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First Grades Case before Courts

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    #2
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Let’s hope she wins anyway. If this doesn’t cost the state anything, they’ll try it again sooner or later, and sooner being more likely.
    And while I have little sympathy for grind schools or anyone who goes to one, this has still been an unjust way to award grades.


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    #3
    Odelay
    Registered Users Posts: 3,795 ✭✭✭Odelay


    RealJohn wrote: »
    Let’s hope she wins anyway. If this doesn’t cost the state anything, they’ll try it again sooner or later, and sooner being more likely.
    And while I have little sympathy for grind schools or anyone who goes to one, this has still been an unjust way to award grades.

    So how should it have been done?


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    #4
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Odelay wrote: »
    So how should it have been done?
    By examination.


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    #5
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,131 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Very poor choice for a test case, I agree, but I suppose those bringing a case were not in touch with each other.

    TBH I would have more sympathy for those who sat a real LC and suffered because of the inflated grades.


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    #6
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    The only good thing about this is that it should be the death knell for teacher based assessment.

    I'd gladly argue that teachers are incapable of doing it correctly for any number of reasons.


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    #7
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,568 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    The only good thing about this is that it should be the death knell for teacher based assessment.

    I'd gladly argue that teachers are incapable of doing it correctly for any number of reasons.

    You completely underestimate the wisdom of the department.

    If teachers are currently incapable of doing it, it just means we need more training, inservices, three letter acronyms etc. to help us understand our profession better :pac:


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    #8
    John Hutton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    Wouldn't students in normal years be able to sue because off the bell curve?


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    #9
    Odelay
    Registered Users Posts: 3,795 ✭✭✭Odelay


    RealJohn wrote: »
    By examination.

    How when they had very little classroom time to prepare? Schools were shut down in March.


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    #10
    tjhook
    Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭tjhook


    John Hutton wrote: »
    Wouldn't students in normal years be able to sue because off the bell curve?


    I don't think so. The bell curve preserves the ranking of each student in the country. The same top X people still get any particular course. It just equalises the overall grades from year to year, so students doing the exam in one year don't have a significant advantage against students in the previous/next year.


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    #11
    Royal Legend
    Registered Users Posts: 2,654 ✭✭✭Royal Legend


    my grandfather went to trinity as did my father and I and my son will go there too, otherwise why am i paying for his private tuition?
    government needs to get a grip with reality, increasing grades from so called Deis schools does not solve any of our problems, while young intelligent students are being stopped by an now unfair system of becoming doctors, solicitors, etc. I hope she wins her case


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    #12
    MFPM
    Registered Users Posts: 3,111 ✭✭✭MFPM


    I have sympathy for the student involved but there's something unsettling about someone who has the wealth and privilege to pay for private education for at least two years and then also use that same wealth and privilege to take a case to the high court to ensure you get into a high achieving career like medicine.

    There are likely to be many students who are disappointed and have fallen short but don't have the where with all to take a court case and will have to find alternative ways to pursue their interest.


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    #13
    MFPM
    Registered Users Posts: 3,111 ✭✭✭MFPM


    Royal Legend wrote: »
    my grandfather went to trinity as did my father and I and my son will go there too, otherwise why am i paying for his private tuition?
    government needs to get a grip with reality, increasing grades from so called Deis schools does not solve any of our problems, while young intelligent students are being stopped by an now unfair system of becoming doctors, solicitors, etc. I hope she wins her case

    otherwise why am i paying for his private tuition?

    You're paying for private tuition to give your child an advantage over most other students who don't have that privilege.
    from so called Deis schools

    'So called'?
    while young intelligent students are being stopped by an now unfair system of becoming doctors, solicitors, etc. I hope she wins her case

    There are many young intelligent students who are stopped by many unfair aspects of life such as structural inequality etc/ Those people who don't have access to the privilege and wealth you clearly have and they don't have the option to take court cases to ensure their privilege is perpetuated.


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    #14
    tjhook
    Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭tjhook


    MFPM wrote: »
    ...there's something unsettling about someone who has the wealth and privilege to pay for private education for at least two years and then also use that same wealth and privilege to take a case to the high court to ensure you get into a high achieving career like medicine


    There would also be something unsettling about designing a grading mechanism that uses their circumstances to pull them down, then denying them any access to appeals through the educational system and denying them access to the legal system.


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    #15
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,568 ✭✭✭Treppen


    RealJohn wrote: »
    Let’s hope she wins anyway. If this doesn’t cost the state anything, they’ll try it again sooner or later, and sooner being more likely.
    And while I have little sympathy for grind schools or anyone who goes to one, this has still been an unjust way to award grades.

    I dunno realjohn I don't think there is a 'type' who go to grind schools. Many parents have to stump up more than 5k per annum in crèche fees , so it's not just super wealthy toffs from D4.


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    #16
    Royal Legend
    Registered Users Posts: 2,654 ✭✭✭Royal Legend


    MFPM wrote: »
    You're paying for private tuition to give your child an advantage over most other students who don't have that privilege.



    'So called'?



    There are many young intelligent students who are stopped by many unfair aspects of life such as structural inequality etc/ Those people who don't have access to the privilege and wealth you clearly have and they don't have the option to take court cases to ensure their privilege is perpetuated.

    Calm down, I was being sarcastic, but the post above your reply sums it up succinctly.
    There is always someone unhappy, but very few would have the money or nous to be able to bring a case to the high court.


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    #17
    MFPM
    Registered Users Posts: 3,111 ✭✭✭MFPM


    Royal Legend wrote: »
    Calm down, I was being sarcastic, but the post above your reply sums it up succinctly.
    There is always someone unhappy, but very few would have the money or nous to be able to bring a case to the high court.

    Sorry! I was in two minds whether to take it seriously.


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    #18
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,568 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Just to note , I didn't start the thread to argue why a student shouldn't be entitled to a school grade because they can afford grinds or whatever.

    I've heard cases of students NOT in fee-charging or grind schools who got hit, so I'd appreciate if we avoided arguing who is more deserving.

    Although I accept part of her argument was school profile.


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    #19
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,568 ✭✭✭Treppen


    spurious wrote: »
    Very poor choice for a test case, I agree, but I suppose those bringing a case were not in touch with each other.

    TBH I would have more sympathy for those who sat a real LC and suffered because of the inflated grades.

    I don't think any student is either more or less deserving of sympathy, be they 2019, 2020 or 2021.


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    #20
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Odelay wrote: »
    How when they had very little classroom time to prepare? Schools were shut down in March.
    1. The same way they always have, combined with the current safety measures.
    2. No, they weren’t.


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    #21
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    John Hutton wrote: »
    Wouldn't students in normal years be able to sue because off the bell curve?
    No.
    Not the same thing at all, as has been explained.


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    #22
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Treppen wrote: »
    I dunno realjohn I don't think there is a 'type' who go to grind schools. Many parents have to stump up more than 5k per annum in crèche fees , so it's not just super wealthy toffs from D4.
    I didn’t say anything about a type. I said I have little sympathy for anyone who goes to a grind school. That’s nothing to do with classism. I don’t have a problem with fee paying schools. I have a problem with any school that treats exam results as the be all and end all of education, and that’s what grind schools do.


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    #23
    shesty
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,894 Mod ✭✭✭✭shesty


    The declarations she is seeking in addition to her own judgement would open legal floodgates.Her lawyers have chosen well.
    Don't envy the judge.


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    #24
    cruizer101
    Registered Users Posts: 3,205 ✭✭✭cruizer101


    I see another case also where a student missed getting into dentistry. In this case she did the LC last year and got 613 points. Dentistry this year is 613 points and she didn't get in. However dentistry is normally 580-590 but rose this year in part from the grade inflation. So she is arguing her points should be increased by 4.4% as that is how much grades have been inflated this year.

    I can definitely see her point.


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    #25
    TPK
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭TPK


    cruizer101 wrote: »
    I see another case also where a student missed getting into dentistry. In this case she did the LC last year and got 613 points. Dentistry this year is 613 points and she didn't get in. However dentistry is normally 580-590 but rose this year in part from the grade inflation. So she is arguing her points should be increased by 4.4% as that is how much grades have been inflated this year.

    I can definitely see her point.

    Was watching this one closely as it resonates with my daughters situation. She was hoping to study medicine. She achieved decent enough marks in her leaving cert in 2019 but came down slightly short in her HPAT exam. She decided to take the year out to work so she could make a contribution to her college fees (we are by no means well off) and resit her HPAT. She scored enough points in her repeat HPAT to comfortably secure a place in NUIG Med in any other year. Then inflated grades caused points to go up to the same level as her points and she lost out on random selection, similar as the case currently in the courts. Very different situation to the cases being taken by the 2020 LC students. The possibly of this happening was flagged to the relevant Ministers, but they were focusing solely on fairness for the 2020 cohort. When they finally accepted there was an issue, they started adding extra places in some courses, but the grade inflation was so out of kilter, most of the extra places went to the 2020 LC students.


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    #26
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    TPK wrote: »
    Was watching this one closely as it resonates with my daughters situation. She was hoping to study medicine. She achieved decent enough marks in her leaving cert in 2019 but came down slightly short in her HPAT exam. She decided to take the year out to work so she could make a contribution to her college fees (we are by no means well off) and resit her HPAT. She scored enough points in her repeat HPAT to comfortably secure a place in NUIG Med in any other year. Then inflated grades caused points to go up to the same level as her points and she lost out on random selection, similar as the case currently in the courts. Very different situation to the cases being taken by the 2020 LC students. The possibly of this happening was flagged to the relevant Ministers, but they were focusing solely on fairness for the 2020 cohort. When they finally accepted there was an issue, they started adding extra places in some courses, but the grade inflation was so out of kilter, most of the extra places went to the 2020 LC students.

    Medicine in Galway is only up 2 points from 2019 according to Qualifax. Medicine courses were actually less of an issue.


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    #27
    TPK
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭TPK


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    Medicine in Galway is only up 2 points from 2019 according to Qualifax. Medicine courses were actually less of an issue.

    Medicine scoring system is different, they use a system of points adjustment whereby each 5 LC points over 550 only counts as one point, this is then added to your HPAT score. In 2017 & 2018 725 points (aggregated) would have secured a place in NUIG med, 2019 726 would have secured a place, this year to safely secure a place you needed potentially 729 due to random selection at 728, this is up to 20 LC points above 2017 & 2018 and up to 15 points over 2019. Add in the saturation of inflated grades were seen more at the upper end of the scale, it is actually just as much of an issue for entry into medicine. The HPAT exam is a great leveler normally as points in that are scored 1 for 1. Even the HPAT couldn't keep the points down.


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    #28
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,568 ✭✭✭Treppen


    TPK wrote: »
    Was watching this one closely as it resonates with my daughters situation. She was hoping to study medicine. She achieved decent enough marks in her leaving cert in 2019 but came down slightly short in her HPAT exam. She decided to take the year out to work so she could make a contribution to her college fees (we are by no means well off) and resit her HPAT. She scored enough points in her repeat HPAT to comfortably secure a place in NUIG Med in any other year. Then inflated grades caused points to go up to the same level as her points and she lost out on random selection, similar as the case currently in the courts. Very different situation to the cases being taken by the 2020 LC students. The possibly of this happening was flagged to the relevant Ministers, but they were focusing solely on fairness for the 2020 cohort. When they finally accepted there was an issue, they started adding extra places in some courses, but the grade inflation was so out of kilter, most of the extra places went to the 2020 LC students.

    Waiting a year always incurs the risk of points changing though!
    For the 2019 cohort to win their case on unfair points inflation, I think it would first have to be shown that there was a way to counter the points inflation that wouldn't have disadvantaged others. Maybe just pull everyone in the 2020 cohort down by 5 points in the CAO !
    If they can cook up Bonus Points for hons maths then the converse should be true.


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    #29
    TPK
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭TPK


    Treppen wrote: »
    Waiting a year always incurs the risk of points changing though!
    For the 2019 cohort to win their case on unfair points inflation, I think it would first have to be shown that there was a way to counter the points inflation that wouldn't have disadvantaged others. Maybe just pull everyone in the 2020 cohort down by 5 points in the CAO !
    If they can cook up Bonus Points for hons maths then the converse should be true.

    True, always a risk holding out. In my daughters case it was something she really wanted and just came up short with HPAT points in 2019, re-sat 2020 HPAT and scored enough points that would have reasonably comfortably got her a place in NUIG in any other year. Inflated grades alone changed that.


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    #30
    Royal Legend
    Registered Users Posts: 2,654 ✭✭✭Royal Legend


    Not sure how true this is, but at the start of the week was told that a bus hire company was bringing workers to a meat factory for the early shift then doing the school run afterwards without any deep clean in between. this was before the news about Dawn Meats came out later in the week.


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