Scottish independence

I've no dog in this fight tbh but I believe Sturgeon would be a huge loss to the independence cause. The Tories tonight are gleeful about this and are holding her to a standard they would never hold for their own party leader. That shows how much they fear her. I'm keen to hear what her side of the story turns out to be. It's going to be fascinating to see what effect this has on the May election.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Huge loss. She's kinda like their Éamon de Valera figure who everyone follows but no one knows why.

Who would replace her?

She is not gone, 8 hours of scrutiny by the committee today and unless James Hamilton finds she broke the Ministerial code, she is safe

I've read through a lot of the reportage from yesterday and you'd have to admit that Sturgeon got through that as well as can be.

There literally isn't a more unflappable politician on these islands.

I've read through a lot of the reportage from yesterday and you'd have to admit that Sturgeon got through that as well as can be.

There literally isn't a more unflappable politician on these islands.

mick087 wrote: »

I like Nicola Sturgeon and if i was Living in Scotland she would of had my vote.
After this episode im left with many doubts. I don't know if i would now vote for SNP.

I'm just one person i know this, but how many would be of a similar position as myself?

This will now up to the Scottish people to decide in there soon to be elections.

Would you have doubts voting for the Tories in the next election given the lies and smear campaigns that they themselves are guilty of?

Just sent my postal vote application in

I will vote SNP (despite my reservations) in the constituency vote and will vote Green on the list. They really are the only show in town if you want independence

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Just sent my postal vote application in

I will vote SNP (despite my reservations) in the constituency vote and will vote Green on the list. They really are the only show in town if you want independence

Step one: achieve independence.

Step two can come after. Singular goal.

First Up wrote: »

That's the problem with Single Issue parties. They only agree on one thing. Once that has been achieved, their internal differences become clear and time and energy are wasted arguing about them.

Single party governments need to be more cohesive than that.

Of course. But what else can they do? Splinter before achieving the goal?

I think its clear as Irishmen and women that we have a fair idea that that won't work.

The single issue that they're focussing on is the biggest issue since partition to be dealt with by the UK.

First Up wrote: »

I hope not but they might splinter soon after.

probably a normal state of affairs though.

A majority of people are pulling for independence - but there are probably a sizable minority of people either members or supporters of the SNP who hold their nose at some of the non-Indy directions of the SNP, because they see an independent scotland as a more important goal than an independent scotland being run by the SNP (they may prefer a more conservative leaning Scottish government, just not in thrall to Westminster, for example, but are willing to stick with the SNP as they regard independence to make that decision on the type government scotland has to be more important than the type of government after independence is achieved.

If you have access to ITV, they are doing a programme tonight called 'UK: The End of the Union' at 7:30pm. It follows a poll conducted with Savanta ComRes that shows Scottish independence at 53% for Yes, while support for Irish reunification was found to be 43% in NI. This is arguably the biggest talking point...

https://twitter.com/ITVTonight/status/1367460568437641219

That's higher than what Scotland was polling prior to the 2014 referendum.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

If you have access to ITV, they are doing a programme tonight called 'UK: The End of the Union' at 7:30pm. It follows a poll conducted with Savanta ComRes that shows Scottish independence at 53% for Yes, while support for Irish reunification was found to be 43% in NI. This is arguably the biggest talking point...

https://twitter.com/ITVTonight/status/1367460568437641219

That's higher than what Scotland was polling prior to the 2014 referendum.

They could at least spell the country correctly. No wonder they want to leave!;)

Now accepting the position of the woman who wrote this opinion piece, it nevertheless sets out the patriachy element to the story between Salmond and Sturgeon:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/04/gender-politics-sturgeon-salmond-powerful-man-female-former-protege

Water John wrote: »

I'd have no problem, post Indy with a substantial groups of SNP voters moving to the Greens or a new Scottish Labour Party. I wouldn't want the SNP too big and dominating Scottish politics for decades.

I think something along those kinds of lines in terms of a realignment of the political landscape is very likely in a post independent Scotland.

Water John wrote: »

Now accepting the position of the woman who wrote this opinion piece, it nevertheless sets out the patriachy element to the story between Salmond and Sturgeon:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/04/gender-politics-sturgeon-salmond-powerful-man-female-former-protege

From the article 'Five months previously, in November 2017, she had been told about alleged incidents involving the former first minister at Edinburgh airport a decade earlier'

From Criag Murray blog
'“[T]he police also spent a great deal of time attempting to substantiate the ‘incident’ at Edinburgh airport that has been so frequently recycled by the mainstream media over years….

“They discovered the actual Edinburgh airport ‘incident’ was that Alex Salmond had made a rather excruciating pun about ‘killer heels’ when the footwear of a female member of staff had set off the security scanner gate. This had been reported as a sexist comment in the context of a much wider dispute about staff conditions. That is it. ‘Killer heels’. A joke. No charge arose from this particular substantial waste of police time…”

This article is scathing about the lack of transparency and obstruction from the Scottish govt

"Sturgeon’s performance was a masterclass. As an exercise in open government, transparency and accountability, her performance and that of her government throughout this enquiry was lamentable. As the best debater in Holyrood, with skills honed over a career in adversarial politics, she knows how to parry, obfuscate and shape agendas. She used the same skills before the enquiry."

Comment: Sturgeon's performance was a masterclass in obfuscation and deflection

I posted his article link

I am not aware of which side he is on. The blurb on the uni website is here

https://www.centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/people/james-mitchell

He is looking at the committee hearing from Sturgeon from a transparency point of view, the article from the Guardian you posted is looking from a gender point of view. Nobody is doubting Sturgeon is an accomplished politician but that does not mean she is a transparent one

BonnieSituation wrote:

If they get their mandate in May I can see the infighting coming to a halt and they'll get into referendum mode.

It's the period after a referendum passes I'm more concerned about. Deciding to leave something is the easy bit - as the Brexiteers are finding out.

First Up wrote: »

It's the period after a referendum passes I'm more concerned about. Deciding to leave something is the easy bit - as the Brexiteers are finding out.

You're just pointing to the mistake the Brexiters made - deciding (and indeed committing) to leave the EU withouth having given any though to why, or how, or for what purpose, or with what consequences. The period after the referendum was tough for the UK because they the chose not to address the essential pre-referendum questions until after the referendum. (Which tells you a lot about Brexitry, really, but that's for another thread.)

We know the Scots Nats won't make the same mistake because they didn't make it in 2014. The 2014 indyref was preceded by a lengthy public discussion about these questions, and the publication of a detailed white paper about what an independent Scotland should look like, and how the transition should be managed, plus a draft provisional constitution for an independent Scotland. So they have form here. And they'd be even more likely to do the foundational work properly this time, having seen the shambolic parade of delusion, incompetence and disaster that is Brexit.

One of the fundamental differences between the Scottish Independence movement and the Brexit movement is that the Scots Nats do what they do because they love Scotland, while the Brexiters do what they do because they don't love Britain — they dislike what modern Britain has become and they want to tear down and recreate a (largely imaginary) nostalgic version of what Britain used to be. Hence Brexiters are largely unfazed by the harm they inflict — when your project is tearing something down you've pretty much bought into the idea of inflicting harm, really, and your concern is not to avoid it but to rationalise it.

Peregrinus wrote:

We know the Scots Nats won't make the same mistake because they didn't make it in 2014. The 2014 indyref was preceded by a lengthy public discussion about these questions, and the publication of a detailed white paper about what an independent Scotland should look like, and how the transition should be managed, plus a draft provisional constitution for an independent Scotland. So they have form here. And they'd be even more likely to do the foundational work properly this time, having seen the shambolic parade of delusion, incompetence and disaster that is Brexit.

I was trying to make a slightly different point. SNP supporters are more engaged, aware and informed than the sorry dunces who voted for Brexit without understanding what it meant.

But the SNP is a broad church on matters other than independence. Almost all have strong views on what Scotland should look like but those views span a wide spectrum. I don't doubt they are ready to start planning for it but when they do, those differences will become clear. It remains to be seen how much and how quickly consensus can be reached to implement a programme for government.

Although not good for independence, it is not as bad as the unionist media are making out

https://twitter.com/JamesKelly/status/1368373857267105793

Water John wrote: »

The Savanta poll can only be compared with similar previous polls by the same co. Don't know what those look like. There well could be a dip. The margins either way are tight all the time.
A real effort by Boris to devolve would win the day, but he hasn't the vision to do that.

A Survation poll at the end of Feb also had No in the lead, by 1%.

Water John wrote: »

The Savanta poll can only be compared with similar previous polls by the same co..

and using the same methodology. I do not believe Savanta had a previous poll using the same methodology that they used in this one

The latest May election polling is showing a 7 seat majority for pro-independence parties (SNP & Greens)

You even have a completely false headline in The Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/07/most-scots-would-back-remaining-in-uk-new-poll-suggests

'Most Scots would back remaining'.

That's not true in a long time. A small majority would be a correct headline.