Will lifetime renting in Ireland become viable?

The Student · 17-01-2019 3:35pm

Keatsian wrote: »

But above you said it doesn't matter what is right: "People need to accept life is not fair and you don't get everything you want no matter how right it is that you should get it." So even if we accept that a) taking things from people who are trying to better their lot in life is wrong, and b) that landlords are trying to better their lot in life, we still can't say we shouldn't take property from landlords, because life is unfair and we have to accept that.

Those landlords have tried and succeeded should not have things taken from them. If you try and fail then the market would take if from you automatically.

Keatsian · 17-01-2019 3:54pm

The Student wrote: »

Those landlords have tried and succeeded should not have things taken from them. If you try and fail then the market would take if from you automatically.

If you inherit a house from a parent, you can put it on the rental market and there is no risk of "the market" taking it from you.

The Student · 17-01-2019 4:00pm

Keatsian wrote: »

If you inherit a house from a parent, you can put it on the rental market and there is no risk of "the market" taking it from you.

there is if supply equals demand and tenants have a choice of an alternative accommodation and the person who inherits the property would not get any tenants as they would go elsewhere.

The person inheriting the property would either leave the property vacant or sell it as they would have nobody willing to rent it.

iamtony · 17-01-2019 4:02pm

The Student wrote: »

Well if everybody is doing it then supply would out strip demand. Some people are not capable of having a mortgage either as an owner or as a landlord.

Perhaps if the market was allowed deal with those who fail in respect of the above then we could have a fairer market and a housing sector.

I never said everyone, just lots of people which is true. Market is in the landlords favour at the moment.
I'm not against renters or andlords myself and I may actually be on in a few years I'm on here to rubbish this whole rent till you die nonsense, I don't even know what your trying to get across to be honest?
Are you saying people should rent till the end of their life even if they have a chance to buy?

Ruraldweller56 · 17-01-2019 4:10pm

iamtony wrote: »

I never said everyone, just lots of people which is true. Market is in the landlords favour at the moment.
I'm not against renters or andlords myself and I may actually be on in a few years I'm on here to rubbish this whole rent till you die nonsense, I don't even know what your trying to get across to be honest?
Are you saying people should rent till the end of their life even if they have a chance to buy?

I think the idea of this thread isn't even that.

The OP wants to know if we can have a rental system similar to the ones in mainland Europe.

Which would mean that for the majority of us normal everyday working people that option of ever owning your own place is out.

It's madness and why anyone would actually aspire to that is insane.

There are absolutely problems in this country with regards to accommodation but I think for the most part this is a major city problem.

I don't think that having a full rental market is the best solution.

That being said, it is a crazy situation here that rents are higher than mortgages.

P_1 · 17-01-2019 4:13pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

In many cases, it's the County Councils outbidding the average Irish taxpayer when they are bidding for a house.

What a waste of money for everyone. If the councils want to get into the property game then they should buy land and build, not price regular punters out of the market

Feets · 17-01-2019 4:17pm

Maybe....if more foreigners settle here it could happen
But for the next while...too many small time landlords and peoples notions wpuld curtail this idea.

The Student · 17-01-2019 4:28pm

iamtony wrote: »

I never said everyone, just lots of people which is true. Market is in the landlords favour at the moment.
I'm not against renters or andlords myself and I may actually be on in a few years I'm on here to rubbish this whole rent till you die nonsense, I don't even know what your trying to get across to be honest?
Are you saying people should rent till the end of their life even if they have a chance to buy?

Rent till you die is not nonsense, some people will never be able to own property and they will have to rent for life be it privately or via social housing.

I am saying some people will be forced to rent for life because of circumstances, some people may choose to rent for life for their own personal reasons.

There is a need for rentals and home ownership but landlords are seen as evil.

I as a landlord specifically became a landlord for the long term as it was due to be my pension. However I am now considering selling specifically because of the anti landlord stance and regulations.

I would happily live in my properties, I haven't seen my tenants in years. I treat them as I would like to be treated if roles were reversed. I repair/replace furniture etc as required. Only have three rules, pay the rent when due, don't wreck the place and don't give the neighbours grief.

I would have happily kept the properties for 30 plus years allowing people bring up their families etc. but because of the perceived landlord "power" and the anti landlord media.

Ruraldweller56 · 17-01-2019 4:34pm

The Student wrote: »

Rent till you die is not nonsense, some people will never be able to own property and they will have to rent for life be it privately or via social housing.

I am saying some people will be forced to rent for life because of circumstances, some people may choose to rent for life for their own personal reasons.

There is a need for rentals and home ownership but landlords are seen as evil.

I as a landlord specifically became a landlord for the long term as it was due to be my pension. However I am now considering selling specifically because of the anti landlord stance and regulations.

I would happily live in my properties, I haven't seen my tenants in years. I treat them as I would like to be treated if roles were reversed. I repair/replace furniture etc as required. Only have three rules, pay the rent when due, don't wreck the place and don't give the neighbours grief.

I would have happily kept the properties for 30 plus years allowing people bring up their families etc. but because of the perceived landlord "power" and the anti landlord media.

Exactly. There is a need for both. In these European places it's pretty much all renting from what I can understand.

It's very badly done in this country TBF when you've higher rents than mortgage payments.

irelandrover · 17-01-2019 4:44pm

The Dutch have quite a high rate of home ownership as well actually. Ireland is 68.6 while Holland is 67.8.

There are some advantages to renting later in life. You can downsize the place you live easily enough when needed.
Maintenance of the house is not an issue as it is the responsibility of the landlord.

Ruraldweller56 · 17-01-2019 4:53pm

irelandrover wrote: »

The Dutch have quite a high rate of home ownership as well actually. Ireland is 68.6 while Holland is 67.8.

There are some advantages to renting later in life. You can downsize the place you live easily enough when needed.
Maintenance of the house is not an issue as it is the responsibility of the landlord.

Ah. So this thing about the 'Irish are obsessed with owning their own property' is codswallop. I thought as much.

I agree that there are some advantages to renting but I think in a fair market most people who could would rather buy. It should be a lot cheaper to rent. If right was right.

But people who aspire to own their own home shouldn't be prohibited because of some idea that 'in Europe renting is the norm'.

scamalert · 17-01-2019 4:55pm

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

Exactly. There is a need for both. In these European places it's pretty much all renting from what I can understand.

It's very badly done in this country TBF when you've higher rents than mortgage payments.

Well if you haven lived in other European countries you'd understand that most of them have cities, where reading here in Ireland pretty much every topic revolves around renting in Dublin as majority jobs that pay well and opportunities are squeezed into single city, where you have wast midlands coastal areas with f all opportunities unless ur into farming or some odd factory job for life.

you have to get down to basic logistics and layout before getting anywhere as all the small towns have limited jobs and there's no incentive's been done in decades to change any expansion outside Dublin.

Geuze · 17-01-2019 5:15pm

irelandrover wrote: »

The Dutch have quite a high rate of home ownership as well actually. Ireland is 68.6 while Holland is 67.8.

Yes, Irish rates have fallen back.

Ireland is no longer close to the top of the OO league table.

Ruraldweller56 · 17-01-2019 5:15pm

scamalert wrote: »

Well if you haven lived in other European countries you'd understand that most of them have cities, where reading here in Ireland pretty much every topic revolves around renting in Dublin as majority jobs that pay well and opportunities are squeezed into single city, where you have wast midlands coastal areas with f all opportunities unless ur into farming or some odd factory job for life.

you have to get down to basic logistics and layout before getting anywhere as all the small towns have limited jobs and there's no incentive's been done in decades to change any expansion outside Dublin.

I'd disagree with very little of what you say.

But what I would add, is that people don't need to live in cities. I work in Dublin but live down in the south. It's not something I plan on doing forever and I'll have the price of my house put away soon enough. When I do move back full time I'm sure I'll find some way to make it work. I know I won't be making as much.

There's no way I'd move to Dublin permanently with the situation as it is.

iamtony · 17-01-2019 5:28pm

irelandrover wrote: »

The Dutch have quite a high rate of home ownership as well actually. Ireland is 68.6 while Holland is 67.8.

There are some advantages to renting later in life. You can downsize the place you live easily enough when needed.
Maintenance of the house is not an issue as it is the responsibility of the landlord.

Downsizing when needed and still paying rent albeit a bit cheaper is hardly an advantage compared to being able to sell your purchased house worth 400k or whatever or renting out yourself and allowing you to downsize and make a huge profit.
I'll give you the maintenance one alright as old people's homes do tend to get dilapidated. Although this kinda shows they can't afford the upkeep so probably can't afford rent comfortably in these instances.

steddyeddy · 17-01-2019 5:36pm

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Thats the constant misunderstanding that people make. They are not making a loss.

Im ignoring taxes for simplicity.
If their mortgage payments are 1000 per month and they rent it out for 900 a month they are not making a 100 loss. The 900 goes to paying off the mortgage which increases the landlords equity in the property and their extra 100 is also increasing their equity in the property.

The landlord is at the end of the day still profiting. Its just that their profits are held in the house as an asset.

Thank you. I think there's a sense of entitlement some have. Accidental landlords may need to rent to pay off the mortgage but they're still increasing equity in their property from tenants even if they don't get the full mortgage from a tenant.

Keatsian · 17-01-2019 6:00pm

The Student wrote: »

there is if supply equals demand and tenants have a choice of an alternative accommodation and the person who inherits the property would not get any tenants as they would go elsewhere.

The person inheriting the property would either leave the property vacant or sell it as they would have nobody willing to rent it.

They'd still have the asset. It hasn't been taken from them.

James Brown · 17-01-2019 6:06pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well that's grand for someone like you or on the housing list waiting for free housing but most people don't have that option.

Sign up for your free house sure?

James Brown · 17-01-2019 6:10pm

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

I think one day it will be the case.

I don't know why this is something people want to see happening. Is it just because "muh they do it on mainland Europe why don't we do it here"?

I'd hate for it to become the norm. Spending your entire life paying rent to some faceless conglomerate and we've lunatics here who seem to genuinely think it's a better system.

It's the current fad of 'tough **** go f*** yourself' I see popping up here and there. Corporations and banks get state aid and light taxes to help them make a profit, but a tax payer looking for a dig out to rent or buy a home is a sponger looking for something for nothing, as they story goes.
If you're paying rent, somebody is making a profit off of you. Therefore, if possible you should buy a house over renting every time. The idea that renting is the way to go might suit a young person with no plans but it's not financially or security sound for most especially families.

********
If you had money, and your son was in tough times, would you pay towards your sons rent or build a house and rent it to him at a rate he could afford, with you still getting money back? Would you pay a builder to help the builder build a house and then have your son try buy it at market rates or would you pay to build your own house and sell it to your son at a profit to you but still cheaper than he'd get at market rates? Or would you pay to put your son up in a hotel? These are the option the state currently has for the tax payer suffering the housing crisis.

steddyeddy · 17-01-2019 6:12pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Sign up for your free house sure?

I was referring to the poster who was waiting to inherit off his parents as being in the hand-out category.

scamalert · 17-01-2019 6:26pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

If you're paying rent, somebody is making a profit off of you.

So what your saying landlords should rent at a loss or just to split even, maybe do charity and give it for free, as you say young dont plan yet one using their second head and popping kids here and there are somehow at a loss because they didn't plan it.

Boggles my mind how some think.

Ruraldweller56 · 17-01-2019 6:45pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

It's the current fad of 'tough **** go f*** yourself' I see popping up here and there. Corporations and banks get state aid and light taxes to help them make a profit, but a tax payer looking for a dig out to rent or buy a home is a sponger looking for something for nothing, as they story goes.
If you're paying rent, somebody is making a profit off of you. Therefore, if possible you should buy a house over renting every time. The idea that renting is the way to go might suit a young person with no plans but it's not financially or security sound for most especially families.

********
If you had money, and your son was in tough times, would you pay towards your sons rent or build a house and rent it to him at a rate he could afford, with you still getting money back? Would you pay a builder to help the builder build a house and then have your son try buy it at market rates or would you pay to build your own house and sell it to your son at a profit to you but still cheaper than he'd get at market rates? Or would you pay to put your son up in a hotel? These are the option the state currently has for the tax payer suffering the housing crisis.

I guess in ideal world both options would co exist peacefully. Renting should be an option for people who cannot afford (or maybe don't want to, for whatever reason) to buy. That said in my mind anyway, if the ordinary person wants to buy they certainly shouldn't be prohibited from doing so for no other reason than 'but muh renting is the norm in Europe'. As someone already said - dystopia. To me it's a horrible idea.

That said the situation here where rents are higher than mortgage repayments is a disaster that can't sustain itself. Its the backwards of what it should be.

iamtony · 17-01-2019 7:11pm

scamalert wrote: »

So what your saying landlords should rent at a loss or just to split even, maybe do charity and give it for free, as you say young dont plan yet one using their second head and popping kids here and there are somehow at a loss because they didn't plan it.

Boggles my mind how some think.

no he is saying that even if a tenant is paying 500 a month and your mortgage is 1000 a month your are still making a profit because a landlords mortgage is nothing to do with the rent he receives. When the mortgage is paid the landlord will be able to get back all his invested money by either continuing to rent or selling and getting his money back plus all that money back plus whatever value the house has increased by(assuming it's increased). Boggles my mind how landlords think. If you can't afford to cover your mortgage is the property is empty then you've no business buying a rental property as an investment in my eyes. The rent you receive and the mortgage you pay are two totally different things and shouldn't be put together in a landlords head.

James Brown · 17-01-2019 7:31pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

I was referring to the poster who was waiting to inherit off his parents as being in the hand-out category.

Hardly. I'd love if I was left a house. What's wrong with that? Hardly a hand out.

scamalert wrote: »

So what your saying landlords should rent at a loss or just to split even, maybe do charity and give it for free, as you say young dont plan yet one using their second head and popping kids here and there are somehow at a loss because they didn't plan it.

Boggles my mind how some think.

Hold on there horse. To explain, if you are paying rent, someone is making a profit off you. To explain further, your rent is paying someones mortgage and/or a nice tidy profit. So to rent is you making other people money. If possible, buy. The suggestion was renting is fine over buying.
You comment is your own making.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 17-01-2019 7:39pm

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

That said in my mind anyway, if the ordinary person wants to buy they certainly shouldn't be prohibited from doing so for no other reason than 'but muh renting is the norm in Europe'. As someone already said - dystopia. To me it's a horrible idea.

And it’s not true. Except for Switzerland more houses are owned than rented. Most European house ownership is higher than Ireland, the U.K., or the US. It’s a belief that will never die though.

Ronaldinho · 17-01-2019 7:42pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Hold on there horse. To explain, if you are paying rent, someone is making a profit off you. To explain further, your rent is paying someones mortgage and/or a nice tidy profit. So to rent is you making other people money. If possible, buy. The suggestion was renting is fine over buying.
You comment is your own making.

You're completely ignoring the myriad of risks and expenses associated with buying an investment property, which the investor needs to be compensated for.

There is also a value in the optionality of being able to walk away from a rental as a tenant.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 17-01-2019 7:44pm

Ronaldinho wrote: »

You're completely ignoring the myriad of risks and expenses associated with buying an investment property, which the investor needs to be compensated for.

Not much of a free market if you need to be compensated for your investment. Take the risk yourself.

devlinio · 17-01-2019 7:47pm

Hope not. How will my parents get their high rents then.

Ronaldinho · 17-01-2019 7:59pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Not much of a free market if you need to be compensated for your investment. Take the risk yourself.

Do you not get that the yield or return that an investor demands is dependent on the risk associated with that asset?

We can argue about what a fair rental yields would be and I'd like to see them a damn sight lower, but Matt Barrett is just totally ignoring those risks borne by the landlord.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 17-01-2019 8:01pm

Ronaldinho wrote: »

Do you not get that the yield or return that an investor demands is dependent on the risk associated with that asset?

You said compensated for the risk. Not that the risk is priced in.

We can argue about what a fair rental yields would be and I'd like to see them a damn sight lower, but Matt Barrett is just totally ignoring those risks borne by the landlord.

And those risks are always priced in. Otherwise why wouldn’t people leave their money in the bank?

Ray Palmer · 17-01-2019 8:09pm

What utter BS being spread here.

Mortgages have always been cheaper than renting. That is pretty much the same everywhere.

If you exclude taxes to work out how much a landlord makes off a property based on the fact interest on the mortgage is an allowable expense is completely disingenuous. It isn't even a month since that returned and PRSI and USC still is paid on the income.

1.2% tenants over holding is nonsense. They are the cases brought to RTB. As I said the majority of tenants with hold at least the last months rent. There is no point going to the RTB. They are the last resort. If you want to play silly buggers with stats then it is completely equal to say there are extremely small amount of landlords doing anything wrong. It also requires ignoring the financial risks

I would like to see some report of this alleged 85% of landlords not paying tax even if it is 19 years old.

As for the idea I am unlucky and inexperienced is nonsense I have been renting properties for over 20 years following on from other family members. I certainly have had more tenants than most people have had landlords.

As for inheriting property and renting it out there is inheritance tax which I have had to get a mortgage to pay off.

The reality is REITs will be able to earn more charging less rent than an Irish citizen. They can afford losses small landlords cannot. You are playing right into the hands of big business. There should be more landlord protection due the large risk they take. I know people who lost their own homes because tenants didn't pay rent.

Ray Palmer · 17-01-2019 8:27pm

iamtony wrote: »

no he is saying that even if a tenant is paying 500 a month and your mortgage is 1000 a month your are still making a profit because a landlords mortgage is nothing to do with the rent he receives. When the mortgage is paid the landlord will be able to get back all his invested money by either continuing to rent or selling and getting his money back plus all that money back plus whatever value the house has increased by(assuming it's increased). Boggles my mind how landlords think. If you can't afford to cover your mortgage is the property is empty then you've no business buying a rental property as an investment in my eyes. The rent you receive and the mortgage you pay are two totally different things and shouldn't be put together in a landlords head.

Like a a business where by you don't assume you will not get paid for providing a service. Do you think a shop assume they are going to make no money for over a year and can survive? You don't have a clue on investment. If you think loans for businesses aren't attached to what they charge you are truly clueless and really shouldn't talk on the subject.

iamtony · 17-01-2019 9:03pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Like a a business where by you don't assume you will not get paid for providing a service. Do you think a shop assume they are going to make no money for over a year and can survive? You don't have a clue on investment. If you think loans for businesses aren't attached to what they charge you are truly clueless and really shouldn't talk on the subject.

and round and round we go. Im out lads I can't take any more, peace.

Ray Palmer · 17-01-2019 9:08pm

iamtony wrote: »

and round and round we go. Im out lads I can't take any more, peace.

Grand you are completely clueless. Using capital acquisition as the gauge of earning is nonsense and not economically viable for businesses. To get off the merry go round all you needed to do was understand that is not a sound investment plan.

Will lifetime renting in Ireland become viable?

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