Should Irish be compulsary?

Grudaire · 26-02-2007 9:51pm

Jumping back to the topic of compulsary Irish, It is the first national language, and as such a degrading of the importance of Irish in the school system would nesseciatate also the removan of compulsary English.

In my opinion, as someone who is in the school system which is so bad according to everyone I have no problem with Irish as a subjuct or a language. i personnally feel more opressed learning about the suicidal Sylvia Plath as part of my English course.

To be honest the course isn't great, and it does involve learning more then fluency, but shall we throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Chillwithcian · 26-02-2007 10:12pm

Cliste wrote:

Jumping back to the topic of compulsary Irish, It is the first national language, and as such a degrading of the importance of Irish in the school system would nesseciatate also the removan of compulsary English.

In my opinion, as someone who is in the school system which is so bad according to everyone I have no problem with Irish as a subjuct or a language. i personnally feel more opressed learning about the suicidal Sylvia Plath as part of my English course.

To be honest the course isn't great, and it does involve learning more then fluency, but shall we throw the baby out with the bathwater?

No the baby should be kept in the bath, but the course needs to be revised despratly with more emphis on Oral/tape work if people dont want to FEEL opressed into having to learn it...

Peanut · 27-02-2007 2:42am

Cliste wrote:

... It is the first national language ...

..but only by constitution..

Grudaire · 28-02-2007 3:00pm

Peanut wrote:

..but only by constitution..

That's generally how things work here....

And Chillwithcian what does that mean? Are you pro or anti the language. I'm pro the language, and don't like the subject. The fact is I'm only after my mock Irish exam, and because I didn't learn Stair well enough I've dropped at least 5%

Peanut · 28-02-2007 5:48pm

Cliste wrote:

That's generally how things work here....

Generally, but not exclusively. The reality is that English is the de facto first national language.

Chillwithcian · 28-02-2007 7:42pm

Cliste wrote:

And Chillwithcian what does that mean? Are you pro or anti the language. I'm pro the language, and don't like the subject. The fact is I'm only after my mock Irish exam, and because I didn't learn Stair well enough I've dropped at least 5%

Oh i do love Irish

, but i am against the way its bieng thaught at the moment and im interested to see what peoples views are on this issue in our Irish education and constitution

Grudaire · 01-03-2007 4:32pm

I'm with you on that, there is an unfair emphasis on learning, I heard the Scots I think have a system where there is one course for native speakers, and another for non-native ones, and I think there isn't a severe points difference like with pass.

Peanut I can't argue that Irish is spoken more then English, because it's not, doesn't mean that that's the way that it should be....

Also from a purely leagal point of view (which does matter in Republics such as ours) it does raise questions about why the first national language would have a lesser place in the curriculum then the second national language. There has been no talk of making English the first national language, even though it is clear that is what you want.

gent9662 · 01-03-2007 4:41pm

In my opinion the Irish language should be put on the shelf with Latin in Irish society. It is utterly useless! We the "Irish" are much more different to the Irish people of long ago. Instead of wasting money on teaching Irish and taking up a young persons valuable educational time learning a now dead language, the time should be re-allocated to other languages such as German and French.

We are now in a European era, one which sees strong economic growth and prosperity, Irish is not something that puts money in our pockets! Instead for the vast majority of us, it is wasting taxpayers money from it being:

1. Thought as a subject in schools
2. Grants given to people living in Gaeltacht areas.
3. Signs and useless notices on roads and in hospitals.
4. Reduced cost travel for pupils attending Irish schools.

It's time to throw it in the bin and move forward with a language that can at least benefit Ireland as a nation.

Peanut · 01-03-2007 4:52pm

Cliste wrote:

Peanut I can't argue that Irish is spoken more then English, because it's not, doesn't mean that that's the way that it should be....

Yep, well I guess that is where a lot of people differ in their opinions

Personally I felt learning Irish was a waste of time in school for me, it caused me considerable stress & I could have been using the time to concentrate on other subjects I was better at.

I felt that the compulsory status of it was driven by political or ideological mindsets that failed to recognise the damage that this form of imposed "re-training" could induce. Most other subjects, compulsory or not, could have relevance to some extent in my everyday life, except Irish, and I had no wish to be used & abused as an instrument of the sado-romantic whims of some remote gaelocrat, still bitter and astonished that everyone didn't share his shadowy vision of an all-Irish speaking nation. Times had moved on, I felt, let the people who wanted to learn the language, learn it.

Grudaire · 01-03-2007 5:16pm

Peanut wrote:

I felt that the compulsory status of it was driven by political or ideological mindsets that failed to recognise the damage that this form of imposed "re-training" could induce. Most other subjects, compulsory or not, could have relevance to some extent in my everyday life, except Irish.......

Where are my gaelgoir friends gone?! I'll try and deal with.. some of everything.

It sure was driven by politics (as is most things in our country). As for the everything in school having a relevance to some extent please explain to me the relevance of the foolowing:
The Eucharistic congress of 1932
Slyvia Plath
Hydrostatics
Differentiation
Lenz's Law
The list goes on.

It is a fact that there is a lot of redundancy's in our courses. Irish is useful in daily life... If you want it to be. Whatever life path we choose affects wheather or not we use anything that we have learned. I somehow doubt that I shall ever be using my knowlage of nucleus decay in later life. Is it not fair to accnowlage that sucessful business's do happen that are through Irish. Summer Gaeltachts fulfill a demand that the Irish population has to use their national language.

Peanut · 01-03-2007 5:30pm

Cliste wrote:

... As for the everything in school having a relevance to some extent please explain to me the relevance of the foolowing:

Hi Cliste,
Sure, it would be foolish to say that every subject or lesson has to be relevant to be of value. Of course that is not the case. However, the difference is that, for the environment I was in at least, Irish was extremely irrelevant. If you are living in a more Irish-speaking area then of course this may not be the case.

Be that as it may,

Cliste wrote:

The Eucharistic congress of 1932
Slyvia Plath
Hydrostatics
Differentiation
Lenz's Law

-No idea!, never did this, no interest
-It's part of English comprehension so is not relevant as such in itself, except as a method for learning
-Didn't do physics, but any basic science subject can help extend understanding of the natural world
-Understanding the rate of change of a factor is relevant to an enormous amount of things
- again, didn't do physics..(but at least I had the choice in this!!!)

Cliste wrote:

It is a fact that there is a lot of redundancy's in our courses. Irish is useful in daily life... If you want it to be.

And what if you don't?

Cliste wrote:

... Is it not fair to accnowlage that sucessful business's do happen that are through Irish. Summer Gaeltachts fulfill a demand that the Irish population has to use their national language.

Sure, but that is only a tiny tiny tiny amount compared to all other activity, business or otherwise, that is done in English. Like, infitesimally small.
Let businesses or anyone else conduct their operations through Irish if they wish to do so, but let's not pretend that we should in fact mandate them to do so.

gent9662 · 01-03-2007 5:44pm

Cliste wrote:

It sure was driven by politics (as is most things in our country). As for the everything in school having a relevance to some extent please explain to me the relevance of the foolowing:
The Eucharistic congress of 1932
Slyvia Plath
Hydrostatics
Differentiation
Lenz's Law
"IRISH"
The list goes on.

It is a fact that there is a lot of redundancy's in our courses. Irish is useful in daily life... If you want it to be. Whatever life path we choose affects wheather or not we use anything that we have learned. I somehow doubt that I shall ever be using my knowlage of nucleus decay in later life. Is it not fair to accnowlage that sucessful business's do happen that are through Irish. Summer Gaeltachts fulfill a demand that the Irish population has to use their national language.

Irish was important, but in today's society people travel more than ever before. Irish is by means important. A living, family and money are the things that drive people now, by all means have Irish, but put it on the end of that list. There are probably more polish people in ireland speaking polish than there are irish native speakers!

Answer me a question! Why are the Amercians not speaking Native Indian, and the French speaking Galeic?

Irish should be put in the same bracket as learning a musical instrument or wood work, in Irish education!

Grudaire · 01-03-2007 5:47pm

Peanut wrote:

And what if you don't?

And I don't want to learn English, turn this around for a second and apply it to English.

Fair enough many of those examples arn't in compulsary subjects, But again the relevance of any of the English course?

And at least you know what differentiation is, thought the long word might scare you!

Sorry just to get back to dclains point of this being a european era. Part of that is the celebration of different cultures, it has moved away from the American style of one single culture for all.

Grudaire · 01-03-2007 5:50pm

Sorry you jumped in pre my posting... There are more Polish speakers because they apparently care about their culture, about their heritage, unlike most Irish. The French are speacking french, the Basce (spl?) speak their own language, and the Flemish theirs... None are third world countries either.

gent9662 · 01-03-2007 6:02pm

Cliste thanks for that....

I would deem Irish as a nice to have, as I said like being able to use your hands to make something or singng a song.

Would you sacrifice your chance of employment and travel just to be fluent in Irish?
The Polish have their own language...however they are a population of over 38 million people! How many native Irish speakers are there? For the size we are, there is too much made of Irish! Instead we should be saying to the world...Here we are! Skilled Workforce, able to speak French, German, Spanish, willing to work and willing to assimilate into your language!

Why did so many people emmigrate to America? Knowing English was a main reason..what good was irish to them? Would they have been better off staying in ireland speaking Irish and dying of hunger?

The EU made a big mistake by making Irish an official language. The 30 year olds of this Ireland have been brought up to hate it..and by this hatred they will be the ones that will send it into the history books like the ancient Aramaic language!

GerryRyan · 01-03-2007 6:50pm

Elmo wrote:

It's part of your education for educations sake.

Just after sitting my Irish mock today. It hits you how pointless the subject is when you get to the Stair na Gaeilge section of the paper.

Don't get me wrong - as languages go I actually like it, if it wasn't on the course I'd still make an attemp to use it, by they should really take a new approach to teaching/examining it.

PurpleFistMixer · 01-03-2007 7:30pm

But Stair is one of the more interesting parts of the course! : )

Peanut · 01-03-2007 8:06pm

Cliste wrote:

And I don't want to learn English, turn this around for a second and apply it to English.

You know Cliste, I agree with you on this

But not for any reason like "Irish is the offical language" or whatever.
I think if Sylvia Plath p*sses you off that much, then you should be doing something more productive, whether that's another part of the English course or not.

I agree that if you are in an Irish speaking environment, then it doesn't make sense to be compelled to learn obscure English novels etc.

I would be happy that certain parts of English courses could be made non-compulsory. There would still be a huge social incentive to learn it though, so nothing would be lost.

re: the original topic, here's a suggestion - simply cut the amount of time teaching lower level Irish in half.

If the world doesn't fall apart, then follow this up in time by creating a more granular approach to all subjects in school - make it possible to spend a small amount of time learning the basics of languages, then let the student decide what parts of each language to learn. Let's not just lump it into one homogenous block and call it an "Irish" or "English" class.

This requires some braveness & energy on behalf of the powers that be, so I don't see it happening very soon, however I believe eventually things will go in this direction.

Grudaire · 04-03-2007 7:41pm

Sounds more like suicide for Bertie and the boys... and Enda.....
Did you know that there is supposed to be an Oral for junior cert german, it's just no teachers agreed to test it... Think they'll agree with that?!?

tolosenc · 04-03-2007 8:54pm

What is with this militant anti-Gaeilge stance that some people are taking?

dclane wrote:

Would you sacrifice your chance of employment and travel just to be fluent in Irish?

AND

by all means have Irish, but put it on the end of that list

What does being fluent as Gaeilge have to do with being unemployed?
Why at the end of the list? Why is it not as important as family? It's who you are.

dclane wrote:

Answer me a question! Why are the Amercians not speaking Native Indian, and the French speaking Galeic?

Simple -
Most Americans are European settlers. They're not Indians, and Native american languages have nothing to do with them

I think you'll find a lot of French speak their ethnic minority language, eg Occitan, Breton and Basque.

I'm a sixth year student. I love the language. What was done to some of you to turn you against it? Or is it just jealousy/discontent because you are not good at it?

Peanut · 04-03-2007 9:30pm

cliste wrote:

Sounds more like suicide for Bertie and the boys... and Enda.....

Unfortunately the chances of either of those Buffoons doing something useful for reasons other than political PR are slim I think.

obl wrote:

What is with this militant anti-Gaeilge stance that some people are taking?

A reaction against the militant pro-Gaeilge stance most likely!

obl wrote:

I'm a sixth year student. I love the language. What was done to some of you to turn you against it? Or is it just jealousy/discontent because you are not good at it?

lol

/Andy\ · 13-03-2007 8:25am

dclane wrote:

Would you sacrifice your chance of employment and travel just to be fluent in Irish?
The Polish have their own language...however they are a population of over 38 million people! How many native Irish speakers are there? For the size we are, there is too much made of Irish! Instead we should be saying to the world...Here we are! Skilled Workforce, able to speak French, German, Spanish, willing to work and willing to assimilate into your language!

Lol! First of all- gaelgóirí are now apparently jobless and banned from travel?! Where I'm from, in West Dublin, the best schools, that turn out the students most likely to continue on to further education and as a result- better jobs, are Gaelscoileanna.

Second of all, you're suggesting that because we are a small country we should eat up others (French, German, Spanish you mention) cultures and assimilate into their languages?! What rubbish! Are we slaves of some kind? Why should we have insecurities of expressing our own language and culture?
You certainly come across as someone ashamed of where they're from, perhaps you should move?

This whole thread has become an excuse for the anti-Irish brigade to vent their small-minded and ill informed views. If you hate the language so much, why are you on this forum in the first place? Did y'all specifically click on the link to the Gaeilge forum hoping for a thread that would enable you to vent your unwanted hatred? I find cricket boring, but I'm not about to go to the cricket forum to mouth off!

Ace7 · 16-08-2008 6:23pm

Lets discuss Welsh language revival. They have had a lot more success there, but nobody really explains why.

I've heard the Welsh wanted to revive it, and thus it has. Well, why do they want to revive it and the Irish don't?

Are the Welsh stupid to revive it and for wanting to revive it? Of what use is Welsh? Seems like many of the knocks against Irish could also be said about Welsh. Welsh is not an international language. Is reviving Welsh a waste of tax payers money?

Welsh is not spoken outside Wales, right? Like Irish, Welsh is more a 'rural' language rather than the language of industry/business/commerce. English is a much more useful language and more widely spoken than Welsh. etc. etc.

Maybe Welsh is taught better than Irish is. But I've heard that for English speakers, Welsh - like Irish - is still a hard language to learn.

How many school children will use Welsh after leaving school? Maybe not that many, same as with Irish. Maybe some view Welsh as a waste of time. But Welsh has somehow been revived.

I've heard that Welsh hadn't died out as much as Irish has, and so that made it easier to revive. But is that the whole story, or are there other reasons?

I'm sure there are some in Wales who view Welsh as an old, poor, backward, farming, type language. So it has had its opponents and obstacles. And yet it has still been revived. So whats been the difference between Wales and Ireland, between the Welsh people and the Irish people, and between the two celtic languages?

I think it would be great if a lot of people weighed in with their thoughts on this. Thanks.

Burial · 19-08-2008 4:49pm

I think Irish should be compulsory upto a point. English shouldn't be compulsory upto a point too. Why must I do shakespeare when I'll never need it? Same goes for Pég! Anyway all Irish people should learn to read and write as Ghaeilge and then have the choice to continue or not. I love Irish, but not being able to do it everyday and lack of people interested really disappointed me. I mean I spoke Irish to get me and my friends out of a pickle before! It's also a great laugh to have so you can talk about people and they'll never know! Irish should be thought to read and write but then it's upto the person to continue after that. This is what makes me Irish, the fact that I know when I go abroad and meet an Irish person, we can speak Irish to each other. That's the way it should be.

However reality and what I'd like are two different things. Irish shoudn't die as a language, however it shouldn't be forced down peoples throats either. I have no idea how the government will improve the Irish situation but I think it should.

Elmo · 19-08-2008 5:04pm

I probable said this before but getting rid of complusory Irish will lead to getting rid of complusory English and Maths. I don't think its that big a deal to continue to learn Irish.

I noted in the Des Bishop show that many of the people he spoke to never get the chance to speak Irish rather then a lack of willingness to use the language hence they have lost alot of the lanuage.

But I've heard that for English speakers, Welsh - like Irish - is still a hard language to learn.

All lanuages are difficult to learn. English is the most difficult. But Irish in Leaving Cert is taught as a fluent language not a beginners language. The failure of the system is with National Schools. Hence by the time we go to Secondary school we have a tendancy to think that other European Lanuages are easier yet they all are taught as beginner languages so really they should be alot easier then Irish.

I think it is important to continue with Irish, English and Maths as compulsory subects.

Lets face it there are plenty of subjects in College that you will never use, some people even do Irish, english and maths in college. They become Teachers, think of the teachers.

Peanut · 19-08-2008 10:36pm

Won't somebody please think of the children ?

Some people are just not good at languages. It just seems to be a waste of time to force them to learn more than one language when they will get little to no benefit out of it, and could be studying something else that they have a real interest or talent in.

dlofnep · 20-08-2008 9:33pm

I think it should, but if made optional for LC - I think English should be too.

Should Irish be compulsary?

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