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I think I broke my bees

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  • 23-06-2019 7:18pm
    #1
    ezra_
    Registered Users Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭


    I need some help, and probably a new queen!

    I checked the hive yesterday, and while I could see some eggs, I saw three supercedure cells on a frame, which were capped.

    I wasn't able to find the queen, panicked, and removed the supercedure cells. I had seen these uncapped cells before. The bees were very narky as well.

    So - I probably shouldn't have removed the supercedure cells, and I don't think they have swarmed because the hive looked as full as before (1 brood box, they have filled probably 7 frames, are drawing out 2 and the rest are foundation.

    So, my plan is to wait a few days (four), and then inspect again. If there are eggs, all is good (is it?) but if there are none, I buy a mated queen and introduce her.

    Is this the right thing to do? Just how badly did I do wrong here?

    First time keeper, we've had the bees for a month!


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    #2
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,386 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    ezra_ wrote: »
    I need some help, and probably a new queen!

    I checked the hive yesterday, and while I could see some eggs, I saw three supercedure cells on a frame, which were capped.

    I wasn't able to find the queen, panicked, and removed the supercedure cells. I had seen these uncapped cells before. The bees were very narky as well.

    So - I probably shouldn't have removed the supercedure cells, and I don't think they have swarmed because the hive looked as full as before (1 brood box, they have filled probably 7 frames, are drawing out 2 and the rest are foundation.

    So, my plan is to wait a few days (four), and then inspect again. If there are eggs, all is good (is it?) but if there are none, I buy a mated queen and introduce her.

    Is this the right thing to do? Just how badly did I do wrong here?

    First time keeper, we've had the bees for a month!

    I've Intentionally killed a Queen to requeen a swarm and accidentally killed a Queen in a nuc.

    Both have reared and made new Queens since, the first by adding in a frame with eggs from a different hive and squashing the Q cells from frames where they raised them.

    Not ideal, no mistake you can fix in less than 6 months is a bad mistakes, a month will see a big difference.

    There may be a slight possibility the Queen is still alive and they are building cells in a place they normally would not.

    Bees don't always follow the norm.

    You'll see new cells formed shortly, keep an eye out for eggs.

    Check that they weren't just queen cups. They always have a few of them on standby.

    Google the image.


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    #3
    ezra_
    Registered Users Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭ezra_


    Danzy wrote: »
    I've Intentionally killed a Queen to requeen a swarm and accidentally killed a Queen in a nuc.

    Both have reared and made new Queens since, the first by adding in a frame with eggs from a different hive and squashing the Q cells from frames where they raised them.

    Not ideal, no mistake you can fix in less than 6 months is a bad mistakes, a month will see a big difference.

    There may be a slight possibility the Queen is still alive and they are building cells in a place they normally would not.

    Bees don't always follow the norm.

    You'll see new cells formed shortly, keep an eye out for eggs.

    Check that they weren't just queen cups. They always have a few of them on standby.

    Google the image.

    Thanks for getting back to me.

    They weren't - they have those as well, but weren't using them it seems.

    They have eggs and young larvae now to raise their own new queen, but I don't want to lose the month and I don't want to run the risk of hybrid bees.

    So if the queen is gone - I should just buy and introduce a mated queen?


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    #4
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,386 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    ezra_ wrote: »
    Thanks for getting back to me.

    They weren't - they have those as well, but weren't using them it seems.

    They have eggs and young larvae now to raise their own new queen, but I don't want to lose the month and I don't want to run the risk of hybrid bees.

    So if the queen is gone - I should just buy and introduce a mated queen?

    Will get back to you in an hour, herself wants to go for a walk.


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    #5
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,386 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Walked, showered and shaved.

    Now to bees.

    Like a lot of things in beekeeping it depends, if you have a bee like a Buckfast it would make a difference,probably.

    The swarm I caught was likely a Buckfast, big Orange Queen, in Cork city.

    Wanted to move the nuc to North Cork, where I have native black and near every one who has bees has as well. So that was why I killed her.

    The crosses off her and black bees can be a pure headmelt, not always but have seen ones at a friend's apart that were demented. Had to be suited 50 feet from Apiary.

    If you want to maintain near native then you should be ok to keep the line pure, especially if you are outside Cork or Dublin, most bees outside of there are near pure strains, saw DNA study.

    It may be hard to buy a Queen at this stage , nit sure on thay and unless she is already mated in seclusion then it would still be the same as rearing your own queen and seeing what she mates with.

    Tis an answer for you and I think it is right but there may be an element of the one eyed king in the land of the blind.

    If more experienced keepers could weigh in, it would be great.


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    #6
    brianmc
    Registered Users Posts: 868 ✭✭✭brianmc


    ezra_ wrote: »
    I need some help, and probably a new queen!

    I checked the hive yesterday, and while I could see some eggs, I saw three supercedure cells on a frame, which were capped.

    I wasn't able to find the queen, panicked, and removed the supercedure cells. I had seen these uncapped cells before. The bees were very narky as well.

    So - I probably shouldn't have removed the supercedure cells, and I don't think they have swarmed because the hive looked as full as before (1 brood box, they have filled probably 7 frames, are drawing out 2 and the rest are foundation.

    So, my plan is to wait a few days (four), and then inspect again. If there are eggs, all is good (is it?) but if there are none, I buy a mated queen and introduce her.

    Is this the right thing to do? Just how badly did I do wrong here?

    First time keeper, we've had the bees for a month!

    I think your queen is probably still in there. Is the queen clipped? marked?

    Clear a bit of time for yourself so you can go through the hive slowly and relaxed, preferably today - the warm weather coming is ideal for a swarm. If you find the queen, remove her (I would say make up a nuc with her but your hive doesn't sound very strong - if you do make up a nuc, do it with the intention of merging the two colonies again when your new queen is laying (the alternative is to just pinch the original queen)).

    Go back in 7 days from yesterday the day you remove the queen and reduce any queen cells to one to raise a new queen.

    If you decide to introduce a bought queen you need to be certain that your own queen isn't there or the new queen will just be killed.


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    #7
    ezra_
    Registered Users Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭ezra_


    Well bollocks!

    Went through the hive (last checked on Saturday when I saw some eggs) and there are none now so I'm presuming the queen is gone. Bees are very, very narky. Really buzzing the veil.

    Two queen cells which are capped and it seems that the bees are putting honey in what was brood cells.

    Am I best to leave them at it or should I start working through the list of the NIHBS to see if I can get a mated queen so i don't loose weeks of no fresh brood.


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    #8
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,386 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    ezra_ wrote: »
    Well bollocks!

    Went through the hive (last checked on Saturday when I saw some eggs) and there are none now so I'm presuming the queen is gone. Bees are very, very narky. Really buzzing the veil.

    Two queen cells which are capped and it seems that the bees are putting honey in what was brood cells.

    Am I best to leave them at it or should I start working through the list of the NIHBS to see if I can get a mated queen so i don't loose weeks of no fresh brood.

    The changed narkyness is a real sign of a Queenless colony. n, as the bees have no brood to tend, they all go out foraging, watch to see they don't pack every brood frame with honey, leaving no space for the Queen to lay eggs in future.
    A Queen cell is capped at about 8/9 days and she'll have bout 7 inside.

    So those Queen cells on your frame are likely to emerge early next week.

    If weather plays nice 14 days she'll be laying. Rain will delay that.

    https://wicklowbeesandhoney.wordpress.com sells Queens, Amm bees, you could talk to him if inclined to do so.

    I'm making splits next week and would be confident I'll get a decent population for the winter.

    One benefit is that the brood break will hinder varroa for a bit.

    I'd let them requeen themselves, others might not.

    Talk to that wicklow guy maybe, he'll guide you, in one way.

    From the point of view of your hive surviving winter, you won't have worries, in my humble opinion.


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    #9
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Danzy wrote: »

    I'm making splits next week and would be confident I'll get a decent population for the winter.


    How much will that affect the honey crop with the flow hopefullly about to start? I am toying with doing that myself but mine have put almost no honey aside so far this year.


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    #10
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,386 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    How much will that affect the honey crop with the flow hopefullly about to start? I am toying with doing that myself but mine have put almost no honey aside so far this year.

    I'm not going for honey.

    A hive In its first year is only making honey in ideal circumstances.

    I have 2 hives that are brood and a half and they are hopping it in.
    Unless the hive is mobbed now, the flow is missed.

    Bees born in late May are the main honey girls in my reckoning.


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    #11
    bpmurray
    Registered Users Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭bpmurray


    Danzy wrote: »

    https://wicklowbeesandhoney.wordpress.com sells Queens, Amm bees, you could talk to him if inclined to do so.

    Actually their bees are Buckfast and mostly Amm - AFAIK they're not particularly pure Amm.


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    #12
    bpmurray
    Registered Users Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭bpmurray


    ezra_ wrote: »
    Well bollocks!

    Went through the hive (last checked on Saturday when I saw some eggs) and there are none now so I'm presuming the queen is gone. Bees are very, very narky. Really buzzing the veil.

    While being defensive is common when queenless, it is absolutely not a guarantee. This year many of my hives had no brood until the blackberry started last week so don't assume that no eggs = no queen.
    Two queen cells which are capped and it seems that the bees are putting honey in what was brood cells.
    Two - one to swarm and one to lead the remnants? Either break down one of them, or cut it out and put it in an Apidea.
    Am I best to leave them at it or should I start working through the list of the NIHBS to see if I can get a mated queen so i don't loose weeks of no fresh brood.

    Actually not having brood at this stage is absolutely fantastic for your honey harvest. Since there is no brood to look after, the bees will spend all their time bringing in honey instead, increasing your production. Forget about getting a queen from somewhere else - you have two already in the hive in cells.


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    #13
    ezra_
    Registered Users Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭ezra_


    Thanks.

    The mystery has been somewhat cleared up by a friendly local beekeeper.

    My wife watched them swarm away on Saturday morning and what was explained to us was;

    The bees decided to swarm, and being novices, we didn't pick up on the signs (like backfill).
    the queen was clipped, and they probably swarmed during the day. She didn't make it, and they came back to the hive.

    They waited (and during this period we saw they were queenless) until the two queen cells hatched. then left with on VQ (which my wife saw, and said was incredible [albeit frustrating]) to watch and we should have one VQ left in the hive.

    I'm going to give them 8-9 days since the swarm and then we'll see if there are eggs and if we are back to normal.

    thanks for all of the help and advice


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    #14
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,386 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Predictable in their unpredictability, the stripey buggers.


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    #15
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ezra_ wrote: »

    I'm going to give them 8-9 days since the swarm and then we'll see if there are eggs and if we are back to normal.


    Don't give up after 8 or 9 days, it could take a couple of weeks longer than that.


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    #16
    ezra_
    Registered Users Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭ezra_


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Don't give up after 8 or 9 days, it could take a couple of weeks longer than that.

    2 weeks to get mated?


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    #17
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ezra_ wrote: »
    2 weeks to get mated?


    4 days to mature, then up to 2 weeks to get mated (might be less depending on weather etc), but after then she might not begin to lay eggs immediately...


    Could be 3 weeks, could even be 6....


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    #18
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,386 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    The weather has suited you, whether she has made it suit herself is the question.

    Any sign of eggs.


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    #19
    ezra_
    Registered Users Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭ezra_


    Danzy wrote: »
    The weather has suited you, whether she has made it suit herself is the question.

    Any sign of eggs.

    Worringly, I think we may have a DLQ situation. I should know for certain over the next few days.

    Learning a lot this year!!


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    #20
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,386 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    ezra_ wrote: »
    Worringly, I think we may have a DLQ situation. I should know for certain over the next few days.

    Learning a lot this year!!

    Queen mating is a bit sketch this year.


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    #21
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,386 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    https://youtu.be/s9EF1k4eMpM

    Spotting a drone laying queen.


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    #22
    victor8600
    Registered Users Posts: 1,619 ✭✭✭victor8600


    Danzy wrote: »
    Queen mating is a bit sketch this year.

    I can confirm. I did a split in late May, got a patch of drone brood probably from the new queen (unseen) in June. I have then put a test frame on 15/6, bees have constructed ONE queen cell, which may indicate that this was a supersedure cell. This was actually successful, as last weekend there were 1 and half frames of new brood in that hive.


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