Teacher shouting at kids

greenspurs · 08-09-2020 12:42pm #1

Our primary school resumed last Tuesday.
My 11 yr old son in 5th class came home sick last Thursday.

This morning, he was complaining again of it, so my wife questioned as to why, is all ok in school.
So then he said the teacher (male, 30s ) roared at him last Weds over not drinking fast enough/not putting water bottle away , something to do with water bottle, and he was afraid of him.

Just last night, a mother of one of the other kids in the class msgd my wife to say that her daughter was afraid of the teacher after the way he shouted at my lad.

Hes new enough to teaching , 2-3 years, and he was a work mate (not real close) for a few years also.

I have rang the school looking to meet him to discuss.
Any tips on how to go about it , without getting all " Well my son wouldn't....."

SouthWesterly · 08-09-2020 2:02pm

I would have been getting an appointment with the principal not the teacher

JayRoc · 08-09-2020 2:05pm

SouthWesterly wrote: »

I would have been getting an appointment with the principal not the teacher

If they know one another, even slightly, maybe the personal route is the way to go.

Going over a person's head rarely works well if they continue working in the situation that prompted the complaint

spaceHopper · 08-09-2020 2:08pm

Ask him has he any idea why you asked for the meeting and leave an uncomfortable silence, then ask him have you made your point. Then suggest he apologise to your son and the class.

If he tries to deny tell him he needs to reflect on things and maybe he could arrange a meeting with the principle. That should put the fear into him.

It's to soon in the new school term to be so stressed that he's shouting.

wildwillow · 08-09-2020 2:10pm

He may not be aware that he is shouting especially if wearing a mask or visor. Approach it carefully but do mention your son and others are afraid of him. He maybe needs to relax a bit. remind him the children are taking a while to get into routine and may not be as attentive as usual.
Keep it calm and light and don't criticize his teaching.

B-D-P-- · 08-09-2020 2:33pm

I'm not saying he is right, He probably is not. But maybe go in prepared to listen to his side?

Zarco · 08-09-2020 2:38pm

Is it not better to go through the principal and have it on record from the start

greenspurs · 08-09-2020 3:56pm

hi all.
Thanks for all the replies.

He just rang me there before I could reply to all the replies.

I explained the situation, and how my son and a few of his class mates were feeling.
he said he couldn't remember the incident, I said it only happened this day last week , he still said he cant remember

?

I kept it cordial and didn't press it too hard, he was a bit on the defence, but I just wanted to make him aware.

I wouldn't 'go to the principal' yet, in fairness its a complete overreaction to go over the teachers head, instead of just having a conversation with the teacher about it.
'Listen to his side' - he didn't really have a side, he said he couldn't remember it happening!
'Not aware he is shouting' - maybe, but for 2 other kids to tell their parents that they got a fright from the roar?

It wont change his style of teaching, as I know his personality, but maybe he will stop shouting.
If not , then I will be meeting the principal.

Zarco · 08-09-2020 4:09pm

You can speak to the teacher

The longer it goes on the longer the principal is left out of the loop and will be playing catchup with the facts etc.

greenspurs · 08-09-2020 4:48pm

Zarco wrote: »

You can speak to the teacher

The longer it goes on the longer the principal is left out of the loop and will be playing catchup with the facts etc.

Zarco wrote: »

Is it not better to go through the principal and have it on record from the start

Chain of command so to speak.
Why go to the principal straight away and risk the teacher alienating the pupil, or victimising him over it?
Isnt a one to one talk a better, mature way of handling it ?

I thought it would be.

blindside88 · 08-09-2020 4:57pm

greenspurs wrote: »

Chain of command so to speak.
Why go to the principal straight away and risk the teacher alienating the pupil, or victimising him over it?
Isnt a one to one talk a better, mature way of handling it ?

I thought it would be.

I would agree with you here, if you went to the principal the first question would be “have you talked to the teacher about it”

Zarco · 08-09-2020 6:14pm

greenspurs wrote: »

Chain of command so to speak.
Why go to the principal straight away and risk the teacher alienating the pupil, or victimising him over it?
Isnt a one to one talk a better, mature way of handling it ?

I thought it would be.

Maybe you're right if the conversation goes well

If not the principal may have been the better approach

The days of speaking to teachers privately like that are drawing to a close imo

I have the highest regard for teachers it's just the way things are going imo

noodler · 08-09-2020 6:18pm

I'd agree it's a bit OTT to go to the principal because of something your five year old said.

If he doesn't remember it, you always have to be wary of the fact some kids are scared of teachers at that age.

I broke down crying once when I was six because I couldn't answer a wuti was asked in Irish so said nothing which led to the teacher feeling I was being disrespectful.

Looking back now, it's clear to see the teacher didn't do anything wrong.

Teachers will always need some ability to raise their tone when dealing with 20+ kids.

You'd often seen parents or other adults with multiple children in tow having to raise their voice to be heard.

youngblood · 08-09-2020 6:32pm

There's a complaints procedure in every school that many are not be aware of.
This procedure works both way- (Parents to Teachers and Teachers to parents)
If there is an issue with student and teacher, it's the teacher who is contacted
If it cannot be resolved at class level then it is escalated to principal and further if needed

wildwillow · 08-09-2020 6:52pm

noodler wrote: »

I'd agree it's a bit OTT to go to the principal because of something your five year old said.

If he doesn't remember it, you always have to be wary of the fact some kids are scared of teachers at that age.

I broke down crying once when I was six because I couldn't answer a wuti was asked in Irish so said nothing which led to the teacher feeling I was being disrespectful.

Looking back now, it's clear to see the teacher didn't do anything wrong.

Teachers will always need some ability to raise their tone when dealing with 20+ kids.

You'd often seen parents or other adults with multiple children in tow having to raise their voice to be heard.

The child is 11 in fifth class so knows what to expect from teachers.

pooch90 · 08-09-2020 8:04pm

youngblood wrote: »

There's a complaints procedure in every school that many are not be aware of.
This procedure works both way- (Parents to Teachers and Teachers to parents)
If there is an issue with student and teacher, it's the teacher who is contacted
If it cannot be resolved at class level then it is escalated to principal and further if needed

Thank you for sharing this.
You cannot just go straight to the principal. You speak to the teacher first. Any good principal won't entertain you unless you have spoken to the teacher first, unless it's a gross misconduct type complaint.
Hopefully teacher will speak to the boy and smooth things over. No teacher wants a child afraid of them, (even if they are a bit of an *sshole)

byhookorbycrook · 08-09-2020 9:24pm

Teacher here, you must follow the complaints procedure set out by the NPC/INTO -meeting with teacher, keep an account of what was said/agreed. Review the situation is a few weeks time.
Not excusing the teacher, but some voices are louder than others and it may be the case here, especially with masks .
(My principal was able to hear me a full 1/2 mile away when I was at a match. The children told me my voice "lifted them." I clarified with them that this was lifted their spirits , not " lifted us out of it.)

greenspurs · 09-09-2020 7:45am

wildwillow wrote: »

The child is 11 in fifth class so knows what to expect from teachers.

Really ??

Would you shout at your children?
I wouldn't expect a professional educator to have to shout at children ? Its hardly a part of their course while training .

I know from experience, coaching 11-12 year olds that shouting at them is no good at all. You might frighten them into listening to you right at that moment.
But you would have to keep shouting at them then always.

After 2-3 years of teaching youd think he'd know that?

HerrKuehn · 09-09-2020 8:14am

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

you must follow the complaints procedure set out by the NPC/INTO -

Why would a parent need to follow the complaints procedure set out by the NPC/INTO? They are probably not members. I guess I would view something like that as an issue for the teachers manager (principal) to deal with

HerrKuehn · 09-09-2020 10:40am

wildwillow wrote: »

He may not be aware that he is shouting especially if wearing a mask or visor. Approach it carefully but do mention your son and others are afraid of him. He maybe needs to relax a bit. remind him the children are taking a while to get into routine and may not be as attentive as usual.
Keep it calm and light and don't criticize his teaching.

It isn't the parents job to manage the teacher. I mean, I think its good advice, it just should be the principal that is having that talk with them.

wildwillow · 09-09-2020 12:48pm

greenspurs wrote: »

Really ??

Would you shout at your children?
I wouldn't expect a professional educator to have to shout at children ? Its hardly a part of their course while training .

I know from experience, coaching 11-12 year olds that shouting at them is no good at all. You might frighten them into listening to you right at that moment.
But you would have to keep shouting at them then always.

After 2-3 years of teaching youd think he'd know that?

I completely agree.

I was correcting Noodler's post that he was 5years old.

An 11 year old will have had experience of teachers and will know that shouting is out of the ordinary.

noodler · 09-09-2020 1:00pm

wildwillow wrote: »

I completely agree.

I was correcting Noodler's post that he was 5years old.

An 11 year old will have had experience of teachers and will know that shouting is out of the ordinary.

Fair.

Though I think the point remains that some kids can be scared of authority figures at that age.

I don't know what happened but if my parents had run to the principal everyone a teacher had to raise their voice then the school would not have functioned so just be mindful of the teacher's perspective here (i.e. child has told parent about an alledged shouting "incident" that I have no memory of and is now escalating to the principal).

HerrKuehn · 09-09-2020 1:06pm

noodler wrote: »

Fair.

Though I think the point remains that some kids can be scared of authority figures at that age.

I don't know what happened but if my parents had run to the principal everyone a teacher had to raise their voice then the school would not have functioned so just be mindful of the teacher's perspective here (i.e. child has told parent about an alledged shouting "incident" that I have no memory of and is now escalating to the principal).

I would say it is a little bit unusual that 2 children are afraid of going to school because of the "alleged" incident. I would also guess the teacher may be able to remember what happened if the principal asks them about it. There may be a history of this and only the principal would be aware of that.

heldel00 · 09-09-2020 6:45pm

Very occasionally I have to let a shout. This is very different to shouting AT a child.
33 in a class this year. Haven't needed to do it yet but 33 is crowd control.
Few parents can say they have never had to shout to be heard and that is with a small number in comparison to a classroom.

Mrcaramelchoc · 09-09-2020 6:58pm

It's amazing to me this thread was started as...

We have this problem as well. But this male teacher is known for screaming and shouting at the children in his class.he has a reputation for it. Other teachers threaten to send them up to this male teacher and have done it.

My son came home the other day (3 days after going back),stomach in knots because he was shouted at, for not knowing an answer to a question from last term pre covid.

It happens every day.i want to go in there and nail the guy to a cross to be honest.but I'm going to keep a very close eye on it.

So the principal and other teachers know that it happens and for years have done nothing. What would ye do in this case?

Sorry for hijacking the thread.

HerrKuehn · 09-09-2020 7:04pm

heldel00 wrote: »

Very occasionally I have to let a shout. This is very different to shouting AT a child.
33 in a class this year. Haven't needed to do it yet but 33 is crowd control.
Few parents can say they have never had to shout to be heard and that is with a small number in comparison to a classroom.

Yes, shouting because the class is very loud and you want them to quieten down is very different to roaring at a child.

screamer · 09-09-2020 7:10pm

Teacher in the local school here, she terrorised us as kids roaring at the kids and over 30 years later she’s still terrorising the baby and senior infants.
It’s well known in the school what she does, the bigger kids are even brought into her when misbehaving to be roared at. I think it’s absolutely disgraceful but obviously no one is going to do anything about it. Horrible b-Itch she is.

09-09-2020 7:21pm

"John, can you put that water bottle away, please?"

(John continues to fiddle with the water bottle.)

"JOHN!"

You might not remember something like that.

Jb1989 · 09-09-2020 7:22pm

screamer wrote: »

Teacher in the local school here, she terrorised us as kids roaring at the kids and over 30 years later she’s still terrorising the baby and senior infants.
It’s well known in the school what she does, the bigger kids are even brought into her when misbehaving to be roared at. I think it’s absolutely disgraceful but obviously no one is going to do anything about it. Horrible b-Itch she is.

Well the bigger kids shouldn't be missbehaveing at their age, so this particular teacher is a better role model than the bigger kids parents.

readysetgo · 09-09-2020 7:23pm

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Why would a parent need to follow the complaints procedure set out by the NPC/INTO? They are probably not members. I guess I would view something like that as an issue for the teachers manager (principal) to deal with

A lot of mis-information in this thread. The official complaints procedure should be followed, this involves going to the teacher first and then it escalates to principal if not resolved satisfactorily.
This is a legal position to afford the teacher due process. Should the incident be serious enough to be escalated through teacher, principal, board and court then by going outside the agreed complaints procedure it compromises any potential prosecution.
This specific case is easily resolved. Approach the teacher, document the meeting. Give it 2 weeks and if still unhappy then approach principal to mediate at which point i'd imagine there would be an investigation and some classroom management techniques suggested to teacher and then again a time agreed to see if situation resolves...

Mrcaramelchoc · 09-09-2020 7:50pm

screamer wrote: »

Teacher in the local school here, she terrorised us as kids roaring at the kids and over 30 years later she’s still terrorising the baby and senior infants.
It’s well known in the school what she does, the bigger kids are even brought into her when misbehaving to be roared at. I think it’s absolutely disgraceful but obviously no one is going to do anything about it. Horrible b-Itch she is.

Can any teacher in here answer me why this wouldn't be dealt with straight away?

readysetgo · 09-09-2020 7:59pm

Mrcaramelchoc wrote: »

Can any teacher in here answer me why this wouldn't need dealt with straight away?

This should be dealt with straight away of course if kids are 'terrorised', but in the order of the complaints process. i'd guess nobody has probably ever bothered to do it properly as they think it's futile.

Mrcaramelchoc · 09-09-2020 8:12pm

readysetgo wrote: »

This should be dealt with straight away of course if kids are 'terrorised', but in the order of the complaints process. i'd guess nobody has probably ever bothered to do it properly as they think it's futile.

Is it futile? Does it get results?

readysetgo · 09-09-2020 8:24pm

Mrcaramelchoc wrote: »

Is it futile? Does it get results?

it does get results if followed properly. most people dont try cos they listen to former parents who say its futile. The threat of going from the informal steps of 1/2 onto a formal complaint stsge 3 is usually enough

Corca Baiscinn · 09-09-2020 9:29pm

greenspurs wrote: »

Our primary school resumed last Tuesday.
My 11 yr old son in 5th class came home sick last Thursday.

This morning, he was complaining again of it, so my wife questioned as to why, is all ok in school.
So then he said the teacher (male, 30s ) roared at him last Weds over not drinking fast enough/not putting water bottle away , something to do with water bottle, and he was afraid of him.

OP you seem to be taking a very reasonable approach, wanting to deal with the issue and not have your son afraid but not wanting to go in all guns blazing either.

I think its interesting that the shouting was related to the teacher wanting your lad to hurry up, finish his drink and put away the bottle. Not excusing it at all but could it be related to the stress of first week back and all the new protocols and time-consuming procedures re extra hand-washing, cleaning of surfaces etc?

First week back must have been hugely stressful in schools, wondering how or if it would all work out. Teachers, parents and schools would all have been stressed and anxious.

As I said I'm not saying this excuses frightening a pupil but if was a once-off, hopefully your young lad will get over it. However if its nothing to do with the current situation and is the teacher's regular way of operating then it will need to be addressed through the complaint channels.

Connacht15 · 10-09-2020 1:41am

The teacher should not have roared at the child!

However, maybe he was under stress as it is that kind of job.

How times have changed, when I was in 5th Class in St Pats, the Patrickian Primary school in Galway City, The scumbag (now gone to his eternal reward) masquerading as my teacher was a classist cynical violent mucksavage from Tullamore.
He absolutely detested working class kids!
During the course of that year this redneck bastard, who by the way was a dog collar wearer, punched me in my stomach, belted me across my head and face on several ocassions and once pulled my hair with both his hands while roaring like the animal, he was.
One day, this lad arrived in from the other 5th Class, his nickname was Dots, a spot on lad then and now.
The reason why he ended up in our class was the other gobshyte masquerading as the other 5th class teacher (surprisingly, given his insanity, not a dog collar wearer) had an obsession with singing.
The deal was if you could sing in that class, you were fine, if you couldn't, you would get an odd smadder, but were reasonably safe from extreme harm. However, if you could half sing, you were likely to be in that extreme danger.
And it turned out he had attacked Dots severely including kneeing him and this remember is an 11 year old in the spine.
His parents complained and he was placed in the class run by the see you next Tuesday Bastard, I had to suffer, as the lesser of two extreme evils.

Then a few years down the Line in Saint Joseph's Institution, The lovely Patrickian Brothers' Secondary School in Galway City, I encountered the most dangerous psychotic loon, I ever met, masquerading as a teacher, another dog collar wearer, who shoved paper down my throat, enacting a fellatial paedorast fantasy for himself!
That particular see you next Tuesday Bastard according to most who saw him in full flight was the biggest violent nutjob they had ever seen in their entire lives and these are all middle aged men and older now!

greenspurs · 10-09-2020 8:21am

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

OP you seem to be taking a very reasonable approach, wanting to deal with the issue and not have your son afraid but not wanting to go in all guns blazing either.

I think its interesting that the shouting was related to the teacher wanting your lad to hurry up, finish his drink and put away the bottle. Not excusing it at all but could it be related to the stress of first week back and all the new protocols and time-consuming procedures re extra hand-washing, cleaning of surfaces etc?

First week back must have been hugely stressful in schools, wondering how or if it would all work out. Teachers, parents and schools would all have been stressed and anxious.

As I said I'm not saying this excuses frightening a pupil but if was a once-off, hopefully your young lad will get over it. However if its nothing to do with the current situation and is the teacher's regular way of operating then it will need to be addressed through the complaint channels.

Thanks for the reply.

When our lad told us , we were saying to ourselves 'fair enough, teacher just using his voice to hurry them up@, but then when 2 other kids parents told us that their children had said to them that they got such a fright when the Muinteoir shouted at our lad, that they were afraid of him now , we decided to have a word about it.

Thanks to all for the replies.

I still think that going to the teacher first in the correct way, and if anything further happens , I will be on to the principle next.

greenspurs · 10-09-2020 8:30am

Just as an aside.
My daughter is very sporty, and when she was in the same primary school she had a wee issue also.

The school sports day, no medals for each event, you acumalate points and theres overall winners.
So she won most of the events and was delighted.
The day was finishing up early and we asked the principal could we bring the kids (20mins before the normal finishing time) and he said go on.

That was fine, so my daughter went into school the next day, delighted that she was going to get the top athlete, and all her friends were congratulating her.
Then when the teacher read out the results, no mention of my daughter.
My daughter would be a bit quiet/introverted and said nothing , but some of her friends asked why didn't she win.
The teacher said, She lost all her points cos she went home early...… She was gutted !!

We heard about this, and my wife went up and met the teacher , asked her whats the explanation,
The teacher was bamboozled, my wife explained that the Principal gave us (and plenty others) to leave early.
teacher bright red and spluttering...
My wife left it with " I explained to *my daughter that sometimes no matter how hard you try, and do your best, it wont be good enough for some people".... *mic drop

So amazingly, my daughter cam home with "Pupil of the Week". ….

Teachers can be vindictive, and mean, maybe without realising it !!

byhookorbycrook · 10-09-2020 5:00pm

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Why would a parent need to follow the complaints procedure set out by the NPC/INTO? They are probably not members. I guess I would view something like that as an issue for the teachers manager (principal) to deal with

Then you would guess incorrectly.
If this issue needs to be escalated, unless proper procedure has been followed , the entire process may have to start again . Best to do it correctly first time out.

Garibaldi? · 10-09-2020 5:15pm

You know the bit about the other mother messaging your wife about the incident. That's the bit I'd be wary of. Some people love to make a bit of trouble while remaining in the wings themselves and watching the drama unfold. I'd make an appointment with the teacher and take it from there. Usually that settles the matter. The majority of individuals, teachers and parents, are reasonable people.

HerrKuehn · 15-09-2020 6:34pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Then you would guess incorrectly.
If this issue needs to be escalated, unless proper procedure has been followed , the entire process may have to start again . Best to do it correctly first time out.

It seems a bit of a strange way to do it. The parent might be very timid or a bull in a china shop and completely overreact. On the flip side, they might be dealing with the type of teacher that refers to the kids as "little ASBO". That's why I would have thought it is better for the manager to have the talk.

Godeatsboogers · 15-09-2020 6:49pm

I remember when I was in second year and a teacher couldn't handle some back chat he got off a student and really went off on him, in his face roaring thatd he'd batter him if he continued. The very next day the students father was outside the class waiting for the teacher, he tore him to shreds verbally when he turned up, a proper limerick scumbag accent absolutely ripping through him, teacher shat himself, we did nothing during that class, spent the hour doing an essay question, teacher looked shook. Very satisfying even though the teacher was actually alright and the student was extremely disruptive on a regular basis.

byhookorbycrook · 15-09-2020 6:51pm

HerrKuehn wrote: »

It seems a bit of a strange way to do it. The parent might be very timid or a bull in a china shop and completely overreact. On the flip side, they might be dealing with the type of teacher that refers to the kids as "little ASBO". That's why I would have thought it is better for the manager to have the talk.

Believe it or not , there can be a “ little Asbo” in the same way as there are senior Asbos, but the junior versions are very rare .
In any case, the procedure is as outlined .If parent and teacher are interested in keeping the well being of the child central to the discussion, it invariably has a good outcome .
If parent /teacher aren’t satisfied with the meeting, then, you involve the principal.

HerrKuehn · 15-09-2020 7:03pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Believe it or not , there can be a “ little Asbo” in the same way as there are senior Asbos, but the junior versions are very rare .
In any case, the procedure is as outlined .If parent and teacher are interested in keeping the well being of the child central to the discussion, it invariably has a good outcome .
If parent /teacher aren’t satisfied with the meeting, then, you involve the principal.

I think its likely they don't have a very nice home situation. If their teacher sneeringly refers to them as "little asbo", then they have no chance.

byhookorbycrook · 15-09-2020 7:32pm

HerrKuehn wrote: »

I think its likely they don't have a very nice home situation. If their teacher sneeringly refers to them as "little asbo", then they have no chance.

You are stereotyping there . But carry on .
I don’t sneer at children . But again , carry on .

Garibaldi? · 15-09-2020 9:51pm

If you go to the Principal first a satisfactory resolution is less certain. The Principal will re-direct to to the teacher but will also have to mention to the teacher that you went to him/her first, something that most parents don't do. It would be difficult for the teacher not to feel on the back-foot. A chat with the teacher is your best bet. If that doesn't work go to the Head. Occasionally parents do a lot of damage by involving the Principal when there is no need. Principals have a colossal workload and should not have to be involved in every classroom issue. How it's handled in the first place is hugely important.

MeganOgden · 01-11-2020 11:28pm

it depends on the situation, actually

Garibaldi? · 02-11-2020 11:01pm

Shouting is unnecessary and unpleasant.

Teacher shouting at kids

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