Should we let old cultures and langauges die out?

29-10-2015 12:31am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The thought of the entire world speaking one language is amazing.

The thought of the entire world speaking one language is appalling.

It almost certainly won't happen 'n'all'n'anyways. English is already starting to fragment at the edges at the very moment it is reaching its peak as a global language. As soon as it genuinely achieves that status, English will evolve into something else - multiple other languages and dialects that are based on a core structure like the English language, but which borrow heavily from local languages, idioms and rules of syntax and grammar.

Iwasfrozen · 29-10-2015 12:36am

Deleted User wrote: »

The thought of the entire world speaking one language is appalling.

It almost certainly won't happen 'n'all'n'anyways. English is already starting to fragment at the edges at the very moment it is reaching its peak as a global language. As soon as it genuinely achieves that status, English will evolve into something else - multiple other languages and dialects that are based on a core structure like the English language, but which borrow heavily from local languages, idioms and rules of syntax and grammar.

Barring a worldwide catastrophe that reverses globalization why would that happen? The world is becoming more connected and more people are learning English as a second language. This isn't Rome, barring Yellowstone blowing up there's no reason to expect English to fragment.

29-10-2015 12:41am

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Corporal punishment as in grown men and women inflicting violence upon children was being practiced on children in Courtenay Boys National School at leat until 1987

But only while they were teaching Irish. Amirite?

FloatingVoter wrote: »

and St. Itas Secondary School, Newcastle West up until 1992.

But only the Irish teachers, surely?

FloatingVoter wrote: »

I bite back...

Jaysus, in that case I'm not surprised. If we'd bitten our teachers in the Christian Brothers in the 1970s they'd have kicked the ****e out of us.

Wibbs · 29-10-2015 12:47am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Do you consider Irish a gutteral language? More so than English or German?

Not at all, softer if anything, especially compared to German.

Iwasfrozen · 29-10-2015 12:52am

Wibbs wrote: »

Not at all, softer if anything, especially compared to German.

German I would agree with, English I just don't see. Maybe I don't notice the sound of my own language but I don't see English as guttural at all.

Mountainsandh · 29-10-2015 12:59am

I'm French, and I hear Irish and German as guttural, but not English (at all). Irish less than German, not by much though.

osarusan · 29-10-2015 1:02am

Accents like the Liverpool one do have some guttural sounds in them, especially where the 'k' becomes a more sibilant 'ch' (like - laich, for example).

Iwasfrozen · 29-10-2015 1:10am

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I'm French, and I hear Irish and German as guttural, but not English (at all). Irish less than German, not by much though.

Apart from specific accents as osarusan points out I can't think of one guttural English word. I'm sure there are some but they aren't very common, equally we don't have rolling "r" sounds.

Perhaps English's simple and soft pronunciation is in part contributing to it's success as a world language.

29-10-2015 1:12am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Barring a worldwide catastrophe that reverses globalization why would that happen?

Why wouldn't it happen? Singlish demonstrates how effectively and quickly people in an area can blend English with whatever else they have locally to develop a new dialect of their own. If that's what a small population can do in one part of the world in 50 years, it doesn't take a lot to work out what multiple populations with a wide variety of linguistic backgrounds can potentially do across the world over a period of a couple of hundred years.

And in any case, English isn't some kind of linguistic perfection that the world is striving towards; it's just a staging post on the way to somewhere else. Latin was once the dominant language in the known world. French had its day in the sun as the world's main diplomatic language for a time, and even Spanish and Portuguese have had moments when they could have become the world's global languages.

The only reason why English has the status that it has is because the last two great world empires were both English-speaking. They have dominated the world scene for about the last two hundred years - by the way, that's about one-thousandth of the time for which modern humans have lived on Earth. And that period of empire is coming to an end. The next great empire will not be an English-speaking one, and it will last for a lot longer than the British Empire and the Pax Americana. Whether that will be a cultural dominance based on English or Chinese is up for debate, but if the history of the Han Chinese to date is anything to go by, then the English language will "live in interesting times" in the future. That's a good long way off yet, of course. Latin hung around for a long time after the fall of the Roman Empire. Spanish and Portuguese are still influential languages in today's English-dominated world even though their empires are long gone. So the decline of English, if it happens, will take a long time. But I believe it will decline, and the experience of history gives that view credibility.

And anyway, it hardly matters in the long run. Even if the English language stays at the top of the world's cultural hit parade, it'll evolve so much that future speakers of the language will not be able to understand the English of the early 21st century without the help of translators and scholars.

osarusan · 29-10-2015 1:17am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Perhaps English's simple and soft pronunciation is in part contributing to it's success as a world language.

Englah pronunciation is far from simple for people learning it as a foreign language (especially from Asia) and the alphabet is an atrocious guide to pronunciation.

Its success as a world language has far far more to do with the advantages that speaking English brings, be they political, financial, etc.

Mountainsandh · 29-10-2015 1:19am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Apart from specific accents as osarusan points out I can't think of one guttural English word. I'm sure there are some but they aren't very common, equally we don't have rolling "r" sounds.

Perhaps English's simple and soft pronunciation is in part contributing to it's success as a world language.

The very odd time I hear guttural sounds in English is with specific speakers and specific accents : the Scottish accents at times (with some speakers), the odd Irish accents ... There is a place not too far from where I live where some more guttural French sounds can clearly be heard in older folks' speech*. It's mad ! (Kilr(guttural French R

)ossanty co Waterford).

*remnants of Anglo-Norman invasion, not just random accent I believe.

Iwasfrozen · 29-10-2015 1:26am

Deleted User wrote: »

Why wouldn't it happen? Singlish demonstrates how effectively and quickly people in an area can blend English with whatever else they have locally to develop a new dialect of their own. If that's what a small population can do in one part of the world in 50 years, it doesn't take a lot to work out what multiple populations with a wide variety of linguistic backgrounds can potentially do across the world over a period of a couple of hundred years.

And in any case, English isn't some kind of linguistic perfection that the world is striving towards; it's just a staging post on the way to somewhere else. Latin was once the dominant language in the known world. French had its day in the sun as the world's main diplomatic language for a time, and even Spanish and Portuguese have had moments when they could have become the world's global languages.

The only reason why English has the status that it has is because the last two great world empires were both English-speaking. They have dominated the world scene for about the last two hundred years - by the way, that's about one-thousandth of the time for which modern humans have lived on Earth. And that period of empire is coming to an end. The next great empire will not be an English-speaking one, and it will last for a lot longer than the British Empire and the Pax Americana. Whether that will be a cultural dominance based on English or Chinese is up for debate, but if the history of the Han Chinese to date is anything to go by, then the English language will "live in interesting times" in the future. That's a good long way off yet, of course. Latin hung around for a long time after the fall of the Roman Empire. Spanish and Portuguese are still influential languages in today's English-dominated world even though their empires are long gone. So the decline of English, if it happens, will take a long time. But I believe it will decline, and the experience of history gives that view credibility.

And anyway, it hardly matters in the long run. Even if the English language stays at the top of the world's cultural hit parade, it'll evolve so much that future speakers of the language will not be able to understand the English of the early 21st century without the help of translators and scholars.

Why wouldn't English fragment? The growing force of globalization, increasingly efficient forms of communication and transportation are making the world smaller than it used to be. Singlish is an exception and largely a result of English becoming the majority language amongst a group of people who had no or limited formal education in the language. English today is the most learned language in the world and people aren't learning a dialect of English, actually one of the most amazing aspects of English is that it has no dialects, despite being the native language of hundreds of millions of people.

Chinese will never be a world language lingua franca, as to why I direct you to Wibbs earlier post who put it more eloquently than I can but essentially Chinese is not largely learned outside China, has no historical presence outside China, has an overly complex writing system the Chinese have unsuccessfully tried to simplify and is a tonal language, the accent put on words can change their entire meaning, hardly ideal when two heavily accented non native speakers are trying to communicate.

The great thing about English is that it's constantly evolving but stays one dialect, that's one of it's key strengths. The world's most diverse language has historically absorbed words and concepts from other cultures to strengthen its lexicon and continues to do so to this day.

TheLastMohican · 29-10-2015 1:31am

Are not most wars caused by culture clashes?

Eugene Norman · 29-10-2015 1:39am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Perhaps when both official languages are represented on signs in gaeltachts or far more importantly, the English language version of our constitution is given equality with then Irish version we can talk about language equality. From what I can see Irish is being given preferential treatment to my language.

Most signs in most parts of Ireland are English only. All private signs, most public signs. If some parts of the Gaeltacht are irish only I can hardly see how it would cause disquiet to to most pro English language fanatic. Since he doesn't have to visit the Gaeltacht. It's like an English language chauvinist in the US bemoaning the fact that some signs are in Spanish as well as English, and there are areas where some signs are Spanish only.

Iwasfrozen · 29-10-2015 1:42am

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Most signs in most parts of Ireland are English only. All private signs, most public signs. If some parts of the Gaeltacht are irish only I can hardly see how it would cause disquiet to to most pro English language fanatic. Since he doesn't have to visit the Gaeltacht. It's like an English language chauvinist in the US bemoaning the fact that some signs are in Spanish as well as English, and there are areas where some signs are Spanish only.

That's a terrible attitude, Irish speakers don't have to leave the gaeltacht, either we have two equal languages or we don't. Put English translations on Irish signs and far more importantly make the English version of the constitution equal to the Irish version.

Caoimhgh1n · 29-10-2015 1:45am

This is Ireland, and the Gaeltachtaí primarily speak Gaeilge. I don't see why there should be any English there.

Eugene Norman · 29-10-2015 1:46am

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I'm French, and I hear Irish and German as guttural, but not English (at all). Irish less than German, not by much though.

Yes I agree. And I don't find French guttural of course. Nor most Romance languages except some countryish Potuguese.

Russian is guttural to my ears. My Russian neighbours – a couple, both smoke. So they go out on their balcony beside our place a lot. And argue all the time. Anyway I didn't really know them until a few months ago when we were invited over for a dinner party. We got on and I've gone out for a drink with the guy a few times since.

One conversation went like this.

Me: nice girl you have
Him: yes. Lovely.
Me: firey though. A bit like yourself I'd say. Probably have a few rows?
Him: no. She's angel. We never argue.

I also often think Chinese people are arguing when it's probably just a conversation.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 29-10-2015 1:51am

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Most signs in most parts of Ireland are English only. All private signs, most public signs. If some parts of the Gaeltacht are irish only I can hardly see how it would cause disquiet to to most pro English language fanatic. Since he doesn't have to visit the Gaeltacht. It's like an English language chauvinist in the US bemoaning the fact that some signs are in Spanish as well as English, and there are areas where some signs are Spanish only.

Not so much the "pro English language fanatic" (whatever that means) but the tourist who has a map in one langauge and roadsigns in another. They do visit the Gaeltacht.

Curious to know what parts of the US you are refering to.

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

This is Ireland, and the Gaeltachtaí primarily speak Gaeilge. I don't see why there should be any English there.

So if we assume this to be correct and flip it - i.e. the areas where people primarily speak English so I don't see why theer should be any Irish there - is this acceptable?

And you answer better not include the word "constitution" because that works both ways.

Caoimhgh1n · 29-10-2015 1:53am

English is a foreign language, I see no reason why it should be used. I would be more than happy without English signage.

Eugene Norman · 29-10-2015 1:53am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's a terrible attitude, Irish speakers don't have to leave the gaeltacht, either we have two equal languages or we don't. Put English translations on Irish signs and far more importantly make the English version of the constitution equal to the Irish version.

You are quite the fascist. You have English language signs (almost exclusively) in your part of Ireland. Private and public. You have 100's of TV channels all English. Every magazine, every book, every billboard. English. A few public signs in what's left of Ireland that doesn't conform to English hegemony and you act like you are some kind of victim.

It's hilarious ( but used to be fairly common amongst extreme right wing English language chauvinists. English men who hate the existence of Welsh or Gaelic. Canadian right wingers who hate French or First Nation languages, right wing New Zealanders who hate Maori. Although outside Ireland most of this is dying out).

Eugene Norman · 29-10-2015 1:54am

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

English is a foreign language, I see no reason why it should be used. I would be more than happy without English signage.

And that's the other extreme.

Iwasfrozen · 29-10-2015 1:56am

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

English is a foreign language, I see no reason why it should be used. I would be more than happy without English signage.

Heh, not going to happen.

Eugene Norman wrote: »

You are quite the fascist. You have English language signs (almost exclusively) in your part of Ireland. Private and public. You have 100's of TV channels all English. Every magazine, every book, every billboard. English. A few public signs in what's left of Ireland that doesn't conform to English hegemony and you act like you are some kind of victim.

It's hilarious ( but used to be fairly common amongst extreme right wing English language chauvinists. English men who hate the existence of Welsh or Gaelic. Canadian right wingers who hate French or First Nation languages, right wing New Zealanders who hate Maori. Although outside Ireland most of this is dying out).

All public road signs in my part of the country are duel language. It's hardly fascist to expect the same treatment for my language. It's also hardly fascist to ask that the English language version of the constitution be given equality with the Irish version.

Caoimhgh1n · 29-10-2015 1:57am

I never said it was going to happen, and what makes you so sure? Who's to say Irish will nothave a major comeback in years to come?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 29-10-2015 1:58am

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

English is a foreign language, I see no reason why it should be used. I would be more than happy without English signage.

Contradicts your earlier statement where you were very happy with signage in the lanaguge spoken by the locale.

Caoimhgh1n · 29-10-2015 1:59am

As it is this countries national language. What's not to understand?

Iwasfrozen · 29-10-2015 2:01am

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

I never said it was going to happen, and what makes you so sure? Who's to say Irish will nothave a major comeback in years to come?

Every statistic, shred of evidence and iota of life experience.

29-10-2015 2:02am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why wouldn't English fragment? The growing force of globalization, increasingly efficient forms of communication and transportation are making the world smaller than it used to be. Singlish is an exception and largely a result of English becoming the majority language amongst a group of people who had no or limited formal education in the language. English today is the most learned language in the world and people aren't learning a dialect of English, actually one of the most amazing aspects of English is that it has no dialects, despite being the native language of hundreds of millions of people.

Chinese will never be a world language lingua franca, as to why I direct you to Wibbs earlier post who put it more eloquently than I can but essentially Chinese is not largely learned outside China, has no historical presence outside China, has an overly complex writing system the Chinese have unsuccessfully tried to simplify and is a tonal language, the accent put on words can change their entire meaning, hardly ideal when two heavily accented non native speakers are trying to communicate.

The great thing about English is that it's constantly evolving but stays one dialect, that's one of it's key strengths. The world's most diverse language has historically absorbed words and concepts from other cultures to strengthen its lexicon and continues to do so to this day.

Your post above about whether English has some inbuilt advantage in its pronunciation is a wonderful (and kinda poignant) illustration of how you view the matter. It's your language and you can't imagine the world any other way. But things will be some other way, sooner or later. History demonstrates that.

China's history over three thousand years is essentially the story of the expansion - at varying rates over the centuries - of the Han Chinese. From time to time during that history the Han co-existed with neighbouring peoples and neighbouring languages; but ultimately those other languages were squeezed out or absorbed to become part of the expansion. China is about to become the world's biggest economy, and it will inevitably go on to become the world's dominant economy. With that will come a huge expansion in China's "soft power" and a huge expansion in its cultural projection across the world - including its language, in all likelihood.

But unlike previous dominant cultures, China's will be the biggest the world has ever seen - the Han make up 19% of the world's population. So when China becomes the biggest kid in the playground in cultural and economic terms, there is every reason to believe it will stay that way for a much longer period than the British Empire and the Pax Americana, for the simple reason that in relative terms China will be so much bigger than either Britain or America.

There is, of course, some possibility that China might decide that its cultural projection around the world will be through the medium of English rather than Chinese. But history shows that dominant cultures haven't tended to do things like that - in fact, not adopting foreign languages was a very good reason why they became dominant cultures. The Middle Kingdom has a long and proud history of being different, and a deeply-held belief in its own cultural exceptionalism and uniqueness. Moreover, China has a strong cultural memory of being humiliated by Westerners and English speakers. So whatever motivation the Chinese might have right now to develop their use of English, that motivation is likely to decline rapidly as China takes its place as the world's leading economy.

It's naive to believe that English is a leading world language because of some inherent attributes of the language. It is a leading language because of the economic and political power of the British in the 19th century and the Americans after 1914, and because of their insistence on doing business in their language rather than the languages of others. The Chinese will have the economic and political power in the future. Whether they match that with cultural certainty and insistence cannot be 100% guaranteed, but history suggests that it is very likely to be the case.

But you and I have no need to worry; the age of decline of our native English is some way off just yet.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 29-10-2015 2:03am

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

As it is this country's national languages. What's not to understand?

Fyp.

29-10-2015 2:04am

Eugene Norman wrote: »

It's hilarious ( but used to be fairly common amongst extreme right wing English language chauvinists. English men who hate the existence of Welsh or Gaelic. Canadian right wingers who hate French or First Nation languages, right wing New Zealanders who hate Maori. Although outside Ireland most of this is dying out).

Eugene Norman wrote: »

And that's the other extreme.

I wasn't wrong, eh?

Caoimhgh1n · 29-10-2015 2:06am

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Fyp.

Cad é Fyp?, le do thoil.

Eugene Norman · 29-10-2015 2:06am

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Not so much the "pro English language fanatic" (whatever that means) but the tourist who has a map in one langauge and roadsigns in another. They do visit the Gaeltacht.

I've defined pro English language fanatics quite a few times in this thread. Hint: if you live in a country where one language is hegemonic (and world dominant to boot, worrying about signs in a tiny sliver of that country is fanaticism).

Curious to know what parts of the US you are refering to.

Plenty of signage in California has Spanish. Not unsurprisingly this causes English language only chauvinists much angst. As does French in Canada. Or First Nations languages in both.

So if we assume this to be correct and flip it - i.e. the areas where people primarily speak English so I don't see why theer should be any Irish there - is this acceptable?

And you answer better not include the word "constitution" because that works both ways.

Because there are of course plenty of signs in the Gaeltacht that are in English. Private signs etc. Probably there are plenty of public signs too.

In Dublin and outside the Gaeltacht there are also plenty of signs that are English only. All private signs. Many public signs.

The existence or non existence of your preferred language shouldn't really upset you that much, particularly if you are in the position of being the majority language.

darkpagandeath · 29-10-2015 2:07am

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

As it is this countries national language. What's not to understand?

One of them....

Caoimhgh1n · 29-10-2015 2:10am

darkpagandeath wrote: »

One of them....

The language of Ireland is Irish. I'm not getting into a history lesson, but we all know how English got here. The language of the Irish, is Gaeilge. I fully understand English is more commonly spoken, but that doesn't make it our national language. It still holds status though.

Iwasfrozen · 29-10-2015 2:13am

Deleted User wrote: »

Your post above about whether English has some inbuilt advantage in its pronunciation is a wonderful (and kinda poignant) illustration of how you view the matter. It's your language and you can't imagine the world any other way. But things will be some other way, sooner or later. History demonstrates that.

China's history over three thousand years is essentially the story of the expansion - at varying rates over the centuries - of the Han Chinese. From time to time during that history the Han co-existed with neighbouring peoples and neighbouring languages; but ultimately those other languages were squeezed out or absorbed to become part of the expansion. China is about to become the world's biggest economy, and it will inevitably go on to become the world's dominant economy. With that will come a huge expansion in China's "soft power" and a huge expansion in its cultural projection across the world - including its language, in all likelihood.

But unlike previous dominant cultures, China's will be the biggest the world has ever seen - the Han make up 19% of the world's population. So when China becomes the biggest kid in the playground in cultural and economic terms, there is every reason to believe it will stay that way for a much longer period than the British Empire and the Pax Americana, for the simple reason that in relative terms China will be so much bigger than either Britain or America.

There is, of course, some possibility that China might decide that its cultural projection around the world will be through the medium of English rather than Chinese. But history shows that dominant cultures haven't tended to do things like that - in fact, not adopting foreign languages was a very good reason why they became dominant cultures. The Middle Kingdom has a long and proud history of being different, and a deeply-held belief in its own cultural exceptionalism and uniqueness. Moreover, China has a strong cultural memory of being humiliated by Westerners and English speakers. So whatever motivation the Chinese might have right now to develop their use of English, that motivation is likely to decline rapidly as China takes its place as the world's leading economy.

It's naive to believe that English is a leading world language because of some inherent attributes of the language. It is a leading language because of the economic and political power of the British in the 19th century and the Americans after 1914, and because of their insistence on doing business in their language rather than the languages of others. The Chinese will have the economic and political power in the future. Whether they match that with cultural certainty and insistence cannot be 100% guaranteed, but history suggests that it is very likely to be the case.

But you and I have no need to worry; the age of decline of our native English is some way off just yet.

Not at all, I'm more than aware language evolves and changes over time, English faster than most. Throughout its history English has absorbed terminology and culture of many groups of people, diversifying the language, evolving it and adding to its strength. Compare how quickly the English lexicon has evolved compared to German another major language let alone an obscure language like Irish.

Hold up a second, what makes you think China will ever overtake the US as the world's leading power? It seems your entire argument is based on your perception that China will dominate the world's economy, a dubious claim in itself while completely ignoring the characteristics of the Chinese language that make it an unsuitable candidate for world language.

If you want a more realistic alternative to English consider Spanish, already one of the world's most spoken languages and already being used as a lingua franca it's future as a major world language will be assured if it continues to grow as rapidly as it is in the United States where it is already the unofficial second language in south eastern states.

George Friedman can explain better than I can why China won't overtake the US any time soon.

Iwasfrozen · 29-10-2015 2:14am

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

The language of Ireland is Irish. I'm not getting into a history lesson, but we all know how English got here. The language of the Irish, is Gaeilge. I fully understand English is more commonly spoken, but that doesn't make it our national language. It still holds status though.

Nope, the language of Ireland is English. Irish is given protection as a minority language.

darkpagandeath · 29-10-2015 2:17am

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

The language of Ireland is Irish. I'm not getting into a history lesson, but we all know how English got here. The language of the Irish, is Gaeilge. I fully understand English is more commonly spoken, but that doesn't make it our national language. It still holds status though.

Don't need a history lesson, Maybe we should include Norwegian as well. What next people with Red hair are Celtic ? Red Hair also come from Norway It's why Scots have Red hair as well. If we are going history lesson then Ireland is not a Celtic nation at all. shared a common Trading language and a slight art style. People here came from the Spain Portugal area as far as I remember. Small trading posts here where Celtic Europeans but there was no mass genocide and the original people from Spain Portugal thrived.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 29-10-2015 2:17am

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

Cad é Fyp?, le do thoil.

Die Erste Satz:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fyp

Bitte schoen

Eugene Norman wrote: »

I've defined pro English language fanatics quite a few times in this thread. Hint: if you live in a country where one language is hegemonic (and world dominant to boot, worrying about signs in a tiny sliver of that country is fanaticism).

Plenty of signage in California has Spanish. Not unsurprisingly this causes English language only chauvinists much angst. As does French in Canada. Or First Nations languages in both.

Because there are of course plenty of signs in the Gaeltacht that are in English. Private signs etc. Probably there are plenty of public signs too.

In Dublin and outside the Gaeltacht there are also plenty of signs that are English only. All private signs. Many public signs.

The existence or non existence of your preferred language shouldn't really upset you that much, particularly if you are in the position of being the majority language.

Unless the tourists that visit the area are "English fanatics" (not looking for the defition as it's a moot point) then you don't really address the point I made: the use of bilingual signage benefits people that don't fit into your specfiic categories.

Private signs aren't relevant becuase they're down to the private individual's choice, and rightfully so. If you want to advertise your business are direct foreigners to you in Irish only, that's up to you.

The whole idea of a "preferred langauge" is bulll**** too, considering I'm endorsing bilingual singning.

29-10-2015 2:35am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

any time soon better than I can.

You need to think in longer timescales. China will overtake the United States as the world's dominant economy, and it will do so soon. Not soon enough for you or I to worry about the status of our native English, but soon for all that.

In 1914, the British Empire was the biggest the world had ever seen, and the British hegemony over the planet was unchallenged. Thirty years later Britain was a second-level power that owed its very survival as a nation to the United States of America. That is how quickly decline - or relative decline - can happen.

All the modern languages that we know have been around for the tiniest morsel of time. Believing in the notion that they will be around for much longer is akin to believing in gods. It might be comforting to believe, but there's no evidence to support the idea.

Even the Chinese that will probably dominate world culture in the 23rd and 24th centuries will be quite different to the language as it is spoken and written these days.

feargale · 29-10-2015 2:37am

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

English is a foreign language, I see no reason why it should be used. I would be more than happy without English signage.

That's fine except that the few million who know no language other than English might be left with a spot of bother. Like, have you ever had the experience of being in a country where you didn't know the language, and being harrassed by some bullying official who insisted on communicating in his language, knowing that you didn't speak a word of it?
Your attachment to Irish is very nice but you need to get out and see the everyday practical problems faced by people.
English is recognised in the Constitution as an official language. That's the Constitution I'm talking about, you know, that basic law that was approved by a majority of the state's citizens. Of course it's open to you to campaign for changing the Constitution, but the change I would favour would be to make both Irish and English co-equal. I'm sure I'm not alone in wishing to make the language of Heaney, Parnell and the Boys of Wexford equal to the language of Dermot McMurrough, Sean na Sagart and the North Cork Militia.

Caoimhgh1n · 29-10-2015 2:41am

feargale wrote: »

That's fine except that the few million who know no language other than English might be left with a spot of bother. Like, have you ever had the experience of being in a country where you didn't know the language, and being harrassed by some bullying official who insisted on communicating in his language, knowing that you didn't speak a word of it?
Your attachment to Irish is very nice but you need to get out and see the everyday practical problems faced by people.

I'm going to seem like a right nutter again, but I believe if we educated through Irish then we wouldn't have to face problems. If we were bilingual, it would be great. Anyway, I'll stop now!

Edit: Spelling mistake.

Chain Smoker · 29-10-2015 2:43am

No need to let them die out, but if you're preserving a culture you've gotta do it in a way that it remains integrated with society as a whole instead of becoming something of an ostracised sideshow.

Iwasfrozen · 29-10-2015 2:49am

Deleted User wrote: »

You need to think in longer timescales. China will overtake the United States as the world's dominant economy, and it will do so soon. Not soon enough for you or I to worry about the status of our native English, but soon for all that.

In 1914, the British Empire was the biggest the world had ever seen, and the British hegemony over the planet was unchallenged. Thirty years later Britain was a second-level power that owed its very survival as a nation to the United States of America. That is how quickly decline - or relative decline - can happen.

All the modern languages that we know have been around for the tiniest morsel of time. Believing in the notion that they will be around for much longer is akin to believing in gods. It might be comforting to believe, but there's no evidence to support the idea.

Even the Chinese that will probably dominate world culture in the 23rd and 24th centuries will be quite different to the language as it is spoken and written these days.

You're just ignoring all my points and telling me I have to look at a longer time scale...

China is dependent on the United States and Europe to keep their economy afloat, China is reliant on the West as a market for their industry, this will keep China in a subordinate position as any fluctuation in Western markets will affect Chinese output which will affect unemployment and political stability within China. The West and China are tied and over time this relationship will be to the advantage of the West.

That's the economic side, from a language side Chinese language will not dominate because 1) The language has very few non native learners 2) The language has little historical precedence outside Chinese borders 3) The language is very tonal, words can have different meanings depending on accent, making it unsuitable for non native speakers as a lingua franca and 4) It's writing system is overly complex, so much so that China has unsuccessfully tried to simplify it.

You've even ignored how I stated English has evolved rapidly and that is one of it's greatest strengths. You'll probably ignore the points raised in this video too but I refer you to the video I posted in my last response for more detail on China.

Putin · 29-10-2015 2:52am

kowloon wrote: »

eternal wrote: »

We are our past. Do not forget what moulded us.

Culture changes, that's why we aren't running around the place naked smeared in our own $hite.

Maybe you should actually read what the other poster said & maybe have digested it a little. It might have stopped you from coming out with a clanger like that.

feargale · 29-10-2015 3:08am

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

I'm going to seem like a right nutter again, but I believe if we educated through Irish then we wouldn't have to face problems. If we were bilingual, it would be great. Anyway, I'll stop now!

Edit: Spelling mistake.

We've been educating some through Irish for 90 years. Brendan Behan, himself a fluent Gaelgeoir, said that system left them illiterate in two languages. As for the rest, have you ever met an intellectually challenged person? I mean a person born intellectually retarded.
P.S. It took English 800 years to push Irish to the edge of the western seaboard. What timeline have you in mind for reversing that process?

29-10-2015 3:10am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

China is dependent on the United States and Europe to keep their economy afloat...

Good grief. :eek:

Really, if that's the level of "analysis" you're bringing to bear on the issue I'll just carry on advising you to look to longer timescales. It's about as naive as your assumption that the extent to which English is spoken is because of how nice it sounds.

FloatingVoter · 29-10-2015 3:11am

English moves with the times. Tolkien got mentioned earlier -and his specialty was old English. Just in case people think that's a bit like Shakespeare, here's a little Beowulf for you.

Hwæt. We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,
monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas. Syððan ærest wearð
feasceaft funden, he þæs frofre gebad,
weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,
oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra
ofer hronrade hyran scolde,
gomban gyldan.

Easy to read innit. No empires back then and a Norman invasion yet to arrive. Polluting the language with Norman French.
That's how language warps across a millennium, for the way it changes in spoken form and usage over a century just watch Ripper Street or read a court transcript from the Victorian period - people did speak differently then. And those that could write, could write beautifully - anyone with a parent or grandparent older than 80 or so has probably noticed that. We have a word per minute mentality and the handwriting to go along with it.

darkpagandeath · 29-10-2015 3:16am

Deleted User wrote: »

Good grief. :eek:

Really, if that's the level of "analysis" you're bringing to bear on the issue I'll just carry on advising you to look to longer timescales. It's about as naive as your assumption that the extent to which English is spoken is because of how nice it sounds.

It the language of Business simple as.

29-10-2015 3:24am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

from a language side Chinese language will not dominate because 1) The language has very few non native learners 2) The language has little historical precedence outside Chinese borders

You do realise that English was once just like that, don't you? Or do you think the gods dropped the language into the world fully formed?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

3) The language is very tonal, words can have different meanings depending on accent, making it unsuitable for non native speakers as a lingua franca and 4) It's writing system is overly complex, so much so that China has unsuccessfully tried to simplify it.

So what? If a culture and economy is powerful enough, its language will prevail. Only a culturally blinkered person would assume that one language would prevail over another for aesthetic reasons, especially considering that aesthetics are in large measure a matter of subjective opinion.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You've even ignored how I stated English has evolved rapidly and that is one of it's greatest strengths.

Again, so what? Your whole argument is based on the notion that because you are surrounded by the pervasive power of English you can't see how this world could ever change - ignoring the fact that a language that can evolve rapidly can also mutate rapidly. Don't you recall that Latin grew into several other languages? It came to dominate all of Southern and Mediterranean Europe - and then mutated into several languages and died away itself. All those other languages are clearly descended from Latin, and the influences of Latin in those languages can't possibly be missed, but Latin they are not.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You'll probably ignore the points raised in this video too.....

Yep. I'm a lot more interested in what people think than in what they can cut and paste. TBH, I think that's a good thing. Don't you?

MakeEmLaugh · 29-10-2015 3:33am

Martial9 wrote: »

Hebrew has been revived, the Irish language is slowly growing - not due to the millions pumped into it but due to the love of the language and Sanskrit speakers were almost always multilingual.

I know plenty of Irish speakers and very few of them became fluent through the school system. Which is mad considering hundreds of thousands of us came through 13/14 years of obligatory Irish classes. They were either born fluent or became fluent out of the love of the language.

My sister became fluent after spending a month in the Gaeltacht after fifth year ended. She grew to love the language. She was sent just to keep her out of trouble during the three months of summer holidays! My ma became fluent when she attended night classes with some friends after her divorce. I know a Latvian girl that came here to work for the summer, fell in love with life here and started attending classes. Similar story with a Swedish chef I worked with.

Irish is a beautiful language and it will not die. But we should seriously look at how we teach it and we should make it an optional subject in secondary. For example, if you struggle at English higher level and Irish ordinary level and really want to hit 550 plus in the LC, you got to pick up another subject.

Let the students decide if the want to continue studying it after primary and let's change the way we teach it. I despised Irish, but loved German class.

I had braces on from 14-16 and had regular appointments I had to keep. 'We're penciling you in for Thursday the 17th next month for your return.' 'Eh, that's maths and history class. I have double Irish on Friday the same time, how are ye fixed?'

I wish I agreed with you, but I don't see Irish ever becoming as much a part of Ireland as Hebrew is to Israel.

Where are the feature films produced in Irish? Where is the popular music produced in Irish? Can anyone name a single book, which sold more than a couple of thousand copies, written in Irish in the past twenty years?

feargale · 29-10-2015 4:04am

Martial9 wrote: »

Hebrew has been revived,

There is nothing to be learned from the Israeli model and too much time has been wasted talking about it, while nothing of it has been put into practice because nothing could be.
Israel was composed of a diverse group of people speaking various languages, where a lingua franca was a necessity, and it was as easy to choose Hebrew as the common means of communication as any other language. Contrast that with a small language spoken in isolated pockets on the western edge of a small country competing in a straight contest with the world's number one language, the latter being the everyday language of more than 95% of that small country's small population, and no other language being in the equation.
Few endandered languages have faced such insurmountable odds. I'm sorry that I don't have a cast-iron solution to your aspirations, but one thing I'm sure of - a failure or refusal to recognise realities will do sweet damall for Irish.

Should we let old cultures and langauges die out?

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