Management Company Installed Gates

road_high · 11-12-2019 12:15pm

There's never any secret about management fees before you move into an estate or complex. So there's little point in decididn you can't pay them after moving in.

Mrs OBumble · 11-12-2019 12:21pm

loyatemu wrote: »

I'm not a lawyer, but I'd be surprised if a mgmt company could completely deny someone access to their own apartment. You can put what you like in a lease, it doesn't change the law or the constitution.

But they don't own the apartment. They only own a very long term lease of it. Which they are not compliant with.

My guess is that the gates were voted on a an AGM ages ago, and ths discussion since has been about when they would be installed.

Amirani · 11-12-2019 12:24pm

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

I have, it's usually the common area doors. They change the codes/cards and then refuse to provide ones to the apartments in arrears. Or refuse to provide replacements.

In my experience this is normally more likely to happen in institutionally-owned developments, where people haven't paid their rents.

Haven't heard of it happening with an OMC and owners over unpaid management fees (except in relation to car parking).

Donald Trump · 11-12-2019 12:27pm

The real scandal is probably the amount of spongers who won't pay their share of the upkeep. Happy to lump it on to their neighbours to force them to stump up more to cover the missing money.

Amirani · 11-12-2019 12:29pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

But they don't own the apartment. They only own a very long term lease of it. Which they are not compliant with.

This is incorrect and not how leasehold ownership works. You shouldn't make categorical statements like this when you don't have an understanding of property law.

The OP does own the apartment (the buildings). They don't own the land on which it's built, and thus are subject to paying ground rent on it.

bikeman1 · 11-12-2019 12:35pm

In our complex, you have to have a payment plan in place or else you won't get:

A fob - this allows access to your block and also the bin store. No theoretically you can stand outside the door and wait for someone to come in or out, but that would be a real hassle and you could be waiting a while, as well as looking dodgy.

Parking permits are issued every 6 months, if you are not up to date your car will be clamped, so your allocated space is useless as well.

If you are in the underground car park you don't get the remote to open the gates either.

All this makes it awkward for owners, so not paying up is not really an option. Compliance levels have gone up. Finally, if and when you do sell, the outstanding fees will have to be settled before the sale will close. It is a lose lose situation.

The_Conductor · 11-12-2019 12:52pm

Amirani wrote: »

This is incorrect and not how leasehold ownership works. You shouldn't make categorical statements like this when you don't have an understanding of property law.

The OP does own the apartment (the buildings). They don't own the land on which it's built, and thus are subject to paying ground rent on it.

Typically the owner owns a lease on the apartment building which is personal to them- however, it is a lease nonetheless. The building *is* vested in the management company- as are all the common areas. I have copies of leases from 7 or 8 different apartment and multiuser developments on my desk here- they don't vary on this core structure.

The OP owns a lease- they are not the owner of the apartment building- and have limited rights to what they can or cannot do with their unit (which is not limited to structural change- very often it can detail floor types or partition wall finishes.

I live in a townhouse- with an apartment underneath me- and am in the same boat. Some day hopefully I'll live somewhere where I do own the building and can do what I like- for now- I have to live within the remit of the lease that governs my occupation of my unit.

I'm not even clear how or why you seem insistent that the OP owns their unit- there was an old concept of ground rent- where you leased the ground on which a dwelling was built and paid a token annual rent. Apartments don't work in that manner though.

Please be careful when you're giving advice- or contradicting someone else- as you risk giving someone else bad information.

ClubDead · 11-12-2019 1:01pm

I could be completely wrong, but......

It might be a way to force communication with residents that aren't paying fee's. I moved from an estate that had management fees last year (never again!). During that time, more and more people stopped paying or owed massive amounts of money. The estate suffered and it got to the point that waste wasn't collected some weeks. From speaking to the management company I learned that it was virtually impossible to get people to pay up (due to zero communication and cost of legally going after these people).

In my estate, they resorted to only giving keys to bin sheds to paying residents in an effort to force communication with non payers. This could be a last resort by your management company to address this issue. Having lived in a estate such as this, I would welcome such efforts.

ted1 · 11-12-2019 1:03pm

Aoife_Byrne wrote: »

Don't get me wrong I'm not complaining of a safer place... I'm complaining of my access being block to my property? The gates were erected without any agreement at an agm.. Even the director on the management company wasn't aware

It’s won’t be any safer ,it’ll be more expensive to maintain and cause a nuisance when having visitors or deliveries

ted1 · 11-12-2019 1:05pm

Aoife_Byrne wrote: »

They did it without a vote... It was mentioned at agms once or twice over the past few years but never actually agreed upon

Did they obtain planning permission for the gate ?

andekwarhola · 11-12-2019 1:13pm

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

To go to the expense of putting in gates and a access system, they must have a serious arrears problem. It was probably that or go bankrupt.

And you'll still probably get people threatening solicitors rather than getting their around the concept of a funded OMC for which they willingly signed up.

Having never been in an OMC outside of Ireland, I'm unsure if the utter and complete inability of many Irish property owners to comprehend the simple fact that the development into which they bought is completely maintained, serviced and insured from what they put in the pot and that they are all legally liable to do so under pain of insolvency and no insurance cover.

Raconteuse · 11-12-2019 1:22pm

Oh the barstool lawyers again. Of course it's not illegal - no sympathy for people who won't pay their management fees. And it is won't, not can't. You've a year to pay them. No excuse. I pay in a bit every few weeks.

And the Joe Duffy show? Lol. People need to stop thinking that this will scare a company, especially when the company is not in the wrong. They also don't just let anyone on air. Salacious as the show may be, they still do their research. Still give the other side right of reply. Still bear in mind defamation.

People not paying their fees affects everyone else. It's sh1t. The same system was brought in where i used to live. And if you keep your phone charged it won't die. Personal responsibility is becoming a non starter in this country.

And as for the comment about foreigners, the foreigners are the best behaved where I live. If there's an inconsiderate gimp, it's an Irish person. I'd love if that wasn't what I observed but unfortunately it is.

steinbock123 · 11-12-2019 1:35pm

I have an apartment in a small development. We had a phone number to dial to open the vehicle gates. There was a side gate, unlocked, for pedestrian access. The management company were blue in the face trying to get a certain few dodgers to pay their annual fees. So they changed the system - I now have to nominate the number(s) i will call from when opening the gate. The gate won't open if I dial the number from a random phone, it must be registered.
So our fee dodging neighbours couldn't get in with their cars and had to park down the road on the street, or, in the case of one particular obnoxious c**t, just outside, half blocking the gate.
Needless to say, they all soon tired of this, trekking in with their shopping etc. in the wind and rain, and have all paid up now.
Problem solved.
So I , having always paid the management fees on time, think this is an excellent idea and highly recommend gates on a development.

andekwarhola · 11-12-2019 1:36pm

Dav010 wrote: »

As anyone who owns a property in a gated development will know, they are expensive bits of kit, to buy and maintain. A board of MC is not going to make a unilateral decision to spend thousands without first discussing it at AGM.

This.

There are some unilateral decisions an OMC might have to make. In my experience, an OMC introduced clamping and speed ramps without bringing it to AGM because of fee arrears issues and dangerous driving respectively and both were relatively inexpensive.

A gated access system would be costly and require a lot of planning though.

andekwarhola · 11-12-2019 1:39pm

Raconteuse wrote: »

Oh the barstool lawyers again. Of course it's not illegal - no sympathy for people who won't pay their management fees. And it is won't, not can't. You've a year to pay them. No excuse. I pay in a bit every few weeks.

And the Joe Duffy show? Lol. People need to stop thinking that this will scare a company, especially when the company is not in the wrong. They also don't just let anyone on air. Salacious as the show may be, they still do their research. Still give the other side right of reply. Still bear in mind defamation.

People not paying their fees affects everyone else. It's sh1t. The same system was brought in where i used to live. And if you keep your phone charged it won't die. Personal responsibility is becoming a non starter in this country.

And as for the comment about foreigners, the foreigners are the best behaved where I live. If there's an inconsiderate gimp, it's an Irish person. I'd love if that wasn't what I observed but unfortunately it is.

Should add to this valid post that solicitors or Joe Duffy won't give a fcuk or have a leg to stand on. You agreed legally to pay fees when you bought a property and refusing to pay them simply shifts the onus on to other owners to cover the shortfall and ultimately can cause the development to be insolvent and unable to be insured.

In my experience, everybody from the council to legal industry have very little interest in what goes on in a managed development as it's basically a private company that you agreed to join and to abide by the rules.

andekwarhola · 11-12-2019 1:43pm

loyatemu wrote: »

I'm not a lawyer, but I'd be surprised if a mgmt company could completely deny someone access to their own apartment. You can put what you like in a lease, it doesn't change the law or the constitution.

I assume all gated development have a entrance for pedestrian access . You just can't bring your car in without opening the gate.

So really, I CAN'T ACCESS MY APARTMENT JOE WAHHH generally means I can't drive my car in the gate and park in my spot, all of which are funded entirely by the service fees that I agreed to but won't pay.

A small difference.

zell12 · 11-12-2019 1:46pm

loyatemu · 11-12-2019 1:55pm

andekwarhola wrote: »

I assume all gated development have a entrance for pedestrian access . You just can't bring your car in without opening the gate.

So really, I CAN'T ACCESS MY APARTMENT JOE WAHHH generally means I can't drive my car in the gate and park in my spot, all of which are funded entirely by the service fees that I agreed to but won't pay.

A small difference.

need clarification from the OP - if it's just the carpark she can't access, that's a fairly standard OMC tactic.

if they're blocking her from accessing her apartment entirely, regardless of the various opinions expressed above, I'd still be surprised if that would stand up to any legal scrutiny, otherwise why aren't OMCs doing it all the time?

andekwarhola · 11-12-2019 2:05pm

loyatemu wrote: »

need clarification from the OP - if it's just the carpark she can't access, that's a fairly standard OMC tactic.

if they're blocking her from accessing her apartment entirely, regardless of the various opinions expressed above, I'd still be surprised if that would stand up to any legal scrutiny, otherwise why aren't OMCs doing it all the time?

Would be amazed if any OMC is actually blocking a resident from their home.

Sure the OP can clarify although it's proving quite hard to get basic facts so far.

elperello · 11-12-2019 2:41pm

andekwarhola wrote: »

Would be amazed if any OMC is actually blocking a resident from their home.

Sure the OP can clarify although it's proving quite hard to get basic facts so far.

As it's the case that a landlord can't block someone from entering a rented place even if they don't pay the rent I'd say you are right.

It's the OP's home.

Lantus · 11-12-2019 5:20pm

Amirani wrote: »

This is incorrect and not how leasehold ownership works. You shouldn't make categorical statements like this when you don't have an understanding of property law.

The OP does own the apartment (the buildings). They don't own the land on which it's built, and thus are subject to paying ground rent on it.

An apartment owner would very rarely if ever own any part of the building structure. Their ownership generally extends to the inside layer of plasterboard and anything within that boundary and often the window and frame. The structural floor, roof and walls and all services and systems outside including corridors, stairwells, lifts, main doors, fire systems and all surrounding land is owned by the omc.

Aoife_Byrne · 11-12-2019 7:02pm

ted1 wrote: »

Did they obtain planning permission for the gate ?

I didnt see any signs up? So maybe not

Darc19 · 11-12-2019 8:23pm

Aoife_Byrne wrote: »

I didnt see any signs up? So maybe not

Interesting that you are not answering other queries.

Can you confirm that it is the car parking you cannot access and that there is no issue with accessing the apartment as a pedestrian?

Aoife_Byrne · 11-12-2019 8:32pm

Darc19 wrote: »

Interesting that you are not answering other queries.

Can you confirm that it is the car parking you cannot access and that there is no issue with accessing the apartment as a pedestrian?

I have a job, and other things to do, I'm not able 24/7.

I will not be able to access car park, bins or 2 pedestrian entrances (which is all there is) these are the only ways to access my apartment

RiseToMe · 11-12-2019 8:33pm

Aoife_Byrne wrote: »

I have a job, and other things to do, I'm not able 24/7.

I will not be able to access car park, bins or 2 pedestrian entrances (which is all there is) these are the only ways to access my apartment

What kinda set up is on the pedestrian gate that you now have no access to?

Aoife_Byrne · 11-12-2019 8:34pm

ShaneODub wrote: »

Are they blocking all access routes, or just one/some of the entrances?

All access routes

andekwarhola · 11-12-2019 8:35pm

Best just to pay your fees then I guess.

Aoife_Byrne · 11-12-2019 8:36pm

andekwarhola wrote: »

Should add to this valid post that solicitors or Joe Duffy won't give a fcuk or have a leg to stand on. You agreed legally to pay fees when you bought a property and refusing to pay them simply shifts the onus on to other owners to cover the shortfall and ultimately can cause the development to be insolvent and unable to be insured.

In my experience, everybody from the council to legal industry have very little interest in what goes on in a managed development as it's basically a private company that you agreed to join and to abide by the rules.

I am not refusing to pay.. I fell behind due to unforeseen circumstances ... Iv been emailing and calling management company since Monday to try sort a payment plan, I have offered more money and my calls are not being returned... What do I do??

STB. · 11-12-2019 8:37pm

Aoife_Byrne wrote: »

I have a job, and other things to do, I'm not able 24/7.

I will not be able to access car park, bins or 2 pedestrian entrances (which is all there is) these are the only ways to access my apartment

If you have a job, then you are well able to pay the service charges like the other owners. It's so the place and your property aren't run down and devalued to nothing.

Bins and car parking I fully understand. Its to get people who dont give a toss about paying their obligated service charges to enagage with them.

I would find it hard to believe they have blocked off the pedestrian entrances, as that would be a fire and/or security hazard.

Aoife_Byrne · 11-12-2019 8:38pm

andekwarhola wrote: »

I assume all gated development have a entrance for pedestrian access . You just can't bring your car in without opening the gate.

So really, I CAN'T ACCESS MY APARTMENT JOE WAHHH generally means I can't drive my car in the gate and park in my spot, all of which are funded entirely by the service fees that I agreed to but won't pay.

A small difference.

Totally wrong assumptions

Aoife_Byrne · 11-12-2019 8:39pm

loyatemu wrote: »

need clarification from the OP - if it's just the carpark she can't access, that's a fairly standard OMC tactic.

if they're blocking her from accessing her apartment entirely, regardless of the various opinions expressed above, I'd still be surprised if that would stand up to any legal scrutiny, otherwise why aren't OMCs doing it all the time?

I will be blocked from my apartment

Addle · 11-12-2019 8:41pm

Aoife_Byrne wrote: »

I will be blocked from my apartment

Future tense?

Aoife_Byrne · 11-12-2019 8:50pm

Addle wrote: »

Future tense?

From tomorrow

c montgomery · 11-12-2019 9:02pm

I'm a director of a management company.

We had an issue with outside people coming to our development to dump rubbish in communal bins. We put a secure gate at the bin entrance so they started dumping the rubbish in front of the gate or over the gate.

We finally installed gates to the complex with a phone system where only pre approved phone numbers could open the gates. This sorted the issue of illegal dumping but also made the development more secure.

We had to go through a long enough process to install the gates due to the cost/complexity and were fully engaged with all owners . I don't see how any management company could install gates like this as described by the OP.

STB. · 11-12-2019 9:03pm

Aoife_Byrne wrote: »

I am not refusing to pay.. I fell behind due to unforeseen circumstances ... Iv been emailing and calling management company since Monday to try sort a payment plan, I have offered more money and my calls are not being returned... What do I do??

Aoife_Byrne wrote: »

From tomorrow

So it took the management company to close access points to the complex to get you to engage with them and now you are expecting McDonald's like customer service and access! You aren't going to get much sympathy, Aoife.

The best advice is get a payment plan agreed. Its a tactic that they have obviously felt they have had to resort to get everyone paying their fair and agreed share. Its usually only implemented when people run up massive service debts that the development cannot maintain itself. Otherwise you are going to be incovenienced waiting around for others to let you in (although I am not firmly convinced its legal).

Marcusm · 11-12-2019 9:20pm

Mike3549 wrote: »

Not really, only common area, they didnt change your locks.

Edit: you know you dont own the property, only a lease

The lease will contain a right of way over the common areas and it will not be subject to fees being paid. I think forfeiture of the lease should be sought rather than these manoeuvres which ultimately involve additional capital cost and may be challenged (expensively) in court.

Marcusm · 11-12-2019 9:23pm

Lantus wrote: »

Most standard contract leases will specify that both use and right of access to a common area is dependant and contingent on payment of fees. A section of common area usually has to be accessed and used before the apartment owners own front door is reached.

It's not used enough and there is a ticking time bomb of under investment in managed apartment blocks which is yet to hit when major repairs to lifts, roofs and other big building elements hit. You can bet good money that the first to complain the omc didn't do enough are the cohort who didn't pay.

Such clauses would be unacceptable to lenders so I would be surprised if they were at all common.

Marcusm · 11-12-2019 9:29pm

andekwarhola wrote: »

And you'll still probably get people threatening solicitors rather than getting their around the concept of a funded OMC for which they willingly signed up.

Having never been in an OMC outside of Ireland, I'm unsure if the utter and complete inability of many Irish property owners to comprehend the simple fact that the development into which they bought is completely maintained, serviced and insured from what they put in the pot and that they are all legally liable to do so under pain of insolvency and no insurance cover.

Trust me it’s not limited to Ireland. In a London development I lived in we had multiple tribunal cases against the OMC by groups of residents. One of them involved nine days of oral hearings before being adjourned for settlement talks. Ultimately the OMC had to back down as it had acted in a high handed manner and failed to operate within the law. As a result £80k of Mgt fees had to be written off and £200k of legal fees paid. Those were borne by the 40% or apartment owners who had participated in the freehold purchase. It taught me that care is often not exercised by the managing agents (the supposed professionals) which can result in serious costs being borne by a portion of residents.

Marcusm · 11-12-2019 9:30pm

c montgomery wrote: »

I'm a director of a management company.

We had an issue with outside people coming to our development to dump rubbish in communal bins. We put a secure gate at the bin entrance so they started dumping the rubbish in front of the gate or over the gate.

We finally installed gates to the complex with a phone system where only pre approved phone numbers could open the gates. This sorted the issue of illegal dumping but also made the development more secure.

We had to go through a long enough process to install the gates due to the cost/complexity and were fully engaged with all owners . I don't see how any management company could install gates like this as described by the OP.

This I am believe; hard to see how it would not involve planning permission as well.

Aoife_Byrne · 11-12-2019 10:05pm

STB. wrote: »

If you have a job, then you are well able to pay the service charges like the other owners. It's so the place and your property aren't run down and devalued to nothing.

Bins and car parking I fully understand. Its to get people who dont give a toss about paying their obligated service charges to enagage with them.

I would find it hard to believe they have blocked off the pedestrian entrances, as that would be a fire and/or security hazard.

How do u know I'm well able???

andekwarhola · 11-12-2019 10:17pm

I'm a director too. We'd never turn down an offer from a resident to arrange staged payment of arrears unless the offer was so small that it wouldn't actually shift the debt after factoring ongoing fees.

I would have thought most OMCs would be understanding of regular payers that fall into temporary hard times. We certainly would. The ones that usually get the hard line are the serial non-payers.

I'd hazard a guess that there much be similarly serious financial issues in your development to have brought around these circumstances.

11-12-2019 10:31pm

andekwarhola wrote: »

I'm a director too. We'd never turn down an offer from a resident to arrange staged payment of arrears unless the offer was so small that it wouldn't actually shift the debt after factoring ongoing fees.

I would have thought most OMCs would be understanding of regular payers that fall in temporary hard times. We certainly would. The ones that usually get the hard line are serial non-payers.

Likewise, when I was on the board of Directors, we were more than happy to facilitate staged payments.

The op is taking flack here for not paying the sub, there is a difference between can’t and won’t. If the op is paying in instalments with the agreement of course he MC, there really should not be any criticism directed at the op.

Having said that, it is difficult to imagine a scenario where entrance to your property is prevented in totality by he new gates, I’m not a legal eagle but there would surely be legal consequences for the MC if they did that. I suspect op that you may not have all the facts relating to the new system, the info you have given does not seem complete.

As I said earlier, the gates didn’t arrive overnight, the decision would be long in the making, you said yourself it was as mentioned a number of times at AGMs. I suspect your entry will be limited to pedestrian gates until some arrangement can be made. The fact that the new system isn’t yet in function suggests they have given owners a period to pay subs before access through the new gates is restricted. Talk to them and pay, if you can.

I see another post above about planning, if the gates are less than 2m in height, which most are, no planning is necessary.

Caranica · 11-12-2019 10:37pm

Dav010 wrote: »

I see another post above about planning, if the gates are less than 2m in height, which most are, no planning is necessary.

Not necessarily true. Our original planning permission specifically excludes erecting gates, if we wanted to do so we would need pp. In my area it's council policy to refuse to create gated communities

11-12-2019 10:47pm

Caranica wrote: »

Not necessarily true. Our original planning permission specifically excludes erecting gates, if we wanted to do so we would need pp. In my area it's council policy to refuse to create gated communities

Which council area does that? I’ve checked loads of planning sites, coco sites etc, all say that gates can be placed up to 2m in height without need to apply for planning. Dublin tends to be among the most stringent, they allow gates up to 2m

https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Planning/FileDownLoad,1586,en.pdf

Caranica · 12-12-2019 12:02am

Fingal

jd · 12-12-2019 12:18am

Caranica wrote: »

Fingal

Yup, Fingal have a definite policy on gated communities. We had a problem with outsiders using resident's parking spaces, and besides other practical difficulties, it was one reason why the possibility of using gates/barriers was not pursued

elperello · 12-12-2019 12:19am

Caranica wrote: »

Fingal

Is that for apartments or estates?

jd · 12-12-2019 12:22am

elperello wrote: »

Is that for apartments or estates?

https://consult.fingal.ie/en/consultation/draft-fingal-development-plan-2017-%E2%80%93-2023-stage-2/chapter/chapter-12-development

Gated Communities

Gated communities are communities or developments in which access to the public is not readily available due to the erection of different types of physical barriers. Gated communities serve to exclude and divide communities and do not support the development of a permeable, connected and linked urban area.

1Objective DMS32
Prohibit proposals that would create a gated community for any new residential developments.

elperello · 12-12-2019 12:33am

jd wrote: »

https://consult.fingal.ie/en/consultation/draft-fingal-development-plan-2017-%E2%80%93-2023-stage-2/chapter/chapter-12-development

Sounds like they are referring to estates there which do have public areas.
Apartment complexes don't and the public have no business entering them.

Worth clarifying.
If they refused PP based on that an appeal to ABP could be worthwhile.

Caranica · 12-12-2019 9:03am

elperello wrote: »

Sounds like they are referring to estates there which do have public areas.
Apartment complexes don't and the public have no business entering them.

Worth clarifying.
If they refused PP based on that an appeal to ABP could be worthwhile.

It's specifically listed in our planning permission and we had a pre planning meeting with the council a few years ago looking to add them due to abuse of parking and dumping of rubbish but it was a definite no. Mixed development, about 80% apartments

Management Company Installed Gates

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