General British politics discussion thread

BonnieSituation · 10-05-2021 11:24am

Another day, another investigation...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/10/boris-johnson-under-investigation-caribbean-holiday?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Surely one of these will eventually stick?

fiveleavesleft · 10-05-2021 11:30am

O'Neill wrote: »

Utter Shambles. Apparently Peter Mandelson is back and people are suggesting he's advising Starmer. :rolleyes:

Worse than that. Mandelson is the one running this mess. Blair is the one advising Starmer. All they need now is Campbell to really finish it off.

10000maniacs · 10-05-2021 11:30am

rock22 wrote: »

I am not too sure that the difference performances between the Tories and Labour are down to ideology.

This link was posted in the Brexit discussion . essentially two voters list all the failures of the recent past , while the Conservatives were in government and gave that as a reason for not voting Labour!
This comes down to voter education and it is up to the parties ( i.e. Labour) to get their message across that the cutbacks of the past few years, the mess of a trade deal post Brexit, the mess in NI, are all down to the incumbent government. And the Labour party has failed in that very basic political task.
John McDonald, previous deputy leader, summed it up. Labour sent candidates out with no clear message and no clear set of policies they could point to.
Starmer has tried to close the door on Brexit 'dissent' when he should have been highlighting the disastrous deal the Tories were demanding from the EU. Perhaps Angela Rayner, in her new role ( whatever that might be ) can be more successful attacking the Tory failures.
Again , with Scottish independence possibly looming the Labour party has no clear policy or position other than a support for the Conservative government. Which leads to many voters thinking that it makes more sense to vote for the Tories directly rather than voting for Labour who will then support the government line.
Finally, the reaction of the Labour leadership, before most results were even in, suggests a headquarters which is floundering and just looking to deflect criticism. Not the most attractive qualities in a leader.

It's a no win situation for Labour when most of the electorate think that David Cameron and Theresa May were Labour prime ministers.

What can Starmer actually do to turn this around?
I personally don't think people are that stupid and it is all hyperbole to disguise the real reason they voted for the Tories. The Tories and UKIP put the Nationalist and "Bloody foreigner" thing out there since 2016 and white English working class people bought into it, but will never admit to it in an interview. Like the guy in the above video.

breezy1985 · 10-05-2021 11:33am

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Instead of trying to come up with catchy slogans, they could alternatively look at the places where they did well in these mayoral and council elections and ask what lessons they can learn from them. Why are some red wall constituencies more solid than others? Why have they been able to make gains, or maintain their vote share in some areas, yet lose control of the council in Bristol which should be a labour stronghold? Rather than getting bogged down in this or that ideology, or pinning blame on this or that wing of the party, they should be studying why people like Andy Burnham and Paul Dennett can cut through all the bull and get through to people.

I assume they lost Bristol because the people who supported Corbyn have switched and given the Greens 60+ new council seats across England.
I really think chasing those old red wall towns is a disaster they are gone and the people there are not going to fit back into Labour no matter what you try

breezy1985 · 10-05-2021 11:39am

10000maniacs wrote: »

It's a no win situation for Labour when most of the electorate think that David Cameron and Theresa May were Labour prime ministers.
What can Starmer actually do to turn this around?
I personally don't think people are that stupid and it is all hyperbole to disguise the real reason they voted for the Tories. The Tories and UKIP put the Nationalist and "Bloody foreigner" thing out there since 2016 and white English working class people bought into it, but will never admit to it in an interview. Like the guy in the above video.

Again wrong plenty of the working class are still voting Labour its really only in one area. This obsession with the working class and the complete overplaying of Workington man is disguising that it is the middle and upper class in the UK who have been the ultra nationalists and flag waving royalty loving CofE obsessed. All that has happened is portions of the working class have joined them

fiveleavesleft · 10-05-2021 11:42am

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Instead of trying to come up with catchy slogans, they could alternatively look at the places where they did well in these mayoral and council elections and ask what lessons they can learn from them. Why are some red wall constituencies more solid than others? Why have they been able to make gains, or maintain their vote share in some areas, yet lose control of the council in Bristol which should be a labour stronghold? Rsther than getting bogged down in this or that ideology, or pinning blame on this or that wing of the party, they should be studying why people like Andy Burnham and Paul Dennett can cut through all the bull and get through to people.

They won't. Starmer hasn't even bothered to congratulate those areas that had a good night for Labour. The reason for those successes is largely down Corbynism & HQ have said they are going to go even harder rooting that stuff out.

Joe_ Public · 10-05-2021 11:44am

breezy1985 wrote: »

I assume they lost Bristol because the people who supported Corbyn have switched and given the Greens 60+ new council seats across England.
I really think chasing those old red wall towns is a disaster they are gone and the people there are not going to fit back into Labour no matter what you try

Maybe the labour leadership taking the side of the establishment and law and order during the statue protests in bristol last year had something to do with it? The anger towards them was palpable at the time so i dont believe this is a surprise. I'm ok with the greens so dont see this as a bad outcome.

As for the red wall, what about places like Preston? A leave constituency where they still got over 60% of the vote in 2019 and which returned every labour councillor last week. What are they doing in Preston that they seem to be failing to do elsewhere?

Leroy42 · 10-05-2021 11:44am

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Instead of trying to come up with catchy slogans, they could alternatively look at the places where they did well in these mayoral and council elections and ask what lessons they can learn from them. Why are some red wall constituencies more solid than others? Why have they been able to make gains, or maintain their vote share in some areas, yet lose control of the council in Bristol which should be a labour stronghold? Rsther than getting bogged down in this or that ideology, or pinning blame on this or that wing of the party, they should be studying why people like Andy Burnham and Paul Dennett can cut through all the bull and get through to people.

They need to do both.

The reaction to the election results is telling. If the results had been times the opposite way (Manchester and London Mayoral results, Scotland etc) it would possibly be the Tories slightly on the defensive. Instead the Tories got to reveal in the Hartlepool result with little of no pushback on the other areas Labour did reasonably well in.

Starmer didn't help by appearing to panic.

What Labour need is ground work to expose the local cuts as Tory lead, to place the responsibility on the govt. THey alway need a better national communication strategy, or a strategy to being with, that hammers home a simple message.

ArmaniJeanss · 10-05-2021 11:50am

breezy1985 wrote: »

I assume they lost Bristol because the people who supported Corbyn have switched and given the Greens 60+ new council seats across England.
I really think chasing those old red wall towns is a disaster they are gone and the people there are not going to fit back into Labour no matter what you try

Where do you suggest they chase though?
Winning more votes in seats they already hold makes no sense (I know you haven't suggested it, but it is the likely result of some of the things people suggest).
They have a reasonably strong majority of the seats in big urban areas like London, Liverpool, Manchester and the North East, but it keeps them ~100 seats from an overall majority.

Which leaves (not an exhaustive list by any means) these sort of areas.
a) The aforementioned red wall towns, recently lost, which you don't think they should bother with.
b) Scotland which used to be reliable for 30/40 seats but now seems gone.
c) Some remaining urban areas in the Midlands (Birmingham, Leicester, Notts) etc
d) Wales - not a lot of seats but probably scope to win back half a dozen.
e) the Vicar of Dibley type constituencies in the 'home counties' which have voted Tory since King Arthur times.

Where would you target?

BonnieSituation · 10-05-2021 11:53am

It's not that hard to come up with something:

"Are you better off after a decade of Tory rule?"

That's it. Just keep hammering that question. Frame everything that way.
A simple message.

Of course, some are, but you weren't getting those votes anyway.

And for those that will continue to vote Tory even after highlighting this to them, that's fine, they get to own their choices.

There's a lot of hand wringing that goes on in British politics when things don't go their way.

In this case the electorate of vast swathes of the country have voted against their own interests. That's fine. Now point that out to them with a simple message.

None of this belittling or intellectual shaming that goes on will work.

Just ask the question and if they still vote Tory then what harm. Just keep asking the question.

There needs to be different strategies for different areas. They seem to be caught in this nerve ending cycle of "one size fits all".

O'Neill · 10-05-2021 11:56am

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Maybe the labour leadership taking the side of the establishment and law and order during the statue protests in bristol last year had something to do with it? The anger towards them was palpable at the time so i dont believe this is a surprise. I'm ok with the greens so dont see this as a bad outcome.

As for the red wall, what about places like Preston? A leave constituency where they still got over 60% of the vote in 2019 and which returned every labour councillor last week. What are they doing in Preston that they seem to be failing to do elsewhere?

Well in Hartlepool, apparently the Labour candidate wasn't even from the area FFS :rolleyes: That surely didn't help anyway. What on Earth were they thinking. I know he's a Doctor working during the pandemic so they probably thought that would resonate but having someone not from the area was seriously idiotic imo.

Joe_ Public · 10-05-2021 12:03pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

They need to do both.

The reaction to the election results is telling. If the results had been times the opposite way (Manchester and London Mayoral results, Scotland etc) it would possibly be the Tories slightly on the defensive. Instead the Tories got to reveal in the Hartlepool result with little of no pushback on the other areas Labour did reasonably well in.

Starmer didn't help by appearing to panic.

What Labour need is ground work to expose the local cuts as Tory lead, to place the responsibility on the govt. THey alway need a better national communication strategy, or a strategy to being with, that hammers home a simple message.

I dont disagree. Which is why i referenced Preston earlier. Because labours success in Preston is almost exclusively down to ground work that they have been doing for many years and managed to convince locals that they are "not being taken for granted", as the saying goes. Preston might not translate nationally, but it's certainly a model for the red wall at a bare minimum i would think. That kind of thing won't happen overnight though, it takes years and possibly multiple election cycles to bear fruit. But they have to start doing it imo.

Joe_ Public · 10-05-2021 12:07pm

O'Neill wrote: »

Well in Hartlepool, apparently the Labour candidate wasn't even from the area FFS :rolleyes: That surely didn't help anyway. What on Earth were they thinking. I know he's a Doctor working during the pandemic so they probably thought that would resonate but having someone not from the area was seriously idiotic imo.

From what I've read, he's a friend of Jenny Chapman, one of Starmers chief allies, and they imposed him on the clp as a shortlist of one. And then Starmer starts riffing about tory sleaze and sends Mandelson, of all people, up to direct operations. And it's all Angela Rayners fault naturally! They will have another red wall by election very soon in Batley and Spen, the constituency of Jo Cox, so that's going to be another test.

MrMusician18 · 10-05-2021 12:20pm

Say what you like about Mandelson, he knows how to win elections. And he's identified the key reason why they are not at the races here: for the seats they need to win they need to embody "Brexit values" and they don't. Labour need to stop trying to appeal to Guardian opinion writers and more to ordinary voters - even if that means pandering to prejudices that the more "enlightened" in labour find ghastly.

listermint · 10-05-2021 12:25pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Say what you like about Mandelson, he knows how to win elections. And he's identified the key reason why they are not at the races here: for the seats they need to win they need to embody "Brexit values" and they don't. Labour need to stop trying to appeal to Guardian opinion writers and more to ordinary voters - even if that means pandering to prejudices that the more "enlightened" in labour find ghastly.

What an absolute oversimplification as if Brexit values as you put it are what will win now or into the future. Brexit is a shambles talking about how worse your life is now and how the Tories made it that way is a better wider talking point.

Sam Russell · 10-05-2021 12:27pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Say what you like about Mandelson, he knows how to win elections. And he's identified the key reason why they are not at the races here: for the seats they need to win they need to embody "Brexit values" and they don't. Labour need to stop trying to appeal to Guardian opinion writers and more to ordinary voters - even if that means pandering to prejudices that the more "enlightened" in labour find ghastly.

Mandy and Campbell know how to win elections - keep the message simple and keep to the message. Also do not get drawn away from that message.

PommieBast · 10-05-2021 12:28pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

I assume they lost Bristol because the people who supported Corbyn have switched and given the Greens 60+ new council seats across England.

Bristol will have changed a lot since I lived there, but looking at the results map I'd say it is first-time student voters rather than ex-Corbyn people. Green Party has been picking up a lot of support in Bristol ever since the LibDems fell out of favour.

fiveleavesleft · 10-05-2021 12:32pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Jenny Chapman, one of Starmers chief allies

They are more than that if the juicy gossip we heard over the weekend is to be believed;).

Joe_ Public · 10-05-2021 12:34pm

Wasnt Mandelson the director of the 2010 election campaign where, internally, they jokingly came up with the slogan "fcked, futile and finished"? Maybe, just maybe, his "magic touch" has deserted him. Didn't seem to rub off on Hartlepool anyway though perhaps that was all Jeremy Corbyns fault, as he was very eager to point out. Corbyn, Rayner, anyone but themselves. These people never seem the most resolute when it comes to accepting personal responsibility.

MrMusician18 · 10-05-2021 12:34pm

listermint wrote: »

What an absolute oversimplification as if Brexit values as you put it are what will win now or into the future. Brexit is a shambles talking about how worse your life is now and how the Tories made it that way is a better wider talking point.

"Brexit values" are about more than Brexit - they are the push back against the progressive left - which obviously doesn't resonate with voters in these constituencies.

So labour can either adopt a more nationalist stance and drop progressive wokeness, or it can remain on the outside.

fiveleavesleft · 10-05-2021 12:36pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Wasnt Mandelson the director of the 2010 election campaign where, internally, they jokingly came up with the slogan "fcked, futile and finished"? Maybe, just maybe, his "magic touch" has deserted him. Didn't seem to rub off on Hartlepool anyway though perhaps that was all Jeremy Corbyns fault, as he was very eager to point out. Corbyn, Rayner, anyone but themselves. These people never seem the most resolute when it comes to accepting personal responsibility.

It's 20 years since those lads won anything. It's been cock up after cock up ever since.

ancapailldorcha · 10-05-2021 12:38pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

"Brexit values" are about more than Brexit - they are the push back against the progressive left - which obviously doesn't resonate with voters in these constituencies.

So labour can either adopt a more nationalist stance and drop progressive wokeness, or it can remain on the outside.

There's no such thing as Brexit values. Brexit is a proposal which has been executed and resolved (for the most part). It annoys me that the working classes of economically deprived areas have been homogenised into some sort of bigoted, jingoistic blob who aren't happy unless they see more Union flags.

As I see it, Starmer has two choices. He can be bold and risk alienating one side of his party or he can be bland and inoffensive and let support bleed out to the Tories, Lib Dems and the Greens.

breezy1985 · 10-05-2021 12:42pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Maybe the labour leadership taking the side of the establishment and law and order during the statue protests in bristol last year had something to do with it? The anger towards them was palpable at the time so i dont believe this is a surprise. I'm ok with the greens so dont see this as a bad outcome.

As for the red wall, what about places like Preston? A leave constituency where they still got over 60% of the vote in 2019 and which returned every labour councillor last week. What are they doing in Preston that they seem to be failing to do elsewhere?

Again the statue protest is the kind of lose lose stuff they have to deal with now. They probably lost some votes for not taking a "law and order" stance but I know plenty of votes they would lose if they came out against it. I'de know a fair few Labour/green swing voters who would have been supportive of the campaign to get rid of those statues.

Maybe the people of Preston are just more liberal and less.fond of statues than Hartlepool people

Joe_ Public · 10-05-2021 12:48pm

fiveleavesleft wrote: »

It's 20 years since those lads won anything. It's been cock up after cock up ever since.

This is the guy who has been lecturing people on how labour has lost the working class actually speaking about that working class in 1998 while he was supposedly representing them in parliament:

"Back at Labour conference, Mr Mandelson managed to offend the working class when he dismissed a union campaign to get more MPs elected from a wider range of backgrounds. "It would be a disaster if we thought we could discover some tidy quota system of blue collar, working class, northern, horny-handed, dirty-overalled people to have in our party," he told the Guardian's fringe debate. The party's selection should be "based on merit," he added."

MrMusician18 · 10-05-2021 12:50pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

There's no such thing as Brexit values. Brexit is a proposal which has been executed and resolved (for the most part). It annoys me that the working classes of economically deprived areas have been homogenised into some sort of bigoted, jingoistic blob who aren't happy unless they see more Union flags.

As I see it, Starmer has two choices. He can be bold and risk alienating one side of his party or he can be bland and inoffensive and let support bleed out to the Tories, Lib Dems and the Greens.

He actually has three choices, he can let things slide and lose votes to the others, he can go hard progressive and continue to lose the north or he can be pragmatic and adopt centre right social/cultural values but lose the Islington set along with the army of student activists that only know how to get triggered on twitter.

MrMusician18 · 10-05-2021 12:54pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

This is the guy who has been lecturing people on how labour has lost the working class actually speaking about that working class in 1998 while he was supposedly representing them in parliament:

"Back at Labour conference, Mr Mandelson managed to offend the working class when he dismissed a union campaign to get more MPs elected from a wider range of backgrounds. "It would be a disaster if we thought we could discover some tidy quota system of blue collar, working class, northern, horny-handed, dirty-overalled people to have in our party," he told the Guardian's fringe debate. The party's selection should be "based on merit," he added."

Rather ironically isn't that the policy now. You'll have Labour activists saying that the pool of candidates should be based on diversity and gender quotas rather than merit.

Joe_ Public · 10-05-2021 12:55pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Again the statue protest is the kind of lose lose stuff they have to deal with now. They probably lost some votes for not taking a "law and order" stance but I know plenty of votes they would lose if they came out against it. I'de know a fair few Labour/green swing voters who would have been supportive of the campaign to get rid of those statues

I'm not suggesting any of this is easy. But it seems clear to me that they made a conscious decision early to push the law and order, progressive patriotism agenda - or whatever they call it - at the expense of alienating the young, liberal vote on the basis they could afford to lose some of the urban vote and that old Blair saying of "they have no place else to go". And now the risks they'll get the worst of both worlds are being borne out, the left deserting in numbers while the right just continues to ignore them anyway. That's tough but then leadership is tough. There's a balance he needs to find there somewhere and fairly soon.

breezy1985 · 10-05-2021 12:57pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

He actually has three choices, he can let things slide and loose votes to the others, he can go hard progressive and continue to loose the north or he can be pragmatic and adopt centre right social/cultural values but lose the Islington set along with the army of student activists that only know how to get triggered on twitter.

I'm not on Twitter not a student and lived in Southwark not Islington I am also working class and this would describe my friends too.

He would lose us and lots more than the "Islington set" idea that you have sucked up with glee from wherever you get your news

breezy1985 · 10-05-2021 1:00pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I'm not suggesting any of this is easy. But it seems clear to me that they made a conscious decision early to push the law and order, progressive patriotism agenda - or whatever they call it - at the expense of alienating the young, liberal vote on the basis they could afford to lose some of the urban vote and that old Blair saying of "they have no place else to go". And now the risks they'll get the worst of both worlds are being borne out, the left deserting in numbers while the right just continues to ignore them anyway. That's tough but then leadership is tough. There's a balance he needs to find there somewhere and fairly soon.

That's pretty much how I see it. The left have the Greens and once the right had UKIP to go to it broke the link of Labour north and made it easier for people up there to fathom voting Tory

MrMusician18 · 10-05-2021 1:01pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

I'm not on Twitter not a student and lived in Southwark not Islington I am also working class and this would describe my friends too.

He would lose us and lots more than the "Islington set" idea that you have sucked up with glee from wherever you get your news

Glee? I couldn't care less what happens to British Labour. This is interesting from a purely political commentary perspective and Labour activists refusing to accept that they are out of touch and blaming the voters for being wrong.

Quite simply the voters in the former red wall do not want what labour are selling. Labour can change or it can wait 10-15 years for the voters to change. That's their choice.

ancapailldorcha · 10-05-2021 1:01pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

He actually has three choices, he can let things slide and loose votes to the others, he can go hard progressive and continue to loose the north or he can be pragmatic and adopt centre right social/cultural values but lose the Islington set along with the army of student activists that only know how to get triggered on twitter.

This is just a lazy strawman.

Turning the party into the Conservative party is pointless as we already have a party on the right.

Joe_ Public · 10-05-2021 1:03pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Rather ironically isn't that the policy now. You'll have Labour activists saying that the pool of candidates should be based on diversity and gender quotas rather than merit.

Which policy, more diversity or more "horny handed, dirty overalled" northerners in the party?

MrMusician18 · 10-05-2021 1:08pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Which policy, more diversity or more "horny handed, dirty overalled" northerners in the party?

Not choosing people on merit but picking people because they fulfill certain gender and diversity quotas over their ability.

I don't agree with his language but the point of picking a formal coal miner over a much more able individual that doesn't have that background is a valid one.

breezy1985 · 10-05-2021 1:09pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Glee? I couldn't care less what happens to British Labour. This is interesting from a purely political commentary perspective and Labour activists refusing to accept that they are out of touch and blaming the voters for being wrong.

Quite simply the voters in the former red wall do not want what labour are selling. Labour can change or it can wait 10-15 years for the voters to change. That's their choice.

I don't believe a word of that. People spitting about the Islington set and triggered students doesnt sound like someone who "couldn't care less"

Joe_ Public · 10-05-2021 1:24pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Not choosing people on merit but picking people because they fulfill certain gender and diversity quotas over their ability.

I don't agree with his language but the point of picking a formal coal miner over a much more able individual that doesn't have that background is a valid one.

Can you give some examples of where that has happened? Who was the former coal miner? I wouldn't say the labour selection process is above reproach by any means, but like it or not, gender and diversity issues are a fact of life and political parties, even the tories, have to pay heed to them.

Strazdas · 10-05-2021 2:51pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

That's pretty much how I see it. The left have the Greens and once the right had UKIP to go to it broke the link of Labour north and made it easier for people up there to fathom voting Tory

Many of the former left wing Labour voters in the north (the so called Red Wall) seem to be closet right wingers - they definitely approve of the Tories anti-immigration and anti-EU stance, hence them now voting Tory in Hartlepool.

Younger, better educated and more civic minded left wing people seem to be moving to the Greens.

MrMusician18 · 10-05-2021 2:57pm

Strazdas wrote: »

Many of the former left wing Labour voters in the north (the so called Red Wall) seem to be closet right wingers - they definitely approve of the Tories anti-immigration and anti-EU stance, hence them now voting Tory in Hartlepool.

Younger, better educated and more civic minded left wing people seem to be moving to the Greens.

Left economically and right culturally. They are also looking at what years of Labour representation has got them: jack all. To be fair, that's not actually Labours fault, since they were not in government, but it looks like the Tories have stumbled into a successful strategy. Deprive seats you don't hold of services then blame local opposition representation for the lack of services and progress.

hotmail.com · 10-05-2021 5:21pm

Strazdas wrote: »

Many of the former left wing Labour voters in the north (the so called Red Wall) seem to be closet right wingers - they definitely approve of the Tories anti-immigration and anti-EU stance, hence them now voting Tory in Hartlepool.

Younger, better educated and more civic minded left wing people seem to be moving to the Greens.

Being against membership of the EU is not seen as right wing in Britain. It is a legitimate political position held by at least half the population.

Many that identity as left wing supported Brexit.

Labelling Brexit voters as right wing/far right and all the other Twitter outrage is part of the problem for Labour. The southern Labour lot too obsessed with pleasing Twitter influencers.

breezy1985 · 10-05-2021 5:33pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

Being against membership of the EU is not seen as right wing in Britain. It is a legitimate political position held by at least half the population.

Many that identity as left wing supported Brexit.

Labelling Brexit voters as right wing/far right and all the other Twitter outrage is part of the problem for Labour. The southern Labour lot too obsessed with pleasing Twitter influencers.

I was with you up until this but you just had to tack on the bitter little "kids these days scare me with their new ideas" whinge. People wanting racial, sexual, gender, and class equality goes way beyond a few people you dont like on twitter and Labour are right to back it

MrMusician18 · 10-05-2021 6:00pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

I was with you up until this but you just had to tack on the bitter little "kids these days scare me with their new ideas" whinge. People wanting racial, sexual, gender, and class equality goes way beyond a few people you dont like on twitter and Labour are right to back it

It's not about right or wrong though, it's about what voters want. And seemingly they don't want this version of equality that Labour are peddling.

Labour, if it wants to win elections, needs to recognise and accept this reality. They change, or wait a generation for it to change. Just because this is unpalatable for some activists, doesn't make it less true.

breezy1985 · 10-05-2021 6:11pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

It's not about right or wrong though, it's about what voters want. And seemingly they don't want this version of equality that Labour are peddling.

Labour, if it wants to win elections, needs to recognise and accept this reality. They change, or wait a generation for it to change. Just because this is unpalatable for some activists, doesn't make it less true.

Should the Greens promote pollution. Should the Tories promote strong unions.
If you think something is right you should not change because its good for votes. If that's the case we should just have 5 parties all saying the exact same thing. It's not just some activists like you keep trying to pretend Labour still has millions of voters but you are too obsessed with social activists to see this

MrMusician18 · 10-05-2021 6:27pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Should the Greens promote pollution. Should the Tories promote strong unions.
If you think something is right you should not change because its good for votes. If that's the case we should just have 5 parties all saying the exact same thing. It's not just some activists like you keep trying to pretend Labour still has millions of voters but you are too obsessed with social activists to see this

Look, I don't have any skin in the game, I'm an overseas commenter.
So if it's not Labours message that's the problem, what is it? Because everything I've seen points to it being the message.
Do you think the culture war resonates in northern England?

If labour are happy to watch the Tories running the country, that's fine - they can look on from the sidelines. But if they want to be in power they will need to move to meet the voters. Voters are not going to change quickly and radically from a position that was 10-15 years in the making.

listermint · 10-05-2021 6:41pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Look, I don't have any skin in the game, I'm an overseas commenter.
So if it's not Labours message that's the problem, what is it? Because everything I've seen points to it being the message.
Do you think the culture war resonates in northern England?

If labour are happy to watch the Tories running the country, that's fine - they can look on from the sidelines. But if they want to be in power they will need to move to meet the voters. Voters are not going to change quickly and radically from a position that was 10-15 years in the making.

Your culture war is actually the Tories . I'm not sure you've been following their strategy at all the last few years. They are in the culture war

But culture wars don't provide jobs. Covid vacinne is near over I'm guessing the Tories will be found out in the next two years for relying on culture war and lies to distract people from the closing factories and missing immigrants for the jobs they need them for.

breezy1985 · 10-05-2021 6:43pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Look, I don't have any skin in the game, I'm an overseas commenter.
So if it's not Labours message that's the problem, what is it? Because everything I've seen points to it being the message.
Do you think the culture war resonates in northern England?

If labour are happy to watch the Tories running the country, that's fine - they can look on from the sidelines. But if they want to be in power they will need to move to meet the voters. Voters are not going to change quickly and radically from a position that was 10-15 years in the making.

You keep letting the mask slip on the no skin in the game stuff with your clear vitriol towards socially liberal activists

I'll put in an Irish context then. Peter Casey lost the Irish presidential election on a heavily "Im not allowed say this but" anti traveller ticket.
He lost so should he try run again next time but copying Michael Ds inclusive message ?

hotmail.com · 10-05-2021 7:13pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

I was with you up until this but you just had to tack on the bitter little "kids these days scare me with their new ideas" whinge. People wanting racial, sexual, gender, and class equality goes way beyond a few people you dont like on twitter and Labour are right to back it

That's grand, but it ain't winning votes or elections.

And I was referring only to Brexit and the constant bashing off Brexit voters as uneducated, naive, foolish etc etc.

Labour elite got too obsessed with membership of the EU and forgot that it's ok not to support it.

Joe_ Public · 10-05-2021 7:16pm

listermint wrote: »

Your culture war is actually the Tories . I'm not sure you've been following their strategy at all the last few years. They are in the culture war

But culture wars don't provide jobs. Covid vacinne is near over I'm guessing the Tories will be found out in the next two years for relying on culture war and lies to distract people from the closing factories and missing immigrants for the jobs they need them for.

There's also things like social care which they've been promising to sort out for years but keep on making excuses. Gove was asked about it over the weekend and blamed the pandemic even though they claimed to have a plan ready to roll out 2 years ago. They can't keep ducking that forever or the very unpalatable fact they'll have to increase taxes to pay for it. Social care is what cost May a majority in 2017 so it's one big issue that could easily push through.

10-05-2021 8:19pm

listermint wrote: »

Your culture war is actually the Tories . I'm not sure you've been following their strategy at all the last few years. They are in the culture war

But culture wars don't provide jobs. Covid vacinne is near over I'm guessing the Tories will be found out in the next two years for relying on culture war and lies to distract people from the closing factories and missing immigrants for the jobs they need them for.

What culture war are the Tories engaged in?

MrMusician18 · 10-05-2021 8:20pm

listermint wrote: »

Your culture war is actually the Tories . I'm not sure you've been following their strategy at all the last few years. They are in the culture war

But culture wars don't provide jobs. Covid vacinne is near over I'm guessing the Tories will be found out in the next two years for relying on culture war and lies to distract people from the closing factories and missing immigrants for the jobs they need them for.

I should've been clearer, yes the Tories are participating in the culture war and their stance is obviously resonating more with English voters. Effectively their policy is seemingly to dismiss it.

Maybe the Tories will be found out and the latent damage that Brexit has caused to the UK economy will start to show more readily and be easily attributed to it. I doubt it though - the Tories will likely pin damage on an intransigent EU, covid or anything other than owning their own policy. It's a strategy that's been successful for them to date.

Where do Labour go. They will probably have to tack right similarly to the way they went in relation to the Euro and masterclass in realpolitik that was Browns impossible 5 tests

View · 10-05-2021 8:43pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

Being against membership of the EU is not seen as right wing in Britain. It is a legitimate political position held by at least half the population.

Many that identity as left wing supported Brexit.

Labelling Brexit voters as right wing/far right and all the other Twitter outrage is part of the problem for Labour. The southern Labour lot too obsessed with pleasing Twitter influencers.

The overwhelming majority of Labour voters (70%+) backed Remain. Conversely, the overwhelming majority of Conservative voters (70%+) backed Leave. Therefore hostility to EU membership overwhelmingly a right wing position.

It is also completely incorrect to claim ”Many that identity as left wing supported Brexit” when the supposed “many” are clearly a small minority of Labour voters. The reality is that those supposed “left wingers” were, and are, voting for a right wing agenda. The fact that those “left wingers” once were supposedly radical (left-wingers) doesn’t alter the fact they are right wing today.

View · 10-05-2021 8:51pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

That's grand, but it ain't winning votes or elections.

And I was referring only to Brexit and the constant bashing off Brexit voters as uneducated, naive, foolish etc etc.

Labour elite got too obsessed with membership of the EU and forgot that it's ok not to support it.

The Labour elite were, and are, almost as hostile to the EU as their Conservative counterparts. They were almost completely invisible during the referendum campaign and, as soon as the result was announced, immediately backed the U.K. treating a non-binding advisory result (ie advice) as a a legally binding mandatory result (ie an instruction).

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