First Tri

new2tri19 · 24-01-2019 2:49pm #1

Hi guys looking for some advice please. Have been a runner a few years and recently started back cycling on zwift mostly. I decided i'd try to enter a triathlon only problem is i've never learned to swim properly and have only ever been in a pool while on holidays and never actually swam just threaded water.

Anyway I decided to give it a go so joined up with the local pool in December and managed to swim 1 length (25m) hung on the wall for about 2 minutes and then swam another length . I kept at this until i covered 1000m . So I've kept going about 3/4 times a week I gradually decreased the rest and increased the distance without stopping , today 6 weeks after starting I swam 500m without stopping which im delighted with. I supposed my problem is I'm really slow looking at other triathletes in strava that swim . I'd like to enter a sprint triathlon in June but don't want to embarrass myself and be last out of the water.
I swam todays 500m in 2.20 per 100m pace with strokes per minute of 21 , I see others on strava doing 30+ spm do I just need to move my hands faster? I did a 50m flat out at end of session and did 1.40 per 100m pace but I was out of breath that pace wouldn't be sustainable for me.
My question is should i hold off longer or give the triathlon in june a bash ?

BIGT4464 · 24-01-2019 2:56pm

Go for it, you will not be the slowest swimmer for sure. 600m or so in a wetsuit should be no problem to you.

dickidy · 24-01-2019 2:58pm

heh, i was the same on my first tri.
I was checking old results and i was coming out of the water last in every one. it took me 27 min to do my sprint swim and i wasnt last.
With the pace you are going you will be nowhere near last so dont worry and enjoy it.

fletch · 24-01-2019 3:01pm

You've done amazing in such a short time. A sprint distance swim will be no bother to you in June.

BIGT4464 · 24-01-2019 3:02pm

Then you can blast past them all on you bike and run.

Kurt.Godel · 24-01-2019 3:09pm

Fair play to you, that's some serious progress so far. You've got plenty of determination if you're swimming 3/4 times a week already!

Don't bother comparing your times (or especially stroke rates) with what others can do on Strava, they are irrelevant to your progress. Having a swim coach look over your stroke at this stage might be beneficial, as might joining a beginners swim group (perhaps google "Swim for a mile" and see if there are any training groups locally). But keeping on as your are will bring continued improvements. If you can't do this, the "Swim Smooth" book and website is a good source of tips and guidance for beginners.

Likewise there is no embarrassment in being last in the swim (really doubt you would though, given the times you mention)- the race is only beginning at this stage and you'll have targets to pick off during the bike/run sections.

Macy0161 · 24-01-2019 3:18pm

fwiw that swim time is as fast as mine (in the pool at least) for most of the couple of years I did Triathlon! I was never last out of my wave either and did up to Olympic distance (including Cobh). But my experience no one cares, once you can hit cut off times. You could also look at a race that does a rolling start.

If you're male, you'll most likely get a boost from the bouyancy of the wetsuit too - that was worth about 30 seconds a 100m for me with my very sinky legs.

new2tri19 · 24-01-2019 3:20pm

Thanks for the kind words guys really appreciate it .
I did actually google how to swim 1000m and ended up finding a couch to 1 mile group that said it takes on average 6 weeks to go from non swimmer to swimming a mile non stop so I felt I was doing pretty badly only been at 500m non stop after 6 weeks.

I'm going to get that "Swim smooth" book for sure because its not the first time I've heard it mentioned . I was just looking at youtube videos but sometimes I overload myself with information and then try to concentrate on too many things at once and end up with a mouthful of water and getting frustrated.

Ah sure someone has to be last out of the water I don't mind been last but don't want to embarrass myself either once i'm in touching distance of the second last person out of the water haha!
Right it's payday and i'm going to enter this tonight its Tri and Mhi Sprint & Standard Distance Triathlon 2019 that's going to give me a few months to train . I'll let you's know how training goes any tips i'm all ears.

reidman · 24-01-2019 3:36pm

You'll be fine - every other first timer there will be worried about the swim too. No need, you'll rock it on the day - enjoy

Arsenium · 25-01-2019 10:28am

new2tri19 wrote: »

Thanks for the kind words guys really appreciate it .
I did actually google how to swim 1000m and ended up finding a couch to 1 mile group that said it takes on average 6 weeks to go from non swimmer to swimming a mile non stop so I felt I was doing pretty badly only been at 500m non stop after 6 weeks.

I'm going to get that "Swim smooth" book for sure because its not the first time I've heard it mentioned . I was just looking at youtube videos but sometimes I overload myself with information and then try to concentrate on too many things at once and end up with a mouthful of water and getting frustrated.

Ah sure someone has to be last out of the water I don't mind been last but don't want to embarrass myself either once i'm in touching distance of the second last person out of the water haha!
Right it's payday and i'm going to enter this tonight its Tri and Mhi Sprint & Standard Distance Triathlon 2019 that's going to give me a few months to train . I'll let you's know how training goes any tips i'm all ears.

I did Tri an Mhi last year and was slower than your pace and was nowhere near last out of the water. With another 5 months under your belt between now and then you'll probably be closer to the front than the back !

Lough Lene is a beautiful lake for swimming and the whole event is fantastic. Best of luck to you.

new2tri19 · 31-01-2019 9:54am

Thanks for all the advice lads I actually went ahead and entered the standard distance triathlon on Tri an Mhi as the sprint distance just wasn't making me nervous enough to make it a goal! I'll probably be regretting this come June but F it man what else you going to be doing.

So i've been looking up training plans online but its hard to find anything that fits around what I am doing already , what I currently do I do in the mindset of minimum family disruption as I'm sure most with young kids understand. If anyone would be so kind as to critique my training and tell me what I'm lacking it would be appreciated.

Currently
Monday am 1 hour easy run (12k ish) with running buggy
pm 1 hour zwift workout

Tuesday am 90 mins zwift workout
pm 45 mins yoga

Wednesday am runmute 30 mins (6.5k)
lunch 1000m in pool try do long warmup 500m then 100m*5 faster
pm runmute 30 mins (6.5k)

Thursday am runmute 30 mins (6.5k)
lunch 1000m in pool try do long warmup 500m then 500 fast broken up
pm runmute 30 mins (6.5k) usually do middle of this 2miles tempo

Friday am runmute 30 mins (6.5k)
lunch 1000m in pool try do long warmup 500m then 500 of intervals
pm runmute 30 mins (7.5k) finish this easy run with 10*100 or 5*200 strides

Saturday am Parkrun at tempo pace with buggy around 20 mins , (12k with warm up and cool down)

Sunday am/pm currently trying to do a long run 16K ish easy if time allows , I plan to maybe swap this week on week off with a long bike
thinking 2 hours on zwift or real world (might get more bang for my buck two hours on trainer going hard)

dickidy · 31-01-2019 12:25pm

I'm no expert but that seems a lot

thejaguar · 31-01-2019 12:34pm

No expert either - but I don't really see any rest in there?

On a separate note - related to your swimming - I found the swim smooth site excellent, but it's very easy to overload. A good piece of advice I got was if you're changing or adding anything to your swimming it takes about 6 sessions for it to really bed in - so no point trying something new every week or every session.

TBH - what you're doing is great - that's just something to think about as you start looking at ways to improve.

peter kern · 31-01-2019 12:44pm

you cycle 2 days in a row and them 5 days not ...

yoga session longer than your longest swim day ...

rest looks good for very little time wasted ( in fact i guess with runmutting you are winning time )

joey100 · 31-01-2019 12:48pm

I'd spread the bike session out from Monday evening and then Tuesday morning. Two proper sessions from what you have described and then not back on the bike until an alternate Sunday. If you do your long spin on the bike on Sunday that would mean three days in a row biking and then a 4 day rest before again. Might be better to try 2/3 days between bike sessions, let yourself properly recover.

With your runmute it makes your plan looking very run heavy. I'd have a look at how your going to recover and when. Possibly putting a cycle commute in for a bit of active recovery.

Swim is similar to the bike, 3 days in a row and then not again for 4 days. If possible a swim every 2nd day might better. I'd have a look at lengthening the time in the pool too, 1000m isn't a big session really and with the time cost involved in swimming I'd be looking at probably doing a little more.

But that's all in an ideal world and if they can fit in!

(Peter's points are very similar to mine, wrote at the same time!)

dickidy · 31-01-2019 12:48pm

http://www.220triathlon.com/training/training-plans/2/

I used there 70.3 and it did the job. Worth a look anyway. You are a long way out from your race so I'd say work on technique and don't do to much

new2tri19 · 01-02-2019 9:49am

peter kern wrote: »

you cycle 2 days in a row and them 5 days not ...

yoga session longer than your longest swim day ...

rest looks good for very little time wasted ( in fact i guess with runmutting you are winning time )

Yeah Peter its not ideal , problem is i'm off Monday and Tuesday minding the kids so get very little done them days , Wednesday to Friday I'm at work so choose to run in it would be a short cycle (I could perhaps get up earlier and lengthen it ).

The swimming time is a big problem I only get an hours lunch so by time I get to pool and changed it's 30 mins swim time at best but its an hour I otherwise would of spent doing nothing.

joey100 wrote: »

I'd spread the bike session out from Monday evening and then Tuesday morning. Two proper sessions from what you have described and then not back on the bike until an alternate Sunday. If you do your long spin on the bike on Sunday that would mean three days in a row biking and then a 4 day rest before again. Might be better to try 2/3 days between bike sessions, let yourself properly recover.

With your runmute it makes your plan looking very run heavy. I'd have a look at how your going to recover and when. Possibly putting a cycle commute in for a bit of active recovery.

Swim is similar to the bike, 3 days in a row and then not again for 4 days. If possible a swim every 2nd day might better. I'd have a look at lengthening the time in the pool too, 1000m isn't a big session really and with the time cost involved in swimming I'd be looking at probably doing a little more.

But that's all in an ideal world and if they can fit in!

(Peter's points are very similar to mine, wrote at the same time!)

Thanks Joey , yourself and Peter made good points i'll try mix things around so I'm not running or cycling too many days in a row , the evenings are hard to get anything done as kids have football / GAA / Karate training on most nights .

I think the main thing I need to change is swim time 30 mins 3 times a week is not going to cut it so might have to get up early and get to the pool for an hour at 6am before work .

On the point of rest I actually feel alot fresher now than when I was just running I have been doing the runmute for a couple of years but was only running and running 7 days most weeks with two sessions Tuesday and Thursday on top of commuting , I've cut the running volume down now and its almost all easy running so most days that I run easy are almost like active recovery days.

new2tri19 · 12-02-2019 5:03pm

An update ....... and some questions to those that are in the know!

Managed to swim 1000m non stop on 1st of February very happy 23.57 or 2.23 per 100m ( I was getting tired near the end think the excitement of getting to 1000m made me lose concentration , I was buzzing after this ).

The week after my 1000m swim and the feedback here I hounded my boss and he agreed to let me have a longer lunch break if I start earlier so hopefully I can get closer to an hour in the pool . I wanted to build gradually so did 3 swims of 1500m broken up into warm up and then sets of 100 and 50's , i'm happy with these the 100's are all around 1.58/100m pace and the 50's ~ 1.50/100m pace

My Swimsmooth book arrived 2 days ago and I have been reading as much as I can , lots to take in thanks to the advice here I am going to concentrate on one thing at a time , I feel like I have so much to improve on. My legs are certainly not as high in the water as they could be so I went out today and tried to push my chest into water and swim "downhill" as they say. I just start swimming and tried to keep my legs breaking the surface fluttering , it seemed to work it felt easy so I kept going I was at a pace I felt I could swim forever at and got a pleasant surprise when I did 1000m and checked the watch 22.40 2.16 per 100m pace and it felt so easy.
I felt so fresh I cleaned the goggles off and swam another 1000m straight away I aimed to just swim this one as slow as possible and low and behold came in 22.20 this time 2.13 per 100m pace.

Ok so I wont be going to the olympics yet but theres a good chance I won't embarrass myself in a tri if I can keep improving at this rate till June and beyond.

Couple of questions if I may.

My cadence is 22 strokes per minute according to garmin , that swimsmooth book mentions cadences much much higher like 70 as been ideal , is this going to be a big problem , I see they recommend a metronome thing you wear in your hat to help increase the cadence is it worth it? Also all the toys and the drills they recommend are these going to be necessary if I just want to become a mid pack swimmer?
I don't mind buying them if they are going to be a big help. Can you get the same gains by just swimming freestyle each week and doing interval training ?

Thanks

peter kern · 12-02-2019 5:40pm

new2tri19 wrote: »

An update ....... and some questions to those that are in the know!

Managed to swim 1000m non stop on 1st of February very happy 23.57 or 2.23 per 100m ( I was getting tired near the end think the excitement of getting to 1000m made me lose concentration , I was buzzing after this ).

The week after my 1000m swim and the feedback here I hounded my boss and he agreed to let me have a longer lunch break if I start earlier so hopefully I can get closer to an hour in the pool . I wanted to build gradually so did 3 swims of 1500m broken up into warm up and then sets of 100 and 50's , i'm happy with these the 100's are all around 1.58/100m pace and the 50's ~ 1.50/100m pace

My Swimsmooth book arrived 2 days ago and I have been reading as much as I can , lots to take in thanks to the advice here I am going to concentrate on one thing at a time , I feel like I have so much to improve on. My legs are certainly not as high in the water as they could be so I went out today and tried to push my chest into water and swim "downhill" as they say. I just start swimming and tried to keep my legs breaking the surface fluttering , it seemed to work it felt easy so I kept going I was at a pace I felt I could swim forever at and got a pleasant surprise when I did 1000m and checked the watch 22.40 2.16 per 100m pace and it felt so easy.
I felt so fresh I cleaned the goggles off and swam another 1000m straight away I aimed to just swim this one as slow as possible and low and behold came in 22.20 this time 2.13 per 100m pace.

Ok so I wont be going to the olympics yet but theres a good chance I won't embarrass myself in a tri if I can keep improving at this rate till June and beyond.

Couple of questions if I may.

My cadence is 22 strokes per minute according to garmin , that swimsmooth book mentions cadences much much higher like 70 as been ideal , is this going to be a big problem , I see they recommend a metronome thing you wear in your hat to help increase the cadence is it worth it? Also all the toys and the drills they recommend are these going to be necessary if I just want to become a mid pack swimmer?
I don't mind buying them if they are going to be a big help. Can you get the same gains by just swimming freestyle each week and doing interval training ?

Thanks

the only think i can telly you is I did my first 1000 meter swim in 23 min and i got down to sub 15 by not doing a single drill and pretty much by just doing 1 k tts every time i swam.

so the answer is yes you can go faster . at the same time there is people who dont go anywhere with this approach so the answer is it depends

the issues with drills is if you dont do them right ... so unless you know you do them right ...
so the answer is again depends ( if you go that route i suggest take a couple of 1 2 1 classes so you get an idea and then 6 month later a folow up to be sure you are on the right track )

metronom it also depends i think you get the idea by now lol

your garmin will telly you if you inrese your stroke rate and rember the most important number is do you get faster and fitter

yes 22 is two low but just keep pushing it without geting panicy and it will get up ( or you kick a lot ....)

new2tri19 · 13-02-2019 12:48pm

Cheers Peter that's a fair answer I guess its like running some lads just get there so much quicker without the need for strides or running drills or intervals. Most people will benefit more from just running mileage. I was thinking along them lines alright but then again swimming is very technical , maybe these faults I have will iron themselves out the more I swim.

That is very impressive peter to get down to sub 15 for 1000m well done , do you mind me asking how long it took you?
What would be an equivalent time in swimming to running say a sub 20 min 5k ?

Kurt.Godel · 13-02-2019 1:04pm

new2tri19 wrote: »

Cheers Peter that's a fair answer I guess its like running some lads just get there so much quicker without the need for strides or running drills or intervals. Most people will benefit more from just running mileage. I was thinking along them lines alright but then again swimming is very technical , maybe these faults I have will iron themselves out the more I swim.

As Peter says "it depends"... whatever works for one might not work for another. For the sake of alternative, the more "classic" way to get faster for 1,000m+ would be to swim sets of 100m, rather than sets of 1,000m. Stroke faults can become enhanced as distance progresses and the body tires, so taking a short rest after each 100m can help to reset good form for each rep (so you end up swimming a greater distance with good form which then becomes habit quicker). The fact that you are swimming 1,000m faster when you are aiming to stay relaxed throughout, shows just what a limiter bad form can be when tired (in that you stayed relaxed and didn't feel so tired, and ended up faster).

There's more than one way to skin a cat, but from what you've posted to date I'd say you are doing everything right- you are getting faster and seem to be enjoying the process. Since you can swim a straight 1,000m at 2:13/100m pace, and you do sets of 100m at 1:58 pace, a good exercise might be to try a set of 10*100m aiming to come in around 2mins, and taking a 5s break in between each (in swimming terms 10*100 on 2:05).

new2tri19 · 13-02-2019 3:40pm

Cheers Kurt , Im just back from the pool and had an attempt at 10*100 off 5 seconds , i think the 2k i swam yesterday was still in my arms , 500 warm up at 2:10/100m felt controlled and easy but shoulders and triceps area a little tired.
There was a guy in the lane bombing up and down so had to wait 15 seconds for the first rest that kinda set the tone for the rest i was tired and trying to keep out of others way and keep ahead of swimmers behind so the rest ended up been 20-30seconds . I was thinking 5 secs must be a typo ! you’d never run 400m repeats off 5 seconds but that was wishful thinking !

Anyway i said ill keep the pace honest at least so swam them comfortably hard always conscious of if i can’t manage one more i’m going too hard.
pace was 1:55 fastest to 1:58! slowest all in that range .

I feel like i’m losing a good bit of time at the wall turning need to work on this i’m always half a stroke away and for some reason in can only touch wall with right hand pull my self a bit towards wall turn and kick off , noticed people in lane beside id he keeping pace or catching them then at wall they have pulled away and they weren’t even tumble turning .

100* 10 off 2 is the goal i won’t stop till i’m there!
500 cool down felt amazing practiced a few things i’d been reading didn’t want to get out of the pool

Kurt.Godel · 13-02-2019 4:21pm

I don't know what others think, but personally I don't believe in much crossover between run and swim training (regards reps, rest, endurance, etc.)

new2tri19 wrote: »

I feel like i’m losing a good bit of time at the wall turning need to work on this i’m always half a stroke away and for some reason in can only touch wall with right hand pull my self a bit towards wall turn and kick off , noticed people in lane beside id he keeping pace or catching them then at wall they have pulled away and they weren’t even tumble turning .

Elbow your brother, call your mother The glorious Chloe Sutton

new2tri19 · 13-02-2019 4:35pm

Kurt.Godel wrote: »

Elbow your brother, call your mother The glorious Chloe Sutton

cool thanks i’ll practice this when pool is quiet some night so i don’t end up elbowing another swimmer !

peter kern · 13-02-2019 5:15pm

new2tri19 wrote: »

Cheers Peter that's a fair answer I guess its like running some lads just get there so much quicker without the need for strides or running drills or intervals. Most people will benefit more from just running mileage. I was thinking along them lines alright but then again swimming is very technical , maybe these faults I have will iron themselves out the more I swim.

That is very impressive peter to get down to sub 15 for 1000m well done , do you mind me asking how long it took you?
What would be an equivalent time in swimming to running say a sub 20 min 5k ?

IN a way its irrelevant how long it took me ( approx 3 years ) what is relevant is that i got there with an attitude that iam going to achieve that goal ( and as kurt says by far not the smaertest way )

but one example 50 % of my swimmers are as taletned or more talented for tumble turning as or than myself - its something that cost me 3 month blood sweat and tears of my life but not even 10 % have the drive to do it .

whats also impoertant is that there will be many platoos you have to overcome.
i would say 17.30 for 1000 m would be aobut 20 min for 5 k (its not quite as easy to compare and it should really be a bit lower than 17.30.

and yes re faults... if you are aware of them will iron themselves out with training . the issue can be the faults you are not aware off . or when what you think you do is not what you do .

at the same time doing drills when you are not aware off why you are doing that drill is not that great either... many people practise bad drills ...

I rember working under a coach that has produced a world champ. I gave one guy a techical advise he got mad at me shouting those guys are not fit i want them to get fit first ( which was correct they were 13. min swimmers for 1000 m but not fit )
and i could also tell you there is another coach that has produced an olympic medalist that had his people look like michelin man with all the toys while doing drills

some people got better resutls with coach a some better results with coach b both were coaches at top level.

I guess this is as much you can be given over the internet without somebody seeing you swimming

if you are an adventoures type ( and you have from what i read a good understadning of running ) dont be afraid to go it alone.

if you like the guidance go for it ( but find good one)

or you could do something in the middle as i mention before do a couple of 1 2 1ones and then follow up every so often.
the most important thing this is a long road so be patient and dont work like crasy in the first 2 years and then burn out when it really matters.

ie it just takes 4 to 5 years for most to become good .

and even if you dont get good at it , one almost always feels better for it once its done ...

new2tri19 · 21-02-2019 9:17pm

Thanks for great responses guys , I'm still at it , looking at youtube videos and I bought all the pool toys (although haven't used them yet) .
I'm feeling more confident in the water getting a feel for the high elbow and the catch . Sometimes I overwhelm myself with too much information then go to the pool and find it hard to put it all together. I don't know how you faster guys go to the pool because I am finding it frustrating so many slow people in the fast lanes and I am not even fast. I think I am probably looking down too much in the water as I have started hitting peoples toes in front of me , I see the bubbles they are leaving behind but am unsure of how near exactly I am to there feet as I look straight down , my legs seem to sink if I start looking forward at all.

I suck at turns still I have tried the open turns as per the elbow your brother drill but I still suck so have gone back to touching the wall turning and kicking off . Is kicking off cheating myself as I won't be able to kick off in a race ? But then again I am losing lots of time turning .

I'm dropping the rest time on the 100's down to 15 seconds now and 10 seconds for the 50's , I have gotten a bit quicker down to 1.55 per 100m and 1.52 per 50m , today I did a 150m at 1.55 pace then a 250m at 1.55 pace , my cadence is still terrible 22 strokes per minute average for the 50's/100's and 250's I think I must be overgliding pretty bad so my assumption is I'm going forward just by pulling harder in the water ?
I spoke to a triathlete in the pool and he told me biggest thing holding me back is I'm too lean at 5'11 62kg he said I'll never swim fast unless I bulk up and hit the gym . I am unsure of this but I do notice that most triathletes are bulkier than your average runner . For me the limiting factor seems to be cadence , I'm thinking if i can start doing 30 strokes a minute instead of 22 but keep the same power then i'll be a lot faster. My strokes per length have come down from 12 to 10 strokes per length which again probably means I am over-gliding.

The big question I have is how do you swim a set time ? I see plans that say swim 100's at 2 mins , do you guys check your watch after each 25m? I have no idea what pace I'm done till I stop the watch at the end . I have tried checking my watch as I glide from wall at turn but turning my hand to read my watch is like putting the brakes on underwater.

So coming up to 3 months swimming do I just need to keep going as I am going or is the 22 spm a big problem that needs to be addressed by a coach? Oh and I have tried speeding up my arms and managed to get them up to 28 spm for a 50 but what my legs went kicktastic I couldnt seem to keep my legs kicking at normal flutter kick speed while increasing the arm speed and the net result was I was gassed from kicking more so than arms.

Thanks

fletch · 22-02-2019 2:09pm

new2tri19 wrote: »

I suck at turns still I have tried the open turns as per the elbow your brother drill but I still suck so have gone back to touching the wall turning and kicking off .

Tumble turns aren't allowed in any pool based triathlons (that I know of anyway) so I wouldn't worry too much about them...I can't really do them well either but I'm not that bothered...they won't be of any use if an OW swim. They do stop you getting a big breath at the wall though which of course you can't do in a continuous OW swim so eventually it would be good to get the hang of them.

new2tri19 wrote: »

I spoke to a triathlete in the pool and he told me biggest thing holding me back is I'm too lean at 5'11 62kg he said I'll never swim fast unless I bulk up and hit the gym . I am unsure of this but I do notice that most triathletes are bulkier than your average runner .

I don't really know how much truth there is in that. I would describe myself as skinny, yet am one of the faster(est) swimmers in my tri club now. About 2 years ago, I would have been swimming similar times to yourself and I don't think I've put on any weight since then yet I'm faster. I do have a little bit more definition on top, but I'm by no stretch muscly.

new2tri19 wrote: »

The big question I have is how do you swim a set time ? I see plans that say swim 100's at 2 mins , do you guys check your watch after each 25m?

I presume the plan is saying to swim 100m every 2 mins? So if you arrive back at the wall at 1'50", you get 10 seconds rest. If you arrive back at the wall at 1'55", you get 5 seconds rest. Obviously the faster you swim, the more rest you will get and the slower you swim, the less rest. As to how you know how fast you're swimming in realtime, I suppose this only really comes with experience and knowing the effort required to hit a certain pace. Sometimes, if I am doing longer sets, >=200m, I will glance at my watch as I turn on the first 100 to see how I'm doing.

thejaguar · 25-02-2019 11:47am

new2tri19 wrote: »

For me the limiting factor seems to be cadence , I'm thinking if i can start doing 30 strokes a minute instead of 22 but keep the same power then i'll be a lot faster. My strokes per length have come down from 12 to 10 strokes per length which again probably means I am over-gliding.

.
.
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So coming up to 3 months swimming do I just need to keep going as I am going or is the 22 spm a big problem that needs to be addressed by a coach? Oh and I have tried speeding up my arms and managed to get them up to 28 spm for a 50 but what my legs went kicktastic I couldnt seem to keep my legs kicking at normal flutter kick speed while increasing the arm speed and the net result was I was gassed from kicking more so than arms.

Thanks

Swimsmooth have some good articles about cadence - although I think they ultimately rely on a "wetronome" to help improve it.

10 to 12 stokes per length is very low in terms of cadence. If you could speed that up without compromising form I'd expect to see some real improvement in times.

mrpdap · 25-02-2019 11:52am

Hi OP, I haven’t read every post but it’s essential to get some open water swimming done before you race. Its v different to swimming in a pool.
Best of luck with it all.

thesimpsons · 01-03-2019 11:25am

My last tri, the guy behind me coming out of the water by a few minutes, beat me across the finish line as he had a brilliant run. My run is woeful but my cycle time pulled me up the ranks. They are separate 3 sports, plus 2 transitions, to get right.

My word of advice is get out on the bike for some real world cycling. Get used to bike handling in wind & rain (a good irish summers day ðŸ˜‚) , cornering, pothole avoidance, etc. Real time on the road is often forgotten about in training but its nothing like smart trainers.

Enjoy. Its a great feeling when u finish ur first tri and think - "I am bloody awesome, when can I do it again" (and thats from someone who is often one of the last across the line). Its a great personal achievement.

thejaguar · 01-03-2019 11:53am

thesimpsons wrote: »

My last tri, the guy behind me coming out of the water by a few minutes, beat me across the finish line as he had a brilliant run. My run is woeful but my cycle time pulled me up the ranks. They are separate 3 sports, plus 2 transitions, to get right.

This is a good point. You can spend hours and half a year knocking 3 minutes off your swim time - then spend 4 minutes in each transition arsing around...

I've seen lads sitting down drying their toes to put their socks on - then sprinting out of transition.

new2tri19 · 13-03-2019 8:28pm

Thanks for all the good advice lads , i’ve taken most of it on board and am now mixing my commute alternating bike and run so it’s not so concentrate on one discipline day after day .

In regards the swimming I had a bit of a rough week or two a few weeks ago where i was over concerned with times and my watch that i wasn’t enjoying the swims as much and my form was getting worse . Had a little chat with myself and got back to basics of doing the right things did all the drills in the swim smooth book and i’m now really happy with my stroke . I haven’t been using my watch just have it on clockface mode but am still recording data that i check later.
I bought the terraband and have been mixing in dry land training also .

In regards my stroke it feels so much easier my legs are doing a lot less than previously and i’m never out of breath , the only problem now is i go the pool jump in and swim for an hour or so and just feel totally relaxed get out and don’t even feel like i’ve done any exercise, im finding it hard to push myself !! if that’s a problem , my all day pace now is around 2:03-2:08 per 100m i suppose the danger is i plateau at this pace , I did a hard 100 time trial today in 1:35 . As my technique improves is it possible that i get down to 1:30-1:40 per 100m perpetual speed with the same kind of zero effort swimming or is everyone swimming them speeds actually putting out a decent effort in the pool?

I’m also pretty nervous about swimming in open water , what month do people generally start to venture outdoors ? thanks again

thejaguar · 14-03-2019 10:38am

new2tri19 wrote: »

As my technique improves is it possible that i get down to 1:30-1:40 per 100m perpetual speed with the same kind of zero effort swimming

Yes, with training - but it would mean a lot of hard effort between now and then.

new2tri19 wrote: »

I’m also pretty nervous about swimming in open water , what month do people generally start to venture outdoors ? thanks again

With a wetsuit, no reason you can't jump in now. Ease yourself in. Don't worry about distance for now - it's quite different to the pool. Aim to enjoy it and increase the time spent swimming. Use the pool for technique/distance/drills.

At least, that's what I do.

peter kern · 14-03-2019 10:50am

If I don't put effort in my swim I swim slow.... Which is not necessarily a bad thing. But this is where swimming is different with running even as a beginner you need more intervals to improve
At the same time a 1.35 100 m tt showsyou have good speed. But you need to swim much more at an effort where you feel you need to focus to hold that effort ( and don't worry to much about times record them but don't look at it in training focus or rpe.
No smart pain no gain.

new2tri19 wrote: »

Thanks for all the good advice lads , i’ve taken most of it on board and am now mixing my commute alternating bike and run so it’s not so concentrate on one discipline day after day .

In regards the swimming I had a bit of a rough week or two a few weeks ago where i was over concerned with times and my watch that i wasn’t enjoying the swims as much and my form was getting worse . Had a little chat with myself and got back to basics of doing the right things did all the drills in the swim smooth book and i’m now really happy with my stroke . I haven’t been using my watch just have it on clockface mode but am still recording data that i check later.
I bought the terraband and have been mixing in dry land training also .

In regards my stroke it feels so much easier my legs are doing a lot less than previously and i’m never out of breath , the only problem now is i go the pool jump in and swim for an hour or so and just feel totally relaxed get out and don’t even feel like i’ve done any exercise, im finding it hard to push myself !! if that’s a problem , my all day pace now is around 2:03-2:08 per 100m i suppose the danger is i plateau at this pace , I did a hard 100 time trial today in 1:35 . As my technique improves is it possible that i get down to 1:30-1:40 per 100m perpetual speed with the same kind of zero effort swimming or is everyone swimming them speeds actually putting out a decent effort in the pool?

I’m also pretty nervous about swimming in open water , what month do people generally start to venture outdoors ? thanks again

new2tri19 · 15-06-2019 9:34pm

Thanks for the advice here folks , did my first triathlon today the advice here certainly helped. Training faded a bit as i’ve a newborn at home and I was burning out . The wetsuit swims are slower than my pool swims I find the wetsuit restrictive it’s a cheap wetsuit and I used a cheap stand road bike didn’t want to invest in a TT bike just yet .

Really enjoyed it I wasn’t last out of the water , did the olympic distance tri an mhi swim time 35 flat garmin says i swam further but gps could be off .
Getting out of wetsuit was tough as was getting on bike cold and wet , should have opted for longer sleeves , didn’t eat at all and only a small breakfast , should have fuelled better but never comprehended how long it would all take , I was very green not enough bricks and long bike rides . Died a lot on run the legs just hasn’t got it , bike time was 73 mins and run time 45 giving me 2:40 finish .
Have the bug now and will try train a bit more cleverer going forward , thanks again for advice and good luck in your races . I may frequent this place more often next up a full ironman i think

TiggerC · 26-07-2019 12:07pm

new2tri19 wrote: »

Thanks for the advice here folks , did my first triathlon today the advice here certainly helped. Training faded a bit as i’ve a newborn at home and I was burning out . The wetsuit swims are slower than my pool swims I find the wetsuit restrictive it’s a cheap wetsuit and I used a cheap stand road bike didn’t want to invest in a TT bike just yet .

Really enjoyed it I wasn’t last out of the water , did the olympic distance tri an mhi swim time 35 flat garmin says i swam further but gps could be off .
Getting out of wetsuit was tough as was getting on bike cold and wet , should have opted for longer sleeves , didn’t eat at all and only a small breakfast , should have fuelled better but never comprehended how long it would all take , I was very green not enough bricks and long bike rides . Died a lot on run the legs just hasn’t got it , bike time was 73 mins and run time 45 giving me 2:40 finish .
Have the bug now and will try train a bit more cleverer going forward , thanks again for advice and good luck in your races . I may frequent this place more often next up a full ironman i think

Well done! Sounds like how I started. Only a few steps back with a try a tri, took two years to move to Olympic distance Ha ha
If you’ve got the bug and want to move forward at a more realistic rate with better structure to your training, goal setting and race planning, I’d recommend a coach. Best thing I ever did and he understands my time constrains with a young family, work and general life. It takes the guesswork out of it and believe it I actually train less, I’m not slogging aimlessly.

MojoMaker · 26-07-2019 1:02pm

73 mins bike and a 45 run off the bike ain't bad at all for someone starting out, in fact a lot better than ain't bad!

new2tri19 · 01-09-2019 9:34am

TiggerC wrote: »

Well done! Sounds like how I started. Only a few steps back with a try a tri, took two years to move to Olympic distance Ha ha
If you’ve got the bug and want to move forward at a more realistic rate with better structure to your training, goal setting and race planning, I’d recommend a coach. Best thing I ever did and he understands my time constrains with a young family, work and general life. It takes the guesswork out of it and believe it I actually train less, I’m not slogging aimlessly.

I'd love to get a coach but at the moment I'm so busy and have to miss alot of planned sessions I don't want to waste the coaches time. When things get a bit easier at home and I have more structure its something I will definitely consider.

My swimming has improved significantly , I'm now doing my 100 repeats at about 1.40 pace I just need to translate that to wetsuit swims better although in fairness ive not been in wetsuit much at all.

I need to consider a tri bike next as all the top lads finishing seem to be on them. Entered a sprint triathlon last month and finished in 1hour 14 which I'm happy with means its less than half the olympic time I did so some improvements there. Next year going to take on a Hardman Killarney full ironamn so i'll start a a training log here so people can see what not to do

new2tri19 · 24-10-2019 5:41pm

I'm still swimming plugging away 3 days a week in the pool on my own trying to improve. It's difficult to find the motivation sometimes but i'm sticking with it , swimming about 10 months now and I said to myself at the start i'll judge myself after a year.

I'm just a little bit lost on my training now , I've looked up plans online and tried to make some sort of plan in such that I'm not just going to the pool and doing nothing structured .
Generally I do a 500 warm up , 5 x 50m of some kind of drill (one arm swimming or paddles or closed fist swimming)
I then do 6*100m going on 2 minutes
2 minute rest and then 2 * 200m going on 4 minutes .

My paces are coming down each week/month , at the moment I can do the 100's at 1.35-1.38 and the 200's at 1.40-1.42 pace.
My cool down and warm up would be 1.50-1.55 pace and this would feel very relaxed.
I want to do a half and full ironman next year , do I keep going as I am or reduce rest or increase distance? Should I sack of the intervals and just keep doing 1900m non stop as fast as possible to get me ready for a half ironman.

Last thing is my stroke rate is still very low Garmin measures it at 24 strokes per minute (single hand ) so about 48 strokes per minute but guys like effortless swimming on youtube are advising above 65 strokes , I do have great feel for the water and my arm feels anchored and pulling alot of water back so much so that I struggle to get my arm out of the water any quicker to increase rate.

Thanks

peter kern · 25-10-2019 11:22am

6 x 100 is just not enough you need to built that up to to triple 18x 100s or something like that

you need vo2 set week plus tempo set each week so find out what that is and your session should be an hour
your other session you could aliterate week long interervls ^600 plus or "drills" with shore 25 sprints

also don't rush with the full build up the yers first

EC1000 · 25-10-2019 1:29pm

peter kern wrote: »

also don't rush with the full build up the years first

Definitely agree with this. It's about the journey and forming good lifestyle habits. Don't be in too much of a rush.

dickidy · 25-10-2019 1:51pm

you have dropped more time in 1 year then i have in 4 so i will be following what the lads say myself. ive nocked maybe on average 15 sec off my 200s but i am going further.
i shall follow with interest

new2tri19 · 25-10-2019 8:36pm

peter kern wrote: »

6 x 100 is just not enough you need to built that up to to triple 18x 100s or something like that

you need vo2 set week plus tempo set each week so find out what that is and your session should be an hour
your other session you could aliterate week long interervls ^600 plus or "drills" with shore 25 sprints

also don't rush with the full build up the yers first

Thanks got to read this before my pool swim today ,was very tired hitting pool legs heavy from bike but did 18*100m going on 2 mins ,I aimed to come in at 1:45-1:48 range and was feeling it swam hard last two days so took a minute rest after 9 sets of 100m .

Thanks for that advice have a renewed focus now 18*100 ,I suppose I could do 9*200 aswell or 4*450 once I'm getting about 1800-2000 worth of work .

Is there any calculators online for tempo pace v02 max pace for swimming ? I found a calculator for css pace I'm guessing that could be my tempo once I do a 200 and 400 time trial .

Swimming is hard mentally to keep the discipline of going on exactly 2 mins when your body is crying out for an extra couple of seconds , I wonder will I reach my ceiling potential training solo soon as I start to feel I need someone else there to hold me accountable ,lots of negative thoughts of not finishing the 18*100 today, disappointed with myself taking a minute rest after 9 , need to toughen up if I'm going to get better .

new2tri19 · 25-10-2019 8:47pm

dickidy wrote: »

you have dropped more time in 1 year then i have in 4 so i will be following what the lads say myself. ive nocked maybe on average 15 sec off my 200s but i am going further.
i shall follow with interest

I try get to the pool 3 times a week , some weeks I have only managed one swim . I got stretch chords for days I don't make the pool. I will lie on a modified bench I made and simulate almost the full stroke , I do this for about 20-30 mins , I modified a piece of timber onto a hand paddle that stops my wrist from bending and I just repeat the same stroke about 1000 times counting the strokes making sure each stroke is perfect , these are hard and muscularly I feel like I've had a hard swim . If I miss a week of pool and just do these stretch chords I don't feel like I've lost swim ability.

griffin100 · 26-10-2019 9:33pm

new2tri19 wrote: »

Thanks got to read this before my pool swim today ,was very tired hitting pool legs heavy from bike but did 18*100m going on 2 mins ,I aimed to come in at 1:45-1:48 range and was feeling it swam hard last two days so took a minute rest after 9 sets of 100m .

Thanks for that advice have a renewed focus now 18*100 ,I suppose I could do 9*200 aswell or 4*450 once I'm getting about 1800-2000 worth of work .

Is there any calculators online for tempo pace v02 max pace for swimming ? I found a calculator for css pace I'm guessing that could be my tempo once I do a 200 and 400 time trial .

Swimming is hard mentally to keep the discipline of going on exactly 2 mins when your body is crying out for an extra couple of seconds , I wonder will I reach my ceiling potential training solo soon as I start to feel I need someone else there to hold me accountable ,lots of negative thoughts of not finishing the 18*100 today, disappointed with myself taking a minute rest after 9 , need to toughen up if I'm going to get better .

My 2c...........

If you’re worried about reps before you get to them then you’re not concentrating on your stroke enough

Seriously though, think about the rep you’re on, not what’s to come. Concentrate on your stroke, body position, etc. and you won’t be worried about anything else. This is a good habit to get into as when you start upping distances in the pool or OW the last thing you want to be thinking at the start of the set is ‘will I finish.’ It’s somerhing I have to work on myself even after years of swimming, especially on a set like 400m x 10 or a long OW race.

You should also mix up your sets. 100’s are great but consider 2,3 and even 400’s.

One of my favourite short sets is 100 x 4 / 300 x 4 / 100 x 4. Given your current pace swim all 8 of the 100’s off 1.50 and the 300’s off 6 mins - don’t take a break. You’ll be struggling for the last 100’s

Also consider doing sets of 5- 10 x 100 off less than two minutes.

You can also try what my kids all an alpine set - 100 / 100 / 100 / 200 / 100 / 300 / 100 / 400 / 100 / 300 / 100 / 200 / 100 / 100 - swimming the 100’s flat out and the entire set off 2 minutes per 100.

You’ve gotta keep it interesting.

new2tri19 · 27-10-2019 10:18am

griffin100 wrote: »

My 2c...........

If you’re worried about reps before you get to them then you’re not concentrating on your stroke enough Seriously though, think about the rep you’re on, not what’s to come. Concentrate on your stroke, body position, etc. and you won’t be worried about anything else. This is a good habit to get into as when you start upping distances in the pool or OW the last thing you want to be thinking at the start of the set is ‘will I finish.’ It’s somerhing I have to work on myself even after years of swimming, especially on a set like 400m x 10 or a long OW race.

You should also mix up your sets. 100’s are great but consider 2,3 and even 400’s.

One of my favourite short sets is 100 x 4 / 300 x 4 / 100 x 4. Given your current pace swim all 8 of the 100’s off 1.50 and the 300’s off 6 mins - don’t take a break. You’ll be struggling for the last 100’s

Also consider doing sets of 5- 10 x 100 off less than two minutes.

You can also try what my kids all an alpine set - 100 / 100 / 100 / 200 / 100 / 300 / 100 / 400 / 100 / 300 / 100 / 200 / 100 / 100 - swimming the 100’s flat out and the entire set off 2 minutes per 100.

You’ve gotta keep it interesting.

Thank you that's interesting stuff there , 400*10 :eek: now that would put the fear in me , I suppose it depends on how fast you are doing them . My longest pool swim is 3000m wasn't continuous but I was in bits for days with sinus problems after it .

That's another thing I'm starting to struggle with my nose seems to be blocked for a couple of days after swimming . I have read about nose clips but I exhale through nose so that doesn't seem to make sense.

On hard 200's I often lose count with the reps when I'm pushing hard its amazing how hard it can be to count to 8 lengths of the pool. I'm not so much avoiding longer reps its just at lunch time in the pool there are two fast lanes and doing long reps is very hard because inevitably people start getting in your way , nothing more annoying like on Thursday when some guy kept going ahead of me in fast lane just as I was coming into wall to turn and he sets off doing breast stroke

like he could see I was coming into the wall to turn and clearly moving much faster than he planned on moving , once i can understand but he then repeatedly did it and also kicked me in the side as I passed doing his scissor kick motion

, anyway I guess its a learning curve.

I'll try them sets that alpine set looks like murder.
I'm a little confused on the 300*4 in your favourite set , you say don't take a rest , so why not just say swim 1200 at 2min pace ( which seems like it would be fairly easy tbh ) or is it a case of just stopping for a second or 2 to check pace and continue.

Thanks

griffin100 · 27-10-2019 9:54pm

On the set when I say don’t take a rest between the 100s and 200s what I mean is go straight from the 100’s to the 200’s and back to the 100’s on the interval times. So 1.50 after you start your 4th 100 you will start your first 300, and 6 minutes after you start your final 300 you will start your final set of 100s and swim these off 1.50.

The faster you swim your 100’s and 300’s the more rest you get, but the quicker you fatigue. If done right you will be hanging on the last couple of 100’s. If the set is too easy lower the interval times.

On the sinus thing fill a squeezy water bottle with clean water and after your swim squirt the clean fresh water up your nostril until it runs down the back of your throat. Do this to both nostrils. It cleans the chlorine out. If this doesn’t fix the problem then follow this up with a squirt of flixonase (you can get this a chemist) into each nostril.

new2tri19 · 30-10-2019 2:34pm

You guys making me work hard arms hanging now but love it

Did 350 warm up
5 x 50 drills closed fist
5*50 sprints 1:30 pace average

Full Alpine set up to 100/400 then back
Did it all off 2 mins
100 fast 1:38-1:42
Slow 100/200/300/400's all 1:52

2 mins rest
5 x 100 off 2 hard coming in at 1:35

I had no more time for cool down
Total swim 3650m longest ever in pool but went by fast as had target , I probably won't be able to swim hard again tomorrow

new2tri19 · 14-11-2019 3:04pm

griffin100 wrote: »

My 2c...........

If you’re worried about reps before you get to them then you’re not concentrating on your stroke enough Seriously though, think about the rep you’re on, not what’s to come. Concentrate on your stroke, body position, etc. and you won’t be worried about anything else.

This has made a huge difference , my stroke and breathing was all over the shop when I was doing the fast stuff as I was trying to get the reps done "hard" and on time. I had a bit of a breakthrough moment when getting to the pool did my 500m warm up easy at 1.43 pace , this is not far off my interval pace but it felt slow.

I've been working hard on the drills and not looking at the watch so much the net result is reps are getting quicker , I indentfied a flaw in my stroke from watching a youtube video and realising I was dropping the leading arm , I seem to have corrected this but it requires a concious effort during the swim .
My stroke rate has come down slightly as I spend more time out front with my lead arm but my speed has come up so its a headscrather ,I don't feel like i'm overglidng but notice as I swim beside someone in next lane I take about half the strokes they do but I generally am going past them and not vice versa , so maybe I should not worry about it so much .

new2tri19 · 07-01-2020 12:24pm

I suppose I'll update this even if just talking to myself ! but when I started swimming just over a year ago and couldn't do 1 length of a 25m pool I googled lots of "how long will it take to get good or to swim x distance " etc. So this may help someone else looking to start out swimming. I wouldn't say I am a fast learner and my coordination kinda sucks but I've stuck at it.

The main thing is to stick at it , there was multiple times in the early days where I flung the goggles in the bag and thought I'm never going to be able to do a triathlon and I'll just go back to running and try do sub 3 etc and forget this.

Swimming is hard in so far as you can have a good day then the next day you get in and you just feel awful your coughing against the wall , swallowing water etc feeling totally uncoordinated out of your depth and in the way of the fast swimmers. You can grit your teeth and try work harder but often you end up fighting the water and getting worse / going slower.

If you can get to the pool at a quiet time and relax and just practice simple things like "sink downs" and just slow everything right down it really helps , going to the pool at peak times I found harder.

It's all about technique and in my spare time I've read the swim smooth book and watched literally 100's of YouTube videos (effortless swimming is a good channel) but its important not to try correct everything at once , so I try split it up and concentrate on different things each length .

Just keep turning up and the more you swim the better a feel you will get for the water , try not judge yourself after each swim . I'm still along way off where I want to be and I might get in the pool today and find out I've regressed and the improvements have certainly not been linear , but over time my times have come down just by getting to the pool 3 times a week .

I remember the early days 100's coming in at 2 mins was hard work and I would be delighted to hit the wall and see I swam a 1.59 per 100m and I'd be hanging against the wall out of breath now an easy warm up 600m for me would be in 1.48 range and I doubt my cardio is that much better now , my technique has just improved , I do think its a good idea to ignore the watch during the first few months , I was guilty of been disappointed with slower swims early on.

I think its important to keep pushing yourself , I got great advice in this thread but I've gradually increased the reps and the distance on my swim sets , I used to swim 1000m and get out of the pool , I moved that up to 2000m over the course of a couple of months and now I swim mostly 3000-4000m per swim , I am looking to increase that to 5000-6000m per swim over 2020.

Short rest is something that swimmers seem to have to get used to I found the short rest really hard at the start , going on 2 when you get in at 1.50 now I am more prepared its not like running where you stand around and get your breath back , you literally stop take a quick drink ( oh yeah bring a drink ! it helped me loads I think I was getting dehydrated and not realizing at sets of over 2000m) and go again.

I do my 100's @ 1.35 now / 200's around 1.38 / 400's around 1.41 pace theres still a big drop off in times , I can't bilateral breath efficiently yet without looking like i'm about to drown , I can't tumble turn ( haven't tried to learn) .
At the end of 2020 I will be doing 1.25 per 100 / 1.28 for 200m and 1.31 for 400m , I'm going to keep at it till I'm there thats why I say WILL , back yourself .

On days I don't swim I do stretch chords and bought a pull up bar a couple of months ago , couldn't do 1 complete pull up at the start and now at 3 sets of 10 , I'm not sure if this helps swimming but I've read it does.

Anyway I realize my times are still laughable compared to most here but just posting this in case it helps anyone starting out , some great advice given in thread already , oh and I've read the pull buoy debates and I think they are good if it only means you get more time in the water that you wouldn't have otherwise , if your too tired and can do an extra 500m with a pull buoy it has to be of benefit IMO getting that extra feel for the water . I've used them frequently .

peter kern · 07-01-2020 10:58pm

this is already a solid tri swim level and i guess on boards your are in the top 30 -35 %

very good work

First Tri

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