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NIHBs
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Galvium Irredentum wrote: »So Irish amm is being exported all over Europe? How can you thus argue for an import ban?
The import ban prevents hybridisation of our native Amm. It is this source of rather pure Amm that others across Europe want, not a hybridised version. If we allow our native Amm to be mixed with all the other subspecies, we will have lost yet another native species. And, of course, as you probably know, hybridised bees tend to become vicious a**holes.
Ask those who insist on importing bees: how often do they have to import new queens because their current hives have become unmanageable? Most Amm beekeepers actively participate in a queen breeding program, open mating their queens. This would have to stop because of imports, and only II would produce queens that are sufficiently docile to be manageable.0 -
Galvium Irredentum wrote: »So Irish amm is being exported all over Europe? How can you thus argue for an import ban?
Varroa etc.
That biggest change in thousands of years of bees being kept here, which was imported.
Not the only problem that can be imported here via bees.0 -
The import ban prevents hybridisation of our native Amm. It is this source of rather pure Amm that others across Europe want, not a hybridised version. If we allow our native Amm to be mixed with all the other subspecies, we will have lost yet another native species. And, of course, as you probably know, hybridised bees tend to become vicious a**holes.
Ask those who insist on importing bees: how often do they have to import new queens because their current hives have become unmanageable? Most Amm beekeepers actively participate in a queen breeding program, open mating their queens. This would have to stop because of imports, and only II would produce queens that are sufficiently docile to be manageable.
An import ban doesn't do anything to prevent poor quality aggressive bees, there is more than enough bad genes already present in the bee population here to go on producing bad bees for thousands of years to come. Trying to blame poor quality strains on hybridization is BS. The reason amm has so many poor traits is that no effort has been put into controlled breeding as has happened with the other races. They have had 100 years work put into them but yet the amm enthusiasts believe that wild strains of amm can be every bit as good with no work put in. Doesn't add up.
There is practically NO demand for amm in Europe because it is worse across all traits than buckfast,carni,Italians
Hybridization doesn't cause hives to become unmanageable. That is a MYTH. The characteristics generally just move towards whatever it is being crossed with over a few generations. Work without gloves here most of the time and can work buckfast and carnies anytime comfortably with no gloves, can.do amm only in reasonably good weather and must work slower as they don't ignore rough handling like the gentler bees do.
The main reason to get rid of subsequent generations is the loss of vigour as the hive becomes more amm like. When you can have queens averaging 2,500 eggs a day producing big productive hives, why would you want queens that will be laying the best part of 1,000 eggs less per day. While being more susceptible to disease and generally poorer all round as they become more and more influenced by the local population...0 -
You clearly have a problem with protecting one of our native species. In any case, I follow the science, rather than the religion of beekeeping. Well bred Amm with little to no hybridisation are sweet to work with. Some of my hives are really, really docile, but some in an apiary which I assume is exposed to non-Amm drones, can become quite defensive. According to the scientific research (e.g. see link above), hybridisation is a major cause of defensiveness in all bees, Amm included. That famous hybrid, Buckfast, commonly becomes completely unmanageable by the F2 generation. It is normal for Buckfast fans to buy in new instrumentally inseminated queens every couple of generations and there are some who simply squish & replace their queens every year or two.
There has been hybridisation in Ireland for years, from those that selfishly introduce new strains into an otherwise relatively pure area, and it is this that NIHBS is trying to avoid. And yes, the Amm in these areas become cross.
As for no work being done on Amm, then I suppose you have never heard of BIBBA, the Galtee Bee Breeding Group, NIHBS? Compare that to Buckfast - Bro. Adam would turn in his grave if he saw what his concoction had become - the modern Buckfast bears little resemblance to the original hybrids he produced, although I suppose the concept of breeding to specific traits without reference to lineage does follow his goals.
In the UK, practically all bees are hybridised with the exceptions of the Amm pockets in Cornwall and Colonsay, with help from Irish Amm. In the Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland and Sweden, again Irish Amm have boosted their attempts to rebuild the northern European populations of the almost extinct Amm.
I really don't understand your anger at the idea that it's good to preserve a native animal, nor your denial, in the face of all the evidence, that hybridisation really is a problem, not only for Amm but for all bees, resulting in increased defensiveness and increased swarming.
BTW, I have nothing against other bee types - there should be room for us all. For example, I would consider siting Amm hives in Leitrim as being unconscionable because of the damage they would do to open mating of Buckfast. Similarly, I think bringing non-Amm into areas that are 100% Amm is equally appalling - that definitely should not happen.0 -
You clearly have a problem with protecting one of our native species. In any case, I follow the science, rather than the religion of beekeeping. Well bred Amm with little to no hybridisation are sweet to work with. Some of my hives are really, really docile, but some in an apiary which I assume is exposed to non-Amm drones, can become quite defensive. According to the scientific research (e.g. see link above), hybridisation is a major cause of defensiveness in all bees, Amm included. That famous hybrid, Buckfast, commonly becomes completely unmanageable by the F2 generation. It is normal for Buckfast fans to buy in new instrumentally inseminated queens every couple of generations and there are some who simply squish & replace their queens every year or two.
There has been hybridisation in Ireland for years, from those that selfishly introduce new strains into an otherwise relatively pure area, and it is this that NIHBS is trying to avoid. And yes, the Amm in these areas become cross.
As for no work being done on Amm, then I suppose you have never heard of BIBBA, the Galtee Bee Breeding Group, NIHBS? Compare that to Buckfast - Bro. Adam would turn in his grave if he saw what his concoction had become - the modern Buckfast bears little resemblance to the original hybrids he produced, although I suppose the concept of breeding to specific traits without reference to lineage does follow his goals.
In the UK, practically all bees are hybridised with the exceptions of the Amm pockets in Cornwall and Colonsay, with help from Irish Amm. In the Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland and Sweden, again Irish Amm have boosted their attempts to rebuild the northern European populations of the almost extinct Amm.
I really don't understand your anger at the idea that it's good to preserve a native animal, nor your denial, in the face of all the evidence, that hybridisation really is a problem, not only for Amm but for all bees, resulting in increased defensiveness and increased swarming.
BTW, I have nothing against other bee types - there should be room for us all. For example, I would consider siting Amm hives in Leitrim as being unconscionable because of the damage they would do to open mating of Buckfast. Similarly, I think bringing non-Amm into areas that are 100% Amm is equally appalling - that definitely should not happen.
Preserving/improving amm if taken seriously would rely on controlled mating. Gbbg/nihbs have not made any serious efforts in this area. 100 years ago hives were being hauled up to isolated mountain areas to improve carnica and buckfast.
100 years of breeding with all of the important production traits taken into account has made significant progress. Amm has sat still at best in this timeframe and so a gap has opened between it and the European breeds which is why the majority of beekeepers throughout north west Europe gave up on amm.
The whole idea of working with a niche species is nice for those with a handful of hives but for any serious amount of hives you tire of amm faults after a while when you've no need at all to put up with them.
I run a couple of hundred hives and there is no issue with buckfast or carnica becoming aggressive in amm crosses. It's a myth despite what your link might say. If they controlled the hybridization they would have seen that the bad amm genes simply start to show up with the more amm added (not saying there's not good amm genes, just as you go further along chance makes it more likely for the bad to get their chance).
If amm is to be conserved it should be done in the same way as every other breed of agricultural importance has been. Controlled mating and creation of a pedigree. If it is really so deserving of conservation, to do anything less is an insult as it is the only way to guarantee with 100% its future bar of course DNA testing every single hive in the country and culling however many thousand that don't meet the right spec...0 -
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yosemitesam1 wrote: »Preserving/improving amm if taken seriously would rely on controlled mating. Gbbg/nihbs have not made any serious efforts in this area. 100 years ago hives were being hauled up to isolated mountain areas to improve carnica and buckfast.
100 years of breeding with all of the important production traits taken into account has made significant progress. Amm has sat still at best in this timeframe and so a gap has opened between it and the European breeds which is why the majority of beekeepers throughout north west Europe gave up on amm.
The whole idea of working with a niche species is nice for those with a handful of hives but for any serious amount of hives you tire of amm faults after a while when you've no need at all to put up with them.
I run a couple of hundred hives and there is no issue with buckfast or carnica becoming aggressive in amm crosses. It's a myth despite what your link might say. If they controlled the hybridization they would have seen that the bad amm genes simply start to show up with the more amm added (not saying there's not good amm genes, just as you go further along chance makes it more likely for the bad to get their chance).
If amm is to be conserved it should be done in the same way as every other breed of agricultural importance has been. Controlled mating and creation of a pedigree. If it is really so deserving of conservation, to do anything less is an insult as it is the only way to guarantee with 100% its future bar of course DNA testing every single hive in the country and culling however many thousand that don't meet the right spec...
Without wiping out amm bees how will this theoretical programme of breeding work?
The theory may be correct but open breeding will always be a problem. Reality will be the challenge to theory.0 -
Without wiping out amm bees how will this theoretical programme of breeding work?
The theory may be correct but open breeding will always be a problem. Reality will be the challenge to theory.
We have a number of islands and there is also the knowledge of instrumental insemination in nihbs. All they need do is copy what's already in place in Europe. If they sat down and put a serious plan together they could get financial support.
When you suggest this though its dismissed that it should be their right to open mate their bees and only expect to have pure drones in all areas to mate. Even if that were the case, improvement would not happen and swarmy aggressive bees would still exist0
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