruthless snakes who do not care about you or your predicament. They want your money and that's it. You will never see their internal side.

This is understandable. The top three reasons for going into business:
1. make money
2. make money
3. make money

The more you make, the sooner you get to retire.

cpoh1 · 22-09-2014 5:30pm

Crusades wrote: »

Externally, EAs are well dressed, say all the right things, are "matey" and want to look trust-worthy by hiding behind accreditations and qualifications.

Underneath it all, they are ruthless snakes who do not care about you or your predicament. They want your money and that's it. You will never see their internal side.

This is understandable. The top three reasons for going into business:
1. make money
2. make money
3. make money

The more you make, the sooner you get to retire.

Ridiculous post

Crusades · 22-09-2014 5:38pm

cpoh1 wrote: »

Ridiculous post

Look, I work a lot with salesmen.

I don't blame them. They're generally on on crap base salaries and have to be ruthless to get their commission. If they don't/can't compete, they don't survive. It's that simple.

They can make lots of money with the right attitude: a ruthless attitude.

Mr McBoatface · 22-09-2014 5:52pm

I'm hoping to get the keys of my new home this week. Bought it as a family home with no intentions of making money on it. I got it for less than asking but in my opinion I've overpaid. That said I wanted the house (was sure not to show this when viewing), the only advise I can give has been already given, set a cut off value and do go over that value.

Since I've secured my new home other houses in the same estate have come on the market at lower asking prices, but where not as modernized as the one I've bought garages not converted, old window, etc. If I bought one of those maybe I could have invested in renovation work and brought them up to the same standard and maybe saved a few thousand or had exactly the finish I wanted, but the fact is they where not on the market at the time, you can only focus on whats on the market currently.

I've no regrets on my purchases, I hope it all works out for you...... out of interest what locality are you looking to buy ?

davo10 · 22-09-2014 6:24pm

Hello Lady! wrote: »

Surely it's all relative to the price of the property? I mean if the house is on at €130k you wpuld be very foolish to go in with €15k over that the quickly secure the house? Why would you go straight in at more than 10% over the price? That could well result in you paying €10k or more than you need to. If the objective of the seller is to get as much as possible then equally the aim of the buyer is to get it at the best price they can. Maybe going in at €15k over would be a reasonable strategy for a more expensive property doing so for anything unfer €250k could be a bit reckless. And we don't have a thousand here or there to pay more than we need to. So by going up €1k at a time we are less likely to end up paying more than we absolutely have to to secure it. Of course regardless of €1k/5k/500k it all means nothing unless you are thr last bidder in it.

OP you asked how to bring the bidding to a conclusion in your favour, that is how it is done, you clear out the other bidders. But in your case it is too late, you are almost at your limit and you missed the opportunity early on to show you mean business. Going up in 1s and 2s has just encouraged all bidders to keep their hats in the ring. Right now you are paying €25k more and all three bidders are still there so this will go higher, an early bump may have knocked out at least one. By going up in 1s you are less likely to pay over the odds but more likely to keep the other bidders bidding, watch now, the bidding time will slow, one bidder will smell blood and will make a big bid and that will be the end of it.

davo10 · 22-09-2014 7:56pm

Crusades wrote: »

Externally, EAs are well dressed, say all the right things, are "matey" and want to look trust-worthy by hiding behind accreditations and qualifications.

Underneath it all, they are ruthless snakes who do not care about you or your predicament. They want your money and that's it. You will never see their internal side.

This is understandable. The top three reasons for going into business:
1. make money
2. make money
3. make money

The more you make, the sooner you get to retire.

Crickey, making money is one of the top reasons for every person to go into business, heck in most cases it's essential. I'd retire tomorrow if I had enough of it, wouldn't you? In the meantime it comes in handy to support the family, business, tuition fees, mortgage, that type of thing.

Putting in an offer - how can you suss if counter bids are genuine?

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