Handwriting decipher thread must post link to full page

pedroeibar1 · 16-12-2015 7:59pm

Knockananna - half way between Moyne and Hackettstown

shanew · 16-12-2015 8:05pm

looks good - the only letters I could make out were two Ks and and a possible 'ana'.. Knockananna was the only reasonably good match I found on wildcard searches

thank you

Hermy · 16-12-2015 8:13pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Knockananna - half way between Moyne and Hackettstown

That would be my reading of it too.

Jellybaby1 · 16-12-2015 9:54pm

Yes, Knockananna, often heard it mentioned so it was obvious - but not if you are not familiar with it.

Alan259 · 19-12-2015 7:04pm

Can anybody make out the full meaning of this marriage entry in Annaghdown parish, Co. Galway?

http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000631988#page/179/mode/1up

January 19th 1865: Begora, Edm. Cahill to Sara Nolan, Witnesses: ? Cahill and Mary Nolan, ? ? ? consanguinatatis.

I think the marriage dispensation bit means they are second cousins but it is difficult to make out the whole line. Thanks.

CeannRua · 20-12-2015 8:29am

Alan259 wrote: »

Can anybody make out the full meaning of this marriage entry in Annaghdown parish, Co. Galway?

http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000631988#page/179/mode/1up

January 19th 1865: Begora, Edm. Cahill to Sara Nolan, Witnesses: ? Cahill and Mary Nolan, ? ? ? consanguinatatis.

I think the marriage dispensation bit means they are second cousins but it is difficult to make out the whole line. Thanks.

The witness is Jas. Cahill

The dispensation bit is - dispenti in 3 3
Next to the two 3s is the little superscript circle used to denote degree

pedroeibar1 · 20-12-2015 10:49am

Agreed on Jas Cahill. The other word is 'causa'. The heading looks more like Bigora - is it a townland?

Alan259 · 20-12-2015 1:31pm

CeannRua wrote: »

The witness is Jas. Cahill

The dispensation bit is - dispenti in 3 3
Next to the two 3s is the little superscript circle used to denote degree

Thanks CeannRua.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Agreed on Jas Cahill. The other word is 'causa'. The heading looks more like Bigora - is it a townland?

Thanks Pedro. Bigora is the townland name, officially it's Biggerabeg.

pedroeibar1 · 21-12-2015 12:13am

Quite a conundrum that Biggerabeg placename, a lingistic paradox!

tabbey · 21-12-2015 11:14am

3rd and 3rd degrees of consanguinity means they are second cousins, because they are both three generations from their common ancestors, namely their great grandparents.

CeannRua · 21-12-2015 8:07pm

tabbey wrote: »

3rd and 3rd degrees of consanguinity means they are second cousins, because they are both three generations from their common ancestors, namely their great grandparents.

I would have thought the reference to 3rd and 3rd means they are double second cousins. Otherwise one reference to the degree would be enough.

tabbey · 21-12-2015 8:54pm

CeannRua wrote: »

I would have thought the reference to 3rd and 3rd means they are double second cousins. Otherwise one reference to the degree would be enough.

No, each party to the wedding is a great grandchild of the common ancestor.
You could for instance have 2nd and 3rd, this would be first cousin once removed, or any combination. Consanguinity always needs both degrees.

Alan259 · 22-12-2015 2:43pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Quite a conundrum that Biggerabeg placename, a lingistic paradox!

tabbey wrote: »

3rd and 3rd degrees of consanguinity means they are second cousins, because they are both three generations from their common ancestors, namely their great grandparents.

Thanks Tabbey, if only I knew who the great grandparents were.

pedroeibar1 · 07-01-2016 11:09am

Help needed please on the two Latin words below, placed after the bride’s name in the Register. The wedding (1856) took place in Cork with permission of PP Mallow. The second word looks like “conversa” which means “turned” (convert?) but AFAIK her family was RC. The full page is here, last entry on LHS.
Thanks.

pinkypinky · 07-01-2016 12:32pm

I agree on the second word.

The first looks like (Z--inter but that means nothing to me!

pedroeibar1 · 07-01-2016 2:51pm

Thanks Pinky - I have a suspicion (relates to sponsors), but will leave it for the moment as I do not want to pre-program anyone's thinking.:)

KildareFan · 08-01-2016 12:08am

looks to me like decenter conversa - which loosely translated means "proper way of life" or something like that....

pedroeibar1 · 08-01-2016 12:35am

Thanks KF, I'll leave it until tomorrow . Hopefully there will be another stab at it soon. (Only 14 views).

tabbey · 08-01-2016 12:48am

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Help needed please on the two Latin words below, placed after the bride’s name in the Register. The wedding (1856) took place in Cork with permission of PP Mallow. The second word looks like “conversa” which means “turned” (convert?) but AFAIK her family was RC..

Miss Shanahan may well be RC, but Mr McDonnell may not.
Precentor Conversa may mean she facilitated conversion.

pedroeibar1 · 08-01-2016 5:24pm

tabbey wrote: »

Miss Shanahan may well be RC, but Mr McDonnell may not.
Precentor Conversa may mean she facilitated conversion.

Thanks Tabbey. You put me on the right track.:) I was finding it hard to keep my head straight on these people.

I had not thought of “precentor” as that more correctly refers to the person who leads a congregation in singing There is no obvious down-stroke to make “Praeceptor” (a teacher or instructor) out of it, as that would have been a more logical word. The feminine conversa suggests it refers to her rather than him. Nova/nupera would mean ‘recent’ but I could not make that fit either.

Then I discover an entry for the 31 January 1856 (a week before her marriage) the baptism of an Anna Maria Shanahan in the same (St. Finbars) church - born to Richard Shanahan and Martha Peyton! The entry has some interesting comments in the Register here (bottom of page) in the same scrawl of Fr. Cummins! Again hard to decipher it in full but it clearly states it is admitting her to the Catholic Church and obviously revisitingthe entry that he married her! See attached image below to read

Anna Maria of Richard Shanahan and Martha Peyton aged 24 years and from Mallow was today admitted into the Catholic Church by me by the permission of the PP of Mallow. I married her to a Catholic on 5 Feb.

I knew her father was Richard Shanahane and adding Martha Peyton in the search I see he in 1827 (Cork and Ross / Ireland / Diocesan and Prerogative Marriage Licence Bonds indexes 1623-1866) got hitched to Martha Peyton. That also fits with Annie’s DoB in 1830 (from 1901 Census) and other dates / matching people in an old bible. In the Tithe Applotment books it is possible that relatives are a Widow Peyton at Coolfada, Kilbrogan (near Bandon) and a William Peyton in Clogheen, Kilgarriff Co Cork.(near Clonakilty). The locations fit with family lore of all that lot being from around Mallow/Doneraile. And I now have Martha to take her place among the 32

Thanks everyone.

montgo · 10-01-2016 10:16am

Can anybody make a guess at the sponsors names here (9th record on left side) on 21 July 1855 - Philip of Thos. Purcell & Catherine Neill. Maybe Mich(ael) Rourke & Kitty Kennedy??

Another one on 28 Oct 1861, (last record right side). I'm looking for names of sponsors again. Looks like William Bl (?) and maybe Ellen (?) Blackburn so first sponsor could have same surname. Although there were Blackwells living locally.
Many thanks

P. Breathnach · 10-01-2016 5:39pm

I'd be grateful if people would have a look at an entry on this page: http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634247#page/67/mode/1up. The record that interests me is on the RH side, just a little above the large blot, and is the first of two dated 9 March.

The father's name has been indexed in irishgenealogy.ie as Denis, but I suspect that it should be Dermot. Whichever it is, it has been Latinised by the priest. So this is not merely an eyesight test; it is also a test of ability to interpret a Kerry priest's Latinisation of two centuries ago!

lottpaul · 10-01-2016 6:45pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I'd be grateful if people would have a look at an entry on this page: http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634247#page/67/mode/1up. The record that interests me is on the RH side, just a little above the large blot, and is the first of two dated 9 March.

The father's name has been indexed in irishgenealogy.ie as Denis, but I suspect that it should be Dermot. Whichever it is, it has been Latinised by the priest. So this is not merely an eyesight test; it is also a test of ability to interpret a Kerry priest's Latinisation of two centuries ago!

Could it be Daniel? though I'd say its "Den,,,," so possibly Denis, though there's an entry a few lines above for Dionysus, which would be a better match for Denis.
Only other thing that strikes me is that if you think its Dermot/Diarmuid the English for that is Jerry and locally "Derby"? Could it be an effort at that?

P. Breathnach · 10-01-2016 7:24pm

lottpaul wrote: »

Could it be Daniel? though I'd say its "Den,,,," so possibly Denis, though there's an entry a few lines above for Dionysus, which would be a better match for Denis.
Only other thing that strikes me is that if you think its Dermot/Diarmuid the English for that is Jerry and locally "Derby"? Could it be an effort at that?

Yes, it could be Daniel. That name was used in the area (West Kerry, specifically the Great Blasket Island). Diarmuid (Dermot or Jeremiah) was less often used.

The reason why I am considering Dermot is that if I have the right couple, they had a son who they named Diarmuid.

The challenge is compounded by the fact that the community was exclusively Irish-speaking, while the priests made their records in English and Latin.

Thanks.

KildareFan · 10-01-2016 9:31pm

montgo wrote: »

Can anybody make a guess at the sponsors names here (9th record on left side) on 21 July 1855 - Philip of Thos. Purcell & Catherine Neill. Maybe Mich(ael) Rourke & Kitty Kennedy??

Another one on 28 Oct 1861, (last record right side). I'm looking for names of sponsors again. Looks like William Bl (?) and maybe Ellen (?) Blackburn so first sponsor could have same surname. Although there were Blackwells living locally.
Many thanks

Can't find Philip on the page you mention.
William's name - Some say 'the moving finger writes and having writ...moves on' however, the wan who was working on microfilming the register obviously didn't know about the moving on bit... she could have shifted the finger holding down the page so that we could read William's name.

The Chieftain · 10-01-2016 11:15pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Again hard to decipher it in full but it clearly states it is admitting her to the Catholic Church and obviously revisitingthe entry that he married her! See attached image below to read

Anna Maria of Richard Shanahan and Martha Peyton aged 24 years and from Mallow was today admitted into the Catholic Church by me by the permission of the PP of Mallow. I married her to a Catholic on 5 Feb.

Thanks everyone.

But that was necessary in order to make the marriage legal, was it not. Otherwise the priest could have been transported, and marriage invalid.

tabbey · 10-01-2016 11:33pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Yes, it could be Daniel. That name was used in the area (West Kerry, specifically the Great Blasket Island). Diarmuid (Dermot or Jeremiah) was less often used.

The reason why I am considering Dermot is that if I have the right couple, they had a son who they named Diarmuid.

The challenge is compounded by the fact that the community was exclusively Irish-speaking, while the priests made their records in English and Latin.

Thanks.

Yes, it is definitely Danielus

tabbey · 11-01-2016 12:03am

montgo wrote: »

Can anybody make a guess at the sponsors names here (9th record on left side) on 21 July 1855 - Philip of Thos. Purcell & Catherine Neill. Maybe Mich(ael) Rourke & Kitty Kennedy??

Another one on 28 Oct 1861, (last record right side). I'm looking for names of sponsors again. Looks like William Bl (?) and maybe Ellen (?) Blackburn so first sponsor could have same surname. Although there were Blackwells living locally.
Many thanks

The first one is Michl (Michael) Rourke and Kitty is possibly Kennedy.
Second, William and Ellen, I can not see the surnames. If they were both Blackwell, it would have been more common to record it as William and Ellen Blackburn / Blackwell or whatever.

Bingoo1 · 11-01-2016 1:13am

P. Breathnach - I'm reading this name as Demetrius (although a bad spelling of it)

Bingoo1 · 11-01-2016 1:18am

P. Breathnach - I'm reading this name as Demetrius (although a bad spelling of it). He spells is phonetically - Demetrus.

Bingoo1 · 11-01-2016 1:49am

Bingoo1 wrote: »

P. Breathnach - It could be Demetrius (spelled phonetically Demetrus)

Bingoo1 · 11-01-2016 1:50am

KildareFan · 11-01-2016 3:44pm

Bingoo1 wrote: »

Bingoo1 wrote: »

P. Breathnach - It could be Demetrius (spelled phonetically Demetrus)

Could it be a mistranscription of Dermetrius? I have found a website which gives Dermicius as a latinised version of Dermont/Dermot? http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~oel/latingivennames.html#D

If the name is Demetrius the Irish Genealogy Toolkit gives Demetrius as the latinised version of Jeremiah, Jerome, Dermot, Darby
http://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/latin-irish-parish-registers.html

Bingoo1 · 12-01-2016 2:03am

P. Breathnach - See Baptism - John (Joannes) baptised on 5th July 1809. Is that a brother? The father looks more like Daniel in this entry.

P. Breathnach · 12-01-2016 3:06am

Bingoo1 wrote: »

P. Breathnach - See Baptism - John (Joannes) baptised on 5th July 1809. Is that a brother? The father looks more like Daniel in this entry.

It has to be a brother - both parents' names match, and there were fewer than 20 households on the island.

Case proved.

Thanks.

Bingoo1 · 14-01-2016 1:37am

Montgo - Two more siblings baptised on 8/10/57 and 11/11/53

montgo · 14-01-2016 11:05am

Bingoo1 wrote: »

Montgo - Two more siblings baptised on 8/10/57 and 11/11/53

Thanks, I have 5 children born to Philip & Catherine.

VirginiaB · 19-01-2016 3:31am

Can anyone decipher the word/s following the second sponsor's name on this baptismal record for Patrick, son of Thos Graham & Catherine Cunningham on 18 March 1849? Left side of image, page 94. Sponsors Michael Fox and Mary Grehan/Graham, followed by an illegible word/phrase. The same word/phrase appears after some other sponsors on the same page in the Kinnegad, Co Westmeath parish baptismal records. Thanks. Link is--

http://http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000635234#page/94/mode/1up

KildareFan · 23-01-2016 2:42pm

It's the priest's initials A Mc A - Rev A McAlroy.

hblock21 · 23-01-2016 11:20pm

Anyone care to have a stab at this one?

http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632167#page/155/mode/1up

Last entry on the page 12th Nov 1846 Martin Dunne to Thomas Dunne and ALice Delaney. Sponsors James Neale and Catherine Delaney.

But what is written above Catherines name?

...... Dunne ???

shanew · 23-01-2016 11:56pm

hblock21 wrote: »

..
But what is written above Catherines name?

...... Dunne ???

based on an earlier entry (26th Oct Farrell) by the same priest I'd say it starts with an F.. but other than that I dont see much more at the moment..

pedroeibar1 · 24-01-2016 1:36am

I'd go for Joannes rather than James Neale (as it's Latin James would be Jacobus) The other looks like J ... Dunne but it could be attached to the entry above? Also not sure about that F - the crpss-stroke on Farrell is quite distinct.

spurious · 24-01-2016 12:35pm

I also think it's to do with the entry above. They had a full nib of ink for that entry, not so for the bottom line.

Hermy · 27-01-2016 12:37pm

I'm looking for some help with the marriage of Michael Moore and Brillianna Stanley - entry #1462 about halfway down the page.
I'm hoping somebody might be able to make out the addresses of the parents and the bit of latin in the next box which I'm hoping might imply that it was a second marriage for Michael.
The same image at irishgenealogy.ie is slightly out of focus unfortunately.

pinkypinky · 27-01-2016 1:02pm

What a marvellous name: Brilliana!

Is the first line "mortu...nt"? I can't make it out but it appears in that column in multiple places. Would it mean they're dead? I can make out mater and pater underneath and then it looks like the same word again

Hermy · 27-01-2016 1:09pm

I do know that the father of the bride died in 1857 so that could well be it Pinky.

P. Breathnach · 27-01-2016 3:45pm

Hermy wrote: »

I'm looking for some help with the marriage of Michael Moore and Brillianna Stanley - entry #1462 about halfway down the page.
I'm hoping somebody might be able to make out the addresses of the parents and the bit of latin in the next box which I'm hoping might imply that it was a second marriage for Michael.
The same image at irishgenealogy.ie is slightly out of focus unfortunately.

Addresses look like "Ballent***, Co. Meath" and Berkley St".

Michael's parents "mortui sunt" - they are deceased.

Brillianna's "pater mortuus" - father deceased; "mater in Manchester(?)" - would that make sense to you?

Last column "Dispensatio in Bannis et c???a fuit ab V.G. Monsignor Forde" - they were given a dispensation from the reading of the banns (and something else, probably trivial) by the Vicar General, Monsignor Forde.

pedroeibar1 · 27-01-2016 5:10pm

Looks like Ballantrae - maybe the clerk was told Bellinter (which is in Co Meath) and wrote the Scottish name instead?

Hermy · 27-01-2016 6:54pm

Yes the grooms address is Ballintrae, Co. Meath but I was struggling with the addresses of the parents. Manchester looks obvious now but I wouldn't have guessed it in a month of Sundays. Ditto the Latin which I was trying read as Martin Street.:o

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Last column "Dispensatio in Bannis et c???a fuit ab V.G. Monsignor Forde" - they were given a dispensation from the reading of the banns (and something else, probably trivial) by the Vicar General, Monsignor Forde.

Why would they be given a dispensation from the Banns?

P. Breathnach · 27-01-2016 7:31pm

Hermy wrote: »

... Why would they be given a dispensation from the Banns?

It was common enough. Sometimes a couple wanted to marry at short notice; in other cases,they wanted to guard their privacy. Look up and down the page, and you will find other instances.

Handwriting decipher thread *must post link to full page*

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Handwriting decipher thread must post link to full page