Re-Open Lisbon-Abortion Thread Please

I haven't shouted down anyone actually. I made some propositions and questioned the pro-Lisbon consensus that the Maastrict provisions will remain effective. It's up to the reader as to whether they want to consider, accept or reject those propositions. I'm just putting them out there.

IMO it's the pro-Lisbon side that shout people down on abortion. "Oh here's such and such a provision from Maastrict, that should do, if you don't agree, shut up."

As for "not explaining how abortion could be introduced", well I have, quite distinctly. It involves the Charter of Fundamental Rights, the European Court of Justice, and the new primacy that they have.

Again, you don't have to agree with this analysis but nonetheless I did explain how I think it will happen.

The EU treaties explictly recognise Ireland's constitutional ban on abortion. There's nothing to discuss. Even if there was, you had an opportunity to discuss it, and chose not to.

To the best of my knowledge, Ireland's Constitutional abortion ban only gets a mention in the 1992 Maastrict Treaty which is incorporated in the Lisbon Treaty. The question is, how does this provision stand up to the more fundamental changes that Lisbon will cause. Which include: primacy of the ECJ, primacy of Charter of Fundamental Rights and the novel EU Citizen status.

I do not think it will ultimately stand up, however the question should certainly be up for debate. In legal systems there are contradictions all the time; but when push comes to shove it is the prime authority has the final say.

So, to take it further, that section of Maastrict could be deemed anti-CFR and removed just as the Irish law could be.

There is scarcely any issue on which "there is nothing to discuss", and it's most dubious when someone tries to tell you as much.

This is not the place to discuss politics; it's a place to discuss moderation.

Aside from the fact that there are unresolved points on the locked thread, I was asked "where is your evidence" here, wasn't I?

When you were told this, you just ignored what people said. Moreover you got personal and insulting.

I did not ignore it as I recognised the Maastrict provisions exist; I just don't think they have any real weight. In terms of blocking an abortion ruling, I don't think it has the power to do that. It's from 1992. It worked in the framework of the EU then but EU will have changed radically after Lisbon.

A more reliable solution if Ireland is interested in preserving our abortion ban, is for the Charter of Fundamental Rights to have "right of the unborn" clause analgous to our own Constitution. I mean, if the EU really does respect our current laws and has no interest in changing them, what harm would such a specific clause in the Fundamental Charter cause?

I did indeed point out that people's own person preference for legalisation of abortion may be stulting their interest in making accurate information available. Nothing unreasonable about suggesting this.

You are wrong. There is explicit mention in the Lisbon Treaty about the inclusion of a protocol that essentially states "This Treaty has no power over the Irish constitutional status of abortion."

A specific quote from the Treaty would be welcome but I do believe that's the Maastrict provision. I.e. of questionable worth in preventing universal on-demand abortion.

As the closure of the thread was correct (though I disagree with it; I would have enjoyed pissing you off more), this thread is useless.

So as your objective on that thread was to just piss someone off, you admit that you're not interested in "discussion occuring"? The least you can do if you really want debate to prosper is to engage in it yourself.

Welcome to Feedback ,8,1. We'll keep your political persuasions under wraps, don't worry ,8,1.. ,H,A ..... ,Hitler,A.... ,H,Adolf...

Hmm.. I had not noticed that.. You're the one with the Hitler fixation here obviously. ",8,1" rather is a reference to Commodore 64 nostalgia.

Perhaps the moderator had a similar interpretation of your thread, and decided it simply didn't exist...

Similar interpretation, what do you mean? I recognise the existence of the Maastrict Treaty; oscarBravo just locks threads he disagrees with and closes down debate. There's no comparison.

Why does abortion constantly rear its head when there's something like this referendum going on?

Perhaps because alot of the time it is relevant? Our abortion law is Constitutionally bound, so naturally abortion will tend to come up in Constitutional referendums.